ETIHAD's NEW Career Progression Plan

[king_fifi]

Trying to start a new thread for yet another discussion for all.To find out the truth or rumour behind this so called 'rumour'.

Heard on the line and also have seen it posted by someone in another thread that EY will soon rolling out a new career progression plan for all.

-All upgrades on 320
-All recruitment/new joining will be on 320 as well
-Everyone moves up the fleet according to seniority just like any other legacy carrier around the world.

Well guys, anyone with first hand? second hand? info very much appreciated. Let's keep the ball rolling!

;)

[RemoveB4Flght]

They have been very, very clear that they do not want newly upgraded captains flying with the cadet pilots.

Upgrades are going 330 for 500 or so hours, then back to Mixed Fleet Fly (read: only fly) the 320. Current 330 captains are being forced to the 320 MFF. Direct entry captains are being hired.

These are the facts in spite of your rumors.

[Nightfire]

No way in hell I'd go 320. I'd sooner stay on the 340 for a couple more years.

Especially in the face of the A320 turning into a low-cost department with the related lifestyle.

With all the broken promises they already gave (in fact: they never kept ANY promises), who knows if and when one would ever go back. For all we know, they might just suddenly take some DECs for the 330/340/777, and leave everyone else on the 320 forever. :ugh:

The salary isn't that brilliant, and the 4th stripe not appealing enough for me to jeopardize my family! :=
If I want to fly four sectors per day (per night) for an average salary, I might as well go to Asia and get my life back.

[Nightfire]

you would stay less than 2 years on 320

Inshallah! :}

and for those who don t want to take the upgrade on 320, they will leave the slot for people who are motivated to take it!!

Sorry, but that's crap!
It would be fair, if we all started up the same way. If, for example, everybody had started as a cadet with Etihad and had the same background.

But some guys came and joined on the 320, others came with a 330 rating, or with whatever else.

So what makes it fair to force everyone to go to the 320 for an upgrade; perhaps some of us have already had it before, and accepted a right seat on the Boeing or widebody Airbus instead?

Fair, from my POV, is if you get your command on whatever fleet you're on.

This is what WE were promised when we joined and the reason why we came. Now the management may screw us up the way it screwed you guys, but with what right do you claim OUR positions now?

Since we don't have any seniority-system here, and no union, you can't compare this place with other country's legacy carriers. :=

[king_fifi]

We have a seniority system and we do follow it, at least for career progression wise. If just in case you got by passed, say for example a CCQ/MFF to 340, you can always write it in and fix things up. I have witnessed true case as such.

Yes, all upgrades on 330 and thereafter 500 hours AND 2 OPCs before moving to 320 for MINIMUM 2 years is the current policy. Everyone is aware of this for now. Question is how long will this policy stays? forever?
I need not remind you that we used to have upgrades on 320 for a very short period of time before they changed the policy again.

And also Etihad's plan to go all economy taken us all by shock, not that anyone had heard of it prior to it's implementation anyway. So this new rumour about career progression might as well be true.

We have to wait till RH comes back from leave it seems. Things MIGHT change. Till then it will always remain as a rumour.

There are definitely pros and cons with this new career progression plan. The list is long and the debate will be endless. However just to remove anymore anxiety among us, anyone with strong intel/info from within are greatly appreciated to share with us all.

[shortfuel]

King_fifi, you are pretty well informed. Heard the same recently. It was about time fixing our career progression scheme.

Nighfire, fairness starts and resides in one unique progression plan being the same to everybody, that's the only way to make a seniority list works.

Etihad's plan to go all economy taken us all by shock

Why is that? What difference is it gonna make to you apart that you won't have J meal left-overs?

[EYZ]

If they sold the fleet and got Dash 8's, yes i'd leave. Thats your only answer isn't it, leave? We do retain that right. Its not like there are no jobs out there, what ever your fleet.
As for salary is it really that bad? I dont like the way things change but as for the cash its not so bad.
I am not too sure about this divide between the fleets either, I've never see a widebody crew ignore a a narrow body crew, just doesn't sound true.
EY is not all roses, yes, but is it really that bad?

[shortfuel]

Well said, :D.

[djuggler]

well said :D

on the other hand, could this be the reason why the assessment hasn't started yet for the Q3 successful bidders?

