What did you have to give up? [Archive]

Homesick-Angel

10th Aug 2010, 00:01

Something that came to mind the other day through another thread was how much I had to sacrifice to get my CPL, and It got me wondering what the rest of you went through to get yours.

I came into aviation pretty late in life, and in fact it was a career change, so the first thing was to stop doing what I had always done, and this was no easy task with my friends (and my head) telling me I was crazy-too old-not finished where I was-insane to let go of the career Id built etc etc etc.In the end I said bugger it Im gonna do it anyway.Just making the decision to go for it was probably the hardest bit.

I didn't want it to take five years so:
For a start I had to sell my car to pay for some of the training and replace it with a car that most people including the police mistook for an abandoned wreck, move out of my house and back in with Parents(at 30 years of age-fortunately their pretty cool), Take loans, max credit cards, work two jobs, one at night while trying to self study full time and quite a lot more that is too boring to write about.

Strangely, it didnt and doesnt feel like I gave away too much??!!.Id probably do it all the same way again (except this time with rich parents and a fat stock portfolio). I will say that I recently sat down and roughly added up how much it all cost... I... will.... never.... do.... that.... again..:eek:

Exaviator

10th Aug 2010, 00:30

Mine was a straight forward process. I took my monthly income, subtracted essential living costs, then divided the balance by the hourly rate of aircraft hire. Then did that amount of flying - everything else was completely put on hold until I had gained my comm and first flying job. :ok:

SgtBundy

10th Aug 2010, 00:48

Just chipping in on this. At 30 I am taking my first steps into getting my license (very first, effects of controls lesson was done on Sunday). It is something I have always wanted and but never had the funds for. Now I have decided its time, and I will work my way through the cost regardless, even if it means limited hours and some financial pain. I originally wanted to go the CPL route, but from what I can gather the money isn't there that would allow me to do a career change and the upkeep seems prohibitive.

The thing is, now that I am just looking at doing a PPL, I wonder if it is worth it. My parents, wife and anyone I talk to about learning to fly come back to "its a bit expensive isn't it?". My thought was once I get it it will be something my family can enjoy too, but it seems like being at the point where I could hire a 6 seat single (if at all possible) is a long way off, the cost is steeper than I thought and never mind their fears of flying in a small plane. The range of photos on the DG&P photo thread though do inspire me to do it though.

So, the question is, is it worth it if I don't have some way to subsidise the costs or truly make use of my skills? Any words of motivation out there or ideas for getting more out of the expense?

P.S. I am not really interested in RA just for the sport of it

mintpro172

10th Aug 2010, 01:05

hi, I had a few hiccups through my PPL and the day I sat the test all be it the second one I will ever forget it. Afterwords it is abit of a blur but I think back now and it was definately worth it all. I'm on my way to my CPL now and there has been a few hiccups too but I love flying. The feeling you do get when you get to go on your own, there is nothing like it. There is alot of money involved, but you only live once. Why do something you dont want to do and spend your life saying what if??:)

Art of Flying

10th Aug 2010, 01:07

Great topic Homesick Angel.

It is refreshing to read about the passion and the difficult decisions that need to be made upon entering Aviation. I am also currently a wannabe career changer (not from IT) and the journey has thus far has taken two years and the CPL seems no closer. However, I will not lose sight of the goal and the attraction of this industry for me are the constant challenges and the learning which is infinite. The reward of self improvement is worth the cost we are all ultimately willing to pay.

I am turning away from a rewarding career which involves travel to all parts of Australia and beyond, and perhaps replacing it with another career which involves a vast amount of travel, just not three months away from loved ones. Up the frequency but reduce the duration I say. With reference to friends suggesting that you are crazy, it is not them living your life and I am from a crazy industry in the world of entertainment.

I give up time to make things happen and that is hard work. I have discovered that if you do not regularly make the time, rust sets in and your skills both at the controls and mind processing do suffer.

