293 Sqn and Sgt J Lewis [Archive]

QuePee

14th Aug 2010, 01:14

I have seen many threads on this and other forums depicting old photographs that always seem to generate a degree of interest so I thought I would share some of late fathers pictures

He was part of 284 Sqn stationed at RAF Blida in Algeria, and was selected to be part of the group that broke away to form a new squadron, 293 Sqn. They were equipped with Vickers Warwick primarily but had Walrus, Hurricane (a single example) and various other communication aircraft at various times including an Anson and a single engine US type whose name escapes me at the moment and were engaged in ASR for the Med region.

The copyright for all of these photos rests originally with my father but as he has passed away I guess they are now mine.

Anyway here is a selection;

http://i33.tinypic.com/23mswlh.jpg

This Hurricane is one of three that the squadron used in the N African region namely K2736, KW849 or LB660 and was flown almost exclusively by Sgt Pye. The squadron was only permitted one Hurricane at a time so the three mentioned served at different periods and it is not easy to link the photo with any particular serial.....unless someone knows better.

http://i33.tinypic.com/2jcfuva.jpg

Walrus X9506 resting in the sun at RAF Foggia, Italy in 1945. It carries the squadron code ZE.

http://i36.tinypic.com/5orzir.jpg

Walrus W2719 probably taken at about the same time as the previous picture. Coded ZE-Q.

http://i37.tinypic.com/2dvsplf.jpg

Warwick BV454 ZE-D after an undercarriage collapse following a night landing at RAF Pomigliano, Italy. The pilot was the aforementioned Sgt Pye.

http://i35.tinypic.com/30s7fpt.jpg

Principle ASR equipment was the airborne lifeboat. It was used quite extensively but the results were not predictable and many were lost on impact with the sea. Also the locals used to sneak onto the airfield at night and take the emergency rations from the boats and on more than one occassion also stole the engine.

I have quite a few more pictures if anyone is interested including a few visitors to the various bases, Stirling, B25, Beaufighter etc.

Que Pee

Icare9

14th Aug 2010, 14:40

Great photo's Que Pee snd of course we'd be interested!!
What else have you got?
I assume you've seen the "Gaining an RAF pilots brevet in WW2" in the Military Aircrew section? Sounds like your stuff could be a valuable addition there, especially if you have any Memoirs from your father.
I think we'd all be interested in ASR work, it's a very under rated aspect yet I'm sure the numbers of people who owe their lives to them must run into thousands.
See if you can rustle up any more info for us!

India Four Two

14th Aug 2010, 15:41

I agree. Great photos.

Since the Hurricane has cannon (a IIc?), I'm guessing it is unlikely to be K2736, which is probably an early Hurricane. I assume somebody here with access to a serials list will be able to nail it down.

QuePee

16th Aug 2010, 00:54

Changing an oil tank on a Warwick was not a simple task. This picture shows one in the process of being changed in field conditions. Believed to be RAF Pomigliano.

http://i38.tinypic.com/352q3b6.jpg

An un-named armourer was checking and cleaning the guns in the upper turret of Warwick BV454 on 24th July 1944 at RAF Pomigliano. The guns should have been cleared of all ammunition before starting work. Of course it should also be impossible to shoot your own fin as various safety systems stop this from happening. The guns were not cleared, the safety system failed and the one round that was left in the breech was an incendiary. the results are very predictable.....

http://i38.tinypic.com/ih5rbk.jpg

Not much left after the fire was extinguished,

http://i35.tinypic.com/fxt65l.jpg

QP

JulianPB

7th Mar 2013, 19:53

Hi There,

Thanks for posting the pics. My dad was a Warrant Officer pilot in 293 Squadron and flew Walruses and Warwicks. I'm going to show him this page next time I visit (he's 89) and will post if he has any interesting info.

All the best,

Julian

QuePee

11th Mar 2013, 02:33

I really hope he is interested in contributing. I have all my fathers stuff from 293, although he is sadly no longer with us. It will be interesting to see if your fathers name appears in my Dad's diaries.

:Looking forward to some news.

QP

DuoSi

12th Mar 2013, 21:22

My father-in-law, Harry Brown, now 91, was a wireless operator/air gunner in a Warwick crew on 293 Sqn. His Captain's name was Rawlings.

He has fond memories of his time on the squadron and remembers the Warwick gun-cleaning incident, though he doesn't remember Sergeant Pye.

It would be great to see any other pictures anyone may have.