[inciter]

They do not even have to go as far as saying all new commands are on the A320.

K.I.S.S. is the answer. All they need is transparency and a seniority list.

All commands are advertised / awarded on seniority and come with a two year freeze.

If you do not want a A320 command do not bid for it and wait for your number to come up on the A330, A340 or whatever.

[CanadaRocks]

We are going to have cadets on all fleets soon. Their are to many of them just to put them all on 320.

[John60]

Red_Z3, regarding upgrades there was never a change of policy. The A330 has always been the base aircraft. Due to consolidation measures and the luck of command vacancies back in April 2008 it was decided to upgrade on the A320 for a short while. It was a temporary solution to keep the upgrades going and the bidding system was introduced to make things fair. There was a choice of A320 quick command or stay as FO on the widebody until such a slot becomes available. Shortfuel for example that seems to agree with you was the first to take the quick command route and has been fairly enjoying his Captain salary and pay scales ever since just like the “unlucky” A320 DECs. Some of your colleagues had choosen to wait on the FO pay scale and finally after getting the fleet of their choice are forced to fly the A320 after 500 hours including B777 guys who opted for the A330/340. Meanwhile some of those “unlucky” early A320 captains seems to have priority for a transfer to the A340 as they will be the first to complete 2 years of MFF A320/A330 even thought they are junior to the ones forced to move to the A320 as we speak. I do agree with you, just stick to seniority and to consistent policies.

[a345xxx]

Is there a salary difference between the 320 and 330? Or is it just a rostering difference? I had been on the NB for a good 9 yrs before I got my upgrade so I believe I can offer a bit of insight...

Take all the time you can get on the NB short haul. It will be invaluable in your career. From handling to decision making doing things 5 times a day will give you a lot more experience then doing it 5 times a month.

Safe flying.

[shortfuel]

by placing the cadets on 330/340 aircraft as second officers, again like most other carriers throughout the world

From what world are you coming from??? Companies that have to do this usually don't have medium jets! That's why.

There is no "issue" about cadets and new commanders on the same fleet...AIMS will take care of a no pairing rule for the first hundreds hours. all that's required is a sufficient number of experienced capt and f/o. Or somebody should tell me how most European carriers upgrade f/o and train cadets on the same fleet (AF, LH, BA...etc).


Shortfuel for example that seems to agree with you was the first to take the quick command route and has been fairly enjoying his Captain salary

Am speechless...:ugh:
Try again :rolleyes:

[king_fifi]

Hi Starskate

CCQ- Cross crew Qualification
MFF- Mixed Fleet Flying either 320/330 and 330/340

MFF is only true for 330/340 as 320/330 in Etihad you only fly 320 and 330 perhaps once a month just to keep your recency.

Grdproxinop, so it's true then? Just awaiting for RH's approval?

Red_Z3 Great post!

[djuggler]

may not be the most popular thing to do, but i believe it's the right way to go...

[Dubaiforever]

DJUGGLER:

Are you a 320 f/o??? :}

I also agree that this should be the right career progression, but I understand that many 330 F/O will be disappointed because they expected to be upgraded on a wide body!

Many more resignation in the nearest future for EY??? :eek:

[saviboy]

Quote:
Originally Posted by John60
Shortfuel for example that seems to agree with you was the first to take the quick command route and has been fairly enjoying his Captain salary


HA HA HA!! good one!

wouldn' t it be nice if it were true? :rolleyes:


@ Dubaiforerever,

do you really think the company cares about disappointing people?
Are you that new in the company?

I don t think people would have an issue flying the 320 if the rosters were decent. most guys want to escape from the fleet, because they are forced to fly rosters that make them age quick and fly fatigue.
Some guys joined EY on the 320 whereas they could have been hired by other companies on widebody aircraft. they chose the 320 because when properly done, a narrowbody roster can yield way better quality of life. EY just need to get their sh*t together before the exodus happens.

[djuggler]

Dubaiforever,

I do understand the frustrations this shift of policy will bring to the 330/340 fo's aspiring to get their widebody command. But the dynamics in this business are just far too complex for us to control and dictate at our own terms. I'm in the widebody as well, and the good lifestyle and the prospects of getting my widebody command which by my own count will come next year may just be too painful to give up, but I have reached that level of maturity (or stupidity) to just take things as they are, esp if you want to survive long in this business.