Fortunately my wife is fully supportive of this endeavor (plus no kids!) and from what I have read lurking around PPRuNe, that the support of your loved ones can make or break the decision that we have made.

The finances are a reality of Aviation, therefore research of your FTO's is crucial to decipher $hite from Chanel. I am giving up opportunities to invest in more tangible assets, however, I am investing in my own life experience which will ultimately lead to a new career. It is up to the individual on how to calculate the Return on Investment.

At the end of the day, the skill set gained IMO worth what I am giving up as I am being genuine to myself (maybe selfish) and I will not look back in 10 years time with regret as to what might have been.

I fear that I would be giving up more if the opportunity passed me by.

AoF

Lodown

10th Aug 2010, 01:13

Damn! I thought I had to sacrifice. My parents had to put off their vacation to Hamilton Island for another week each year to get the extra lease money and cut back on the gardening help to bi-weekly to get me through. The managers of their car yards offered to help out with cash donations and I sold a few heifers from the property everytime I needed to get a flight test done. The accountant had a hard time too searching for all the deductions that were available from the ATO. All in all, it was tough going, but well worth it.

Omega471

10th Aug 2010, 01:23

When changing jobs to go flying, you can't forget to take into account what you would have earned if you stayed put. Best case scenario and not taking into account wages increases if you stayed put or went flying.

A 30 something professional considering the Advance Cadet Scheme.
Today earning $82K
Training costs $105K ($85K + 3 months lost wages)
Junior Pilot for 3 years $55K
Level 1 FO for 1 year $84K
Level 2 FO for 5 years $92K
Level 3 FO for 2 years $100K
Captain after 11 years $154K

The break even point if accepted today is approximately June 2024... :bored:

Try explainging that to your loving and understanding wife...

Omega471

10th Aug 2010, 01:28

Further to my last post, if you remain an FO and never make Captain.

Break even is around September 2031 :ok:

KRUSTY 34

10th Aug 2010, 01:33

Sgt Bundy.

Took my first lesson at 27, not dissimilar to you but back then I was considered to be an extremely late starter! Also, initially I wanted to do it for the sheer love of it. You know, model aircraft as a Kid, always looking up, longing for something that I felt was out of reach. At 26 I went to TAFE to complete my schooling and became friends with a guy who held a restricted PPL (as it was back then) and an aerobatic rating. That changed my life! HOOKED!

Mate It's like heroin, only some would argue, more expensive! After 2 years of private flying I realised that I would never be happy with the limited amount I could afford, and I just HAD to do it for a living. If I had any clue as to the difficulty and uncertainty of it all, I may have given up. Fortunately I persevered, and have no regrets. Well, mostly no regrets!

What did it cost me?

In a nutshell:

Every spare cent I had for 4 years.
Loss of any normal social life, working 2 sometimes 3 jobs.
My ski-boat!
An end to annual holidays.
Any chance of affording a mortgage.
My Marriage (fortunately no kids).And that was just up untill my first full-time flying job!

Was it worth it, on balance yes. It's why however, that I am incensed at the efforts of Airline managements (you know who they are) in continueing to erode the conditions of professional pilots, when by and large these arseh@les have absolutely no idea what we have gone through!

Jack Ranga

10th Aug 2010, 01:37

how much I had to sacrifice to get my CPL

They are not SACRIFICES boys and girls they are CHOICES

My choices were made with little advice on the state of the industry, the disgraceful pay and the way pilots behave when making decisions that will affect the newbies following them. Oh well, lesson learnt.

I haven't gone close to a return on the investment made and the opportunity cost is probably a significant amount paid off a home or investment property. (That's what my friends were doing when I was spending money on flying).

No regrets though, if I hadn't learnt a financial lesson through this process it would have been somewhere else! An enjoyable mistake!

You need to go into this with your eyes wide open and plenty of advice, understand the choices you are making.