QuePee

15th Mar 2013, 01:35

Good evening all,

It is gratifying and somewhat surprising to see so many of the 293 Sqn folks still with us. Unfortunately my father passed away in 1994 otherwise I am sure he would be fascinated at the thought of re-connecting with his old squadron buddies. Apart from the contacts through this forum I am aware of at least one other surviving Sgt pilot from those days, in fact he was the guy in charge of flying the Warwick in the prang shown above.

I have scanned copies of all of my fathers photos from this period and also his very detailed diary from the same time, and am very wlling to share both with anyone that is interested. Many of his photos are of the aircraft of 293, but also many others of the ground crew, vehicles, camp sites etc and so may not be too interesting to the other forum members but if you care to pm me I will provide you with whatever I can.

As a taster, try this one and see if anyone’s face is familiar.......

http://i47.tinypic.com/10rn7yp.jpg

Best Regards

QP

mpierrela

16th Mar 2013, 10:24

I have information on a WAG with 293 Squadron.
His name is Charles Stanley Horrell.

mpierrela

16th Mar 2013, 11:53

About RAF 293 Squadron | RCAF No. 443 Squadron (http://443squadron.wordpress.com/2013/03/16/about-raf-293-squadron/)

JulianPB

17th Mar 2013, 22:54

Hiya,

Visited my dad today and showed him the pics and this page. He remebered Rawlings, but not Harry Brown.

Names he came up with were:

Warwick pilots:
Capt Riley (SAAF)
Flt Lt. Tony Spink
W/O Birch
Flt Lt. Rawlings
S.Ldr Zetterden

Walrus Pilots:
F/O Humphrey
W/O "Wacker" Smith (Liverpool)
W/O Harry West (?) (Bristol)
W/O Jimmy Warnick (RCAF)
W/O Tex? (nickname)
F/O Bedford

Observers:
Flt Lt Moe Foster (RCAF)

W/OP Air Gunners:
F/Sgt Joe Cattromole
F/Sgt Sammy Samuels
F/Sgt Norman Board
P/O Simpson
F/Sgt Freddy Arsenault (RCAF)

Cook:
Taffy Powell

Ground Crew:
LAC George Ayres
Sgt Joe Drew

Aerodromes:
Pomigliano - Naples
Foggia (Main)
Grosseto(?)
Pisa
Rosignano
Bastia - Corsica

That's a string of names he came up with that obviously featured in his wartime life. I'm sure if you wanted any more info, he'd be glad to elaborate. There may also be some spelling mistakes in there as I'm copying his hand written notes and I badly need reading glasses. Incidentally, his name was W/O Bagwell. It would be very interesting to hear about the diaries as my dad lost all of kit after being demobbed when the train he was on split with the guards van going off with the tail half while he was on the front.

Cheers,

Julian

mpierrela

18th Mar 2013, 00:56

Hi,

Nicole told me that her grandfather's logbook is not in her possession.
She is trying to get it back.

If she does, I will post another message.

Pierre

QuePee

18th Mar 2013, 01:48

I am astonished to see this three year old thread get resurrected and for so much info to be forthcoming. In addition to the posters on this forum I have also received some interesting PMs.

I willllow up with each of you when I am able, we are in the throes of moving house at the moment and you know how chaotic that can be.

Give me a few days and I will be back.

Thanks and best wishes

QP

mpierrela

18th Mar 2013, 16:39

Just this word...

Great.

Nicole and her mother will go crazy when I will tell them.

You have my personal e-mail where you can reach me.

Pierre

JulianPB

18th Mar 2013, 20:34

"I am astonished to see this three year old thread get resurrected and for so much info to be forthcoming. "

This is what I love about the Internet :O

All the best,

julian

QuePee

24th Mar 2013, 17:53

Many thanks to all the contributors so far, both on this forum and also via PM. My house move is almost complete but chaos still reigns. Anyway I will try and provide some more info and also ask a few questions too.

Many thanks for the list of names supplied earlier on. I can add a few more to the list;
Cpl Pitman
AC Cuthbertson
AC Claypole
Sgt Low
Flying Off Chesney
Sgt Minto
Flt Lt Hayes
W/O Bradley

The first three airmen were 293 Sqn ground crew taking part in a post maintenance test flight and were killed in the crash of Warwick coded W on 18 April 1943, so far the exact aircraft has not been identified. The pilot lost control after an engine cover jammed the elevator controls and the aircraft crashed into high ground.

