View Full Version : Cadet Pilot Ts & Cs
3rd Aug 2010, 12:15
Ladies and Gents,
A couple of questions regarding the cadet scheme (happy to hear your views too!).
I'm a 29 year old Q400 senior F/O here in the UK with 2000+ hours and 1000+ on type. I applied to Cathay as an SO a couple of years ago and have always had a strong attraction to working there (my elder brother is now an F/O on the 777, via the SO route, and I'm keen on Hong Kong).
Obviously SO recruitment is a non-starter right now and I've been invited to interview for the cadet scheme later this month. I have a full ATPL and don't quite know where I fit into this scheme. I'm told there's no housing allowance, but what are the other T&Cs? Can someone give a vague idea of time to upgrade?
My issue in simple terms is that, while working for Cathay in Hong Kong has been an aspiration for some time, I'm concerned about being able to afford it and whether at this stage of my career it's the right move for me.
3rd Aug 2010, 12:38
Take a look at the cost of rent in HK and you will quickly find your conclusion. Upgrade to JFO will be 5+ years. My advice, stay where you are and look at other options. Without housing in HK, after acquiring your licensing and experience, I think it would be a poor decision financially to make this move. Quality of life vs income, you'd be better off with airline opportunities in Europe. I'm sure your brother has said something similar. With your experience, only accept a direct entry SO package with housing.
3rd Aug 2010, 17:02
Ask yourself what do you want?
Which company will give you a better opportunity in future?:ok:
May I ask when did you apply for CPP?
4th Aug 2010, 00:28
Thanks for your sensible and very mature post - most guys younger than you just got the SJS (shiny jet syndrome) and jump at the opportunity without checking the facts (and T&Cs).
Please talk to your brother and you will find out that the cadet scheme is nothing else but a cost cutting mission by the bean counters. How someone with your experience can be called and invited for selection as a potential CX cadet is beyond me (besides for the reason above).
Looking at your age I presume that you will plan to have a family and a few kids at some stage and there is no way you will be able to survive financially (a captain I flew with the other day called the international cadet scheme a "financial suicide mission"); therefore please do the numbers and make a sensible decision.
Since you will be on local conditions the medical AFAIK is the same and they are discussing some education allowance for locally employed pilots; further you will have the same provident fund as every other "B Scaler" (15.5% into a Fidelity account - you can choose how you want to invest it) and staff travel entitlements as everyone else minus possibly your annual confirmed ticket home (there are no international cadets currently working for CX - they are all in ADL atm so not much intel out there - the only non chinese cadets here are people who were born in HKG or have a HKG permanent ID card).
I do realize that working for CX is an aspiration for you as it is/was for all of us CX pilots here but unfortunately the aspiration died with the introduction of this international (cost cutting) cadet scheme. Upgrade time is 5+ years plus hence the idea of using CX as a stepping stone purely to get some widebody jet time is not very practical either.
When I joined I had similiar experience and was about the same age; if I was in your boat I - if I may - would suggest the LCC avenue in Europe and then head to the Middle East or Asia once the market picks up again.
All the best
4th Aug 2010, 07:29
What's the word on the grapevine within Cathay - is DESO or DEFO on the cards again any time soon? If/when DESO comes back will housing be included?
4th Aug 2010, 07:45
Unfortunately without housing you will be very poor in Hong Kong and unable to lead a reasonable lifestyle. If your going to be poor be poor in you own country.
4th Aug 2010, 09:40
I am in a very similar position to you. ATPL 3000+hrs, 2000 heavy turboprop.
I too have always had an ambition to work for CX. So much so that I even went on a sortie a couple of years back to HKG just to make sure that I could actually deal with living there if the chance came up. About that time I also started doing the sums to see if it was financially viable with regard to renting an apartment and generally living in HKG with a DESO salary. It really did shock me just how much it would cost to just exist in HKG (that was with housing allowance). But I was still very keen nontheless.
