Pitch Black

[longrass]

Seems to be all happening, the Thai airforce even has a Wifi hopspot set up on apron.... Lol

what's with the F111, I thought they were finished, one sitting here atm...

[Fred Gassit]

They're a bit like Whispering Jack, you keep thinking you've seen the last of them and then...

[Capn Bloggs]

F111
It's a B111, Bloggs. :=

[morno]

They're not due to retire until end of 2010.

morno

[PLovett]

If its at Darwin the F111 is probably providing the strike attack for the "red" force where it will outperform and totally embarrass the defending FA18s thereby creating a huge PR problem when the RAAF tries to explain just why they are being retired. :uhoh::mad::sad::=

[lurker999]

the party line is that the F111s don't have the avionics required for a modern combat aircraft.

[Col. Flagg]

They are finished, but we cant just get rid of a strike capability without the replacement. A few guys I know are in the states now doing their F/A-18 (E/F) conversions to bring back the next wave.

Flagg

[206greaser]

How have the delays getting in/out of Darwin affected folks?

Is there some kind of record for holding time both from this year and years past?

It is cool watching the F-16's and F-18's peeling of over head though!

Cheers,
Greaser

[Ixixly]

Holding on the ground, 35mins, holding overhead Lee Point 30mins so far... its freaking annoying, specially when the trainee ATCs are on and your pulling hair waiting at the holding point for a 210 on 5mile final.... whats everyone elses records?

But yes, watching the F16s and F18s peeling over head is very cool and when they take off as your at V2 is especially noisy and fun!

[Capt Claret]

36 minute taxi yesterday. Push back interrupted part way through manoeuvre to allow Metro to taxi behind as #1.

I think 12 arrivals and 3 departures in that 36 minute block, with lighties being asked to make best speed to field and then take RWY (36) right or first taxi-way. One lightie becoming unstable during flare and subsequent bounces.

F** from Singapore, approaching E, landing on RWY11 being asked to take Delta to right if able!

[Skynews]

CC,

Darwin is a RAAF ATC training base.
Give them a brake, you should willingly accept delays and understand we were all there at some stage.
The type of problems you mentioned are extremely common, (we all see them every day in Darwin) as is non standard r/t, and problems coming to grips dealing with STaRs.

Its nothing new, Darwin ATC has struggled to reach a satisfactory standard since Noak was a lad, get used to it.

Think of it like the Bankstown of ATC, after all we aren't paying for the fuel, just donating some of our time to the cause.

[Capn Bloggs]

Ixixly,
when they take off as your at V2 is especially noisy and fun!
Not on the same runway, I hope! :}

36 minute taxi yesterday.
Oooh, the enviro-nazis will want soembody's guts for garters about that! :{

[Skynews]

Holding on the ground, 35mins, holding overhead Lee Point 30mins so far... its freaking annoying, specially when the trainee ATCs are on and your pulling hair waiting at the holding point for a 210 on 5mile final.... whats everyone elses


Is that due pitch black?

Sounds ops normal to me!

but yes, watching the F16s andU F18s peeling over head is very cool and when they take off as your at V2 is especially noisy and fun!

What on earth does that mean:confused:

[longrass]

CC,

Darwin is a RAAF ATC training base.
Give them a brake, you should willingly accept delays and understand we were all there at some stage.
The type of problems you mentioned are extremely common, (we all see them every day in Darwin) as is non standard r/t, and problems coming to grips dealing with STaRs.

Its nothing new, Darwin ATC has struggled to reach a satisfactory standard since Noak was a lad, get used to it.

Think of it like the Bankstown of ATC, after all we aren't paying for the fuel, just donating some of our time to the cause.


your a clown aye....

for those that pay airways and landing fees, pay for their fuel and run to a tight budget, every minute on the ground and air for that matter counts.

obviously never had to work a day in your life have you...

[Skynews]

Been working as a pilot for just over 30 yrs approaching 20,000 hrs, and paid for every last sent of my own training, $25 hr back then, you?

[Ducksarse]

That's the best post I've read all day.

Logging off happy :E

[Counter-rotation]

Longrass

Sarcasm is the default setting here at PPRuNe - I thought you knew that?! :ok:

[206greaser]

Skynews, 30 years in Aviation, 20,000 hours and 9 posts on pprune...ok

Mate "willingly accept delays", are you freaking kidding?? Tell me you are! We have been advised to carry 15 mins holding with regard to Pitch Black opps. Fair enough they're up there protecting us, and good on them! Also the vast majority of the time i have found the controllers very friendly, and obliging. However, having to hold for well in excess of 45 mins after being told 10 is a bloody joke! I confirmed my slot time twice, and was very chuffed at having the exact estimate for Darwin as my slot. Pax on board pointing to darwin, little kid having to go to the dunny, last light coming up fast, LAHSO approved. Willingly accept delays?!?! Get stuffed! :ugh:

All i was looking for was to see if there are any records for holding. Thats all. Not a bitch fest about the RAAF doing their job.

Cheers,
Greaser

10 mins at the holding point with a massive boner watching 8 F-18's, and 2 F-111's taking off today! Glorious!