The 293 Sqn ORB records the following in reference to Flt Lt Hayes;
‘F/Lt. Hayes and W/O. Bradley airborne in Walrus 9506 (X9506 ZE-C) at 17.50hrs to endeavour to effect a rescue. They were in position at 18.15hrs and were extremely pleased to see seven Spitfires orbiting the position. Unfortunately the two people on shore had swum out to the dinghy and taken the pilot on shore. The Walrus circled low while preparing a note instructing the pilot to row out to sea in a boat seen by the Walrus pilot. When circling for the third time automatic small arms fire was encountered, one bullet entering the cockpit through the windscreen and wounding Hayes in the left arm. The Walrus circled for some time afterwards to ensure that the pilot on the ground had taken cover and then returned to base at 19.15hrs. F/Lt. Hayes is the first member of 293 Sqn injured in action’.

I do not have access to the official records from across the pond of course but the following is a list of aircraft and codes that I have gleaned from Dad’s notes. If anyone can add any more or confirm any missing codes etc I would love to hear from you. Also I wonder if anyone has, or knows where I can get, a list of Warwick histories. There is very little on the web that I have been able to find. Maybe something has been published elsewhere that I am not aware. Any info welcome.

Warwick
BV234 ZE-F, ZE-L
BV237 ZE-F
BV238 ZE-K
BV243
BV251 ZE-E
BV269
BV271 ZE-F
BV273
BV274 ZE-S
BV275 ZE-O
BV277 ZE-T
BV278 ZE-U
BV279 ZE-M
BV283 ZE-M
BV284 ZE-D
BV287 ZE-V
BV297 ZE-F
BV315 ZE-H
BV332 ZE-R
BV365
BV415 ZE-C
BV420
BV444 ZE-A
BV445 ZE-A
BV446 ZE-G
BV447 ZE-U1
BV449 ZE-A
BV450 ZE-X1
BV451
BV454 ZE-D
BV455 ZE-Y
BV457 ZE-E
BV464 ZE-B
BV502 ZE-N
BV505
HF948 ZE-F
HF955 ZE-A, ZE-H
HF958 ZE-H
HF966 ZE-H
HG132 ZE-C
Hurricane
K2736
KW849
LB660
Walrus
P5667 ZE-V
L2170
L2207
L2217
L2266
W2719 ZE-Q
W2729 ZE-T
W2750
W2757 ZE-O
X9474 ZE-F
X9503
X9506 ZE-C
Z1756 ZE-Y
Z1777
Z1779
Z1813

I have been in contact with the family of Ted Boness a WAG with 293 Sqn and after comparing logbooks etc it was discovered that he was on BV454 that crash landed and is pictured in the first post of this thread. Small world made even smaller by the power of the internet.

Finally in one of the PMs that I received a reference was made to a Warwick of 293 Sqn that crash landed on the beach in Italy. I wonder if it was this one that did exactly that at Vesti on 17th April 1944.

http://i46.tinypic.com/fv8bxz.jpg

My father sent a team out to retrieve some badly needed spares from the wreck before the Royal Engineers were called in to blow up the remains.

In my next post I will try and upload some photos of visitors to 293 Sqn bases as there are some interesting aircraft that others might like to see.

That’s all for now.

QP

JulianPB

27th Mar 2013, 20:34

Hiya,

I think the best place to check for info is probably the National Archives.

I found squadron records:

Looking for records of a Royal Air Force squadron | The National Archives (http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/records/looking-for-subject/raf-squadron.htm)

and operations:

Royal Air Force operations | The National Archives (http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/records/research-guides/raf-op.htm)

and aircraft logs in section 6 of the raf-op page.

They probably charge, we'll have to find out how much.

Will pass on the info on Sunday.

All the best.

QuePee

2nd Apr 2013, 18:34

Here as promised (though later than anticipated) is the first of the photos that are either aircraft (other than 293 Sqn) that were visiting or were actually based elsewhere on the airfield. This one is of a USAAF Beaufighter believed to have bEen taken at RAF Pomigliano near Naples, Italy. I have seen pictures of Mosquitos and Spitfires in thiese markings but I dont think I have ever seen any other Beaus. Am I demonstrating my ignorance or is this a pretty rare example? It still carries its RAF serial ND275 and was taken between March and June 1944.

