6 simple questions for the PPRuNE aleet

[Thelma Viaduct]

1) How much money have the wars in Iraq & Afghanistan cost/so far us the tax payer?

2) What have we the taxpayer gained from the wars in Iraq & Afghanistan other than hundreds of soldiers killed, hundreds maimed, thousands of civilians killed and a more than likely increase of the terror threat?

3) Why couldn't our so called educated elite see that both ventures would turn out to be disasters, when the average Joe in the street could see it a mile off?

4) Why haven't those that made the final decision to go to war and lie about the reasons, been held to account?

5) It's interesting to see that both the Mujahideen and Saddam Hussein were once both funded and armed puppets of the west. Who else was on the pay roll that is no longer playing ball?

6) Where are all the bliar apologists hiding these days, this forum was once full of them?

[Aerouk]

Surely you would be better off asking a politician? The Military just deliver the message, they don't decide the action that should be taken.

[BOAC]

ALEET - Acquisitions and Logistics Experience Exchange Tour - not sure anyone here has done one, so you may not get answers.

[RotaryWingB2]

It was £175 last year, I don't think it's changed.

[StopStart]

1) How much money have the wars in Iraq & Afghanistan cost/so far us the tax payer?
Billions. Mostly raised through selling off hospitals and sending the children of the poor up chimneys.

2) What have we the taxpayer gained from the wars in Iraq & Afghanistan other than hundreds of soldiers killed, hundreds maimed, thousands of civilians killed and a more than likely increase of the terror threat?
Cheaper heroin.

3) Why couldn't our so called educated elite see that both ventures would turn out to be disasters, when the average Joe in the street could see it a mile off?
Probably too busy drinking champers. I know I was. It really is top notch being both educated and elite.

4) Why haven't those that made the final decision to go to war and lie about the reasons, been held to account?
To be fair, MoD Accounting is dreadful, we all know that.

5) It's interesting to see that both the Mujahideen and Saddam Hussein were once both funded and armed puppets of the west. Who else was on the pay roll that is no longer playing ball?
The Cookie Monster, Bert & Ernie, Miss Piggy, Kermit the Frog, Big Bird - actually strike that, Big Bird isn't actually a puppet although he does have arms...

6) Where are all the bliar apologists hiding these days, this forum was once full of them?
Apologies, not sure...


Up the Revolution!

[Roadster280]

1) How much money have the wars in Iraq & Afghanistan cost/so far us the tax payer?

That would be a question for the Treasury, n'est ce pas?

2) What have we the taxpayer gained from the wars in Iraq & Afghanistan other than hundreds of soldiers killed, hundreds maimed, thousands of civilians killed and a more than likely increase of the terror threat?

Threats are liveable, it's what the military does, carrying out the threat isn't fine. That's what happened in 2001, and precipitated the AFG situation. As painful as it may seem, there has been relative home security since. See Cold War for value of deterrence. It might be better if you looked at what would have been allowed to happen if AQ hadn't been interdicted.

3) Why couldn't our so called educated elite see that both ventures would turn out to be disasters, when the average Joe in the street could see it a mile off?

I don't think the average Joe in the street could even give a decent description of where Afghanistan is, let alone a detailed political analysis.

4) Why haven't those that made the final decision to go to war and lie about the reasons, been held to account?

That would be a question for the judiciary, n'est ce pas?

5) It's interesting to see that both the Mujahideen and Saddam Hussein were once both funded and armed puppets of the west. Who else was on the pay roll that is no longer playing ball?

Some bloke in the Metropolis of Blackpool, apparently.

6) Where are all the bliar apologists hiding these days, this forum was once full of them?

Not many Bliar fans in the military, you must have been looking in the BA Cabin Crew forum.

[Dengue_Dude]

I suggest you go study some history of the human race.

Wars are fought (and NEVER by politicians) for money and power - alternatively power and money.

Other reasons, if quoted are basically BS.

The military are and always have been the tool of the politicians/power elite to achieve the above.

Why would they care if people get hurt? Show me any evidence (in history too) that they've ever cared - doesn't happen. But, we were/are all volunteers.

[tarantonight]

Hope all of that was tongue in cheek StopStart, or maybe you are a Cavalry Type with your private income...................................

Read Butcher and Bolt by David Loyn re Afghan. You will see it is unwinnable.

TN.

[Flying Serpent]

1) How much money have the wars in Iraq & Afghanistan cost/so far us the tax payer?

Too Much...

2) What have we the taxpayer gained from the wars in Iraq & Afghanistan other than hundreds of soldiers killed, hundreds maimed, thousands of civilians killed and a more than likely increase of the terror threat?

A little bit more prosperity due to increased arms sales and employment taxes from those involved in the arms manufacturing industries.

3) Why couldn't our so called educated elite see that both ventures would turn out to be disasters, when the average Joe in the street could see it a mile off?

The probably did but but at the end of the day guarantees of employment and properity are vote winners. Wars are good for economies.

4) Why haven't those that made the final decision to go to war and lie about the reasons, been held to account?

That would be tantamount to admitting blame and NO politician would ever open themselves up to the possible consequences of doing that.

5) It's interesting to see that both the Mujahideen and Saddam Hussein were once both funded and armed puppets of the west. Who else was on the pay roll that is no longer playing ball?

Don't know.

6) Where are all the bliar apologists hiding these days, this forum was once full of them?

Disillusioned..probably

[barnstormer1968]

tarantonight.
You said:

Hope all of that was tongue in cheek StopStart, or maybe you are a Cavalry
Type with your private income...................................

Read Butcher and Bolt by David Loyn re Afghan. You will see it is unwinnable.

Maybe if someone told the taliban it is unwinnable they would stop fighting:}
I have a slight impression they think it is winnnable (by them)

I have to say that, as it was always funny to hear someone shout 'can anyone see
the enemy'.

