Troops returning from Helmand pay for own flights

[Dogwatch]

Troops returning from Helmand pay for own flights

Interesting article;

Troops returning from Helmand pay for own flights - Telegraph (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/asia/afghanistan/7945725/Troops-returning-from-Helmand-pay-for-own-flights.html)

[12 twists per inch]

Yup, done that myself from an Emirati country (my choice as didn't want to wait).....and got a major bollocking for it too. :mad: However a few nice beers seemed to placate the cost! and seeing the kids sooner than later was worth it.

[Tyres O'Flaherty]

Speaking as a Civ. Mightily angry about this. Lost for words. None of you should be paying to travel. Unbelievable

[Thelma Viaduct]

'govern'ment & politicians in general are scum

[Mr C Hinecap]

None of you should be paying to travel.

We don't have to. They chose to.

Anyway - R&R will go soon anyway so no point getting upset over a few delayed flights. The impact to ops, rather than anything else, is the criminal neglect here.

[GlobalTravellerAT]

Working across the airfield and inter sqn rivalry aside I can honestly say that I feel sorry for the tri motor guys. Only able to operate with what the government provides them with, must be terrible to be universally hated by the green and dark blue forces when they just want to provide a service for hard working boys and girls to be able to see their loved ones.

All that aside, 99 sqn are the weapon of choice when I comes to getting there and back.

[Jimlad1]

When I arrived in HERRICK (albeit after a 4 day 3 Tristar marathon), on my RSOI I was told that there had been a minor change in policy, and that your 14 day R&R allocation started from the moment you landed at Brize, and not when you left KAF. As such delays in Cyprus shouldnt count towards your R&R.

If I were to sound very harsh, I'd say that I have no sympathy with those troops buying flights home and then complaining about it. Its made clear to all that R&R is a privilege and not a right, and that the Tri* fleet is knackered. Everyone knows you'll be screwed around getting to/from theatre, but thats life in theatre for you. We're not the only country to have these problems, my US colleagues have given me tales of getting back from Bagram which makes the Tri* fleet look like sheer perfection by comparison.

Ultimately the RAF will get you home and you will get leave. If you choose to short circuit the process, then thats your decision, but don't got whinging to the bloody media because of it. It won't change anything, and just does more damage and morale sapping to the 216 Guys who are working their socks off to keep us getting to/from theatre (and I say this as a matelot).

[fincastle84]

Ultimately the RAF will get you home and you will get leave. If you choose to short circuit the process, then thats your decision, but don't got whinging to the bloody media because of it. It won't change anything, and just does more damage and morale sapping to the 216 Guys who are working their socks off

I think that this is rather harsh. The whole point of the article is to point out the effect of the morale sapping delays on the morale of the troops (the 2nd principle of war). No one is blaming the aircrew as any sane individual understands that the state of the equipment is the sole responsibility of the useless politicians.

[Jimlad1]

Fincastle, in my normal day job I am one of those 85,000 'useless' civil servants. If you had the faintest idea what the MOD CS does, rather than believing the daily mail, then you probably wouldnt say that. Contrary to MAILINT, the MOD CS is not solely responsible for the years of delay to getting a new airbridge in. Nor do a bunch of anonymous 'Sir humphries' sit there, cackling as they work out that the best way to screw the troops on the front line is to scrap the Tri* replacement. Try looking to the planning rounds (run by the military) and the desire to field new fighters. Blame the chancellor (then Mr G Brown) and accept that delays happen because the air force chose to prioritise their purchases towards fast jets, not because they are told by the MOD CS what they were allowed to buy.

Go and do some very basic research on the MOD and you'll find quickly that the vast majority of the CS are the labourers, odd job handymen, admin support staff, security guards and so on who exist to support the front line. You'd also find that at anyone time a couple of hundred CS are in Afghanistan working with the forces, and being subjected to the same airbridge problems as everyone else (been there, done that too).

Stop blaming an entire organisation of people who are far more committed than you seem to think for the failings of the politicans.

If I sound grumpy and like I've bitten, its because nothing annoys me more than watching ill informed spectators taking cheap shots at an organisation whose members are made out in the media to be pure scum and looked on with the same contempt held for child molestors, simply because they joined the MOD civil service. Sure there are bad eggs out there, but 99% of people are fine and care passionately about Defence and helping the armed forces do their job. People here would rightly go ballistic if I called all 42,000 members of the airforce utterly useless for the same reason.

(Rant over).

[Neptunus Rex]

Deliverance
Your proposed 4 month tours would increase the transport burden by 50%, rather than reduce it.
Now - have you ever spent six months in a hostile environment, away from your family, local pub and other home comforts? I somehow doubt it. Fourteen days is little enough to attend to all the jobs around the house, personal admin and other accumulated trivia, let alone re-establishing contact with your family, most of would have young children.
Your idea of four months with no R&R is simply callous.

[Blighter Pilot]

Your idea of four months with no R&R is simply callous.


Which is what the standard RAF OOA tour is to become shortly with many tours extending already to the 6 and 9 month area.

I would happily do six months without R+R again as the time at home only serves to upset spouse, children and relatives.

The Tristar is knackered and I take my hat off to the boys and girls of 216 Sqn who provide a fantastic service with an aircraft that was never designed to fly into operational environments.

Thats why we've bought into FSTA and A400M and why we need to ensure they survive SDSR - global projection, enforcment and resupply.

[HEDP]

Neptunus,

Not sure on your math there mate.

Two six month tours with R and R equates to moving a pax to and from theatre 4 times in a 12 month period.

Three 4 month tours in 12 months with no R and R equates to same pax only requiring to be moved to and from theatre 3 times in the same period.

Surely this is a reduction by 25%!!! Seems logical to me.