Remember, they are your own CHOICES not SACRIFICES

Wanderin_dave

10th Aug 2010, 01:54

What did I give up???

My flying career.:suspect:

Work for a bank now. Funnily enough it has given me the option to pursue more enjoyable flying. I do miss flying the bigger faster machines though.

boardpig

10th Aug 2010, 02:23

Gave it up at the CPL/MCIR level to continue with IT. I now fly for pleasure and have a share in an aircraft, so the addiction is still there.

I simply refused to accept the T's and C's operators were offering. I get the feeling if more guys felt like this, the industry wouldn't be in the condition it's in.

BP.

HercFeend

10th Aug 2010, 02:28

I did my PPL in the UK in 2006 then emigrated to NZ. Didn’t fly for 2 years due starting a family, moving, job etc etc etc but knew from the first time I took to the air it was me.

Decided I couldn’t do what I was doing for the rest of my working days and the thought of not changing things and staying put depressed the cr*p out of me.

I self studied all the exams and passed the NZ PPL in 6 weeks and have since self studied and passed all the CPL exams. I’m working full time and flying part time – evenings, weekends & holidays. I’ve got the hours now so it’s into CPL revision ans prep for the flight test. After that an instructor rating and maybe even a job ;)

My family are very supportive, my wife’s 100% behind me and doesn’t care about this ‘break even’ bollox. It’s cliché but true – you’re only here once so why spend your life doing something you don’t want to just so you can ‘break even’!!!! A sad existence, regrets and a whole bunch of ‘what ifs’ is all that’s at the end of that route.......

I've got no regrets and I never will - if it doesn't work out for whatever reason at least I gave it a shot and it won't be one of my life's 'what ifs'........

Just go for it, you’ll regret it if you don’t!!!

Fly-by-Desire

10th Aug 2010, 02:29

....:{ :rolleyes:

Nadsy

10th Aug 2010, 02:57

Like most of you, I wanted to be a pilot since I was 3. For many reasons, I didn't start till I was 27, but when I had the choice to have a crack at it, I chose (quite rightly pointed out by Jack Ranga) to leave behind a few things:
- Small IT company;
- Small fishing boat;
- Big sports bike;
- Small fiance (I'd be lying if I didn't mention this was mildly mutual);
- Many hobbies (Camping, Scuba Diving, Travel, Fishing).

Up to PPL level, I did it as a weekend warrior, but didn't like the lack of consolidation, and so for my CPL, FIR and ME-CIR I saved up, took time off from an IT Contract position each time and did it in a block.

The IT work funds the passion, but then you've got a foot in each industry, and it's hard to give up the cash... especially when the wife (and 2 y.o.) remind you that the $32K spent last year on flying could have been for a house deposit. At least they haven't left me yet! That's until I let them know which outback town we're moving to to build some hours!

It sometimes does get tough, and there are times when I think 'why am I doing this' (It's the hardest I've ever had to work)... but it only takes getting in the air (albeit for $714/hr in a C310), for all those thoughts to go away...
And you know what...? Perhaps with a few minor changes, I'd do it all again. I don't think many are in this game without a love and passion for it... There are not too many other reasons!

travelator

10th Aug 2010, 03:24

Omega471, I hate to burst your bubble but you will never advance beyond "junior pilot" with the Jetstar cadetship as you will only get your ATPL if you buy the command hours required. They will not give them to you. Also don't expect to be employed with them after the 6 years. Factor that in!

MadMadMike

10th Aug 2010, 03:33

Don't let anyone fool you, the sacrifices start after the CPL not before...

girl with a stick

10th Aug 2010, 03:34

What a thought-provoking topic...

I got hooked at 35, and had such a bad experience I didn't fly again for two years....but it niggled at me, every day. Life got in the way, but eventually, I cleared a space and went for it. It was a difficult path to PPL (three schools, eleven instructors!) but what I lacked in talent I made up for in determination.