I always thought that would depend on which side of the contact you were in :}

[Thelma Viaduct]

I think flyingserpent has the best answers, so he/she wins.

The war is good for economies made me chuckle though., obviously not a spam as they don't do irony.:D

[Shack37]

1) How much money have the wars in Iraq & Afghanistan cost/so far us the tax payer?

The cost is more accurately counted in lives lost/destroyed.

2) What have we the taxpayer gained from the wars in Iraq & Afghanistan other than hundreds of soldiers killed, hundreds maimed, thousands of civilians killed and a more than likely increase of the terror threat?


I wouldn't call this a gain by any stretch of the imagination.

[skippedonce]

3) Why couldn't our so called educated elite see that both ventures would turn out to be disasters, when the average Joe in the street could see it a mile off?

So then why did the average Joe in the street re-elect Bliar?

[ZFT]

........because to the average man in the street/Blair supporter, the cost of a pint of beer or tax credits are (to him) of far greater importance!

[Two's in]

I hope things haven't changed too much, but when I was serving nothing lifted the spirits more than to hear the outpourings from the moral high ground decrying my manipulation as a fascist instrument of the right-wing industrial complex. My usual line of attack was to point out how much income tax I had to pay as an average jack-booted fascist bully-boy in my pursuit of oppressing the working classes on a global scale.

Not that these questions aren't valid, but as a few others have pointed out, don't pick on the Military when it's the mindless masses who keep electing these jokers.

[kilomikedelta]

History tells us not to invade Russia during the winter and to never invade Afghanistan. Santayana was right, but no one listens. History and philosophy don't optimize shareholder value nor are they part of the MBA curriculum.

[tarantonight]

kilomikedelta,

With you all the way.

barnstormer

Quite clearly I meant it is not unwinnable by us, inferring it IS winnable by the TB's. Have you read Butcher and Bolt?

[Sir George Cayley]

The UK, through the East India Co, invaded Afghanistan in 1850 something to secure a summer home for the Indian Raj.

By 1866 (I think) insurgents -now there's a word - had driven out the invaders culminating in all 18,000 soldiers dying as a result.

Only one survived, a doctor, whose horse died at the gates of the fort to which he escaped. They have long memories.

The Afghans/Taliban will recover their position sometime in the future. And to them they have no need to define that - they just know that it will be.

As Churchill said "He who doesn't learn the lessons of history is bound to repeat them" Sorry 'bout that.

Sir George Cayley

[Trim Stab]

The Afghans/Taliban


You are mistaken if you think they are the same.

But moving on to a different point, true democracies do not go to war against other true democracies.

One reason that we have had so many unjust wars in the past fifty years is that the USA is not a true democracy - their system is distorted by powerful lobby groups and above all by their powerful military-industrial relationships. The UK tags along.

Another reason is that (partly due to the reason above) is that the western alliances are afraid to justly confront the situation in the Middle East. The late Robin Cook was correct to say that the solution for peace in the wider Middle-East and the attendant threat of domestic terrorism is to address the injustice we have condoned over many years on the Palestinian people. We will never win that unjust battle simply by using our superior technology against an aggrieved and increasingly polarised islamic-oriented populace who sympathise with the Palestinian cause, and who in their extreme elements are prepared to accept a casualty ratio of hundreds if not thousands to one.

[kilomikedelta]

I thought George Santayana said: "Those who cannot learn from history are doomed to repeat it." in "a Life of Reason" (1905-1906). Perhaps he stole it from Churchill who was 31 years old at the time.

[thing]

"The UK, through the East India Co, invaded Afghanistan in 1850 something to secure a summer home for the Indian Raj.

By 1866 (I think) insurgents -now there's a word - had driven out the invaders culminating in all 18,000 soldiers dying as a result.

Only one survived, a doctor, whose horse died at the gates of the fort to which he escaped."

An Average Joe replies: Not quite true. He wasn't the only one to survive and that particular urban myth is about the 1841 retreat from Kabul led by one of the most incompetent generals ever (and that's saying something) General Elphinstone. There were around 10,000 in the retreat but a vast number of those were camp follower/baggage handlers etc. Which doesn't make it OK for the camp followers/baggage handlers but you get my drift. Comparatively few were actually British soldiers/cavalry.

The whole scenario was misread by the politicos out there (another surprise then) who were trying to support the British puppet king.

[StopStart]

The late Robin Cook was correct to say that the solution for peace in the wider Middle-East and the attendant threat of domestic terrorism is to address the injustice we have condoned over many years on the Palestinian people.

Er, negative. Whilst one wouldn't seek to condone the treatment of the Palestinians over the years, please don't confuse the Islamic Fundamentalist hatred of the Great Satan with the troubles of the Palestinians. The Middle East at large couldn't give two hoots about the Palestinians - if they were that worried they would offered them sanctuary and succor long ago. The Palestinian issue is just a handy cudgel with which to beat the Israelis and the Palestinian "freedom fighters" (call them what you will) are a handy way of waging war on Israel vicariously.

If all Israelis were to keel over tomorrow and Palestinians were to rule over Palestine the "troubles" of the Middle East and the terrorism/fatwa/holy war/whatever against the West and all it stands for would abate by approximately 0.0001%.

PS. tarantonight:
Hope all of that was tongue in cheek StopStart, or maybe you are a Cavalry Type with your private income...................................
:D
Legen..........



....wait for it.......

[Minimbah]

I think it was Tom Clancy who wrote in one of his novels something along the lines of "war is armed robbery writ large". As another poster has said, it's about money, power and oil - in any order you like to place them!

I could go on about the similarities between Vietnam and Afghanistan and why the allies will, eventually, fail in Afghanistan, but I'm not into thesis writing right now!