HEDP

[zetec2]

Interesting reading about tour lengths, 6 months /4 months etc with a break in the middle !, remember not so long back when I did my bit at Khormaksar & other hotspots up country etc (remember Radfan) tours were 2 year unnacompanied for singlies, I did over 2 years in the warm with a fortnights break at the halfway point & a lot of married men went nearly full tour due to lack of accomodation for families, so a 4 month or a 6 month tour doesn't seem that bad, am sure this will bring comments & I don't wish to do down the work our troops are now doing but that was the way it was when we had a proper Air Force. PH.

[Timble]

4 Month tours? No. Wouldn't work for the Army. I'm not knocking the RAF - I am fully aware of some of the guys/girls in KAF/BSN working 18+ hour days for 4 months at a time, but there would be problems for the Army doing that.

Each time an AO is handed over, a massive amount of information/intelligence is lost, and has to be regained by numerous familiarisation patrols, taking up time/effort of the new troops in. 4 Month tours would simply exaggerate the problem. The Afghans already get tired of having their UK partners switching twice a year - where is the incentive for them to build relationships if each year they will have 3 different units working for them.

I believe that longer tours are coming; indeed in some of the larger HQ's 9-12 month tours are the norm.

[Neptunus Rex]

HEDP
I must have it wrong. I thought the R&R was additional leave at the end of the six months tour.

[Timble]

Neptunus,

R&R is a (max) 14-day break given to troops on a 6 month tour if it is operationally viable. I managed 9 days on my last HERRICK, which included 2 days of travelling.

You are think of POL (Post-Operational Leave) - calculated at 1 day of leave per 9 days spent in theatre, to be taken upon EOT.

If troops go on longer tours, the R&R increases - 9 months works out as (IIRC) one 14-day break & 1 7-day break, with 12 months being 2 x 14 day packages.

T

[Top Bunk Tester]

Jimlad1
When I arrived in HERRICK (albeit after a 4 day 3 Tristar marathon), on my RSOI I was told that there had been a minor change in policy, and that your 14 day R&R allocation started from the moment you landed at Brize, and not when you left KAF. As such delays in Cyprus shouldnt count towards your R&R.

I think you'll find that the subtle change in wording should read "the moment you are PLANNED to land at BZZ" Which is effectively no change in policy at all, it just sounds better coming from a politicians lying lips. This is what I was told on my last ROI in April.

Neptunus Rex

R&R is 'mid' tour leave, POTL is Post Operational Tour Leave

[Jimlad1]

TBT - thanks for that - thought it was too good to be true. Just have to hope return visit is better than outward bound - take off, return to Brize with fault, overnight stop in gateway as standby plane breaks down, next day faulty plane fixed, takes off, breaks down in Cyprus, finally got there the following day.

On the plus side, the crew won a lot of plaudits for volunteering to stand up in front of 200 pax and tell us what was going on and why we were stopping / returning. Lots of people who could have been seriously grumpy instead totally on RAF side and understood why we were delayed.

[FlapJackMuncher]

What's the latest situation with HMP Gateway?
Last we heard, the top floor was accomodation for Brize personnel only, remainder - take your chances.

[Blacksheep]

Its interesting that the figure of 85,000 civil servants currently in the MOD lines up very well with the growth formula set out by Cecil Parkinson in his law.

In the heady days of the VC10/Britannia fleets and the Changi shuttle we operated to a schedule just like any other airline. Though there were grumbles at the occasional 24 hour delay, nobody ever had to buy a commercial ticket for a mid-tour R & R flight. In fact one could be lifted from the front line in Borneo/Radfan to a bed in any one of a dozen dedicated military hospitals staffed entirely by military medics in less than a day. The MOD was then split into the Admiralty, the War Office and the Air Ministry of course, so the massive savings achieved by combining all three into one must have enormously improved the conditions of service for our military personnel. :hmm:

[Boris1275]

Quote:
"The crews, who work incredibly hard cannot be blamed for this situation. They can only work with the tools they are supplied with by the Government."

I agree with you there! and if the army were still operating with 1980's equipment such as unmodified SA80's, clansman radios, soft skinned vehicles, 58 pattern webbing and large packs etc, etc I'm sure they would be having doubts about their own ability to operate effectively. 216 Sqn and the RAF in general are doing a fantastic job in operating a fleet of very tired aircraft which are well past retirement age! It must be like trying to run a taxi firm using model T Fords! :ugh:

[orgASMic]

It strikes me that the TriStar should not be doing the AKR-BZN leg anyway. It must be used on the AKR-KAF leg as it has got DAS but it must be more effective, in terms of cost and reliablity, to cross-deck pax at AKR onto a civil charter for the final leg home/first leg out.

216 could keep a rotating det forward at AKR doing shuttles to KAF, as they have the only pax aircraft fitted for the job. Set up correctly with engineer and spares support at AKR, they could keep the aircraft running and airborne more which would make them more reliable.

NB That is more reliable not perfect. The fact remains that they have needed replacing for years.

[30mRad]

And actually the press articel was incorrect. It wasn't due to aircraft serviceability but for a Greek ATC strike that hit civair as well!

The truth sometimes is avoided to make a political statement.

That said, the facts on poor investment in the Strat AT fleet stand, and I know how hard they work.

[dc1968]

Kinda makes you wonder don't it? 20 Billion+ quid alone for Trident 2 (which will NEVER fly in anger) and yet we're still moving our troops around the planet in bloody Tristars? Just how much would it really cost to get hold of half a dozen mothballed passenger aircraft (take your pick coz there's plenty sat over in the Mojave sunshine right now Mojave Air and Space Port (http://www.mojaveairport.com/aircraftstorage.htm) ), bolt on a DAS and Robert's your Uncle's Brother? Can't be that hard...can it?

[Biggus]

dc1968,

No, no harder than introducing any new aircraft that you haven't operated before. That your pilots have no experience of, your groundcrew have never maintaining, you have no technical publications for, no supply chain in place for. Oh, and that you are going to modify with a potentially unique modification.