We are still left with three options though:
1. Stay in the widebody and keep that lifestyle with no guarantees of when widebody slots will open up again
2. Take the narrowbody command and wait for MFF to A330 (if it ever comes)
3. a. Leave
b. Stay

Remember it's your life, it's your career, and it's your responsibility, so choose wisely. If you ask me which option/s I'll take, that one I'll keep to myself. Goodluck!

[Flyer1015]

With this new career progression, will EY finally consider non rated A320 FOs? Neither EK nor QR require types, so just wondering if EY would follow suit?

[variablepitch]

This policy change may have some logical merits but I believe will be unsustainable for the following reasons.

1. This is not a career airline in the sense that nobody joined this company as a second officer with an accepted promotion path i.e. narrowbody FO - widebody FO - narrow CP - wide CP. Most of the DEFO joined with considerable experience and many of whom gave up the opportunity for narrow body command at their previous company to benefit from the chance of quicker wide-body command at EY along with salary benefits etc etc. These guys are going to be incredibly annoyed and will result in more people resigning and therefore a bigger recruitment headache.

2. I believe EY will struggle to recruit purely for the 320. People come to middle east normally as the position is a step up from what they are currently doing. Offering 320 only is not appealing enough and given that they can walk into EK and QR onto a widebody I think the choice is obvious, plus the fact that if you joined EY now command is about 6 years, EY is holding little to make it look attractive.

3. From next year for the next 3 years we are receiving about 12 x 777. In theory a 777 FO who is eligible for command will have to transfer to 320 for 6 months then do upgrade. So thats a full 320 transition course and then a command course later. Then we will have to replace that 777 FO with either an internal transfer from airbus fleet (again a full transition) or hire DEFO which according to post above is not the case as all recruitment is on 320. On top of all this for each new aircraft that arrives you have to transfer about 10 crews from airbus to boeing (all full transition course) and then CCQ 10 crews from 320 to 330 and also recruit guys onto 320 at the bottom to cover all this movement. That is a LOT of training!


I think putting the emirati SO onto the 340 as cruise pilots for a year or 2 is actually a good idea but I don't see how that should affect many other things.

The 320 seems to be heading for a true low-cost company now and I think all the recent changes are just an indication that the current management has clearly lost sight of what the airline is about and where its going. At least EK and QR have a clear strategy and are following it through.

There are going to be a lot of new opportunities coming up in the next few years and I don't think its going to be long at all before EY is having a major problem to both retain and recruit pilots unless the money goes up substantially. They may have slowed deliveries slightly but the fact remains we still have about almost 20 aircraft arriving over the next 3.5 years, majority of which is widebody and if they insist on recruiting only onto 320 and everything else supplied through internal transfers, I think it will turn into an impossible training and recruiting nightmare!

[shortfuel]

many of whom gave up the opportunity for narrow body command at their previous company to benefit from the chance of quicker wide-body command at EY

And are we going to keep this twisted current career plan just to suit those people with an ego problem?


Jumbo Wambo, you already forgot what handling is? :E

[inciter]

Most people would accept starting or getting upgraded on the A320 provided there is a clear-cut career progression policy, eg. two years on type then bid for whatever they want.

What people would not accept is start or get upgraded on the A320 and the following month they see DECs or others starting on the 777 or A330.

A transparent career progression policy will present challenges in an expanding airline but so be it. FLT OPS, Training and Standards Department Heads get paid the big bucks and it is up to them to sort out.

If they know there are 10-11 777s arriving in the next couple of years why not start upgrading now and dual seat qualify all captains.

It only takes a bit of forward planning and the realisation that employees are a company’s biggest asset.

Jumbo,
"What decisions you're gonna make going tripple daily to BAH, DOH
MCT???"

A lot more than you would make asleep in the bunk!

[Kiwi Expat]

If you are a 777/340/330 F/O, in order to get your command it has to be on the 320? Seems silly especially from 777 with training costs!:eek:

Can anyone who works for Etihad confirm this, or am I just misreading some of the previous posts?
Cheers

K.E

[sandpit]

This is all rumour at the moment - nothing has been released so no one can confirm anything sorry.

I would hate to be an EY manager - we are never happy. I know it is not perfect, but please tell us what they should be doing if you have suggestions??