So learning about the Cadet scheme being open to internationals was a bit of a kick in the guts. But, I thought one day things will pick up and they will surely have to hire DESO again and pay expat terms.
This is just never going to happen when people with your kind of experience are applying for and accepting CADET positions with CADET T's & C's??? Are you really a Cadet???
Not having a personal dig at you at all. We can all make choices, and I guess you asking questions here means you have your doubts.
I would just love to see the ex pat DESO scheme fire up again soon.
4th Aug 2010, 12:35
So those of us with experience (4000tt, cap on a TP) are stuffed either way.
Either we wait forever for big brother to recruit (air nz or qf for us dunnunda folk) or sell our souls to the LCC's and cop flak for driving down conditions.
Might seem a little dramatic on my part, but it's bloody heart breaking to see guys who were only a couple of years ahead of you sitting at CX when you know it's a dream you'll never realise.
4th Aug 2010, 22:57
Summed it up nicely SNJ. I've got a few hours less than you, but not that far behind. Guys with your sort of experience here are taking a large pay cut to go to Jetstar NZ because Jetstar Oz (similar pay to turboprop command) aren't employing until January. :eek:
One of the Check and Trainers at another company here applied for the Jetstar Cadetship! :confused: Got through two interviews before they realised he had an ATPL and said he wasn't eligible for the cadetship. Interestingly though they offered to progress his application as direct entry (an application he'd put in 7 months earlier but hadn't heard boo from). He declined stating if it took them two trips he had to pay for to Melbourne how many more would it take to realise there was some box he didn't tick with Direct Entry. But there you go, willing to pay $80k for an A320 endo when guys with less experience than him are only paying $20k.
It's not my favourite option, but the majority of people seem to be playing a game of musical chairs - grab a seat, any seat, at any cost (though if it happens to suit you even better), tick as many boxes as you can in that seat and hope the music starts playing again in a few years time - with only a handful of guys opting to stay in GA until something better is offered. Welcome to GA with Jets.
The FH guys seem to be encouraging it with HKA.
The shipping industry saw a similar change a few decades ago - people went from starting their apprenticeships to becoming a Ship's Captain and had a 40 year career with the same company. Now everyone jumps from job to job and company to company to get ahead - the good news there at least was pay increased after the initial drop in conditions.
There will be no DESO in the future, as there will be a new cadet short course offered for applicants with min. 1500 hours and ATPL. It is only slightly longer than the old DESO course. The only reason why it is called a cadet course is to save housing. This new course is planned to start beginning 2011.
More interesting is, that the idea came after looking at the huge amount of international cadet applicants which fulfill and/or exceed these minimum requirements.
Heard that the CX cadet program had close to 15000 applications since opened internationally. As long as the international cadet program attracts enough qualified applicants I can't see any reason why to hire DESO.
5th Aug 2010, 17:55
It will be interesting to see if they will hire any DEFO on bases for the next couple of years or wait for the international cadets to upgrade to FOs and then offer bases to them. They will probably be willing to accepts quite different COS from what is offered today. :}
5th Aug 2010, 23:45
That is my point GTC58. The DESO programme will never fire up again when they have suitable applicants i.e ATPL with experience accepting this "Short Cadet course" or whatever it is. I mean you can't blame the company here really. If they are getting applicants with the traditional DESO requirements, applying for and accepting these Cadet terms (which is beyond me why) then surely that makes good commercial sense.
Its just a shame for all of us out there with aspirations to work for CX that are not prepared to "commit financial suicide" as another poster put it.
6th Aug 2010, 05:22
Let's see!! A metro- bus driver in the State/Canada earns about 41500 USD per year. This equates to roughly 26000 HKD per month. The starting salary for S/O is 33000 HKD. I guess flying as an S/O is better than driving a bus.
6th Aug 2010, 06:39
Rookie: better consider the cost of living..... $8500 HKD per month for a SHOEBOX to rent, etc, etc. Cost of living is a NET equation. Then the "experience" you get as SO: it counts for nothing as no airline recognises it. As an SO at CX you don't even have would could be called a "real endorsement". CX guys could elaborate further.
I have some colleagues quite senior at CX. They too cannot fathom why these guys are taking the CEP route with the experience they have. The extra training in time and hence money for ground school, sims, base and line training, etc, required to get a CEP pilot up and running as opposed to the DE path is great. But, not their job or ability to change things.
There are several (at least) pilots on the DESO file who interviewed some time ago with heavy jet time: A330, MD11, 777, as well as 73NG and A320 present experience. I have no idea if they are still waiting for the call. Back when they interviewed (2+ years ago?) the career package (training, lifestyle, salary, housing, general operations, and so on) was and still can be an attractive package.
Now would you, with that above mentioned experience, come to HK as SO with ZERO housing? Hell no. I suppose it will be seen whether CX honor the T & C's under which these guys (DESO's) interviewed for.
CX's management is hell bent on leading the race to the bottom. It appears that the present generations of CX pilots are being bred out. CX is fast becoming "just another airline". 3 years ago it was still held in very high regard as a career for a pilot. Can management still say that now? Do they care? They'll retire with the millions through cost cutting and the bonuses as such. And the union there? They seem to generate enough hot air to be the cause of global warming.
Welcome to "CX Express!" ??
6th Aug 2010, 07:17
My previous reply was supposed to be a sarcasm. I guess it's really a bad one.=P
I agree the CEP package is an absolute rubbish. However, it works for Cathay for now because they've got enough applicants. People who had interviewed for DESO are now given the Cadet scheme as well.
8th Aug 2010, 00:11
But at the end of the day you are employable with a widebody rating and time on type and CX training is held in high regard. For someone to sit in a widebody and preach to someone else the they should stay doing what they are doing when it isn't going to help their job chances anywhere in the future or to harp on about the good old days at CX when it's pretty obvious they aren't coming back...............is unbelievable.
CX may not be the best job out there but it will open a lot of other doors that a gazillion turboprop hours won't open.
So much BS on this forum from CX guys who have forgotten what it was like trying to get the f*ck out of GA.......................................
If it's whats on offer and it will help you get ahead then take it.
8th Aug 2010, 09:08
Human beings are known to have very short memories. Some trainers will destroy a S/O confidence by bullying and intimidating him. But the fact is, these trainers(very rare in CX=) ), have forgotten that once upon a time, they were a very inexperience pilot before. They have been in this job for too long that they forget everybody has got to start off from somewhere.
I'm pretty sure most of the CEP, when they were told by CX that they have got the job , they were very excited. Only when they came back from Adelaide and have worked for a few years, they started to forget why they applied for this job in the first place.
I still think the CEP package is an absolute bollock. But if you have make up your mind and come to HK, you should not resent your decision. You know exactly what you will get, and what you won't. CX is a business, their first priority is saftey(advertised), profit(the real priority).
8th Aug 2010, 14:44
they are discussing some education allowance for locally employed pilots
You are a couple of years late on this one. Educational allowance is already there for LEPs. The allowance is the same for any pilot. 90% off an ESF etc etc.
Basically, you are offered every benefit a DEFO would get (DESO non existant now) except for housing. But with your experience, I'm surprised you are even considering such a scheme.
Even the new 30 week "short course" wouldn't be for you. I must admit that I'm even surprised CX have invited you for an interview. I assume you are a SFO for Flybe and with your hours, you would be looking at a 50% cut in your wages if you came to Cathay. (The Q400 can't be that bad to land hence you fancy sitting in the back of a 777/A340 for 4 years eating sandwiches!!). The monthly wage is roughly HK$33000 or £2800 and I am sure you are on twice that.
I would say wait for DEFO (plus the benefits that go with it) but in all honesty, you'd probably be beaten at the post by other applicants with not only more hours but with Jet Time on type. Take a look at the Sandpit forum and you'll see the moment DEFO is opened again, you'll have a thousand Emirates pilots trying to apply as they want out.
In terms of upgrades, well rather than basing on hearsay, look at the facts. In a stable environment, you are looking at a max of 4 years. 3 is actually the norm. Even COS08 only shows wages upto a Year4 SO before the table starts on Year1 JFO. JFO upgrades have resumed this year and the SOs that will be upgraded (that also includes CPP cadets) will have been an SO for max 5 years (and this accounts for a very unfortunate few). The majority are actually closer to 4 years AND, don't forget, they were SOs during the worst financial crisis, plus the extension to the retirement age
So during this wave of optimism (cautious optimism I may add), I expect normal service to resume and SOs shouldn't be waiting for more than 4 years anymore.
Like I said before though, with your wealth of experience, there is no course on offer that you would fit into.
>1500 hrs - Super short (cadet) course - 12 weeks.
<1500 hrs - Short (cadet) course - 30 weeks.
Little to no hours - Standard (cadet) course - 60 weeks.
Over 19,000 applicants. CX will have no problems, they will work out who's likely to leave during the interview process, and those who slip through will be less than 10% and CX will only up the T's & C's when >10% leave.
I don't think 10% has ever left CX :ugh:
13th Aug 2010, 21:47
After a quick read-through I thought my question would be best placed in this thread. With the introduction of the 'short course' for qualified pilots, many with airline hrs, will this effectively bring about the end of the scheme for those with minimal/no hours? Do any complete rookies tend to get on the scheme in the first place that you know of?
13th Aug 2010, 22:05
With the introduction of the 'short course' for qualified pilots, many with airline hrs, will this effectively bring about the end of the scheme for those with minimal/no hours?
I would doubt it. Few pilots with expereience and common sense would be interested in the package now on offer.
16th Aug 2010, 01:26
Salary a cadet can expect:
SO: $398000 = 51,195 USD
JFO: $610000 = 78,467 USD
FO: $794000 = 102,134 USD
CAPT: $1215000 = 156,288 USD
All expat allowances but no housing until FO.
All the young students when seeing these figures were thrilled :ugh:
16th Aug 2010, 02:30
All expat allowances but no housing until FO.
How about no housing allowance until captain and even then it is less than half what an expat pilot gets. For that you get a dog box with bars on the windows and doors in Monkok. Lovely…NOT.:yuk:
16th Aug 2010, 04:24
No housing until FO?
Is it actually written anyway on the contract of the International Cadets? Or is that what they are hoping for?
16th Aug 2010, 06:46
The recruitment people made it fairly clear that there would be 'some form of housing assistance' when the cadet reaches FO.
Seems a bit backwards. Surely the SO is the one who needs assistance on that kind of salary.
But at the end of the day you are employable with a widebody rating and time on type and CX training is held in high regard. For someone to sit in a widebody and preach to someone else the they should stay doing what they are doing when it isn't going to help their job chances anywhere in the future or to harp on about the good old days at CX when it's pretty obvious they aren't coming back...............is unbelievable
As an S/O you do not have a FULL type rating and you won't have any "quantifiable" hours on type.
So IF upgrading after 4 years, yes you get that widebody type rating, but you still won't be very employable until maybe year 6 by which time you will have around 1000 hrs on type (you don't actually log a lot of time on longhaul -time in seat/4 man crew etc).
Coming for the type rating is a 5-6 year journey (gamble).
17th Aug 2010, 01:42
The recruitment people made it fairly clear that there would be 'some form of housing assistance' when the cadet reaches FO.
So that is what they are telling the gullible these days.:ugh: I will make it very clear for you and the other hopefuls reading this thread. Unless it states in the contract on offer to you that you will get a housing allowance once you reach FO then I can assure 100% you won’t get one. They are sucking you in by dangling carrots in front of your face. Unfortunately by the time you realise you have been duped it is too late. The company has you by your balls and you are trapped with no way out.
17th Aug 2010, 02:42
I will make it very clear for you and the other hopefuls reading this thread
Just to clarify, I am not a a hopeful. I'm all too aware of the intent behind this whole scheme.
I was once a hopeful, as DESO was a great opportunity. But why live poor in HK in hope of one day being one of the worst paid wide body skippers in the world. It's a damn shame.
17th Aug 2010, 09:33
Could somebody in the know explain how the various allowances contribute to the overall package. It is my understanding that the figures above are for the raw salary.
14th Sep 2010, 02:36
If it's whats on offer and it will help you get ahead then take it.
and THAT folks is the reason why the race to the bottom continues!
15th Sep 2010, 11:15
Absolutely correct Dan! I really can't believe so many people with experience are lined up for these positions. I think folks just don't realize what it really costs to live in this city. I think the eventual turnover from this program will be tremendous. I simply can't imagine living in HKG on SO salary with no housing, and I'm a master at living poor!
15th Sep 2010, 13:16
SO: $398000 = 51,195 USDMy god! I make more than that on a Q400 as a FO and I have so much more fun, like actually flying!
15th Sep 2010, 16:55
I'm very happy in my present job in GA and not planning on going anywhere soon, however, I really don't understand why so many people come on these threads to just complain about the cadetship?
If the conditions are so terrible and you don't think it suits you then just don't apply! Applicants know full well what they are entitled to and if they are happy to go ahead with it then good for them I say!
16th Sep 2010, 01:32
Ozvandriver: glad you're happy. Would you still be as happy if your boss decided to employ kids on (potentially) 40-50% the package you receive and see from past experience with your employer that through the advice of bean-counters, lawyers and execs your boss no longer "interprets" your terms & conditions as you read them in black & white?
So eventually it's on the employers' financial interest to set a new benchmark, far, far lower than what you would or could accept.
Speculative, I agree and I trust your employer is not like this. But take a look and what has gone on at CX over the past few years & you can appreciate the angst.
And the CEP applicants DO NOT always know exactly what they are getting in for. If they did then would they post so much on this forum?
No one doubts the passion but perhaps the direction & long terms affects of their choices are in question. I don't blame them as much as the system that created it.
16th Sep 2010, 03:24
Applicants know full well what they are entitled to and if they are happy to go ahead with it then good for them I say!
On paper the salary may appear attractive to applicants when compared against their current salary.
It is what you get for your money that matters.
For example, for A$4 you could buy 2lts of milk in Australia. For the same A$4 you would only afford 1lt of milk in Hong Kong.
Very simplistic I know but it shows that the same amount of money doesn't go far.
I am quite confident that most (not all) applicants have no real understanding of the true cost of living in Hong Kong. Unfortunately by the time they understand it will be to late.
16th Sep 2010, 09:01
So CX pilots are all being forced to live in poverty and pay $4 for milk as a result of this program...
Based on what we read on here I can only assume that CX pilots are resigning en masse as we speak, such horrible, unbearable conditions they are subjected to.
16th Sep 2010, 11:45
As I said, a very simplistic example. Maybe to simplistic for you to understand how it relates on a larger principle.
The recruitment team will love you. :ok:
16th Sep 2010, 12:21
We aren’t talking about existing CX pilots T&C’s. We are talking about future international cadets who will be on “C” scale, i.e. no housing and a considerably lower base wage.
From the PM’s I have received I would say most haven’t got a clue what it will be like to try and live in Hong Kong on “C” scale.
I’m going to expand on the biggest cost of living difference between Australia and Hong Kong. They are Rent, Groceries and Electricity. In making the comparison I am going to make an apples v apples comparison to highlight the true cost differences.
Average rent in Sydney or Melbourne for a 3 bedroom 3000 ft² house is about AUD$800.00 per week. The average cost of the equivalent sized apartment in the New Territories of Hong Kong is HK$75000.00 per month. So let’s break down these numbers based on today’s exchange rate of 7.25.
AUD$800 x 52 = AUD$41600 per year.
AUD$41600 ÷ 3000 ft² = AUD$13.87 per ft² per year.
AUD$13.87 = HK$100.56 per ft² per year
HK$75000 x 12 = HK$900,000 per year
HK$900,000 ÷ 3000 ft² = HK$300.00 per ft² per year
This relationship per square foot applies throughout the rental market between Hong Kong and Australia regardless of the size of the dwelling. Rents in Hong Kong average 3 times as much per ft² than Australia’s most expensive cities. I should also mention the difference between Hong Kong and Australia how living area is calculated. In Australia it is measured from the inside of the walls. In Hong Kong it is measured from the outside of the walls and also includes your share of the foyer and elevator. The reality is that when an estate agent says that an apartment is 500 ft² it is really about 350 ft² by Australian standards.
A sample of five common items that can be found in both countries.
Bread = AUD$2.99
Milk 2L = AUD$4.99
Meat (steak) = AUD$23.99 per kg
Toothpaste = AUD$4.79
Shampoo = AUD$14.99
Food = AUD$31.97 = HK$231.78
Toiletries = AUD$19.78 = HK$143.41
Bread = HK$19.20
Milk 2L = HK$59.80
Meat (steak) = HK$299.00 per kg
Toothpaste = HK$20.90
Shampoo = HK$48.90
Food = HK$378.00
Toiletries = HK$69.80
Food is on average 60-70% more expensive than Australian food prices which are already very high by world standards. Toiletries though tend to be cheaper in Hong Kong. Just like Australia though the average shopping trolley consists of about 80-90 food and the rest toiletries and cleaners.
AUD$0.08 per Unit i.e. cents/kWh = HK$0.58 per Unit
HK$0.91 per Unit
Electricity on average is 55-60% more expensive in Hong Kong than Australia.
17th Sep 2010, 01:08
Who the hell needs a 3000 sq ft house, let alone 2000 sq ft to live in?
17th Sep 2010, 01:40
I didn’t say that and it wasn’t the point of the post. As there aren’t many if any 500 ft² apartments in Sydney or Melbourne, I did a comparison with what was there. The point was to derive a cost per ft² and make a comparison.
By the way I’m not sure if you realise this but a 3000 ft² house isn’t that big. Infact the average house in the US and Australia is about this size. It is usually the entrance size house for a couple considering a family.
17th Sep 2010, 17:50
Potential Cadet entrants, so you are properly informed let me put this plain an simple in terms. So you can compare and realise what you are accepting.
A current DESO who has been on the company for 2 years who is on full housing will be earning (as a package) 300% of your first year salary.
I'll let you multiply out the figures on here or you have received from recruitment.
As a first year cadet you will be earning salary only.
There is no housing assistance as an FO either.
Your package will be 1/3 of one of the DESOs who joined in 2008 and are on full housing after 2 years. I can see that the DESO package will LOOK like a lot of money, but ask any DESO and they are far from rolling in money. Housing in HKG is VERY expensive. Especially if you have or plan to have a wife or kids in the future, you will not be able to afford to live on salary alone.
17th Sep 2010, 19:18
Larger houses in Hong Kong increase exponentially for cost/sqm....
And I've actually been looking at housing in Melbourne, so many nice one floor 2 bedroom villas for $1500 a month... not to mention, if he's renting, and doesn't have a family yet, a lot of these costs are completely irrelevant... you're scaring him :=
By no means would I ever recommend Hong Kong though I have heard of Melbourne having high living expenses, almost, ALMOST, comparable to Vancouver
18th Sep 2010, 00:33
Firstly, having spent quite a bit of time in YVR, SYD and MEL, I can tell you SYD and MEL are more expensive for overall cost of living...unfortunately.
I don't know what area of MEL you are looking at where you can get a 2 bedroom villa for $375/week ($1500/month), but I don't think I would want to live there...
404 is not trying to scare anyone, he is trying to educate you on the reality of the cost of living in HKG.
Even a studio/smaller 1 bedder in somewhere like Discovery Bay will cost between $8500 and 12000/month. If you have been looking at sizes, HKG property is a strange beast, as a rule of thumb, multiply whatever is advertised by about 0.8 and it will give you roughly the actual size. So your 500sq ft studio will turn into 400sqft, which is pretty damn small, about the size of an average hotel room.
so, say (10K/month) 120,000 p.a. /400sqft = $300sqft pa. So it doesn't have to be huge, and DB is not expensive as far as HK goes. You also probably don't want to be living in a local fishing village
Also bear in mind that you guys will probably be S/Os for 4-5 years at the current trends. I can't live in a hotel room for much more than a couple of weeks, let alone 4-5 years.
18th Sep 2010, 02:00
Sadly, all the advice and information is falling on deaf ears, or, the potential candidates simply find a way to justify it.:ugh: 404Titan and others have given you all plenty of accurate info on the cost of living here, ignore it at your peril....and know this....a little gem that will affect a few of you...the company will fire you if you become bankrupt.
Bury your heads in the sand, make excuses, try and justify it somehow, but at the end of the day, your deluding yourselves if you think you can manage here without housing on the SO salary.:yuk::ugh: If it was only for 2 years, I'd be positive and say maybe, but 4-5 years?
18th Sep 2010, 02:35
Please don’t confuse the cost of large apartments on Hong Kong Island to large apartments in the New Territories. Apartments on Hong Kong Island are easily double the cost of apartments per ft² than the New Territories.
So lets look at this two bedroom apartment in Melbourne that goes for AUD$1500.00 per month. Since I don’t know the property your are referring to I found one in a very average area of Melbourne for AUD$370 per week.
Melbourne Rental Property (http://vic.professionals.com.au/properties/415184/details)
It has 2 bedroom, one bathroom and one car space. I will give you a guess how big this apartment is. I can tell you it isn’t 500 ft². I rang the agent to find out how big it is and it is just under 100 m² = 1076 ft². So if we extrapolate this out:
370 x 52 = AUD$19240 per year
19240 ÷ 1076 = AUD$17.88 per ft² per year
AUD$17.88 = HK$129.64 per ft² per year
Looking at a similar sized apartment in a very average part of Discovery Bay you are paying about HK$20000.00 per month for a 1000 ft². This works out to HK$240.00 per ft² per year.
18th Sep 2010, 04:35
For the potential cadets, please take the advice that these gentlemen are giving you! I am happy to be at CX, but I am on a full expat package. If it was not for the housing assistance in Hong Kong, it would have been nearly impossible to live on SO wages. If you are already experienced, why would you want to leave your home country, come to an airline that is going to give you a p2x rating, log useless time, and live like a pauper? It just doesn't make any sense guys and gals! I know you want to be at CX, I was in the same boat as you, but you are looking at a very difficult road if you choose to go this way.
18th Sep 2010, 08:54
Mouwaa, YVR has changed a lot.
In the last 10 years, my house value has increased by 6x.
The areas I've been looking at in Melbourne were places close to the university, I honestly have no clue how the stuff works there, all I read on the realty websites are crap about the bank guaranteeing rent if you can't find renters or 'villas' being really small.....
Also, I had a friend who got in on the cadet program back in 07, he just bought a place in Chung Tung. I'm sure most people don't want to see the building that's raping them every morning, but for $250k US (at the time) it isn't too bad... 700 sq ft isn't huge, but it's manageable...
18th Sep 2010, 10:39
Roxy, with all the info here, you have to ask?:confused: To enlighten you, housing here is very, very expensive, just go look on the internet or on this thread. There is another thread running that covers in quite a bit of detail the cost of living here. What it boils down to is this: If you have to pay for your own housing out of your salary, you'll have sweet FA left over with to save for your tax, pay your groceries, your utilities, your public transport, club fees, even just to go out for a night on the tiles is $1000HKD. To be blunt, you'll be broke and struggling far far from home.:ugh:
EVERYTHING costs more here, it seems as though every time I leave the house I'm spending a few hundred here and there, it adds up pretty quick. We are not on here with any hidden agenda, we are here trying to warn you about what you are letting yourself in for. If CX ever got rid of housing, I'd be on the first boat out, shiny jet or not. Don't forget, as an SO, you will have loads of time off, you just won't be able to afford to do anything, or go anywhere....quite frankly it would be depressing.