The introduction of a new type also includes going through a variety of MOD hoops, including the new MAA, before accepting into service. Oh, and in a system which, post XV230, is very safety concious and risk adverse, maybe quite rightly so, for which you can read SLOW......

Oh, and Robert (Bob) was my Dads name.......:)

[Mr C Hinecap]

it must be more effective, in terms of cost and reliablity, to cross-deck pax at AKR onto a civil charter for the final leg home/first leg out.

216 could keep a rotating det forward at AKR doing shuttles to KAF, as they have the only pax aircraft fitted for the job. Set up correctly with engineer and spares support at AKR, they could keep the aircraft running and airborne more which would make them more reliable.


You missed the Movers out of that - and the time it takes to cross-deck two dissimilar aircraft (with the manpower and ACHE they don't currently have). Agreed - it makes operational sense to use the DAS-equipped a/c for the dangerous-only leg, but the other aspects of this make it less than viable.

[orgASMic]

"with the manpower and ACHE they don't currently have"

The cost of which is a drop in the ocean compared to the UORs propping up the rest of the war. Are movers suddenly a pinchpoint trade? Are they breaking harmony guidelines? We should be looking at the fragility of the airbridge from all angles.

[BEagle]

Of course, if they'd fitted the C2 an AAR probe, they could be refuelling en-route without any need to land and risk breaking down at Cyprus - assuming that the tanker was serviceable, of course.....:hmm:

Smaller aircraft, I grant you, but VC10Ks refuelled VC10 transports to facilitate non-stop Middle East to UK trips on several occasions in the past.

[orgASMic]

I will answer my own question:

Are they breaking harmony guidelines?

FSs and cpls are turning round at 20-24 month intervals
WOs and sgts at 30-36 months and ACs at 3-4 years.

So we are not short of movers.

[MATELO]

Did anybody catch in the article how many are getting civvy flights going back to Cyprus?

[Jimlad1]

On ARRSE, hackle (BAFF rep) suggested that it was more a case of troops delayed in Cyprus who were returning to Scotland chose to splash the cash on an Easyjet flight to make sure they got home more quickly than flying into Brize and transiting North.

Apparently it seems finding cases of people paying to fly to southern UK etc are thin on the ground...

[MADTASS]

One Pax in, One Pax out multiplied by two six month tours equates to four movements, agreed.

One Pax in, One Pax out multiplied by three four month tours equates to six movements surely, thus increasing the burden by 50% as mentioned.

[StopStart]

It's also worth bearing in mnd that this article was in the DT which has, of late, gone to great lengths to display it's staunch support for the Army Great RAF Crap line of thinking. Fully expect to see Telegraph article soon on how the RAF was directly responsible for the Great Fire of London and how the number of Air Rank officers is directly related to 3rd World Poverty, Global Warming and declining A Level results.

Ting.

[Gainesy]

Classic.:ok:

Talking of which, is Love and Kisses still lurching on or been chopped/ up for chop?

[TorqueOfTheDevil]

In the Telegraph article, Arbuthnot talks about replacement AT entering service 'early in the next decade'. Does he really mean that ie the 2020s?

[Easy Street]

TotD,

No, he means the early 2010s. The Telegraph, in true pedantic fashion, is representing 2010 as the last year of the current decade. 2011 is then the first year of the next decade.

It's the same dull pedantry that led some to claim the the new millenium began on 1 Jan 2001. Probably technically correct, but utterly at odds with our natural preference for nice round numbers.

[SirPeterHardingsLovechild]

It's hellish difficult getting weapons & ammunition through civvie customs, and x-ray scanners. Though some have tried.

Not to mention your 'Up the Kyber' Enfield, Russian Hand Grenade, and yer depleted uranium paperweight.

...and yer million ciggies, conterfeit viagra, and blood diamonds. :cool:

I blame it on the Movers :ok:

[Nomorefreetime]

example:
10,000 troops in, Jan
10,000 troops in, May
10,000 troops in Sept

30,000 seats used, 4 Month tours no R&R

10,000 troops in, Jan
10,000 troops in, July
10,000 seats R&R Jan - Jun
10,000 seats R&R Jul- Dec

40,000 seats used on 6 Month tours with R&R

Not all RAF trade posts in country are filled with Det posts, so spare a thought for the C130 crews, engs and AMW movs before suggesting any trade isn't feeling the pinch.

Hats off to all involed in the truckie world

[TorqueOfTheDevil]

Easy,

Thanks, I hoped so! My simpleton's logic suggests that 1980 was probably in the 1980s therefore 2010 would be in the 2010s, but I submit to the Minister's pedantry...though it will be interesting to see exactly when said AT platforms actually arrive...

[JTIDS]

Worth pointing out the flights route through Cyprus so that the troops coming home for good can go through decompression at Camp Bloodhound, so Air to Air wouldn't really help.

[Easy Street]

Worth pointing out the flights route through Cyprus so that the troops coming home for good can go through decompression at Camp Bloodhound, so Air to Air wouldn't really help.

The typical journey home causes so much mental anguish that I'm sure 8 out of 10 squaddies (and commanders) would happily trade a couple of nights' drinking / fighting / supervised tree-hugging in Cyprus for a non-stop ticket to Brize.

10,000 troops in, Jan
10,000 troops in, May
10,000 troops in Sept

30,000 seats used, 4 Month tours no R&R

I totally buy the argument about face-to-face contact for foot patrols, and personal relationships for commanders - but if the recent reports in the press are to be believed, then only about 20% of army pers in HERRICK actually set foot outside the wire. The 80% that stay inside the wire could be rotated on a 4-month no R&R basis - they are supporting pers, just like the various RAF elements. That would leave just 20% to do 6, 9 or 12-monthers with R&R - a much lower burden on the airbridge.

It might also encourage a little bit more continuity between consecutive HERRICKs.

[Sloppy Link]

Soldier magazine has an article from an AH Sqn ref this subject and a completely unsatisfactory response from the wrong person who has effectively said not my problem, speak to JHC.

SOLDIER AUG 2010_NP.pdf (http://viewer.zmags.com/publication/05e11b66#/05e11b66/64)

(not the easiest of formats to use, I reccommend using full screen mode and zoom).

SL

[moosemaster]

I believe he is re-iterating policy, clarifying that R&R is a privilege, rather than a right.

If the personnel cannot be spared, then R&R is not possible.

Remember, there are no extra staff to cover these absences, so those left behind must take up the slack. If a unit doesn't have enough people to take up that slack without reducing effectiveness, then no absence can be authorised.


I personally don't think it'll be long before we operate a similar 12 month tour policy as run by the US Armed Forces.

(As for FSTA and A400M, as far as I know both are still on track for the "updated" delivery dates; FSTA - October 2011; A400M ~ 2014?)

[StopStart]

cessnapete - not sure what dogends of conversation and rumour you've been picking up but most of what you've posted is sensationalist dogs eggs.

Cyprus isn't brilliant and they could do with reopening the aircrew feeder but meals are available in the messes out of hours and the aircraft themselves are rammed full of food anyway. No-one sleeps in unmade rooms.

Facilities at the destination may not be 5 star but plenty of other AT crews cope with them and indeed manage to survive for a month at a time in them without plunging from the sky. Not sure what CAA rules you think are being broken but slip patterns are managed within crew duty regulations, not just randomly made up.

The crews may not like the facilities and conditions they work under but that is mostly tough. Continually citing Flight Safety for everything that irks you serves no purpose and indeed repeatedly crying wolf will eventually bite you on the arse when you have something actually important to highlight.

PS. I'm not an apologist for the "system" or Akrotiri. I'm just a humble AT bloke who's been doing the job for 15 years with plenty of experience of all this stuff. Some people just need to man the f@ck up. :hmm:

PPS. FSTA will have DAS, slick, non-centreline versions will be bought forward to next year, TriStar binned 2011. StopStarts's SDSR prediction for the day.

[Blighter Pilot]

Stoppers:D

My crews and I have always seemed to manage with the facilities at AKT over the past 15 years or so.

Damn sight more comfortable than some other destinations!

As to in-theatre rooms, most other AT and JHC crews seem to manage during their dets and have been doing so for the last 9 years!

Is this just more evidence of the 'shiny-fleet' complaining because they actually have to support the operations from the sharp end and not a 5 Star hotel in Muscat?

[cessnapete]

UK FTL do not allow consecutive long night sectors with unsatisfactory 24 hr daytime rest.

Odd to me that because of a different paint job it is OK to operate an airliner to lesser standards in the military.

Still what do I know, I'm only a lowly long haul airline pilot!

[Blighter Pilot]

Odd to me that because of a different paint job it is OK to operate an airliner to lesser standards in the military.



That's exactly why - military aviation in support of on-going operations providing critical care casualty recovery, resupply, and R+R cannot be compared to long-haul or short haul bucket and spade flying.

We have a set of military regulations to ensure that operational flying is conducted as safe as possible - we cannot operate in accordance with civilian regulations and support front-line operations.

I'm fairly sure that the civilian sector has rules about people shooting at you as well:ok:

Still what do I know, I'm only a lowly long haul airline pilot!

A forum for the professionals who fly the non-civilian hardware, and the backroom boys and girls without whom nothing would leave the ground. Army, Navy and Airforces of the World, all equally welcome here.:=

[rock34]

Maybe that's the crux of it cessnapete. Some of us are war fighting, some of us aren't. Wars have a different set of rules. If someone doesn't like it then the door is not far away.

Edit - What previous post said..........

[cessnapete]

Oh dear, with 15,000+ hours of world wide heavy jet flying experience (not all bucket and spade) I thought I knew a bit to comment about flight safety. I obviously don't.
With the attitudes shown on previous posts-time to give in!!

[Q-RTF-X]

Kinda makes you wonder don't it? 20 Billion+ quid alone for Trident 2 (which will NEVER fly in anger) and yet we're still moving our troops around the planet in bloody Tristars? Just how much would it really cost to get hold of half a dozen mothballed passenger aircraft (take your pick coz there's plenty sat over in the Mojave sunshine right now Mojave Air and Space Port (http://www.mojaveairport.com/aircraftstorage.htm) ), bolt on a DAS and Robert's your Uncle's Brother? Can't be that hard...can it?


(1) Trident2 is a DETERRENT and thus is not intended to fly in anger; if it does then a lot of things will have fallen apart and we are all well and truly in the poo !

(2) Mobilizing a six pack of mothballed airliners is not an exactly easy nor inexpensive undertaking and unless the aircraft were subjected to an in depth inspection and overhaul may well prove no better than the VC 10's in terms of reliability; to say nothing of time and cost of training crews and engineers.

[rock34]

Cessnapete,

I appreciate that you have 15k hrs of "world wide heavy jet flying experience (not all bucket and spade)". How much of that was in the military world? Any of it since 2003? Genuine questions.

It just seems to me (non aircrew just in case you don't know) that you're trying to set one set of values (from the civilian world) onto another area that you may or may not have experience of. I deliberately ask 'since 2003' as the wars we have and are fighting over the last few years have little in common with the cold war.

[Biggus]

Cessnapete,

You came onto this thread and made some pretty specific comments, about Tristar crews getting little sleep, shared accommodation, the inability to get food at Akrotiri outside the standard meal times, rooms in Akrotiri not being "made up".....if I remember correctly.

I say "if I remember correctly" because the post isn't there any more, unless I am going blind (possible - I am getting old). I don't suppose you DELETED IT did you? As it is in post 49 Stoppers is replying to comments from you, but at this point you don't appear to have made any.

Stoppers came back and responded to some of your specific comments about Akrotiri, which I see you have made no comment on. Blighter pilot also agreed with him.

Neither Stoppers or Blighter criticised you personally. It was you who brought in all the puerile "..what would I know I'm only a long haul airline pilot..." and "..I've got 15,000hrs+ world wide heavy jet experience..." type comments. Well, Stoppers is Hercs, not Tristars, but I'm sure in the last 15 years he has spent more than 15,000 hours on the ground at Akrotiri and sandy places further east. I am far more likely to believe someone who has been there than a civilian airline pilot, no matter how good or experienced (which is not relevant), who hasn't. Where did you get your information from, a Tristar guy in the pub who was trying to "big up" his time out there.

Come out and defend your comments rather than deleting then, and you might earn some respect.

Oh, by the way, I've also spent many hours on the ground at Akrotiri (and further east), but not that recently, and what Stoppers and Blighter say ties in with my own personal experience.....

Reference your comment about time to give in - please DO! :)

[Neptunus Rex]

Cessna Pete
For all your pious mouthing about flight safety, consider this. The Royal Air Force has been operating a variety of transport aircraft world-wide for many years, including to some fairly 'difficult' airfields. In the last 40 years, not one passenger has been lost on normal transport ops. How many airlines can match that?
Before you pontificate on a subject that is beyond your ken, you should -
"Get Some In!"

[tommee_hawk]

Fincastle,

...... any sane individual understands that the state of the equipment is the sole responsibility of the useless politicians, supported by the 85,000 useless MOD civil servants.

What a disgraceful remark from someone who should know better. All the MOD civil servants I've met (a lot) have been more committed to defence and more willing to work long hours when necessary than many of my light blue colleagues - and for about half the salary.

Fincastle, you should be ashamed of yourself.

[rock34]

Wow, is this going to descend into a 'I think the RAF should be disbanded because of.........' thread?:}

[TorqueOfTheDevil]

Wow, is this going to descend into a 'I think the RAF should be disbanded because of.........' thread?


Is there any other kind...?

[StopStart]

cessnapete - my comments weren't directed at you per se but were more of a sideways glancing blow at the generally unwarranted gurning that tumbles out of Twenty One Six with alarming regularity. You are more than welcome to comment on Flight Safety issues with your 15000+ hrs of to-ing and fro-ing, however don't be offended when its pointed out to you that the "facts" on which you base your arguments are, in fact, hoop. That you deleted your original post suggests that perhaps aren't so confident in your source after all...? :cool:

Don't get on your high horse about being a "lowly airline pilot" - no one has criticised your experience or right to comment but please don't assume that you being an experienced airline pilot makes you any cleverer than those of us that are equally experienced military pilots. I would never presume to tell you how to do your job so don't assume you know the first thing about mine. You're comparing Apples and Hoovers. Similarly, if you think that a slightly sleepy brit mil pilot is going to cause havoc in the airways of the UK then I dread to think what the legions of dodgy foreign charter and cargo aircraft there will do (or indeed, the legions of slightly sleepy UK airline pilots)....

Flight Safety isn't something that any of us thumb our nose at but at the same time, those that the pull the FS card over every minor issue are, frankly, abusing and devaluing the system and do themselves, and the rest of us, absolutely no favours at all

[cessnapete]

OK guys I give me a break, I get the message!!
I just chatted to a mate in the military, he was obviously wrong, and
I'm not qualified to comment on military matters I have no experience of.
End of my posting on the subject.

[JTIDS]

As with at least one of the transport aircraft we fly, the entire training and currency system was I believe based around "What would BA do?" Perhaps listening to how our civilian long haul mates operate would be a good idea.

Certainly getting some civilian airport workers in to explain to Brize movements how to run an airport would seem to make sense to me. :)

[Mighty Quercus]

JTIDS.

There are civilian airport workers at BZZ they're called SERCO.

[Junglydaz]

Quote:
Fincastle, you should be ashamed of yourself.
I most certainly am not ashamed of myself. I am expressing an opinion based on 30 years of service. You have every right to disagree, that's why Pprune exists, to promote open discussion.





So in this "30 years experience" how much time was spent working alongside each of the 85,000 useless civil servants?

Or wasn't it, and you just believed what you heard? Lots of changes have happened in the last 20 years old bean.

[Nomorefreetime]

JTIDS or anyone

Care to expand on how Brize movers should run an airport

[The Old Fat One]

F84

I don't think I was useless when I found submarines for navigators to play with and I don't think I was useless when I worked swapped hats and became a civil servant with the MOD.

I understand the sentiment, but you've overplayed your hand. The RAF and Civil Service have their oxygen thiefs in equal measure and they each have a lot of hard working, professional lads and lasses too.

And the vast majority are all essential members of the ever dwindling thing we call "defence".

[Biggus]

F84,

If your age is correct, and I think it is, then you retired at least 8 years ago, and, more to the point, the start of your "....30 years service...." was 38 years ago!!! Many things have changed in the past 38 years.

TOFO has a valid point, there are good and bad in all organizations. I have been LM for some civil servants, who in my opinion did a good job. The MOD got outstanding value for money when you consider they were only being paid £16-17,000 a year.

I have come across many "oxygen thiefs" in blue suits, I don't think I would say the same about any civil servant I have worked with closely.....

However - as you have, correctly, pointed out, you are entitled to your opinion. People are also entitled to disagree with you, and, for what it is worth, I DO...... :ok:

[fincastle84]

I admit defeat & hereby withdraw my comments about civil servants & apologise for any hurt feelings so caused.
I have ammended the initial comment to reflect this.

[glug]

Just incase there is anyone else like Fincastle who believes what they read in the papers, the actual numbers of Civil servants breaks down more or less like this:

The total number of 85,370 civilians actually includes:
2,300 RFA staff who crew ships refuelling and reprovisioning the navy (in most other countries this role would be more likely to be performed by the military);
9,800 locally-employed civilians who play vital roles as interpreters, guides etc, often in active theatres of war;
11,000 industrial grades including warehouse staff, drivers and some messenger staff.
9,700 employed by trading funds - the Army Base Repair Organisation (ABRO) and DARA are vital to the maintenance of the armed forces' equipment and again in some countries would be staffed by the military.
1,060 teachers and others involved in Service Childrens Education.
7,450 who make up the MDP, MGS, and MPGS.
Various Defence Intelligence and Rocket scientist types, roughly another 4,000.
If you then do the sums of what’s left you discover that of those 41,000 'admin' type civil servants, nearly 30,000 of them are in clerical grades, doing admin jobs that would otherwise be done by forces personnel for a lot more money and overheads.

The ratio of civilian to military is about 1 civil servant to every 3.6 servicemen/women. The Tpapers compare them unfavourably to our NATO colleagues, but France has a ratio of 1 to 3 and the United States have a 1 to 1.8 ration.

[GIATT]

JTIDS or anyone

Care to expand on how Brize movers should run an airport

I checked in 5 pax with bags in MIA 2 hours before take off. At ATL there were just 40 minutes between aircraft stopping and the next one backing off and the two aircraft were at opposite ends of the terminal (it's a bit bigger than BZN). We ran the whole way and only just made it and all we had to do was pickup the bags from under our seats and run between gates.

No idea how they managed to extract, sort, and move the bags between holds at Atlanta, but when we got to the final destination our bags were there. And along the UK leg they had managed to separate the domestic and international bags. There were also firearms in the hold on the first two legs.

I've lost count of the number of explanations in this forum about the difficulties in moving bags between airframes and the impossibility of checking in any less than 6 hours before take off. If the civvy world can manage to do it as a matter of course then clearly it can be done. BTW it was three different airframes to boot. MD80, 767, A320.

[Mr C Hinecap]

No idea how they managed to extract, sort, and move the bags between holds at Atlanta

If the civvy world can manage to do it as a matter of course then clearly it can be done

They mark them as such, they put them in the Sort Tin and they get handled as the minority exception and are expedited as such when you hit the hub. Easy.

You are comparing two totally different things - transiting through a hub with connecting flights and getting on a flight to an operational theatre. Nice schedules with enough serviceable aircraft available would be lovely out of Brize - but it won't happen for a plethora of reasons.

[Tricorn]

Twenty One Six


Small point....I remember being told very firmly many years ago by a WO on 216 Sqn that it is ALWAYS - Two Sixteen!!

[Flik Roll]

No one has mentioned that there has been pressure eased on the ageing Tristar fleet with most of the green on RiP flights being taken from other airports of chartered civ flights via other locations (not Cyrpus) and onward with 99Sqn. Works very well with minimal fuss and delay with top notch facilites for the layover before onward movement straight into BSN. I know most of 4 Bde were moved in and 11 Bde out this way.

Someone also suggested earlier using civ flights for Cyp - BZZ -- cant really see civi airlines being equipped for casevac??

[Neptunus Rex]

Flik Roll
Not true, old boy. I have flown a civil Airbus A330 on numerous occasions with a casevac fit. It took three rows of outboard seats to accommodate the stretcher and harness. There was a large oxygen bottle to hand, plus a doctor and nurse with all the requisite kit in adjacent seats. Of course, it was all paid for by the patient's insurance company. All very similar to what I recall seeing as a passenger on a RAF VC10 flying from RAF Muharraq to RAF Carterton East many years ago.

[BEagle]

216 might be 'Two Sixteen' to people on the squadron, but to most others it was often 'Twenty one and sixpence'. Or even 'Guinea and Tanner'. That's 21s 6d or 21/6 for those who remember good old pre-1971 £ s d. Just as 111 or 'Treble One' was often 'One eleven' to other F-4 squadrons - and 617 was 'Six Seventeenth Bombardment Squadron' or 'One raid, one dead dog' squadron to real bomber squadrons...

...a doctor and nurse with all the requisite kit in adjacent seats. Ahhh, ooh yes. Some of those aeromed sisters did indeed have 'all the requisite kit'.....:E

[Barksdale Boy]

And 35 were just "a bunch of cowboys".

[cornish-stormrider]

and nobody ever topped the mighty XI (F)

IIRC twas the first sqn tasked with fighter duties - not like now. Mud movers - bah, I ****s em

[rusty_monkey]

Rex,
Although you can put an aero med fit on most civil types the set up on the Tri Stars and C-17s allows for a complete CCAST (Critical Care) setup allowing the patient to be accessed as if in a hospital and although the C-17s take the majority of critical patients the Timmy still handles its fair share, as well as those less seriously injured who still require a stretcher. Unless dedicated to the role most civil carriers place the stretchers onto lowered seats which are not ideal for the patient or the aero med team.

Back to the original topic pax have to seek permission via PJHQ to leave the air bridge, and this is not often given. If pax do decide that a civil carrier suits them best then (if permitted) it is explained to them at great length that this is not a recognised route and they will have to pay for their own transport. The poor mover caught between PJHQ and the angry passenger is only the messenger, not responsible for the delay/ash cloud Greek ATC/broken aircraft, yet it is they who receive the brunt of the flack.

On another note the 216 crews will always offer to explain to passengers why the plane is broken or some country or other won't let us over fly them this week.

[Neptunus Rex]

rusty_monkey
Your point about CCAST is well taken.
The lowered seats on an A330 presented the stretcher at about waist height, which made it easy to move on and off, as well as giving the medics the same access to the patient as a 'gurney' or operating table, albeit from one side only.
There used to be a first class hospital in Akrotiri, what is it like now?

BEagle
About the nurses' 'kit.' Absolutely right, Sir!
http://www.augk18.dsl.pipex.com/Smileys/nursekiss.gif

[rusty_monkey]

I am slightly biased towards TPMH as my partner would not be here if it wasn't for the staff there. The infrastructure is tired and could use investment and IMHO we could make better use of the facility with regard to the repat of Herrick casualties. One interesting dit... An OF9/10 grade civil servant who had quite openly spoken of its closure suffered a heart attack returning via akrotiri and guess were they got treated. Oh the fickle goods of fate.

[212man]

I am slightly biased towards TPMH

Me too - I was born there!

[collbar]

Of course the whole AT schedule runs around movers! some of the troops being moved are deliberately delayed so that there is no flow clash at home.. Any AT captain will have heard this phrase before and wilted at the prospect of explaining this poor excuse. The whole military AT system revolves around a handful of guys at an Oxfordshire base being available!! Perhaps some of the guys sitting around at an certain middle east base could come home and help out.
I have heard of aircraft being told they couldn’t leave early from Iraq because of flow clash, fortunately the message was drowned out by the incoming/air-raid siren!!

This short-sighted way of operating winds people up no end and denies the aircraft gingers the opportunity to fix and faults being carried. They are denied the time to fix them before they are turned round. Yes 10hrs might seem a long ground time but thats only 4hrs fix time!!:ugh:

[Mr C Hinecap]

Of course the whole AT schedule runs around movers!

Why yes - obviously! Those evil Movers infiltrating the tasking world - Brize Ops is probably headed up by such a despot. I bet the Stn Cdr at Brize is a Muppet too.

No they are not. I don't think there are any Movers sitting that far up the tree anywhere. Lay responsibility somewhere close to where it lies rather than slagging a Trade! Do you really think a single Trade holds responsibility here? :ugh:

[collbar]

When trying to get a slot time into Brize, unfortunatly yes!! Its busy there you know.

Im not having a go at movers in total, without them the AT world would get nowhere. It's just thier minimal manning at the main UK hub will not allow aircraft to return early even when empty when techies would dearly like to get there hands on them.

Damn I bite easily on a sunday!

[Mr C Hinecap]

It's just thier minimal manning at the main UK hub will not allow aircraft to return early even when empty when techies would dearly like to get there hands on them.

So - the Independent Free Nation of Movers decide on the manning levels at the APOE, so they are at fault when unplanned movements can't happen? Last time I checked, OC APOE Wg (Movs qualified Logistician) worked to the Stn Cdr - or is there a secret cabal (probably zionists in tin foil hats) that misdirects and means the Stn Cdr isn't in charge?

[Nomorefreetime]

I seem to recall a while back the discussion about Brize's single runway. Well Brize also has 1 x Air Terminal, 1 x Inbound lounge, 1 x Outbound lounge. 1 Aircrafts worth of Buses and drivers. I,m sure there are enough movers to handle more than 1 Aircraft at a time. I'm sure the crews would love to entertain pax while they wait for the bus, terminal to become available. The facilities are dated as well as the aircraft.
Money needed all round

[Biggus]

Mr C H

Given the scenario implied, yes the Stn Cdr is in charge.....of the assets he has been given!

If he hasn't enough movers, so they are the station choke point, he can ask for some more - but until/unless he gets them he has to manage the situation he has inherited as best he can. Which may mean that availability of movers is the limiting factor on aircraft movements. Not ideal, not necessarily the movers fault, but possibly reality.


Of course I am just surmising this from comments that have gone before - I fully admit to having no personal knowledge of the situation at Brize.

Perhaps someone with more inside knowledge could enlighten us all - if its not consider a state secret?!

[brit bus driver]

Well, well. 3 years after leaving the same old arguments/issues still doing the rounds. Tour lengths, R&R/no R&R, fwd dets at AKT, civ slips all underpinned by the constant reassurance that 'it is our number one priority'...but obviously nothing has changed. Successive OC 216s must surely be issued a special patch of brick wall specifically for banging their head against.

[flytrap]

Stopstart,

Perhaps twenty one six's continuous whingeing about flight safety is the reason we manage to avoid landing with our gear up at nearby airfields...God forbid we should try to ensure that we are as fresh as possible when flying the boys around the world. No one minds sleeping in a dump when there is no option, but when the option is there, why accept less? By your logic we should sleep in BFOTs at all times, and eat rat packs 24/7 365.

FT

[StopStart]

Re-read the post old girl and then have another go. A realistic and adult approach to Flight Safety is what keeps us all safe in this business. Bleating about the lack of fluffiness of your pillows in a FS report is what keeps the rest of us chortling. Talk me through your analogy again though as I don't quite follow. The Herc crew were fabulously well rested as they had probably had their feet up at home for the previous month or two prior to that "fateful" trip; I fail to see the connection? Perhaps too much "rest" is a bad thing? :rolleyes:

we are as fresh as possible

You said it yourself; "possible" is the operative word here. Sometimes that big old 5 star feather bed just isn't "possible".

I'll agree that any fool can be uncomfortable and the AT world is well known for it's "Checking In and not Digging In" approach to life but there is a limit and the actions of certain crew members I have had the misfortune to personally witness whilst travelling with you lot left me ashamed to be a member of the same Service. I'm not having a go at 216 per se by the way - I know people on the sqn who are just as embarrassed by the actions of a few as the rest of us are. I just strongly object to the misuse of the Flight Safety card.

Get over yourself and get on with your job.

PS. A big thank you from the rest of the AT world for ballsing up the rates/allowances "system" in AKR :ok:

[Arty Fufkin]

Go on StopStart, I could do with a cheering up.