Guys asked for faster progression to the A330 so the company introduced A320/A330 MFF AS WELL AS the ongoing A330 transfers. But we not happy because there is not enough 330 flying. Surely some is better than none - or should they have left it as it was?

Now we have complained about the upgrade policy and according to this thread, it is about to be changed to make upgrades on the A320 in seniority like a "legacy carrier", but we are not happy with that either.

Someone said the managers and training department should figure out how to do this, but it seems to me that they are trying to, but no matter what they do are criticized.

It would seem if they make the 320 guys happy they will p..s off the 330/340 & 777 guys and if they make them happy they p..s off the 320 guys. Is there an equitable solution? Please share if you have ideas.

[Laker]

Sandpit

All new hires start on the 320 and available upgrades are awarded via seniority. That's pretty much how it works at the majority of major airlines in the world. They can save money by hiring directly into the 777/340 etc but those savings are lost when all the pilots who feel they have been lied to resign and go elsewhere.

[a345xxx]

Well Jambowambo you can take my 0.02 with good intentions or otherwise... remember command is about maturity as much as it is about everything else.. hopefully the thread has wound you up and its not your usual self talking...

[NineInchSnail]

All you widebody guys trying to defend the training cost theory to justify the current upgrade policy theory are making me laugh!!! We all get your point that you want to jump directly from RHS to LHS and keep your butts in the big plane without experiencing the tuk tuk.....

First of all, Is EY that tight on their training budget? Quality of training makes the reputation of an airline. We're already getting the bare minimum in terms of training. So no need to lower the bar even more.

Second of all, for guys coming from 330/340 background. it doesn't cost that much more to transition to the 320. Maybe 1 or 2 sims more than a 320 rated guy. That's the beauty of Airbus, we're just a big happy family!!!!

Last but not least. Everybody has been lied to when joining EY so tough **** for all of us..... Now let's move on and start again on healthy bases and new FAIR rules for everybody. I understand ther will never be pilots brotherhood in this part of the world, but 320 guys have been shafted more than anybody else in this company and they deserve some fair treatment.

[variablepitch]

removeb4flight,

you seem to have taken my post in a different meaning.

I am by no means at all against fleet transfer airbus - boeing - airbus - etc etc. And I think that in general it makes sense for the company to do the upgrades on the 320 and I most definitely think the existing 320 guys deserve their chance to move onto new fleets.

My point was that considering particularly in the case of a 777 FO going to do his upgrade on 320 he has to do a full transition course onto type which is about 8 sims, then another 8 sims for command, then a new FO will be transferred from say 320/330/340 to 777 requiring another block of sims plus then a new recruit - further sim even if already rated 320. So maybe that would come to approx 30 sims in total as opposed to perhaps 8 if you just moved a 777 guy right to left.

The entire point of my post is I don't think that the company will sustain this entire process, even if it is logical and fair, as from what I have heard the sims are already working fairly close to capacity and they are already limited on command upgrades to 4 a month due restrictions in training capacity and that is based on transferring from right to left on the same type of aircraft.

I guess if they buy sim time from external companies this problem could be solved. I don't believe it to be a money issue particularly and that is not something I care about either!

Happy landings!

[zedoscarro]

Please don't be naive, they really don't care about their 'troops', at least for the time being.

Alchool ban, Dubai ban, 4 months notice are poor and immature management decision.



What do you mean? You guys are not allowed to drink alcohol? Not allowed to go to Dubai? Not allowed to go out at night and find a nice good looking girl?

[Laker]

Training and sim time is the cost of doing business at an airline. Do you think Lufthansa, Air France, United, etc upgrade people out of seniority from the right seat to the left seat on the 777/747 in order to save money and sim time? If they can run an airline properly then so can EY. If EY mgt really cared about training costs then they wouldn't be spending hundreds of millions of dirhams on over 150+ cadets, many of whom are expats and contribute nothing to the emiratization process. What does each cadet cost from start to finish? I would guess it's at least a million AED.

[Dallas_m]

Laker,
Easy goes there matey......Those expat cadets/second officers you refer to are bonded to Etihad for 5 years from the date of their final line check and have to pay back to Ey almost half a million dirhams.......so yes they are very lucky to be where they are, but they are far from being on the gravy train.