[The Voice]

oh my dear Clarrie .. I think someone thinks you've been put back in your box!! bwahahaha too funny!

some people should just not start things :hmm:

[Capt Claret]

G'day Voice,

They don't need a brake (sic) 'cause it seems their foot is firmly planted on it.

[Skynews]

Ahhh, the Y generation.
They are something aren't they.:D
No fooling you guys.

[dudduddud]

Is there anywhere around the airport you can go to get a clear view of the action? Is there a lookout or anything where you can see the runway and apron and things?

[Skynews]

The Tower!

If your a pilot(I assume you are) give them a call, you can normally organize visits, that may well be different during the exercise ?? Other wise the eastern end of the runway down nay Winnellie is best.

[lurker999]

Amy Johnson has a parking area on the centreline basically.

There's a spare block between air north and something else up past TNT, AAE which is side on.

or play golf on the RAAF golf course if they are taking off towards bagot rd. F111s rattle your teeth

[Capn Bloggs]

Is there anywhere around the airport you can go to get a clear view of the action? Is there a lookout or anything where you can see the runway and apron and things?
In the terminal - upstairs opposite the coffee shop, on the tarmac side is a small SMOKERS areahttp://www.smilies.our-local.co.uk/index_files/smokinggun.gif where you can smell and hear the outside action. Good view of the runway.

[The Green Goblin]

Quote:
Is there anywhere around the airport you can go to get a clear view of the action? Is there a lookout or anything where you can see the runway and apron and things?
In the terminal - upstairs opposite the coffee shop, on the tarmac side is a small SMOKERS area where you can smell and hear the outside action. Good view of the runway.

Very typically Darwin isn't it:D

You can smoke and drink after passing through security until you board your flight :p

Don't think the other domestic terminals have the same facilities. You used to be able at Perth but they closed off that option about 5 years ago. Not sure about the others.

[longrass]

Yeah good one mate, your a champion aren't ya!

[Howard Hughes]

whats everyone elses records?
When I was in Darwin my record was 'number 16 to land'...:eek:

[Capt Claret]

Today:

'Reduce not above 250 kits'.

'reduce not above 210 kits'.

'Reduce to min approach speed'.

Get to min approach, on the LOC, about 2500' and,

'go around, maintain rwy track, climb to 4000'.

Then, multiple TCAS paints as well as T/A as a flock of military fast jets descend through our level, as we climbed through theirs, with I'd estimate less than a mile's lateral separation. :eek: Followed by a 40 nm circuit. :sad:

[Capn Bloggs]

T/A as a flock of military fast jets descend through our level
I assume a fair amount of mumbling-flocking going on in your cockpit at the time about the situation, Clarrie?

Don't worry, Dick will make the next exercise in Class E. Only a vanishingly small chance of a midair then.

http://www.smilies.our-local.co.uk/index_files/tongue.gif

[Capt Claret]

Bloggsie,

There was a mumble or two. How'd you know?

Mind you, Bloggs was given some minutes notice that it was going to go pear shaped.

Ahhh, the Y generation.
They are something aren't they.
No fooling you guys

Speaking of the Y Generation ...

http://pegasus.bigpondhosting.com/PPRuNe/ATT00014.JPG

[Flogged Horse]

"with I'd estimate less than a mile's lateral separation"

Saw that with my own two eyes....BULLS%$T FLAG has been raised. Stop talking rubbish Claret.

You were also well above the cct! "GO AROUND AT 2500'"???

But don't let me stop your great story.

Also why did you need a LOC??? WX was standard dry season mate.....Just saying.

[Capt Claret]

Well mate next time I'm instructed to reduce to min approach well above the circuit, or cleared "29 ILS", or told to "go around", I'll argue the toss & tell them a flogged horse told me I shouldn't be doing it. Shall I?

You saw it but did you hear it too? What was your estimate of the lateral separation? Just asking...

[Flogged Horse]

I did hear it. I was behind you.

"I'll argue the toss & tell them a flogged horse told me I shouldn't be doing it. Shall I?" Remind me where I told you not to comply with ATC instructions again?

"What was your estimate of the lateral separation? Just asking..."... 2.3NM min but what would I know??

I'm not saying the flow is perfect but if XX (note double figures) of jets can recover in the time it takes you to fly a full 29ILS then I'm just saying maybe there is a way through your upper echelons that you could request more of a practical pattern entry for your ops. I'm not throwing spears at what you do at all!! I understand that you're not going to throw it onto final at full cooker. I'm just saying that before you start kicking and screaming about a breakdown of separation (less than a mile is total BS), you might consider to attempt trying to break the norm that lies between you and DN ATC.

Again, not a personal attack but lets leave the sensational claims to the lurking media that seem to lie round these traps shall we?

[Skynews]

I guess the ATSB report will reveal all, won't it. Be watching with interest. As for why do a LLZ in VMC, read the star and your questions will be answered.

I recall about 18 yrs ago departing Darwin and was passed reasonably close to an Australian Airlines 737. I leveled off and questioned my clearance, the approach controller advised we had more than 5 nm. I had excellent eyesight back then, as I could read the rego on the rear from 5 nm apparently.