More to come.

http://i47.tinypic.com/25qq6hs.jpg

QP

brokenlink

2nd Apr 2013, 19:45

Interesting, Beaufighter ND275 is shown as being with 301 Ferry Training Unit (FTU) but a date is sadly not available.

DuoSi

9th Apr 2013, 17:22

This is my father-in-law, Harry Brown, who was a Wireless operator/Air Gunner on 293 Sqn:

http://i1360.photobucket.com/albums/r641/Michael_Stringer1/Harry1_zpscfbbfd69.jpg

He was part of this crew:

http://i1360.photobucket.com/albums/r641/Michael_Stringer1/crew_zps309a075b.jpg

Front Row L-R Douglas Stembridge, Alf Rawlings, Ken "Wambo" Warmsley, Back Row Bob Birch, Harry Brown, Clive Hogan

The pilot, Flt Lt Rawlings, was the only officer in the crew. Clive Hogan was the navigator and the other four were all wireless operators and/or air gunners. From the nature of the work it seems likely that having lots of eyes looking outside were pretty important.

Here is another picture of some of the crew in front of their aircraft:

http://i1360.photobucket.com/albums/r641/Michael_Stringer1/boat_zps4a4f41d3.jpg

The lifeboat was slung under the fuselage, half in and half out of the bomb bay.

Other names Harry remembers are:
Tony Goldspink
Alan Foxcroft
? Rose
? Heywood
John Close
Bob Coleman
Ron Wigham
John Browm
Harry Day
Sid Cottam

He remembers that when they joined the squadron they had to fly their Warwicks out to North Africa, leaving Redruth and timing the flight so that they would be over the Bay of Biscay in darkness, to arrive in Rabat (Morocco) before moving on to Blida. After that he says that various elements of the squadron were detached to different airfields as they followed the war through Italy, staying close to where their services were likely to be needed.

Finally, here is a picture of what we think is the same aircraft posted above by Que Pee, which Harry was aboard when it ditched. This picture is not too clear I'm afraid, but it shows the salvage crew at work on it some time later. Note the person on top of the D/F housing!

http://i1360.photobucket.com/albums/r641/Michael_Stringer1/warwick_zps199269ff.jpg

QuePee

11th Apr 2013, 00:40

DuoSi,

Do you know which Warwick was involved in the beach landing in your previous post ???

QP

DuoSi

11th Apr 2013, 12:08

I've afraid not. He had to hand his logbook in when he was demobbed and only found out he could reapply for it too late - it had been destroyed by then.

Next time I see Harry I'll have a close look at the original photo and see if I can make anything out.

JulianPB

20th Apr 2013, 07:50

Hi all,

Apologies for the delay getting back but it's been an insanely busy few weeks.

Had a word with my Dad but he did say that it was a long time ago and his memory is hazy beyond the info already provided. However, he did say that he has a book that contained a lot of info that would be of interest as it is based on the official squadron records with the limitation that it only covers ASR and only mentions pilots that were recorded as actually having rescued someone, i.e. it's very Walrus-centric.

Beyond Courage: Air Sea Rescue by Walrus Squadrons in the Adriatic, Mediterranean and Tyrrhenian Seas 1942-1945: Amazon.co.uk: Norman L. R. Franks: Books

I also have some hand written notes from him but there in storage so I'll have to recover them first.

Will be back when I find stuff,

All the best,

Julian

peterhillt

20th Apr 2013, 07:50

re Warwick fire; Cpl Johnny Colston was the armourer. I was on board and left aircraft very quickly!
Pancake Warwick occurred daylight flight test. P/O Lawson-Tancred was pilot.
S/Ldr Pye was CO. No Sgt. Pye.

QuePee

21st Apr 2013, 20:56

Peter,

This just keeps getting better. Many thanks for taking the time to join the forum and provide your valuable pieces of info, they all help to complete the picture.

As for Mr Pye,it was a little difficult to read my fathers hand writing in one or two places in his diaries and it certainly looked like his rank was Sgt. However thinking about it I bet there were not many pilots of Sgt rank that had their own "personal" Hurricane so a Sqn Ldr certainly fits the bill better.

Many thanks for pointing this out.

QP

peterhillt

22nd Apr 2013, 00:20

Hi again!
I was with 293 from formation at Blida to end at Pomigliano.
Bases: Bone, Pomigliano, Foggia and back to Pomigliano. Various Walrus detachments including Pisa and Udine. Will look up and post pics.
GREETING TO ALL 293ers, Peter.