[roll_over]

Laker, you have pilots at Cathay complaining cadets aren't costing the company enough, you have pilots in Europe complaining cadets are paying to put them out of a job. I guess you do not see how new pilots t&c's directly affect yours do you?:ugh:

[Laker]

You both entirely misunderstood the purpose of my post. The cadets don't bother me in the least. What I was pointing out was that Etihad has deep pockets when it comes to training and consequently should not be claiming that they can't afford to upgrade by seniority. A few extra sim sessions to train a bus FO to become a 777 CA will not break the bank. Just a drop in the bucket when you consider the amount of money EY is spending elsewhere in the training department.

Reading comprehension fellas.....

[roll_over]

Point taken!:)

[CohibaFlyer]

RED Z 3 you said it perfectly. You maybe my new hero:ok:

[sandpit]

Everyone seems to have skipped over the little chestnut of Cadet's as S/O's. One Captain, One F/O and Two S/O's on ULR flights (just like QF and others) will halve the number of F/O's and Capt's required on those ULR's with a corresponding reduction in the number of upgrades and fleet transfers :{

[scudbus258]

Even if all 320 guys were given 330 ratings at minimal training cost over the next year or so, this would make things much better. If I got a LON, BRU and FRA and the rest 320 every month I would have no complaints! The problem is guys are doing a 330 line check and then back to the 320 solid!

I actually enjoy the 320 flying, just not the poor times I'm doing the the Job. 2or3 night flights and then a 0055 local rep for KWI, followed by 2 days of 0730 local reps is just VERY TIRING and does need to change!

Overall I'm happy but management need to make the rosters and career progression more fair for all (320,330,340 & 777).

Lets hope we get through this because the future at EY could be bright with light at the end of the tunnel, just hope its not a train!

Safe Flying!

[saviboy]

"I actually enjoy the 320 flying, just not the poor times I'm doing the the Job. 2or3 night flights and then a 0055 local rep for KWI, followed by 2 days of 0730 local reps is just VERY TIRING and does need to change! "


"guys, no worries no more 3 nights in a row".... just 3 nights in 4 days (or 4 nights in 5 days for captains): thats much better!!

i.e.: not just very tiring but VERY UNSAFE.
:=

[king_fifi]

Finally it's out, the new career progression path for EY command upgrades. So there were some truth behind the rumour since this thread began....

As what I understand, all upgrades will be on A320 from now on, due to operational reason (well at least till end of this year).

Company will try not to hire Direct Entry Captains.

And no more A330/340 MFF as no more A340 joining the fleet. All new upgraded Captains will be doing A320/330 MFF from now on, till the new BOEING arrives. Company wants to built a bigger pool of A320/330 MFF pilots for smoother transition for guys moving to BOEING.

There after, the senior guys will move to BOEING and ONLY then the junior BUS boyz will get to smell the A340 once they're done with it.


Will be interesting to see if this new plan works!

;)

[goriding]

King Fifi - Most of what you said above is right, but according to the ops bulletin, here is what it says:

The 330 remains the principle 1st upgrade path.

The 320 will be used when necessary to provide an additional upgrade path. There will be 18 upgrades by the end of December, the majority of which will be on the 320. This is to correct the shortage on the 320 in the near term.

First Officers will bid for 330 or 320 upgrade as they see fit - if you don't want a 320 upgrade then wait where you are until the 330 upgrade comes to your seniority.

After 500 hours PIC on 320 (or 330 if that's what you upgraded on) then you will do the CCQ for MFF to the other type.

The goal of all this is to fix the shortage of pilots on the 320 since they believe this will provide a faster path to the left seat on the 320 (makes sense to me).

Whether or not all new hires go to 320 was not addressed in the policy change, so that remains to be seen.

I view this policy change as a good one since it will allow upgrade opportunities to more junior First Officers when senior First Officers choose to avoid the 320 as an initial upgrade and wait for the 330 to come first.

[goriding]

The 330 remains the principle 1st upgrade path!!!

"in your dream!!! so sleep well"


Meaning what? That is what the bulletin says.

Are you saying you don't think the policy will remain? Change is the nature of this business and well, if I had a dollar for every policy change by airline management in the interest of cost cutting that has happened during my career then I would be a rich man and no longer flying airplanes for a living, but enjoying my retirement. That is just something one has to get used to in this business.