18th Sep 2010, 10:53
I am quite aware of what current real estate prices are in YVR. They are definitely higher in Sydney than YVR for a reasonable area. Perhaps Melbourne is slightly cheaper, I am not sure, I don't follow current prices there that closely.
I am not sure how old you are but you are looking at it through rose tinted glasses. Is 700sq ft in Tung Chung the gross or net size? That would be manageable for you, and maybe a girlie, but I hope you don't plan on having a kid any time before you would be an FO, because 1) you won't have the room and 2)you won't be able to afford it.
Remember also if you do decide to come here and get jack of your living conditions after 5 years, you will have a P2X type rating that isn't recognised anywhere, and S/O time in your log book that isn't worth the paper it is written on.
18th Sep 2010, 10:55
As I have posted else where the company was asked by the HKAOA, (the union that represents Cathay pilots) at recent negotiations on housing for the T&C’s for the new “International Cadets” as the first of these cadets is due to return to Hong Kong from Adelaide at the end of this year to complete their endorsement training and LFUS. The company so far hasn’t provided these T&C’s but made it very clear that housing will not be paid to any International Cadet or DE pilot as of 2009. They are using the recently legislated Racial Discrimination Ordinance to justify this move. The mere fact that the company wont provide the new T&C’s indicates that the company not only intends not paying a housing allowance, they also intend to reduce the basic pay levels as well, hense the use of the term “C” scale. The last time the company introduced a new pay scale “A” → “B” represented about a 40% reduction in pay scales. If the company does create a “C” scale who knows how much of a reduction the new pay scales will be.
Before anyone says they can’t do this to the cadets that have already started in Adelaide, WRONG. No contract of employment is signed until the candidate successfully finishes their training in Adelaide and starts their training in Hong Kong.
18th Sep 2010, 11:22
roxy, sent you a PM
for a DESO who has completed 24 months, salary only makes up 40% of the remuneration package, housing makes up around 60%...no that is not a typo.
You will be earning 60% less than your colleagues after 2 years!
21st Sep 2010, 07:29
First of all, I just wanna say im not flying any shinny jets or even close to it! I first applied the the CPP back in 2004 or so, didn't get it. So went ahead and spent some money getting my licences and stuff, during then n now, met a few people who madde it into the shinny jet industry and some in CX/KA. As far as I am concerned, the spirit between some pilots are hitting rock bottom due to the reasons few of of you guys stated in this thread.:ugh:
Now from a company point of view, yes making a profit is important, but if it takes alot out of their employee, then one day it's just gonna back fire on them. Yes, CX had a really good name in the industry and everyone wanted to be part of it, but if these new T's & C's take place....who knows what kind of damages gonna happen in the future??
I hope I am making sense, it's really just my 2cent cos I am not (yet) flying for the shinny industry. Some current CX pilots once told me to look else where if my hours are high enough for industry standard, it's just not worth the 5 years earning P2X where at the end of it, you cant not find jobs elsewhere with those P2X hours anyway, because they worht nothing to others. Please correct me guys, I just wanna say how I feel after reading this thread for months.
Good luck to those who made it in and happen to have a family home to stay at in HK, otherwise be prepare to live in the NT where rent are still quite hectic for what it is.
21st Sep 2010, 14:36
I can vouch for the numbers being touted. I am a third year SO and my housing allowance is 50% higher than my basic salary. Everything is expensive here (except eyeglasses and dentistry as it turns out).
Bottom line - do not even think about signing for Cadet SO if you have a wife let alone kids. If single, it's viable but keep your options open as you will soon tire of being away from home (and the BS the company puts out).