China Southern WA

[broden]

Have heard that you have new masters and that all is not well. Was thinking of applying for an instructors position. what do you think?

[P.O.M]

I have also heard that things are not well after the Cannuks joined in... :ooh:

Management changes that have removed the CFI and rumours that they have a disspensation from CASA for pilots to do more than 900hrs a year... :hmm:

Would be interesting to hear from someone what the score is...

P.O.M:ok:

[broden]

So does anyone know what the money is like? I hear they have a base outside of Perth. Whats it like?

[gas-chamber]

As far as instructing goes, the money was OK if you flew the hours. But I am told it has been reduced. Why not ask someone who is still there? Also ask what they think of the new management culture versus the old. Do your homework.

[The Green Goblin]

Management changes that have removed the CFI and rumours that they have a disspensation from CASA for pilots to do more than 900hrs a year...

Not hard to get, most GA companies I have operated under had a part 5 exemption allowing 1000 hours per year. Catch was they were limited to 90 hours a month.

Most scenic operators in the Kimberley don't take the exemption as they need the 100 hours a month in the dry and don't get close to the 900 hours a year with the quite times in the build.

[Mach E Avelli]

How can an instructor realistically do more than 900 hours of FLIGHT instruction in a year? Thinking the time it takes to brief those whose English is not that flash, then fly, then debrief, then fill in the paperwork. For every hour flown, it takes at least two on the ground to do a proper job of it. So 900 flight hours translates to 2700 duty hours. Divide by 46 working weeks comes out at 58.6 hours duty a week. If CASA condone any extension beyond 900 flight hours (given that there is also a daily limit of 6 hours instruction), they are not serious about upholding flying standards. They should also be very seriously concerned about fatigue management. Any instructor doing more than 750 flight hours a year is either not doing proper briefings and debriefings and has found a way to get out of writing up training reports, or is on some performance-enhancing pills. Can I have some too?

[witwiw]

Management changes that have removed the CFI

Was that GB?

[manymak]

What is the pay there now with new management?

[puff]

Mach most of the 'sausage factories' have theory instructers that 'mass brief' the students so that all the instructor has to do is fly with them and de-brief - agreed that the paperwork will take sometime to do but it's not a 'strict' lesson as you do in a 'normal' school.

Still instructing is generally not a place you associate with max hours because of the extensive ground paperwork required.

[43Inches]

Mach most of the 'sausage factories' have theory instructers that 'mass brief' the students so that all the instructor has to do is fly with them and de-brief - agreed that the paperwork will take sometime to do but it's not a 'strict' lesson as you do in a 'normal' school.

Thats why its called a "mass brief".

The instructor still has to conduct a pre-flight briefing on the specifics of the lesson flight and desired outcomes. After the flight the de-brief should be extensive. Even with mass briefings conducted by others you should be spending at least the same amount of time briefing/debriefing as flight time.

At schools with less structured training such as aero clubs etc the mass brief and pre-flight are sometimes combined on the day(or very abreviated). This generally leads to the student being overloaded with information which they have little time to assymilate and study prior to jumping into the aircraft (or if heavily abreviated half the flight is wasted explaining what is happening).

[puff]

They 'should' 43 inches but I think most that have worked in the foreign sausage factories is the entire process is done more with $$ in mind than any real standards. CPL is just a paperwork exercise so they can head off for jet ground school - they will never fly a lightie again after MECIR flightest for most of them.

[gas-chamber]

GB wasn't removed. He quit to have a vacation. CFI removed because not a complete yes man like the replacement.
Mass briefings all very well if students understand Eengrish.

[stockstandard]

The base out of Perth is Merredin. And it's a hole, closely in par with that of the superpit in Kal.

[broden]

Somebody said you were paid more to be there. Is it worth it?

[stockstandard]

Not anymore, i hear the pay has been cut. It's not worth travelling from the eastern states, even from perth for that matter to work there.