QuePee

30th Apr 2013, 00:35

DuoSi,

I have just obtained some of the Form 540 and 541 records for 293 Sqn for the year 1944 (I will have to get the rest asap) and I see that the crew you listed in your earlier post seemed to have stayed together for most of that year at least. They certainly flew a large number of sorties but a only a very small percentage resulted in anything being seen let alone anyone being rescued. I guess thats the way it is with ASR work.

Let me know if you are interested in any details of any of your father in law operations and I will see if I can help.

Regards

QP

cyflyer

30th Apr 2013, 03:47

I have just obtained some of the Form 540 and 541 records for 293 Sqn for the year 1944 (I will have to get the rest asap)
Available from the PRO at Kew. You've been there QP ?

QuePee

30th Apr 2013, 16:10

Cyflyer,

No unfortunately its a rather long way from where I am now in fact about 4000 miles. Actually I found that they are available online for a relatively small fee. Its a wonderful resource, however as the charge is per month it is all to easy to get carried away and find out that you have spent rather too much.

QP

DuoSi

30th Apr 2013, 19:02

QP

You bet I'm interested! PM on its way.

Your observations bear out what Harry told us - there was a lot more search than rescue! The many hours of searching and patrolling tend to be glossed over.

Harry said he never used his guns in anger, though there were times when they were shot at by German AA when searching near to the coast.

beachy1956

10th Aug 2013, 18:30

Hi
My dad was visiting today and we were watching a dvd about the history of the airforce. Whilst watching, I though I'd do a bit of searching on the internet and low and behold, your pictures turned up. We were both SO amazed to see the photos of my dad the "un-named armoured" who set the plane on fire! He also has a much smaller picture of the plane, nowhere near as good as yours. My dad is Jack Colston, now 91 years of age, living in Hampshire. He was so thrilled to see all the pictures and remembered many of the faces, but not many names! ..... just one or two. If anyone out there remembers him, it would be lovely to hear from you. He remembers very fondly his time in the RAF and as children, we often heard the story about the plane. Fortunately, as it wasn't his fault he wasn't severely reprimanded, maybe also due to the fact that he was a very good sportsman. He said today that he used to be ferried around in a plane to get to the football matches! When I took him home, we found all his old photos from that time, so I will scan and post some of the better ones. A lot are very small, one of which is the whole squadron which you also posted. By the way, he is fourth from left in the bottom row on the photo in front of the plane. Fantastic!

QuePee

12th Aug 2013, 15:59

Beachy1956,

This thread continues to amaze me. Its been running for quite some time now and although it seemed to have received only a luke warm reception at the time it has brought me numerous additional photographs and also put me in touch with many 293 Sqn members. Of course they are getting fewer each year but its always good to know that some are still around.

I have been trying to put as many names to the faces in my Dads photos as possible and if your father can remember the names of any I would be extremely grateful to hear of them. As far as photos are concerned, most of the ones I have been scanned from small prints, some only about 1.5 inches square or so. Modern scanners can do wonderful things with these pictures and I am always available to scan them for you if you would like.

Of course I would love the chance to see some more pictures from 293 so I look forward to your next post.

Please give my best regards to your father, I just wish I was in the UK so that we could arrange to meet up.....

QP

aeronavale2009

28th Nov 2014, 00:30

I've been researching airborne lifeboats for several years and was surprised that I had not found this thread before. I have really enjoyed reading the various posts and the photographs are especially interesting. Magazine articles and other forums usually include the same stock-standard shots of Warwick and lifeboats. Would appreciate seeing anything else anyone can post. Thanks again for past contributions.

QuePee

28th Nov 2014, 15:16

Aeronavale2009, Please see your PMs. I have responded.

QP

QuePee

1st Dec 2014, 20:06

Aeronavale2009 you have another PM.

QP

Justin Hayward

19th May 2020, 19:52

Hi i have just discovered this thread whilst trying to research my late grandfather F/Lt Brian Hayward's RAF history. I dont know much but I have a few bits referencing 293 squadron. I have a few photos that I am sorting through and will upload soon. I have enjoyed reading your stories and now feel I'm heading in the right direction with my research

Aimeeg1986

16th Oct 2021, 14:25

Hi all I was looking in to my family tree and I found out my great great uncle was in 293 squadron, I don’t have much info so would appreciate it if anyone knows anything about him? Thank you in advance.
below is what I have…..