Post PPL, I decided I couldn't stop, that I needed to know more, and went on to CPL.

Here's what it "cost" me:

- sold my small business (a book shop) to pay for the CPL
- sold my house in a beach-side suburb and bought a cheaper one, (under
the flight path) so I could live off the difference
- gave up my social life and in the process estranged myself from some old
friends (those who glazed over at constant av-talk)
- sold lots of fabulous (and now unnecessary) frocks and shoes and replaced
them with headsets, gps, and maps
- for the next rating, will have to sell my car

But, here's what I've gained:

- a private pilot's licence
- a tail wheel endo
- the ability to hire an aircraft and fly anywhere in Oz
- a regular column in an aviation mag
- new friends, whose tolerance for aviation topics equal mine

None of it is a "sacrifice" as every part of the learning has been amazing.
I'm not waiting for life to start, I'm living it.

Ipecac

10th Aug 2010, 03:41

The best way to make a small fortune in aviation is to start with a large one. With that in mind if your dreams of flying include sitting on a fat captains salary then keep dreaming. The hours are long, the pay is absymal and it plays havok with your social life.

After getting my PPL in NZ I left my job to train full time. Got a CPL, a MEIR and an instructor rating and a sizeable loan to boot. In just over two years I have gone through five different jobs in five different cities. I've been fired for asking for minimum wage, made redundant twice and had to leave my last job because (even with a second job) I couldn't afford the cost of living (if I can find a way of not having to pay rent or feed myself I'll be golden :}). And somewhere in amongst all that, flying also cost me my wife and is affecting my relationship with my son.

At present I'm still looking for another flying job and I'm hoping that this time it'll last more than 6 months. Would I do it all again?....

You bet I would!:ok: Being a commercial pilot is a lifestyle, not a career (for me atleast) and I can't see myself doing anything else.

Ipecac

Homesick-Angel

10th Aug 2010, 04:03

Something I forgot to mention.
I never made the choice to get into aviation about the money.I researched a lot before I got into it, and unlike some young wide-eyed kids, I knew I would be on crappy wages and poor conditions for some time. I did it because I was bored and stale with what I was doing and was becoming a pain in the A#se to myself and the people around me.

The old line about working hard, making money, buying a house, getting married, having kids and then trying to enjoy retirement when Im too bloody old to enjoy it has never been a goal for me..If Im happy doing what Im doing and Im making enough to get by then Im fine.And then work doesnt feel like a Prison sentence.

If in 10 years, I feel differently and I dont enjoy flying, then Il do something else and I wont see the costs involved getting there as money wasted.At least Im not Shooting it up my arm or blowing it on pokies and I love it right now..There's a lot of cool things to do out there.Nothing has to be so black and white.

j3pipercub

10th Aug 2010, 04:26

Choice:

To follow in my hero's footsteps and gain a CPL and see where I'd end up.

Sacrifice:

-1st wife (Was married at 19 and in hindsight, probably a good thing)
-Social life for 4-5 years while I saved enough to pay for it all.
-About 5 years behind all of my school friends re: Money in the bank or amount paid off mortgage.

Gains:

-It sure beats working for a living.
- Am not an office drone catching the same train to work 5 days a week until I retire and die shortly after.
- Pictures worth 1000's words soooooo...

http://i390.photobucket.com/albums/oo342/j3pipercub/IMG_0143.jpg

http://i390.photobucket.com/albums/oo342/j3pipercub/IMG_0257.jpg

http://i390.photobucket.com/albums/oo342/j3pipercub/IMG_0951.jpg

http://i390.photobucket.com/albums/oo342/j3pipercub/IMG_0964.jpg

http://i390.photobucket.com/albums/oo342/j3pipercub/IMG_0362.jpg

http://i390.photobucket.com/albums/oo342/j3pipercub/P1020984.jpg

http://i390.photobucket.com/albums/oo342/j3pipercub/P1020592.jpg
Would I so it again, hell yes.