[Jetjock330]

The A320 captains/F/O's starting there CCQ A320-A330 tomorrow have just had crew scheduling call them with less than 24 hours notice that their CCQ has been canceled tomorrow for the 5th month running. :ugh:

Unbelievable!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!:ugh::ugh::ugh :

[Laker]

poor guys...what a disappointment that must have been

[Red_Z3]

SAD! but not surprised :ugh::=

[iflysky]

No surprises either. Perfect proof that the new career progression policy, plan, outlook, b.s. (whatever you want to call it) is yet another bunch of b.s. jammed into our throats to shut us up until at least the new year. For every 5 that resign, they barely manage to scrape 1 or 2 up. How in the world will the MFF numbers ever go up if we never have any classes, never mind the trainers to train. Or am I totally missing something here ???

[king_fifi]

Last heard, 80 F/Os will be upgraded to skipper next year. A320? 330? Anyhow it sounds like a lot to me though, good plan indeed. A little too good to be TRUE perhaps.

Even if it's true, we definitely don't have enough resources i.e trainers, man power... to do so? Another trick up our manager's sleeves to stop pilots from leaving I guess? ;)

[Jetjock330]

I hear the A320 guys who had the CCQ canceled yesterday with less than 24 hrs notice, has once again had "changes" for the better this morning:ok:

[Dixons Cider]

There's obviously a chronic shortage on the 320, resulting in the schedule and the training program suffering.

its gonna take much longer to upgrade FO's to the 320 than CCQ some skippers, especially given the training resources on the 320 are already stretched.

[saviboy]

How many emails, memos,etc... have we received regarding the 320 problems this year alone? what has it changed? nothing...
this is just another bone the company throws at us thinking that it will keep us quiet...
they can try anything they want to refrain people from leaving, it s too late. on the 320 side at least.
Had they not begged EK to stop interviewing us, the 320 fleet would be grounded now. they just delayed the inevitable. most everybody on the 320 is looking for an out. they can send as many plans, solutions, remedies they want, that won t change, the exodus will happen.

[Red_Z3]

Hey Savi spoke to a friend in DXB and his buddy just got in with EK and is doing 2 weeks in the office awaiting his class start date and he is helping in the Flight OPS recruitent and he told my buddy the guy at EK said no such thing as not taking EY pilots ..... so I guess they are so desperate at EK for FO that no matter what begging they do from EY it will make no differents.
So more resignation coming by the looks of things.

Safe Flying :ok:

[iflysky]

Very true. This airline could change things overnight if they really wanted to. They have all the resources and cash in the world believe me. This is the only joint in the world flying with ferrari leather seats installed in their planes. Make me sick. Oh well, karma is a bitch as the say. Eventually it will come around knocking on the door.

[atuk]

..& when the mass exodus of experienced Capts & FOs begin in the coming months to East Asian low cost airlines which now pay nearly as much...yes..as almost much as EY after the latest pay revision...& get to be back in their home country.....330/340/777 all will probably end up with 320 roster ;)

[saviboy]

I don t think there is an official no poaching agreement. Therefore if you ask around people will tell you it s not true. Most people might not even know about it.
Back in July, one of my friends got confirmed by recruitment at EK that there would be no interviews for EY pilots. That was somebody from recruitment, not flight ops, crew rostering or else.
Even if that s changed since July, one thing that s true is that I know several well qualified EY guys waiting for an interview at EK and that s not happening.

[Red_Z3]

Savy wait and see those guys will get their call, some already have ..... no such thing about EK taking no EY pilots, directly from the recruters at EK. At least that is the story as of a week but it is the ME so things may change before you even read this post

[Chandler Bing]

I crossed another instructor who resigned and is leaving A320 fleet.... He told me another one was on the way soon....

Now how's is MFF gonna work if all experienced and/or senior are going away...??:ugh:

Promises, as always will never fit with hard reality. better off

[juzlime]

Why don't just ugrade right to left on the same fleet. Company save alot of money and time. Now all f/o will get upgraded sooner.

[Chandler Bing]

Common sense doesn't apply here, for a long time......life on A320 is helllike, and it won't change but for worse as people are leaving on a regular basis.....:ugh:

A few new joiners will arrive, lured by the lies of recruitment and thinking that they know better, and will regret it after 6 month if not less, but too late..... you won't see an A330, unless you walk past it during your A320 walkaround, if you succeed doing one awake.....