[43Inches]

the entire process is done more with $$ in mind than any real standards.
This is for management to worry about not line pilots. They will only care about the flow of students as they expect the instructor to get the students to a minimum standard in a certain time frame. The easiest way to control the quality of new students is to keep going with students until they are ready and recommend termination of the ones that are not progressing. If you don't compromise on standard they won't compromise on selection criteria, it will cost them money.


CPL is just a paperwork exercise so they can head off for jet ground school


and,


they will never fly a lightie again after MECIR flightest for most of them.


Shows the line instructors attitude towards his job, it is up to the instructor to set the standard. If you don't think a student is ready don't put them up for test.

[newcomer]

CPL is just a paperwork exercise so they can head off for jet ground school

No its not, its taking away there solo privilegs making the skies safer once again

[gas-chamber]

Maybe he worked for a couple outfits that went bellyup. Maybe that taught him not to put up with management crap. Maybe he is old enough to be intolerant of fools. Maybe he sees flying as an easy way to fund his sailing habit. Last word was he was retiring anyway.

[Mach E Avelli]

Retirement (semi) confirmed.

[ringbinder]

Maybe he worked for a couple outfits that went bellyup

Don't recall these going bust:

APNG
Air Naru (at least not in GB's time there)
Oz Jet (same comment as for Air Naru)
NJS
CASA
SAW (understand he left before their demise, but reality may be otherwise.)

Didn't he also have a stint with SQ at MCY - they're still operating.

so, possibly only Sky .................................

[Mach E Avelli]

Ringbinder, way off thread, and facts not quite right re who was where, and when, if at all. BUT consider inside knowledge of a company's financial position and business ethics also a factor in why a person might pack his footy and go home. Chief pilot shelf life can be inversely proportional a company's willingness and ability to be legally compliant and whether they look after all pilots - not just the CP. Plus a certain intolerance which grows as one ages. Add another one to your list. Iran Air on 31 December 1979. Something to do with a revolution.
btw, did you get your GEERS money after the SAW collapse? The AFAP 'done good' on that.
Anyway, shall we get back on topic now? What news of improvements at China Southern with CAE Canada running the show? Plenty young instructors interested in this, as they have been a training ground for the regionals for many years. How is the current turnover?

[ringbinder]

so M.E.A., which of those mentioned wasn't he at?

and which ones went bust whilst he was there?

just trying to clarify Gas Chambers statement.

[Angle of Attack]

I worked at China Southern in Merredin but 10 years ago, used to be award rates, has it changed? In 99 I got 35k as a Grade 2 instructor. How is it now?

[Red Jet]

Ringbinder,
Easy, isn't it - hiding behind a pseudonym on Prooone, trying to smear somebody elses name and reputation. Just that it's not gonna work, 'cause those of us who's got to know Gordo knows better. He doesn't suffer fools easily though, so I'd wager a bet that you are one of those fools that has been told to put up or shut up:}
If indeed GB has retired, it is our industry's loss and the gain of the Moreton Bay Sailing Club:ok: Happy tailwinds Gordo, you've forgotten more about flying airplanes than what most of us will ever know.

[ringbinder]

Nah, Redjet (a pseudonym, well fancy that!!!), not sullying anyone's name. Gas Chamber made a comment on crowds going bust and my point is that GB left them before (and if) that ever happened. I was challenging the correctness of GC's comment.

M.E.A. disputes he (GB) was at all of those outfits mentioned ... I believe otherwise. Can't understand how that is damaging to someone's reputation.

You're right, it is easy - just need to open your eyes and you'll see what I was querying.

[Mach E Avelli]

Well OK Ringbinder, dear girl, I can see you are agonising over this. So to put it to bed... Never at SQ, but assigned CASA FOI for them. Air Nauru did not technically go bust, but had their sole aeroplane repossessed by the bank and were grounded for 10 months. APNG - call it prescient. SAW & OzJet - definitely there on both occasions at the vinegar stroke.
Happy? Now, go enjoy your Harley. Not half the bike a Guzzi is, of course.

Back on topic, due to an inability to retain jet instructors, China Southern contracted the Citation flying out to REVESCO. There never was a career path to that anyway, as the CAAC require more jet minimum experience than the College was prepared to provide. They did it for one former CP but apparently it didn't work out too well.
Also, apparently most of their MECIR instructors now have gigs with the airlines. Great news.