Warrant Officer 1206552 (tel:1206552) George William BLACKWELL. Royal Air Force VR of 293 Squadron (air-sea rescue) at Pomigliano, Italy. Son of Frederick William and Annie Blackwell, of Wootton Bassett, Wiltshire husband of Dorothy Margaret Blackwell, of Wootton Bassett. (Memorial has George B Blackwell) On the 20 November 1944 he was flying along with Flight Sergeant 1582607 (tel:1582607)Geoffrey Cooper in a (Flying Boat) Supermarine Walrus II X9565 when it disappeared (no cause of death was found) He was aged 35 years. At rest in Bolsena War Cemetery, Italy.

QuePee

19th Oct 2021, 09:26

My father was in 293 Sqn for most of his time in N Africa and Italy (I started this thread many years ago). and I have just reviewed his diary entries for the period around the 20th November 1944, nothing is recorded on the actual day of the accident that is of any relevance, but his complete entry for Saturday 25th November 1944 is as follows;

The news was confirmed today that the four members of the Walrus which crashed off Pianosa on the 20th lost their lives. The aircraft was taking off towards the island but it struck the beach and overturned. The crew comprised of two members of the Squadron, an RNVR sub lieutenant and an army Captain belonging to the Intelligence Corp. Serviceability still poor, 2 out of seven Warwick. Station CO should have inspected the billets this morning but evidently he didn’t turn up. No mail. Still keeping up my daily letter writing.

There is no mention of your relartive by name unfortunately.

Hope this helps a little.

QP

QuePee

19th Oct 2021, 09:31

Further to my last posting, another entry in my fathers diary dated Monday 27th November 1944 indicates that:

Mr. Chesney received a Signal this morning requesting his attendance at Borgo aerodrome tomorrow for the Court of Inquiry into the loss of Walrus X9565.

I only posted the relevant part of the diary entry, the rest being personal and lastly Mr Chesney was the Squadron Engineering Officer at the time.

QP

QuePee

19th Oct 2021, 09:47

I keep finding more snippets. The following are the entries in the Squadron ORBs.

https://cimg9.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/1263x136/capture_16dd1e52b855e7851b4f379b72c1b45574cdfe94.jpg

https://cimg1.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/1289x114/capture_cefa1f337d502bf1ce336a4ee5944d8a9bd0143a.jpg

https://cimg6.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/1272x282/capture_c850abe986ff25f1efe81f11ccbd47dfe58f7ea1.jpg

I hope these help your research.

Thats likely to be all I have on this accident.

QP

QuePee

12th Jul 2023, 05:35

Justin,

I have tried to send you a PM but it seems that your inbox is full, Could you do a bit of Spring Cleaning please so that we can communicate.

Many thanks

QP

megan

12th Jul 2023, 05:47

Justin doesn't have the necessary ten posts to use the PM function.

QuePee

13th Jul 2023, 05:36

Well that is very odd. He sent me a PM but when I tried to reply i received a message saying his inbox was full?

QP

Justin Hayward

25th Jul 2023, 17:06

I have been struggling with the PM's. My inbox is empty. All seems very strange. My email address is j_hayward77 @ Hotmail.co.uk (without the spaces)

Justin Hayward

5th Aug 2023, 15:10

@qeepee

Did you receive my email with the attached report?

longer ron

6th Aug 2023, 06:46

@qeepee

Did you receive my email with the attached report?

Justin - as posted by megan above - you need to have a post count of 10 to use PM's easily,just do a few more replies on here and you will soon be there.

QuePee

7th Aug 2023, 05:18

Justin,

Yes I did receive it, many thanks. I have been trying to send you a PM as I have some questions for you that probably wont interest anyone else on this thread. I will make contact after you have the requisite number of posts,

QP

Justin Hayward

7th Aug 2023, 05:27

Thanks quepee. I hope the note was of interest to you. I did try to share it here but was unable due to the post issue

JRDUKNZ

18th Aug 2023, 09:54

QuePee

25th Aug 2023, 08:14

Just found this thread when searching for information about Warwick ASR crews. I'm from the UK but spend time in New Zealand. Bought a copy of AP1234 in a charity book sale over there and found tucked into it a 1943 Navigators's log for a mission over the North Sea. Unit was the Warwick Training Unit and I have deduced base was Bircham Newton (or maybe Docking). Have been researching the Navigators history - he was from NZ - but have drawn a blank on the pilot he was often crewed with ultimately in North Africa and Italy later in 1943 and through 1944 as they moved from 283 to 293 and back to 284 Sqns. Is there anyone on this thread who might have any info on B.O.Gregg (pilot) (Canadian) , K.H Kearse (navigator) (NZ) and WOp/AG Morrow. Have consulted ORB's at National Archives at Kew (where there is a photograph of Officers of Squadron with Gregg and Kearse (and others) named)