[CanadaRocks]

The only way to make life more miserable for the A320 pilots, would be to just CCQ them to the A332F. ;)

Then they can practice deadheading in econmy, with no pay :yuk:

[slimy]

so every body on the 330f now? such a fun place!:confused:

[NG_Kaptain]

It's a disgrace that you are not paid for positioning. Additionally there is always a fight about meals, the dead headers are not counted for pax meals and not included in the crew meal count so there is an issue on each flight. Business class seats are not blocked for EY travel and economy seats are purchased when flying on other carriers. The best thing is to avoid the 330F until the mess is sorted out and if already qualified do what it takes to get the message across to management.

[Jetjock330]

Mathiew,
you don t get the same deal as the hotel contract is not the same!!!I think this was MXP you referring to and it has been resolved. That being said, there is major room for improvement for this A332Frighter ( spelled as intended)

The FCOM's don't match this aircraft either. It transfers fuel to trim tank during refuelling at 22 tons and not 36500kg's. So many things not matching.

It is empty with two pilots at 109600kg, but minimum for flight is 116 tons, so it must carry over 6 tons unusable fuel as ballast, but we have no brake fans to save weight:ugh:. That means there will be 6 tons that cannot be touched to legally hold when landing after a ferry. Is this considered tankering???

No idea who designed this or ordered this!

[KRUGERFLAP]

Still a ******* PIECE of S:mad: Airbus -

Why the French start with this s:mad: in the first place?

They should concetrate in Wines and Cheese.

Commercial Planes should be Boeing!

No this CheapBUS Piece of crap

The A330-200F is a joke,and it's pregnant.LOL

Take a look at the FAT BUS A380. WTF is that? My god. Sorry Father they don't know what they are doing.

A330-200F operation in EY is a complete joke. I don't wanna fly this ****,with those fantastic Load masters .Look what they did with UPS B747-400F . cHEAp price = extra cheap quality.

[ViejaEscuela]

There are any happy pilot in EY?
Because everyone seems unhappy. :confused:

[boeing-man]

Yes, but they are a dying breed...surely. :uhoh: Now, speak to the new recruits and most of them will tell you that they are only planning a short stay here....hence maximising the HA with studio apartments and the likes in dubai. This can't be good. :ugh:

[NG_Kaptain]

Forty-five pilots left in the last three months. How many went to EY?

[saviboy]

45...just the tip of the iceberg.
I am now surprised when I talk to a 320 pilot who has plans to stay.

[rahulpereira]

Hello everyone,
I have just applied for the EY International Cadet Program. I know it is very early to be asking questions, but I have taken the trouble of reading this forum from page 1 and got a little curious.
Will it really be that bad flying the 320s, which is most probably what the cadets are going to start with, I suppose.
I know as a beginner, this will be the best opportunity to be flying for EY and getting all the training free.
But can anybody please shed some light on the lifestyle of a typical 320 FO trained as a cadet.
I hope no one takes offence to my post, I'm merely being a little inquisitive and wanting to know a few things of what my life could be if I got selected.
Thanks a lot to all.
Best Regards,
Rahul Pereira

[NG_Kaptain]

Rahul,
Its all about expectations, as a cadet or new hire you can expect to be doing a lot of short haul and bad hour flying, it's part of paying your dues. I did many years of short haul flying and accepted it as part of career progression, the issue now is that EY has been promising one thing and delivering another. If one accepted the job with the promise of flying wide bodies on a decent schedule and the after you are in they change your terms and conditions then you can understand the complaints. In my case I have been flying long haul, wide bodies for over ten years and if they decided they needed me on the 320 I would immediately resign. That was not my expectation nor was it the life style I signed up for. Fly Dubai does not have any of these issues as they recruited pilots who fully knew what they were getting onto and thus were not disappointed.
Regards,
NG

[Laker]

Rahul,

The cadet program is a fantastic opportunity for somebody looking to break into aviation. Your first commercial aircraft will be a 320. Many of us had to spend years flying pistons and turboprops prior to getting the opportunity to fly a modern transport category aircraft. You would be one of the fortunate ones in this industry if you got the chance to join the cadet program. Go for it!