B4F83
but now im late 20s with everything ahead of me

I hope 27 doesn't count as late twenties... where did my youth go...:{

I agree with the statement that it should best be done whilst you're single though. And Mike has the most valid point.

Hot High Heavy

10th Aug 2010, 04:29

I have to agree with you Homesick Angel. I did the 10 years in an office job thing, earning great cash, living a good life in inner Melbourne in a nice house with a nice car and nothing really to worry about except where to go out for dinner. Working crazy hours sucked but the cash kinda made it worth it. I turned 30 though and had a 'quarter life crisis' and wondered if there was anything else to life apart from this. I'd got a PPL in 1995 but never kept it current due to the cost but always thought about it and wondered if one day i could get back into it.

I decided to go for it and sold the house to pay for the lessons, changed to a less demanding job and went all out to get the CPL. The life completely turned around but it seemed worth it. At the start of this year i sold all my belongings, bought a cheap car, broke up with the missus and moved to the NT. I was lucky enough to pick up a charter job with an operator fairly quickly. I'm just getting by from week to week and working pretty hard but it has actually energised me after being stagnant for so long. There's no better feeling than being paid to fly after throwing so much cash into it during training. I'm 33 now and wish i'd done it earlier as there are lots of young guys that are so much further ahead but it is what it is.

I've got a long way to go and have no idea where ill end up or what ill be doing. That said, despite all that has been given up its still been worth it and if at the end of the day it stops being fun, i can always head south and drive a desk again. Its better to have a crack though than die wondering (wow that was very 'zen'!).

I think the theme along here is that we all have this addiction to our profession that most outsiders just don't understand!

HHH

M14_P

10th Aug 2010, 11:06

The fact of the matter is, if you have to ask yourself over and over agian, is it worth it is it worth it, it clearly ISN'T worth it so don't bother spending the money!! PPL, CPL whatever. If you want it, if you are passionate about it and driven by success and achievement whether you want to instruct in Tomahawks or fly 767s, you will find a way to achieve that.

I did my PPL and CPL over 3.5 years, working fulltime and studying part time. I am self employed, running a non-aviation company and have a contract flying company, pays for all my currency costs, I get to teach guys how to fly, how to fly aerobatics (most important, people who actually want to learn and pay for it themselves), do scenic flying in antique biplanes, work on a biplane restoration project of my own, building our first house and frankly, I too, like a few others here am glad I didn't pursue flying as a fulltime occupation. Having said that I know heaps of people that have made the most of it and are having an absolute ball in all corners of the world.
All that matters is you are happy, who cares about the rest. Flying for me, is a passion first, and a job second. And it will never swap round, the day it does, is the day I walk away from it.

gettin' there

10th Aug 2010, 23:57

I agree with the statement that it should best be done whilst you're single though.

Not neccessarily. The other half just has to be VERY understanding. Before we got serious I told my partner that flying was something that I was going to do, that it would involve spending rediculous sums of money, at one stage i was working three jobs to pay for CPL, not having the social life that our friends were (we'd just left school) and probably me going and living in the middle of no where for a few years.

She didn't run away then and is still around despite the fact that we have spent the last 18 months living in seperate states so we can both pursue our careers. Got married last year and a week later I was back in the NT while she stayed in SYD. We've spent less than four weeks actually together since been married 10 months ago. Friends all reckon we're crazy.

Id be lying if I said that it wasn't tough on both of us and that at times I hadn't thought about giving it away to go back home, but we both know that in the scheme of things a couple of years isn't that long and eventually one of us will land a good job where the other one is. At least I have somone to share it with (even if it is only on the phone) and it is nice to have somone to talk to about non aviation stuff so you can keep things in perspective when you have a crappy day.

I know im really lucky and for a lot of people it would never work but its not impossible. I know of two other guys in similar situations too and they seem to make it work.