[ringbinder]

Didn't need, nor interested in, a history lesson GB, just confirmation that GC was incorrect. Thanks.

Consider SQ retracted from the list.

[Mach E Avelli]

RB, in deference to your claimed lack of interest the history lesson has been condensed. But it seems to confirm old mate Gasman was right, not 'incorrect'.
Latest on China Southern is the Citations' days may be numbered. Apparently new Management is keen on King Air C-90's. If that is true, maybe it would be a good thing for the instructors. Not all that relevant for the students to have to learn all about condition levers and beta ranges etc, but I suppose their attitude will be much as it was for the Citation. Which generally was, get it over with to get back to China. Only a few showed any real interest in it. Those few were a pleasure to train.
What would be good for the students would be to get back to 50 hours ICUS on a more advanced aeroplane, which should be more affordable with C-90s.

[ivan ellerbai]

the history lesson has been condensed

Gordon, thank goodness for that.

[Monopole]

C90s :eek:

Heard that one when I was there 10-11 years ago. Around about Course 11. That was before the RWY at MDN was sealed and we did briefings in the dirt with sticks..... Sounds like not a lot has changed really.

[Icantfly]

Actually M.A.E, take it from someone who knows...

Phase 4 Mgr was not forced to quit. He had personal/family reasons for ASKING to be moved back to an Instructor role.

:ok:

[Mach E Avelli]

Comment deleted. Just shows not to listen to everything you hear in the pub. Apparently, the Koran does not prohibit alcohol at all . It merely offers the advice not to conduct business when p!ssed. Good advice, that.

[starship.looter]

Getting back to the original post for those considering instructing with CS and interested in the pay.

From what I know there’s quite a few unhappy campers since the change of management. New management have enforced a new pay scale and slashed all the well publicised allowances previously paid by CS. Those on the old scale (started prior to management change) still receive the same pay as before but management refuse to give them anything in writing to guarantee what they currently get, so how long they will receive it is any bodies guess. One can’t help but think that it will either only be until there are enough experienced lower paid newbies to fill the void by the inevitable walk out by the snr instructors if their pay is cut, or they will wait for the snr instructors to move on and employ all new instructors on the new scale with the expectation the newbies will be happy to have a job and sign whatever they are offered.

Any existing instructors paid on the old scale wanting to upgrade their instructor ratings are forced onto the new scale if they do, which offers considerably less in terms of the allowances that CS previously paid. This is the case even if they have been employed by CS for over a yr or more. So basically, if they’re wanting to upgrade from grade 3 to grade 2 or grade 2/1 single to mutli engine training they will get 5-15k a yr less (depending on grade & hrs flown) than they were previously on. This is despite the added responsibility and in the case of the Phase 4 guys forking out BIG $$$$ for their META, IFR approval, ect. Also, any new instructor goes on the new pay scale and will effectively be getting paid less then someone doing the exact same job as them but who started prior to the management change.

[P.O.M]

Its a shame that an operation like this that could be so good is, well... not.. :hmm:

The money, albeit due to allowances, started to resemble something worthwhile about 2yrs ago.
With the advent of the Ops Mgr who isn't and the Principle who couldn't manage his way out of a wet paper bag, the thought of the Canadians taking control was seen as a welcome change that hopefully would be for the better... it appears though from what I hear and read this sadly isn't the case, frying pan into the fire???:ugh:

There is always grumbling and talk of mass exodus within aviation, it seems, regardless of the company but sadly it seems there will always be people happy to accept whatever is around thus the cr@p operators seem to survive... :rolleyes:

Is this a reflection of an industry where the profits of operators (those without red tails or bodies) are so close to the bone competition prevents any decent operators from flourishing? :confused:

Good luck to those battling their way through at the moment...

P.O.M:ok:

[roundnround]

So many strong words 'Starship'

However, I beg to differ with your statements (all but about three of them actually) :=

They say that small amounts of information can be dangerous- because the ignorant fill in the gaps and hence there comes a rumour purported to be a fact.