The people complaining on here about 320 life at EY are generally those with years in the industry and they probably came from a region where you can have a very decent lifestyle on narrowbody aircraft. Quite a few airlines offer 14-18 days off per month with 80+ hours of flying in an average narrowbody roster. Coming to EY where you get 8 days off and an extremely fatiguing mix of night and day patterns can be a shock to the system for somebody with 5,000-14,000 hours of flight time with previous companies. I'm guessing most of these individuals assumed they were finished with this type of flying. They probably came to EY thinking they would enjoy quick advancement and the luxuries that come with working for a well funded national carrier. Instead they found a hard working, low cost operation with slower than expected career progression.

[rahulpereira]

Thank you very much for both your replies, I have definitely understood what the issue with EY is .........
But yes I am definitely looking forward and very excited for the cadet program. Just waiting for an interview date........
I sincerely hope all goes well at the higher level and all of you do get what you were promised.
Thanks once again....
Happy Flying to all of you...
Best Regards,
Rahul

[saviboy]

Laker, you are absolutely right.

[Jumbo Wambo]

If one accepted the job with the promise of flying wide bodies on a decent schedule and the after you are in they change your terms and conditions then you can understand the complaints. In my case I have been flying long haul, wide bodies for over ten years

SPOT ON NG Capt. Thats exactly my point. The only people happy with this new career progression crap are the 320 F/O's. Some of us have done this short haul million sectors a day work before. I left my previous outfit to get away from this type of operation. If I had known what I know now a few yrs ago I would definitely have gone to a pure wide body operator like our neighbour down the road. There mayb issues there but narrow body short haul crappy ops would be one less worry for me.......

[Pilot's Wings]

I wanted to know if all of those who applied for the cadet scheme have joined a photo and a cover letter ??

Is it mandatory to write a cover letter at this point of the selection ??
I'm just wondering whether they'll read it actually ...

[Jetjock330]

Dubai (http://gulfnews.com/business/aviation/new-batch-of-46-emirati-students-earn-their-wings-1.689015): A batch of Emirati students on Tuesday graduated from the Emirates Airline National Cadet Pilot Programme. The 46 new high-fliers take the programme's total graduates over the years to 180.
Shaikh Ahmad Bin Saeed Al Maktoum, President of Dubai Civil Aviation Authority and Chairman and Chief Executive of Emirates Airline and Group, presented the graduation certificates and said that the group, under the government, was working to bring more UAE nationals not only to the flight deck but to all levels of the company including management.
"Because of the number of aircraft that we are receiving on average — this year we will have about 18 aircraft — there is an ongoing requirement for Emiratis now and in the future," Shaikh Ahmad said to reporters at the graduation ceremony. "The requirement is there for the new fleet. So we will be able to absorb a big number to come," he said.
The programme involves an expenditure of at least Dh1 million per student during the four-year course, which takes them to train in places including Australia and Spain. Captain Abdullah Al Hammadi, National Cadet Pilot Manager, said due to high demand the programme was willing to accept many candidates.
New orders
"This region, the Middle East, will require 11,000 pilots by 2020, taking into consideration the new aircraft on order.
"If we take 150 [candidates] every year, we will not reach this target," he said. Due to the battery of tests that candidates must undergo, including psychological and health tests, the graduation rate is only about 10 per cent.
Graduate Hamed Bilal Al Shehi said: "It's hard work but you learn a lot.
"You only get this opportunity once in a lifetime," he said. "They want Emiratis to take over [most of the jobs in] the airline eventually."
The pilot programme includes courses in English and aviation science in Dubai over about 12 months. Cadets then spend a year in Australia, as well as a new training centre in Spain.
In the third phase of the programme, spread over six months, the cadets train on flight simulators at the Emirates Training College in Dubai.






That is a lot of pilots that are needed, so they better start looking after them now;)

[chrispatrickGA]

Well , obviously the last roadshow seems to reinforce the idea the management does not care too much about the pilots side.
Interesting when you see that around 40 + of them are having some financial issue with real estate problems ... that the A320 sector is on the edge of hypoxia...
Wait and see... but when an ECAM caution is triggered and 'company pilots' are still disregarding it, it a situation of unwareness of the problems!!!
:ugh: