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defenceheadquarters
4th Aug 2010, 13:18
At present, members of the Armed Forces who serve for 30 continuous days qualify for Iraq and Afghanistan campaign medals. Following a review, those who have served for an aggregate period of 45 days will also now be eligible. These changes will be backdated to the start of both operations.

Examples of Service personnel who could now be eligible include members of the aeromedical evacuation teams who accompany injured patients back to the UK.

Under the new plans, personnel who deploy for short periods of time will be allowed to build up accrued days to achieve an aggregate qualifying period of 45 days' service.

These changes have been approved by Her Majesty The Queen following recommendations by military Chiefs of Staff.

Serving personnel who believe they may now be eligible should apply through their unit admin staff.

Ex-Service personnel should contact the MOD Medal Office (http://www.mod.uk/DefenceInternet/DefenceFor/Veterans/Medals/ContactingTheMedalOffice.htm)

This was posted by the Ministry of Defence. For more information click here (http://www.mod.uk/DefenceInternet/DefenceNews/DefencePolicyAndBusiness/HundredsMoreToReceiveCampaignMedalsWithChangesToCriteria.htm ).

Lima Juliet
4th Aug 2010, 20:44
Sadly, the guys and gals who fly Reaper from Nevada still don't qualify, even having flown 11,000hrs+ of missions and dropped more ordnance than the FJs. But if you're in the KAF "Hat Police" or dishing out Dollars in A1 then you do...

...where's the logic in that :ugh:

Blighter Pilot
4th Aug 2010, 20:47
Something to do with the likelyhood of IDF I suppose:ok:

Grimweasel
4th Aug 2010, 21:36
Hmmm, smacks of softening the blow pre-SDSR the cynic in me says....

2brevets
4th Aug 2010, 22:20
Reminds of of the story of the dentist who was posted from just outside basingstoke to a FJ station, who when attending her 1st dining in night at her new Stn asked why nobody wore medals:}.

Easy Street
4th Aug 2010, 22:51
Don't tar all FJ stations with the F3 brush!

Pongochap
4th Aug 2010, 23:57
Leon Kissmeflaps said:
the guys and gals who fly Reaper from Nevada still don't qualify... But if you're in the KAF "Hat Police" or dishing out Dollars in A1 then you do...

Because, unlike 'the KAF "Hat Police" or... A1' you've never been in theatre.

It's very sad and bitter. I would have thought, if you've had as much kinetic effect as you proclaim, it would be enough to be proud of what you've done rather then denigrating everyone else's service - or overly concerning yourself with 'bling.'

Kengineer-130
5th Aug 2010, 02:12
Pongochap, I'm sure the troops on the ground would be more in support about having a highly skilled pilot dropping bang on the right target, and possibly getting them out of very sticky situations getting a medal than the bluntie who hands out $ sat behind the wire etc :ok:...

Who cares if they have been "in" theatre?? If you play your part in the operation, you should get a medal IMHO, regardless of your role, and I would imagine there is a fair bit of stress being responsible for £££££ worth of UAV and dropping bang very very close to your own troops......

Yet again the services fall on thier own sword :ugh:...

Kitbag
5th Aug 2010, 05:05
Good grief grow up.

In theatre = IDF and a medal (and a big pay packet when you come home)
In Creech = going home for a shag and a beer (and quite a reasonale lifestyle for 3 years-ish)

Personally I know which I'd prefer.

Not totally sure how much risk the FJ guys are taking when airborne, is it really more than the Hat Police on the gate?

NUFC1892
5th Aug 2010, 07:02
It is pretty well publicised that Op Medals are awarded on the basis of "Risk & Rigour". Not awarding a medal to the UAV guys in no way diminishes their importance any more than those who served in Qatar, Oman etc, it simply recognises that very little "risk" or "rigour" is involved.

Tankertrashnav
5th Aug 2010, 08:17
"In Theatre" has always been widely interpreted. During the Falklands War the guys on Ascension subsequently got the South Atlantic Medal, but without the rosette which indicated service on The Falklands or the surrounding waters. Not a lot of risk, but a reasonable amount of rigour I assume.

NUFC1892
5th Aug 2010, 08:46
"In Theatre" has always been widely interpreted. During the Falklands War the guys on Ascension subsequently got the South Atlantic Medal, but without the rosette which indicated service on The Falklands or the surrounding waters. Not a lot of risk, but a reasonable amount of rigour I assume.


The same criteria would appear to have been used for those in Cyprus during GW1 & 2 - though I would suggest the amount of rigour was pretty variable!

rock34
5th Aug 2010, 08:58
Don't the guys (and girls?) from Creech go to KAF for the landing / takeoff bit? :confused: If so, you'll earn the medal.......:}

Roger the cabin boy
5th Aug 2010, 09:07
Thank you Defence HQ for a good decision. Now, is there any chance that you could have a look at a couple of other related matters that many people think important, specifically:

- Some form of differentiation on the medal ribbon to indicate the difference in threat, risk and rigour undertaken by that individual. Perhaps that might ameliorate some of the earlier posters. Perhaps a HELMAND bar, or something?

- Something to indicate repeated tours? I am sure that there are plenty of guys now on their fourth (in-the-field) 6-monther, and I know a couple of RAF types on their 8th op det.

- Battle Honours with right of emblazonment for unit Standards/Colours etc?

Just a thought...

Mr Grim
5th Aug 2010, 15:46
In theatre = IDF and a medal (and a big pay packet when you come home)
In Creech = going home for a shag and a beer (and quite a reasonale lifestyle for 3 years-ish)

If only it was that easy, kitbag. What about those that only fly over theatre, have zero operational risk as they aren't based in theatre and still get a medal?

IMHO if a medal is for contribution to the op then Creech based personnel should get it, together with CAOC personnel and many in PJHQ.

If it is for "risk and rigor" then anyone that goes outside the wire should get it. Those who stay constantly inside have a less clear claim. There should certainly be some clear differentation between the KAF huggers and the guy that goes on foot patrol.

Kitbag
5th Aug 2010, 16:07
If only it was that easy, kitbag. What about those that only fly over theatre, have zero operational risk as they aren't based in theatre and still get a medal?

Don't think they'll qualify then. The specific example given by the MOD bloke seems simple enough even for me to understand; accrue time on the ground in theatre (small chunks to = 45 days, or continuously for 30 days), get recognised for it

As for the guff about PJHQ and others out of the declared operational area deserving it ....:mad:

Pontius Navigator
5th Aug 2010, 16:27
accrue time on the ground in theatre (small chunks to = 45 days, or continuously for 30 days), get recognised for it

You added the word ground which is not in the MOD release. If ground is a requirement then this would exclude aircrew who only operate over AFG.

The other catch is what constitues an acrued day? If an aeromed team is only on the ground, and at risk, during a quick turn round is this counted as a day or hours only?

PS:

To follow from KB's response. To make a distinction between air and ground would seem at odds with previous practise. How do you distinguish between a carrier based or out of country based aircraft that delivers CAS and is therefore at risk from ground fire and thoses based in country?

A similar distinction existed in FI as has been mentioned. During the FRY campaign many aircrew were never in-country but they still got medals.

The question also remains - what constitutes an acrued day?

Kitbag
5th Aug 2010, 16:48
PN, correct I added ground because it seemed obvious to me, though clearly not anybody else.
Aircrew who overfly and are at no risk don't count.
Mr G, I guess from other posts you are at Creech why don't you apply and let us know how far you get?
People on the ground do count. IDF still a reasonable likelihood, the main base was attacked on foot a few months ago.
Aeromed teams by the very nature of their work do put boots on the ground waiting for the poor sods who get hurt, though in their case this time will probably be counting towards their 1st or 2nd bar, I think. Don't the medics have the shortest t/r time on Op tours at the moment? hence 2brevets story.
Footsloggers, SH crews, FP and all the others out there all deserve it, no doubt about that, boys in Creech, PJHQ etc certainly don't.

Lima Juliet
5th Aug 2010, 18:53
Pongoflaps said:

Because, unlike 'the KAF "Hat Police" or... A1' you've never been in theatre.


Au contraire...I have been to BSN, KAF, LKG, KBL, FOB EDINBURGH, FOB PRICE, FOB DELHI to name but a few... One tour "over" Afghanistan and one tour "in" Afghanistan. That's because I've never flown Reaper and only used its products in the sandpit.

With that in mind, and having seen what the Reaper boys and girls are doing for the main effort, I think the fact they don't get gongs is disgusting. They have to decide to take life on a regular basis in self defence of our own troops, work 12hr days for 3 years on constant 24/7 operations (not 6 months about every 4 years as a Bde is currently doing). I believe that gets the personal "rigour" tick and it should be rewarded with a gong, maybe without the rosette? But hey, let's not points score, I have my opinion and you have yours :ok:

By the way, it could be argued that the streets of Las Vegas are far more dangerous than in KAF - there were 131 violent deaths in Las Vegas last year!!! :} "Joke, OK?"...

LJ

Talk Reaction
5th Aug 2010, 19:36
Joke yes fine. But poorly judged given your audience - I would consider removing that last bit in the interest of good taste :=

Lima Juliet
5th Aug 2010, 19:43
Errrr...why? To my knowledge there have been no UK servicemen killed inside the wire in KAF, so just who would be upset by the "tongue in cheek" comment about the streets of LV?

All except yourself, maybe? Maybe you need your banter chip re-wiring? :ugh:

The B Word
5th Aug 2010, 19:52
Talk Reaction

Banter Mode On

Yeah, toughen up, buttercup!

Banter Mode Off

Lima Juliet
5th Aug 2010, 20:59
Here we go for an illustration:

Predator Pilots Suffering War Stress
August 08, 2008
Associated Press
MARCH AIR RESERVE BASE, Calif. - The Air National Guardsmen who operate Predator drones over Iraq via remote control, launching deadly missile attacks from the safety of Southern California 7,000 miles away, are suffering some of the same psychological stresses as their comrades on the battlefield.

Working in air-conditioned trailers, Predator pilots observe the field of battle through a bank of video screens and kill enemy fighters with a few computer keystrokes. Then, after their shifts are over, they get to drive home and sleep in their own beds.

But that whiplash transition is taking a toll on some of them mentally, and so is the way the unmanned aircraft's cameras enable them to see people getting killed in high-resolution detail, some officers say.

In a fighter jet, "when you come in at 500-600 mph, drop a 500-pound bomb and then fly away, you don't see what happens," said Col. Albert K. Aimar, who is commander of the 163rd Reconnaissance Wing here and has a bachelor's degree in psychology. But when a Predator fires a missile, "you watch it all the way to impact, and I mean it's very vivid, it's right there and personal. So it does stay in people's minds for a long time."

He said the stresses are "causing some family issues, some relationship issues." He and other Predator officers would not elaborate.

But the 163rd has called in a full-time chaplain and enlisted the services of psychologists and psychiatrists to help ease the mental strain on these remote-control warriors, Aimar said. Similarly, chaplains have been brought in at Predator bases in Texas, Arizona and Nevada.

In interviews with five of the dozens of pilots and sensor operators at the various bases, none said they had been particularly troubled by their mission, but they acknowledged it comes with unique challenges, and sometimes makes for a strange existence.

"It's bizarre, I guess," said Lt. Col. Michael Lenahan, a Predator pilot and operations director for the 196th Reconnaissance Squadron here. "It is quite different, going from potentially shooting a missile, then going to your kid's soccer game."

Among the stresses cited by the operators and their commanders: the exhaustion that comes with the shift work of this 24-7 assignment; the classified nature of the job that demands silence at the breakfast table; and the images transmitted via video.

A Predator's cameras are powerful enough to allow an operator to distinguish between a man and a woman, and between different weapons on the ground. While the resolution is generally not high enough to make out faces, it is sharp, commanders say.

Often, the military also directs Predators to linger over a target after an attack so that the damage can be assessed.

"You do stick around and see the aftermath of what you did, and that does personalize the fight," said Col. Chris Chambliss, commander of the active-duty 432nd Wing at Creech Air Force Base, Nev. "You have a pretty good optical picture of the individuals on the ground. The images can be pretty graphic, pretty vivid, and those are the things we try to offset. We know that some folks have, in some cases, problems."

Chambliss said his experience flying F-16 fighter jets on bombing runs in Iraq during the 1990s prepared him for his current job as a Predator pilot. But Chambliss and several other wing leaders said they were concerned about the sensor operators, who sit next to pilots in the ground control station. Often, the sensor operators are on their first assignment and just 18 or 19 years old, officers said.

While the pilot actually fires the missile, the sensor operator uses laser instruments to guide it all the way to its target.

On four or five occasions, sensor operators have sought out a chaplain or supervisor after an attack, Chambliss said. He emphasized that the number of such cases is very small compared to the number of people involved in Predator operations.

Col. Rodney Horn, vice commander of the 147th Reconnaissance Wing at Ellington Field Joint Reserve Base near Houston, said his unit went out of it way to impress upon sensor operators the sometimes lethal nature of the job. "No one's walking into it blind," he said.

Master Sgt. Keith LeQuire, a 48-year-old sensor operator here, said the 163rd asks prospective sensor operators whether they are prepared for the deadly serious mission. "No one's been naive enough to come in to interview but not know about that aspect of the job," he said.

Unlike Soldiers living together in the war zone, the Predator operators do not have the close locker-room-style camaraderie that allows buddies to talk about the day's events and blow off steam. But many Predator operators at Creech employ a decompression ritual during the long ride home, said Air Force Lt. Col. Robert P. Herz.

"They're putting a missile down somebody's chimney and taking out bad guys, and the next thing they're taking their wife out to dinner, their kids to school," said Herz, a Ph.D. who interviewed pilots and sensor operators for a doctoral dissertation on human error in Predator accidents.

"A lot of them have told me, `I'm glad I've got the hour drive.' It gives them that whole amount of time to leave it behind," Herz said. "They get in their bus or car and they go into a zone - they say, `For the next hour I'm decompressing, I'm getting re-engaged into what it's like to be a civilian.'"

Col. Gregg Davies, commander of the 214th Reconnaissance Group in Tucson, Ariz., said he knows of no member of his team who has experienced any trauma from launching a Predator attack.

Himself a Predator pilot, Davies said he has found the work rewarding. The Arizona Air National Guard unit flies Predators in both the Iraq and Afghanistan war zones. It has often provided protection for American convoys, and its personnel have seen insurgents planting roadside bombs.

"If we can have an effect there where we can take people out, that's a real plus in terms of saving American lives," Davies said. "Our folks look at it as they're in the fight, they're saving lives. They don't feel too bad about that."

rock34
6th Aug 2010, 08:33
Anyone know the answer to who lands / takes off the UAV's (or whatever they're called this week)? I thought they were taken off locally and then handed over to FOB Creech? :ok:

StopStart
6th Aug 2010, 11:24
Terminal ops done locally; i believe it's because the LOS datalink has less lag than the sat link making the thing "easier" to control at the critical stages of flight.

As for gongs for the operators, some of the operators are potentially dealing with the taking of human lives on an unpleasantly regular basis. They are intrinsically and directly involved in the "Campaign" and as such should qualify for suitable recognition.

BEagle
6th Aug 2010, 11:49
Yes, the Nevada Drone Drivers certainly should receive formal recognition for their operational activity and be suitably awarded.

Their contibution being substantially greater than that of the sunbathing Cyprus tool-screechers of GW1....:\

Torque Tonight
6th Aug 2010, 12:58
If your little pink body is endangered for the war effort (for the qualifying period) then you should get the campaign medal. SUch risks including but not limited to:

Enemy contact - yes.
Getting mortared inside the wire - yes.
Your aircraft being shot down - yes.
Your aircraft crashing on ops because it should be in the RAF Museum - yes.
etc.

Slipping on a puddle as you walk up to the pool bar for another mojito after a day playing with your joystick in a darkened room 12000 miles from theatre - er, maybe not.

Seriously, would you feel much self respect wearing that medal next to a Chinook mate who gets hosed with lead, RPGs and worse every time he goes flying? Really?

Postman Plod
6th Aug 2010, 12:58
Is it just purely a question of cost? Or a lack of understanding of what they do? Or could it be solved by having a medal with an outside the wire operational clasp?

Or am I just being too simplistic...?! :}

Climebear
6th Aug 2010, 14:16
The object of giving medals, stars and ribbons is to give pride and pleasure to those who have deserved them. At the same time a distinction is something which everybody does not possess. If all have it, it is of less value. There must, therefore, be heart-burnings and disappointments on the borderline. A medal glitters, but it also casts a shadow. The task of drawing up regulations for such awards is one which does not admit of a perfect solution. It is not possible to satisfy everybody without running the risk of satisfying nobody. All that is possible is to give the greatest satisfaction to the greatest number and to hurt the feelings of the fewest.

Winston Churchill (Prime Minister) – 22 March 1944

Which leads to the following from JSP 761:

0803. The decision to institute a new United Kingdom award – a separate campaign medal or the OSM – does not depend on any formal declaration of hostilities but is based largely upon evidence of the degree of danger to life and limb and the rigours of terrain, climate, etc...

and

The main factors that should be considered in the overall criteria for a proposal in any particular operational situation are:

a. The risk and danger to life.

b. The style and force of the enemy, adversary or opponent.

c. The physical and mental stress and rigours that had to be experienced by individuals; and, indeed, the numbers of individuals and/or units involved or committed to the operation.
d. The extent to which climate, weather and terrain factors affected the operational situation.

e. The restrictions, limitations and difficulty in implementing the operation.

f. The time (stated in number of days) and the number of air sorties (which may have a limit on how many on any one day) that should count towards eligibility.

g. The geographical boundaries within which eligibility will count (this does not have to accord with the officially defined operational area).

Jimlad1
6th Aug 2010, 14:44
While I have huge respect for the people on 39Sqn who are doing a great job (indeed I've watched their kit being used a lot recently) , I think they should not receive the medal.

Medals always result in dissapointment for some people, there will always be someone who did 29 days, or 44 partials. Unfortunately a line has to be drawn somewhere. Similarly I strongly believe that the award of medals should be limited to those who enter theatre.

If not, then we open a pandoras box of 'my job deserves me a medal' claims, because if someone in 39 Sqn qualifies for it, why doesnt the groundcrew servicing the 216 or 99 Sqn airframes qualify for it? After all, they are working on kit used daily in theatre, and without their contributions peoples lives would be on the line - particularly aeromed cases. We could come up with a long list of people who individually make a huge personal effort to support the front line, but who do not qualify for recognition at present. If we did alter the criteria, then half the forces would probably qualify for the OSM.

I think it is easier to leave recognition for the 'campaign gong' to those who have spent time on the ground. However, serious consideration should be given to establishing an 'Operational Support Medal', which has a much longer qualifying time (say 6 months) for those individuals drafted to posts which require a prolonged and significant commitment to Ops (and noting the wider impact on themselves and their families) but which does not put them in the same level of risk and general theatre conditions.

The B Word
6th Aug 2010, 22:30
How about this for madness:

Some 47Sqn Herc mates did not qualify for GW1 medal as they were not in theatre for long enough (backwards and forwards to pick up men in black and dropping into TLZs didn't hit the qualification) - the school-teachers in Akrotiri did qualify! :ugh:

The aircrew on Op DENY FLIGHT flying over Former Republic Yugoslavia (FRY) in the early days were only doing 60 days each of the 4 month Sqn det - no UNPROFOR gong. The groundcrew were doing over 90 days (in support but not over FRY) and get UNPROFOR gongs. Nuts! :ugh:

The world will need to wake up to UAV/UAS/RPA/RPAS operators/aircrew getting recognition for their work at some point. After all the people on 39 certainly hit the criteria at Para C "The physical and mental stress and rigours that had to be experienced by individuals; and, indeed, the numbers of individuals and/or units involved or committed to the operation." - taking life is a stressful and significant combat decision, even when decompressing with a Mojito afterwards around the pool (which I very much doubt they do all the time; Vegas gets on my tits after about 2 weeks on Red Flag!)

The B Word

BEagle
6th Aug 2010, 22:41
Following a review, those who have served for an aggregate period of 45 days will also now be eligible.

Next thing you know, the same rule will apply to those who've been bravely defending Bennyland for the last 25 or so years...:\

Well, it is an 'operational thatre', isn't it....:\?

The B Word
6th Aug 2010, 22:46
Lot's of personal rigour in the Goose, Lot, Queen Vic and worst of all the Chard Bar (don't bend down!).

:ok:

Seldomfitforpurpose
6th Aug 2010, 23:50
Driving onto camp and seeing the Ensign at half mast each week, listening to the C17 landing, watching Sky TV as another set of brave young folk take their last ever drive through Wotty B I am quite content that even though I qualify for this one I have never asked for and never will ask for any medal.

The day I think I have earned one maybe I will but until then I am content that those who really do deserve get theirs whilst those who don't don't.

Union Jack
6th Aug 2010, 23:58
The world will need to wake up to UAV/UAS/RPA/RPAS operators/aircrew getting recognition for their work at some point

And why not, as should all the SSN crews who did such valiant work on sneaky patrols over so many years. At least the SSBN crews are soon to be recognised by the award of the Royal Navy Deterrent Patrol Pin, with the first awards being made at Faslane on 10 Oct 10.:ok:

Jack

Bunker Mentality
7th Aug 2010, 16:01
Fair one about the Reaper crews, Leon, but why do you have to take a swipe at the residents of Slipper City - did a nasty man shout at you there?

I think BSN has had rather less IDF than KAF has. It's only because Allah (the preferred Taliban guidance system) is such a lousy shot that no British Service people have been killed within the wire at KAF. Employees of British contractors have been, and so have Service people of other nationalities.

And there's plenty of time yet, so let's just keep our fingers crossed.

Flap62
7th Aug 2010, 16:42
How about this as a cunning alternative?

Go to theatre, do your job (whatever that may be and whatever risks that involves), return home : no medal.
Do something above and beyond the call: medal

Why on earth should medals be given for simply doing your duty? Why on earth should time in theatre be considered worthy of a medal?

If you really need a piece of ribbon to differentiate between you and some blunty from basingstoke then you really need help.

As for suggesting that crews who sit 8000 miles from the conflict getting medals - good grief! I would be ashamed to even be considered for one if in that position let alone wear one!

Pontius Navigator
7th Aug 2010, 16:48
[B]the SSBN crews are soon to be recognised by the award of the Royal Navy Deterrent Patrol Pin, with the first awards being made at Faslane on 10 Oct 10.:ok:

Really?

What about the MBF and LBF that held both strategic and tactical deterrent for many years? Regularly brought cockpit readiness or higher?

Then there have been frequent calls for a BAOR or RAFG medal given the rigours of an arduous overseas tour.

Bunker Mentality
7th Aug 2010, 17:49
Flap62: That's not cunning, that's crass.

You're going to go and tell all the old boys on Armistice Day to give back their Defence Medals, War Medals, 39-45 Stars, GSMs, Falklands Medals etc, etc, are you?

The precedent's set, matey. Deal with it.

Flap62
7th Aug 2010, 18:09
Not crass, just trying to resist the charge to get as many medals as we can. Remember when we used to laugh at our colonial cousins for row upon row of medals for 1000hrs in the BX? We're not far behind them. And it's hardly fair to compare a 39-45 medal with one earned for 30 days in starbucks.
At the end of the day the job is done for pride and professional reward - if it comes down to "why didn't I get my medal" then you really have lost the plot.

Perhaps you can change my mind? Can you please tell me why someone who spends 30 days in any theatre doing the job they signed up to do is deserving of a medal? Answers such as "it's always been that way" will not be accepted.

Jimlad1
7th Aug 2010, 18:30
Personally I don't think we're getting like the US - their 'medals' are simply a means of wearing their CV on their chest. These are just means of telling what someone has done over their career. They have 'medals' too.

As for why it matters - personally (speaking as someone with both the TELIC and HERRICK medals), I didn't join for it, but I like the fact that the State has chosen to recognise the fact that I've been somewhere to work in an unpleasant, difficult and hostile environment and sacrifice a lot to be there. Its a small way of acknowledging that a lot of us have done something that relatively few in society are able to do.

I don't think we've got medal overkill - the only ones out there are TELIC / HERRICK and a couple of one offs for things early last decade like Sierra Leone. Denying someone the right to show with pride their acheivements seams hugely churlish to me.

Hubstrasse
8th Aug 2010, 04:51
Some valid points for and agin, However, For a drop of focus I have just watched the RNZAF 757 bringing the body of Lt Tim O'donnell make its approach to Ohakea for his final journey to his family. As NZ's first combat death for several years it has created a bit of a national stir. The debate about campaign medals should not, in my opinion, be allowed to degenerate into a disrespectful slagging match. And yes, I am proud of mine (got some denied others).

Bunker Mentality
8th Aug 2010, 16:03
It's not up to me to justify the status quo, but for you to present a reasonable argument for change.

And why, pray, is it not fair to use the 39-45 Star as a comparator? It's a Campaign Medal, given for service in a particular Theatre for a specified period of time - for 'doing what you're paid for'.

davejb
9th Aug 2010, 05:23
Dammit, my typing just disappeared..
If you are in danger of being bombed or shot at for some minimum period (say 24 hrs - feel free to argue) then get the medal. Shoudl a Reaper pilot get it for flying from Nevada? Hell no, and if bombing the bad guys stresses you out then you are in the wrong job....you genuinely have my sympathy, I'm sure that many people join the armed forces thinking they are snake eaters only to discover that they think too much about their jobs to be comfortable with what they do, but you are in the wrong job and need to change it. If I were a squaddie who'd been shot at for the past few months I'd be kinda pissed at the idea of guys x thousand miles away getting it under some sort of 'stress' heading.

Campaign medals haven't been that easy to collect in the past for HMF, personally I think it devalues a campaign medal to start all this 'I bombed a guy from 6000miles away and feel really upset about it' crap, so whilst I am absolutely sure I've just turned several PPruners incandescent ... I strongly disagree with you.
(Discuss)

Dave:8

Daf Hucker
9th Aug 2010, 06:47
Flap/Seldom

Nobody requires you to claim for the medals for which you qualify. If you don't feel that you have earned the right to wear them that is your, personal, decision. However, the MOD believes that you have qualified. Don't berate the individuals that are happy to accept the MODs definition.

Campaign medals are just that, recognition that an individual was involved in a campaing in some manner. All the "spam" medals issued after WWII were campaign medals of some form. Not all the guys wearing the Burma Star were fighting in the jungle with the Chindits, does that make their contribution to the campaign any less worthwhile? The vast majority of the gallantry medals will be won, quite rightly, by the guys at the "teeth" end of deployed forces. These medals are the ones that are looked on with respect, campaign medals are just longer lasting T-shirts, nonetheless, I like the T-shirt thank you.

However we try and define the qualification for a particular campaign medal there will be winners and losers. Campaign medals are an established part of UK military tradition and have been used since the Crimea I believe (standing by to be corrected) Just because you guys don't think that individauls should get them unless they've been shot at (how close does the bullet have to get), doesn't make it right.

Daf

Pontius Navigator
9th Aug 2010, 09:48
daveJB, you make a good point (I think, if you didn't you should).

If you are in danger of being bombed or shot at for some minimum period (say 24 hrs - feel free to argue) then get the medal

The 30 day rule may be OK for someone whose main risks came from disembarking from the aircraft and flying out tourex 6 months later. What of the squaddie, of any Service, who is in the thick of it with 7.62s coming close and personal who is casevaced after 24 hours or so? He was certainly at risk, he was certainly there, but under the 30 days rule . . .

VinRouge
9th Aug 2010, 09:57
I believe they still get the medal. Op allowance is paid outside the SOL for example for those VSI and SI at Birmingham selly oak for example.

sargs
9th Aug 2010, 16:39
davejb:


only to discover that they think too much about their jobs to be comfortable with what they do, but you are in the wrong job and need to change it.



'I bombed a guy from 6000miles away and feel really upset about it' crap


These quotes don't make me 'incandescent with rage', more sad really. I don't see anywhere in this thread (or elsewhere) where Reaper operators have made statements like these. The case that some UAV operators are making is that they are intimately involved with a campaign, delivering effect on a daily basis, throughout a 3 year tour - thus they feel that award of a campaign medal, reflecting their part in a campaign, is not unreasonable. They wouldn't get the 'Afghanistan' bar, so it's immediately apparent that they haven't actually been there.

Dave, you are of course entitled to your opinion. However, you retired some years ago without any experience whatsoever of operating UAVs. Perhaps you should review your own medal collection from your time in, ask yourself honestly if you earnt every single one, and then you can continue your retirement safe in the knowledge that you'd

be kinda pissed at the idea

of somebody being recognised for waging warfare of a kind which you, frankly, have no understanding.

Dengue_Dude
9th Aug 2010, 20:10
I just KNEW my life was in danger when eating a Combat Kebab at Chris's.

Didn't get a bloody medal for that bit.

But I did get a medal for shopping in combat! Don't you just love that gaudy 'Freedom of Kuwait' medal - I'd rather have had a discount on a few thousand gallons of diesel!

I know . . . ungrateful bastard.

The system's never been fair, but does anyone really CARE about medals, unless they MEAN something. Campaign medals just mean you were unfortunate enough to be in the wrong place at the wrong times and for enough of them.

davejb
10th Aug 2010, 02:01
I didn't say the UAV guys said that, I was responding to those in this thread who were suggesting such mental pain was sufficient grounds for a campaign medal award. I do (however) stand by the statement that if being a UAV operator leads to serious angst, then you should stop doing it...

Yes thanks, I did earn my limited collection of medals, which still sit in the drawer I put them into after my last appearance on a parade ground - I was neither surprised nor offended not to get any for the odd occasion that I supported other folk in the 90's as they were doing the fighty stuff while I was just, usually, moderately uncomfortable well back from anywhere dodgy.

Campaign medals are just 'I was there' bling, and a pretty minor reward for those involved in the nasty stuff... if you want to reward a UAV op for their efforts then there's a wide range of options that can be used, from simple thankyou memos to commendations and improved numbers from the 1st RO.

Tankertrashnav
10th Aug 2010, 08:41
Just for info, Dude, if you're talking about the GW1 Kuwait medal then they currently sell for around a fiver (bought a batch of unissued ones a while back and recently got £4.99 for one on ebay!)

So the diesel discount would certainly have been a better deal!