As you might have guessed I have been researching my father's old squadron (293Sq) over many years and have accumulated quite a bit of material. Looking through some of the official records I see the names of the crew you mentioned cropping quite frequently. See the example below,

https://cimg2.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/1612x234/293_sq_856aac830d8353034c6d8841447845149eeeea07.jpg

This is just one example I picked out at random. If you need more examples please let me know.

QP

Justin Hayward

25th Aug 2023, 11:50

Can anyone tell me how I would go about finding out a service number please

JRDUKNZ

25th Aug 2023, 12:02

Thanks very much for the reply. Good to see that others can find records of F/O Gregg and his Warwick crew including F/O (later F/L) Kenneth Kearse the navigator from New Zealand. I had picked up references to them in the 293 (and other) sqn ORB's from UK National Archives at Kew and coincidentally am going back there next week to view some of the RAF Bircham Newton ORB's which have not been digitised. I'm especially interested in the period from June 1943 when the Warwick Training Unit was set up , through Sept 1943 (when the navigator's log I found was dated) until Oct 1943 when Kearse (and the others) joined 283 Sqn (They moved to 293 in November 1943 I believe).

Also coincidentally I received this week a copy of a book ("All Weather Mac" - the autobiography of Wg Cdr R (Robert) McIntosh) who, amongst other things in a long , distinguished and varied RAF and civil flying career, commanded the Warwick Training Unit until Dec 1943. Since I had bought the book "blind" I was surprised but pleased to find it includes a group photo - 100+Officers and NCO's - with a smattering of darker blue (Australian) uniforms and definitely one American. I'm hoping the original might be in one of the non-digitised Bircham Newton ORB's I have yet to consult.

I'm also hoping that consulting the non-digitised ORB's would also help me work out whether the early Sept mission I have the navigators log for was actually flown, not in a Warwick of the WTU , but either in a Wellington or a Hudson given that only 4 crew numbers are named. I have dismissed the possibility of it being in an Anson as I consulted someone in NZ who owns / flies a Mk 1 Anson over there. His advice was that he could not fly at the combination of speeds and duration shown on the log!

JRDUKNZ

25th Aug 2023, 12:16

I'm certainly not an expert on the generalities of finding out RAF personnel's history but in the context of the narrow field I have become interested in of late, and assuming the person was in 293 Sqn, then a place I start with would be the notifications of personnel on the squadron which were regularly submitted to higher authorities together with notifications of movements in and out of the squadron. They are in the ORB's and the appendices. Generally the service number would be attached to the person's name . Even in the logs of missions flown the service numbers are sometimes given - that's how I found out the Canadian and NZ service number of those I was researching.

QuePee

25th Aug 2023, 12:39

Justin,

If you require the servgice number of a 293 Sq person, I may be able to help. The ORB quite often lists these for aircrew and sometimes ground crew as well.

QP

JRDUKNZ

25th Aug 2023, 15:24

Justin,

If you require the servgice number of a 293 Sq person, I may be able to help. The ORB quite often lists these for aircrew and sometimes ground crew as well.

QP

Justin,

Further to QuePees response , I am at the National Archives on Tuesday afternoon and could take look at some files if the answer hasn't been found by then. However in doing that it would be helpful to any search I could do in ORB's (digitised and not digitised) to know the approximate start / finish dates in 293 Sqn of the person.

Justin Hayward

27th Aug 2023, 15:04

Justin,

Further to QuePees response , I am at the National Archives on Tuesday afternoon and could take look at some files if the answer hasn't been found by then. However in doing that it would be helpful to any search I could do in ORB's (digitised and not digitised) to know the approximate start / finish dates in 293 Sqn of the person.