Would you mind telling us about one of these incidents where you were made to feel ashamed by a crews actions? Go on fella, let rip!!:}

Also: Allowances at AKT? whats going on there?

[NUFC1892]

Taken from the Cyprus Mail last week:

EasyJet offers ‘rescue fares’ for stranded troops

By Patrick Dewhurst Published on August 18, 2010

LOW-COST carrier easyJet said yesterday it was launching a special ‘rescue fare’ via Cyprus for British troops who are being delayed in getting home to the UK from the front lines in Afghanistan.

Those travelling via Cyprus can go to one of the island’s two airports - Paphos and Larnaca - between six to two hours before an easyJet flight and purchase a ‘rescue rate’ ticket, the airline said.
Tickets will be priced at £43 sterling and will include a kitbag at no extra charge, it added.
Paul Simmons, UK General Manager said: “This is about getting our troops home as soon as possible if things go wrong with their intended travel plans. The special time with friends and family is vital to those serving in the forces and we’re happy that we can help in some small way.”
It emerged on Monday that faulty RAF passenger planes were prompting some British soldiers transiting through Cyprus on their way home from Afghanistan, to buy their own tickets home on commercial flights.
The Telegraph reported the grounding of an RAF Tristar aeroplane in Akrotiri, which left more than 200 homebound British troops stranded for three days in Kandahar province.
The incident allegedly prompted “dozens” of subsequently returning troops to book EasyJet tickets from Cyprus back to the UK, so that they could spend their leave with friends and family.
One defence source confirmed 11 cases in which soldiers had booked commercial flights back to Scotland, because of anticipated disruption due to industrial action by French air traffic controllers.
While the threat of strikes has loomed large in recent weeks, a second defence source based in Cyprus confirmed it was problems with the “air bridge” – the route between Afghanistan, Cyprus and the UK - which prompted anxious troops to buy the “dozens of tickets.”
The source sought to reassure troops, saying this three day delay was “obviously a one off” and that the troops’ decision to book was not necessary, and that no returning soldiers would miss out on their rest and recuperation (‘R&R’)
UK ministry of defence spokesman Nick Manning confirmed this yesterday, saying “Acting upon the concerns of personnel who have experienced problems, the incoming Government has recently made significant changes to ensure they do not lose out on Rest and Recuperation as a result of disruptions to the air bridge.”
Manning said all troops affected by these disruptions would be granted additional post operational tour leave on a day-for-day bases.
Asked about the problems with the Tristar aeroplane, Manning said, “Tristar is a hard working aircraft, operating in tough environments which, unfortunately, can sometimes lead to unavoidable delays.”
Around 9,000 British troops are routed through Cyprus to Afghanistan every six months, with most returning troops remaining on the island for “decompression” at the end of each tour.
EasyJet said the ‘rescue fare’ would be available for a initial six week trial period and tickets would be offered subject to availability. The fare will be £43 sterling for a one way fare to any UK airport that easyJet flies to from Cyprus. Also tickets can only be purchased by troops transferring through Cyprus. The routes include: Paphos to London Gatwick, Luton, Bristol and Manchester, and from Larnaca to London Gatwick

[StopStart]

Arty

Plenty but this isn't the place to air the RAF's dirty laundry but many thanks for the clearance to "let rip" :rolleyes:

[Arty Fufkin]

Oh go on, You know you want to! I do love a good handbag fight!

[BEagle]

Just for you:
YouTube - Hangbag fighting old ladies (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J4aHrRocA3E&feature=related)

[rusty_monkey]

A couple of days since I lasted posted and I will set the record straight on several items.
Movers (logistics officers) do have Stn Cdrs and the current Boss at AKT is one.

Brize can handle more than one aircraft at a time as advertised in there MOG and the main limiting factor isn't the number of movers but how many passengers can be handled by the terminal at any time, it was designed to handle one comet/VC 10 in and out with a max of 147 pax. It currently handles considerably more than that with very old infrastructure.

Movers are very much aware of the limitations this places on the ground crews and the knock on to servicing times and crew rest limitaions, we are also not willing to place the crews, GEs or pax in danger. Two legal documents for an aircraft are the load and trim and the flight servicing document. The first of these is signed for by a mover and the aircraft capt. (yes I know loadies can too!) the second signed by the GE/Techies and capt. We are part of the loop and aware of how much hard work goes into maintaining the frames and the crews.
It is a team effort to maintain the airbridge and we are all part of it. Something to be justifiably proud of considering how many 1000s of pax and tonnes of frieght that between us we move into and out of theatre with limited assets.

Next onto the stranded pax and Civ air option. The MOD deems it there responsibility to return all passengers to the UK and anyone seeking to travel at there own expense from any destination halfway down route will have to seek permission from someone fairly high up in PJHQ before they can do this. We will get them home and it is only a very small number of flights that are delayed. It is unfortunate that the few that are delayed, garner so much negative publicity.

As previously mentioned this isn't the place to air our dirty laundry and if you do experience a problem on a flight or at any of the airheads ensure that it is included in the Passenger Reporting Officers report. If you don't then it is never going to show any trends or create any change

[I_stood_in_the_door]

Rusty,

Just to put the record straight, Logistics Officers are not 'Movers' per se. They are Logistics Officers with a Movements Q annotation (or so I'm told!!).

I have followed this thread and it dismays me that we all end up having a go at each other (again). Everyones works their hardest to ensure that every jet is prepared/loaded/unloaded/serviced on time and goes sausage side in a serviceable state in order to get everyone home/to Th on time.

Why, oh why must people continue to knock the system when everyone knows the true limitations of the airbridge.

On a lighter note, is it raining at home? Nark, nark.

LFOGOOTFW :8

[rusty_monkey]

GRUMBLE MUMF BL*&DY movements Q My Posterior! I didn't say Movements Officer either (removes hook from corner of mouth)

Other than that well said