No point questioning military minds, they are never wrong, just ask one.

[Capt Claret]

Well i guess I'd better defer to your distance judgement, there's no way i could pick the distance to a tenth of a nm.

I'm still confused though. If you saw and heared it, you must know we were on the ILS because that's what we'd been cleared for, and that we were in the landing configuration. What else would you call the manoeuvre where one climbs away from the runway, and reconfigures from landing to enroute configuration?

And just to be clear, I don't know what the separation was which is why I estimated it to be less than a mile. I'm surprised that it was 2.3 miles but even that is less than the 3 nm separation that I understand is required. From where I sat it looked very close.

[Capn Bloggs]

Flogged Horse sounds like a very sensitive chappy (or breath test at 0130?). Claret did say "estimated".

If an RPT jet at 2500ft on final, fully configured, then has to bugger off out of the way for some minutes, then that's piss-poor sequencing, regardless of what the knucks were doing.

Again, not a personal attack but lets leave the sensational claims to the lurking media that seem to lie round these traps shall we?
Not looking forward to when he does attack someone... :uhoh:

[RAAFASA]

Sequencing issues aside, just because there was less than a 3nm radar standard doesn't mean there was no separation.

3nm by radar is intended to achieve at least 1nm in reality (which means you can be just 1nm from another aircraft if a procedural standard was applied (eg 1 north of, and the other 1nm south of, a line feature etc).

In your case, separation was more likely achieved visually (by the TWR, by the military pilots having you in sight and maintaining their own sep etc - they do make a living out of sighting and not crashing into other acft after all, although they do usually shoot them out of the sky....:))

And yes, I have worked DN APP (loved it!), but, alas, am no longer there so don't know the particulars of this case. If you are truly concerned, you should ASOR/ESIR it.

[The Green Goblin]

Put in an incident report :ok:

[Skynews]

although they do usually shoot them out of the skyreminds me of that auster over Sydney some years back. You should feel safe:rolleyes:

[OZBUSDRIVER]

While we have some Mil online...wrt fuel state on these exercises, how many minutes endurance left when these guys recover to the field?

[RAAFASA]

Re: endurance - depends on acft type and the mission requirements, but, often, not a lot! Generally they'll call min/emerg fuel with APP, but, sometimes they'll call it while they're still in the exercise area (especially if APP have told them to stay there/clearance not yet available - due to trying to get you lot on the ground first!)

You'd have to ask a pilot for the specifics (and they probably wouldn't be allowed to tell you anyway).:)

[Skynews]

More important to me, do the ATCers know what fuel we are arriving with?

Of course that varies from aircraft to aircraft company to company but do they know what the minimum iswe have to carry and some do?

[OZBUSDRIVER]

Thought as much...a little leeway and some understanding from the civ side :ok:

[Skynews]

Yep, just like we get from "them"!

[Dogimed]

:}According to Air Commodore Mel Hupfeld, Commander Air Combat Group, there were no losers.

"Pitch Black is a very complex high end training exercise which has provided some very interesting and extraordinarily challenging air combat opportunities for all of the crews.


Pigs musta been on the winning side...

:ok::ok::ok:

Just read the bottom..
The Red Force comprised RAAF F/A-18 Hornets and Hawks, while the Blue Force involved Republic of Singapore Air Force (RSAF) and Royal Thai Air Force (RTAF) F-16 Fighting Falcons; and RAAF Hornets and F-111s. They were supported by a Royal New Zealand Air Force C-130, an RSAF E2-C Hawkeye Airborne Warning and Control aircraft and an RSAF KC135 tanker.




Oh, and just for the record - Blue Force won.

[AussieNick]

watched the pigs take off lastnight while waiting on Bravo 2. my god they are loud close up :ok:

[Skynews]

Claret,
I've been monitoring the ATSB site re your near miss. Nothing has been posted as yet. I assume you submitted one?

I'm interested in following the outcome.

[Capt Claret]

Skynews, you assume correctly. :}

[Skynews]

Can you let us know with a link when you see it on the ATSB.
Please

[morno]

Skynews,
Not everything appears on the ATSB weekly summary. I put in a report last year sometime, and it never showed up on the summary.

Why are you so keen?

morno

[Skynews]

Is it a problem for you that I am interested?

[Ixixly]

Hey Skynews, is it a problem for you that Morno has an interest in your interest of Cpt Claret?

[sleeve of wizard]

Capt Claret, if the fast jets were so close why did you not get an RA?as you previously mentioned you got a TA.
A TA is a prediction another aircraft will enter the conflict airspace in 25 to 45seconds. TAs assist the flight crew in establishing visual contact with the other aircraft.
An RA is a prediction that another airplane will enter the TCAS conflict airspace within approximately 20 to 30 seconds.

[Capt Claret]

Sleeve, I can't answer that. We did get a TA and I assume there was no RA because the TCAS was able to determine that there was sufficient lateral separation to avoid a collision.

It was the TA that brought their proximity to our attention in the midst of the go around.

[flighthappens]

did anything come from Clarets complaint to ATSB