That would be brilliant and most appreciated thank you. My grandfather was flight lieutenant Brian Hayward. As far as I can work out he joined 293 in 1943 straight from university. His dob was 20/06/1921 if this helps

QuePee

27th Aug 2023, 16:46

Justin,

I have spent some time looking through the 293Sq ORB, initially for the HQ at Pomigliano for 1943 and 1944 and found one entry for your father on 17 August 1944. He flew a Warwick back to Foggia on this date after a spell of leave. This led me to the Foggia detachment ORB and Flying Officer Haywood makes many appearances in this record. See below for examples. It seems his service number was 124412.

https://cimg3.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/1630x60/293_c_cdf25bc2a9e19e6a0fd701520615e6a309e94b48.jpg
https://cimg1.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/1666x55/293_b_08a34bc65d5b844d90071a7024e229857cbc530f.jpg

Hope this provides you with the info that you require. I have the full ORB on file and please let me know if you require anything further.

QP

Justin Hayward

27th Aug 2023, 18:12

Thanks so much for that. Until today all I really had was one peice of paper about a rescue my grandfather was involved in. Now with this service number I can really begin my search. You have all been so helpful and any information you can share with me I would really appreciate. Thanks

sycamore

27th Aug 2023, 19:15

Jh,you can get your g/fathers` Service Record via Gov.uk...

QuePee

28th Aug 2023, 11:54

Justin,

I have just sent you a PM, I believe this time it has gone through OK.

QP

JRDUKNZ

29th Aug 2023, 18:30

I'm just back from Kew and can confirm that I found various mentions in the non-digitised records - not as it happens of 293 Sqn but of the Warwick Training Unit (which became the Air Sea Rescue (ASR) Training Unit in October 1943. Now that I'm back in front of my computer I can see that QuePee has replied already but I had indeed also found that F/O B. S. Hayward had service number 124412 and was was part of the "Main Party" when the Unit moved from Bircham Newton to Thornaby. After that the Unit moved to Thorney Island in early December 1943 and F/O Hayward was noted as flying Warwick aircraft Y1 to Thorney Island with F/Sgt Grant as Observer (navigator?) and Sgt Cottam as WOp/Ag. He then appears in the record on 8th Feb 1944 as "detached to Hurn pending posting overseas". The final mention I found today in teh non digitised ORB was on 11 March 1944 where F/O Hayward was noted as "ceased to be detached to RAF Hurn on posting to No1 BPD" - BPD=Base Personnel Depot I believe and RAF Hurn was (according to Wikipedia) " the final airfield in England for aircraft flying to Morocco for the North African and Italian campaigns, avoiding France, Spain and Portugal airspace" and the home of "No. 3 Overseas Aircraft Despatch Unit" ( I don't know that dates for this Unit but I did observe in the records today that many (all??) of the ASR Warwick crews went to Hurn "prior to despatch overseas".)

Hope this helps and is of interest!
.

Justin Hayward

29th Aug 2023, 20:11

Susie 152

27th Nov 2023, 20:15

It’s great to come across this thread, and in particular Aimeeg1986’s post. Geoffrey Cooper was my 1st cousin once removed and I’m just starting my research. It’s very interesting to read the thread and all of the contributions so far.

QuePee

28th Nov 2023, 11:04

GrassRootsFlying

6th Dec 2023, 10:19

QuePee

7th Dec 2023, 09:29

Hi.I am researching 1067480 James Alfred SLATER and wondered if you could confirm if he was the J A Slater who, along with Sgt Lydford, was captured during the rescue incident in late 1944 as detailed in Norman Franks book Chapter 7 flying Walrus L2223. I have had his RAF Long Service medal in my collection for some years after finding it on an Australian dealers catalogue.
Many thanks
David

Good morning GrassRootsFlying,

I have a little bit of digging on these two gentlemen and I believe that 1067480 W/O Slater is indeed the same man as referenced in Normas book. The reasons for saying this are as follows;

The ORB confirms the story and the names and ranks of the two airmen concerned
My fathesr diaries also confirm the basics of the story although he doesnt mention the names.
The monthly squadron Officers And Airmen Retuens show a rather indistinct reference to W/O Slater, copy below. It is very difficult to read but I think I can decipher the name and number.
W/O Slater 1067480 is recorded as being in a POW camp in Poland as is a Sgt Lydford. Unfortunately there is no record of the capture date.

Thats is all I have found so far, I will continue searching....just in case more info comes to light.

QP

https://cimg2.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/1277x112/capture_1_11b001cf94ba2d42e03a2a3a15a6390f8e1c2581.jpg
https://cimg3.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/608x443/capture_2_a5c778c5915920505597c7a10fa804044c14b3a4.jpg
https://cimg4.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/577x447/capture_3_36c6404181c70988e6b4351805cc05f1fd27940d.jpg