:ugh:

P'raps you should double check with your 'source'?

Bah! But why bother, eh? This is, after all, a rumour mill- not a truth factory...


:E

[Monopole]

So what are the facts then roundnround :confused::confused:

Having spent too many of my piloting years at CS I am genuinely interested. Unfortunately it is starting to sound like the 'good 'ol days' was when Barney ran the show :E:yuk::yuk:

[Numbers Up]

So - The add has been out since Monday for 3's in Merredin. Is this from an exodus, progression, or expansion?? Anyone in the know??

[costia]

Im with Monopole here roundnround, if your [roundnround] all so wise with knowledge on the fact, just so i dont become the ignorant one please do, for not only my benefit but for everyone is this forum. please explain....???:rolleyes:

[SPEEDI]

Sorry for the bump but still havent been able to determine the pay they offer their instructors. Any other valid information from someone who is actually currently instructing there?
Thanks

[Numbers Up]

Anybody know how many positions were available in the AFAP add a couple of weeks back??. Anybody interviewed or hired yet?.

[P.O.M]

I gather they're still recruiting and bringing people on quite happily however I understand that newbies now do not have to go to MDN which of course was just about a right of passage for everyone moving up the ranks... thats fair for the guys still there! :=

I understand also that the MDN allowance has been removed for newbies and the flight allowance halved... :eek:

Another rumour from the ranks is that instructors have to have all cancelations approved by the CP or the GM... can a non-flying GM 'approve cancelations'??... I thought that would be down to the PIC??

Ok... its been a few years since I've had the pleasure of playing in the JT & MDN offices but it certainly sounds like things are sliding backwards... :mad::mad:

They may be rumours but surely where there's smoke there's fire??

Can anyone still there shed any further light?? From what Im hearing I wouldn't be heading there in a hurry... :uhoh:

P.O.M

[Icantfly]

The College IS:

still paying Merredin allowance for BOTH current and new employees, P.O.M. :ugh:
NOT changing the pay structure of ANY current employees; however
phasing all NEW instructors or current staff applying for, and accepting, a PROMOTION onto a different bonus structure, which is financially viable for both the college and the staff; however
NOT changing the pay structure that applies to current employees when they receive an Instructor Rating upgrade (i.e. Gr 3 to GR 2, or Gr 2 to Gr 1). Which means no 'forced' pay scale changes, starship.looter :ugh:
sending ALL new instructors out to Merredin subject to skill and requirement
recruiting due to expansion/restructure, which will see MORE pilots flying MORE hours, and as such MORE pilots will then be making MORE money :DAs for the smoke and fire comment P.O.M., you will find arsonists in every community, surely PPRuNe is not free of rumourmongers? :yuk:

BTW, forgive my ignorance, but what do you consider to be a non-flying GM? :confused:

[P.O.M]

They may be rumours but surely where there's smoke there's fire??
As for the smoke and fire comment P.O.M., you will find arsonists in every community

The point I was making is that whilst these may be rumours (2nd hand granted) something must have sparked them and from what you say there are some changes that seem to coincide with what I have heard. I am happy stand corrected with the more factual information you have provided, seeing as you obviously have first hand information and the clarification is the sort of information a couple of other posters was looking for, thanks for clearing that up :ok:

what do you consider to be a non-flying GM?
Well again, rumour had it, that cancellations were required to be approved by the CP or GM, who I am lead to believe does not hold an Australian flight crew licence... ergo a non-flying GM. All that aside I was pretty sure the PIC would have the final say on whether he was going up or not. Again, happy to stand corrected by someone in the know... ;)

surely PPRuNe is not free of rumourmongers?
Your right, its not free of rumourmongers, if you look at the title thats what this forum is built on... :rolleyes: Raising said rumours that get around the industry allows others to clarify or correct as required for the benefit of others...

P.O.M

[Icantfly]

I like that trick, inserting quotes in little boxes... I'll have to figure out how to do it...

As for the 'thanks', you're welcome :)

You clarified the point about the non-flying GM, and nope, he doesn't have an Australian Flight Crew Licence but he has some serious hours clocked up over his career... Surely that would put him in a reasonably good position to query the decision made by the PIC?

I think that maybe (and this I don't know for sure) the cancellations have to be justified, rather than 'approved', per se? (for example, to make sure that the 'lightning bolts' are actually in the clouds, and not just in the aforementioned PIC's head from too many bourbons the night before?)

Not that I would ever suggest that pilots might be inclined to drink too much... :E kidding kidding- don't all shoot me!

The PIC absolutely has final say about going up...

No one agrees more than I, that the award is :mad: ... You seriously gotta look at the system though... when was the last time you walked into a car yard and offered the salesman $5,000 more than the ticket price? :*

[SPEEDI]

Apologies for the bump, but interested in the original reason for the thread, the pay scale, the check ride and any interview hints, of any one who has been through it recently.

cheers

[TalkItUp]

They pay award, not above as advertised on AFAP. The 'generous' Bonus scheme that they speak of was recently halved after the new owners took over.

A Grage 3 (snr) Instructor can expect award plus $7.50 bonus a flying hour (approx 40-42K). The downside that they dont advertise is that they expect a 45 hour working week, where the award only caters for a 38 hour week. I recently did the calculations and can tell you that for the overtime that the instructors are working every week, they are getting paid $5-$6 an hour (this is what CSWAFC consideres 'above award')

Quite pathetic as they had the best conditions in the country for instructors at one stage.

Other information that might be helpful:
Grade 2 award pay plus a bonus $12.50 a flying hour (previously $25)
Grade 1 award pay plus a bonus $17.50 a flying hour (previously $35)
Absolutely no respect for employees, which shows with the attitude instructors have towards the management (us V them).

Overall i would highly recommend anyone consider all options before accepting employment from this company - not a nice place to work.:ugh:

[SPEEDI]

Sorry to bump an old thread but would love to know what to expect in the interview. Ive done a search and only found things from 2 years ago. Has anyone experienced the interview process recently? What kind of questions can you expect? etc

Cheers in advance

[dlx_xlb]

The interview was pretty straight forward, no tricky questions..

Do you have experience working with international students?

How would you teach international students?

How do you deal with the language barrier?

Talk me through how you would teach a student climbing?

Why are you willing to live out in Merredin?

A student has just completed 4 perfect students on a solo check, what would you do?

My interview was a long time ago I only remember so much, and the CFI has changed twice since working there..

After passing the interview you will do a checkride with the CFI or a senior pilot of the company... In a Grob in the JT training area... Mine consisted of, Patter through a climb, Straight and level.. And do a forced landing.. ( no patter required but I did anyway).. Came back to JT for some circuits and pattered a few..


I worked for this mob for about 9 months... The place is only really good for the logbook and the bank account (also making new friends when you out in merredin as your fellow instructors are the only people you will generally socialize with), As far as I know they are the highest paying GA job in the country.. Management there don't really know how to run a flying school and are pretty self centered regarding their income.. Instructors are often lectured if they are not flying enough hours.. So if you want to sit down with a student and go thru some theory or a nice thorough De-brief that it is not considered 'work' according to management..

Work can be pretty laid back and easy, teaching Phase 2 and 3 (as it was known back then)... Students already have a GFPT and can already fly, all you need to do is analyze their flying de-breif at the end accordingly... They also have instructors work in the 'tower' which is like an air traffic control tower, but you give advisories only.. When it gets quiet you can just sit up there on the internet all day.. lol

Pretty much all instructors (Like me) move on the moment something better comes along, due to the way management treats their instructors. But then again I don't really see the need to be living in Merredin and working for CSWAFC for any longer than you need to..

All in all a good place to work if your looking to fill up your logbook and bank account and facebook friends..

[Lasiorhinus]

Not that good for the pay, anymore. They used to pay very well, now they are in the standard GA penny-pinching mindset of paying as little as possible. They do pay an *allowance* of about $7 per flying hour, which, provided you're flying over 60 hours a month, actually pushes your total income over the boundary between below-award and just-above-award.

[dlx_xlb]

I had no real complaints about the pay there..

As a grade 3 you would make $7.50 (before tax) per flying hour.
Grade 2 $12.50
Grade 1 $25 (I think) On the new pay scales... On top of your salary...

You also get a payrise after flying 500 hours (teaching students) with the company, of $5 an hour flying...

As far as i know, CSWAFC is the only place in Australia who pay extra for flying.. SFC might as well not sure...

On top of your salary and flying allowance you also used to get paid extra for a tower shift, and briefing time.. $20 for towershift and now only $5 for briefing time.. Used to be like $50 per brief.. (dont know if they still do)

Working week typically 9 hours a day for 10 days in a fortnight..
so you max out on your duty times of 90 hours in a fortnight..
But if the weather is **** and no flying is going on, most instructors just go home as its only a 5 min walk away..

Back during my time, we used to get 3 day weekends which was good, so we could spend some time in Civilization (Perth)... 4 on 3 off then 6 on then 1 off....

[chili peppered]

Anyone recently had interviews or contact with CSWAFC? would appreciate any info.
I'm a G2 considering heading over to perth and possibly merredin but looking at all flight training jobs around the airport.
Sounds like management can be a headache but aren't they everywhere? interested in pay, realistic hours per month, if i would have to teach any ground theory class and possibilities of progression into IFR twin training.

[Engineer_aus]

Teach everything, hours are regular, Merredin is full of the other sex....Management are F'd, upgrades to twins, get into a long long line. Your probably better trying to get into FTA to be honest.

[chili peppered]

So not the best of conditions. I've worked at a couple places where management were terrible but it's kind of part and parcel of flying schools where instructors are mostly treated like :mad:. Just have to set your goals of what you want out of them and stick to the plan, which is what I'm planning if i can get in. Do you know if G2's have to teach theory? average flight hours per month?

[chili peppered]

oops, disregard last message, didn't read it in full. sneaking onto pprune at work.

[Twin_time_hunter]

Looking to throw in an application... Could someone who works or has worked at CSWAFC answer these questions?

Do China Southern bond any new instructors in any manner? How is the all round professionalism and morale of the college?

[MakeItHappenCaptain]

Who cares if a G2 has to teach theory?

If you can't, you shouldn't be instructing.

If you only care about maxing your hours so you can rack off to something "better", you shouldn't be instructing.

[lethalw]

Amen.
:D:D:D

[dlx_xlb]

Hi I worked for CSWAFC about a year ago.. Answers to your questions..

1. Management
- Pretty self centered.. all they care about is how they can up their incomes..

2. Pay
- Award, maybe a touch higher

3. Hours Per month
- expect 60+ Most months

4. Theory
- All grades are expected to do mass briefs, you usually do them one whole class at a time and you are also paid extra for it, As far as ground school goes, its usually junior 3's new to instructing and waiting to get a flying position

5. Progression onto Twins
- Company requirements Grade 1 with 50 hours command Multi.. Company will pay for your META and may bond you

6. Bond
- yes for one year, if you leave before hand you need to pay... During my time heaps of guys left before their year was up... The company just take it out of your leave..

7. Professionalism
- Id rate as pretty good, their an airline remember?

[allan907]

Only 2 things about the students with China Southern:

Point 1: As someone who shares the skies with them you have to be really on the ball when they are solo.

"Wing wong ting tong Free tasund fee (3,000 ft) Wonan Ill (Wongan Hills) ting tong wing wong"

"f**k! thinks I, my altitude and I'm near Wongan better go up a thousand"

Zzzzzzip as a flash of white zips past underneath well away from Wongan!!

Point 2: Two x solo land away at Northam and carefully park their aircraft close to Northam Air Services (definitely not the usual parking area). Happy snaps for the family album in front of their aircraft and then a carefully posed couple of happy snaps in front of the open hangar doors of NAS. And I dare say that those snaps rapidly winged their way back to the homeland and into the int files of the Chinese military. Just keeping things up to date you understand.