Sydney Parallel Runway Separation Distance

[regitaekilthgiwt]

Hi there,

Just wondering if anyone can tell me (preferably with a reference), what the distance between the two parallel runways in Sydney Kingsford Smith are (m)?

The AIP states this and that depending on the separation distance of the parallel runways, ie wake turbulence separation, dependent/independent approaches, radar separation etc.

It also now says "These procedures apply exclusively at Sydney (Kingsford Smith) aerodrome" but fails to specify the distance. :ugh:

Many thanks.

Rgitttttt

[Atlas Shrugged]

You can work it out for yourself here:
http://www.airservices.gov.au/publications/current/dap/SSYAD01-123.pdf

[regitaekilthgiwt]

Thanks Atlas,

Was thinking of measuring it off the chart but want an actual figure, hopefully with a reference.

Cheers

[OZBUSDRIVER]

Consult your AIP and all will be revealed:ok:

Simultanious parrallel runway ops at SY (Kingsford Smith) (http://www.airservicesaustralia.com/publications/current/aip/enr/1_1_1-116.pdf)

Page 51 and read ENR21 on...

[jetstar1]

1035.05m - Google Earth

[regitaekilthgiwt]

Oz Bus Driver,

Ummmm yeah, the AIP, thats why I am asking this question :ugh:



Jetstar 1,

Thanks for that, I used google earth too mate and came up with about 980m. So not really a good enough reference.



To explain the origin of the question..

Page 51, enr 21
PARALLEL RUNWAY OPERATIONS AT SYDNEY (KINGSFORD-SMITH)
22. WAKE TURBULENCE
22.1 ATC will apply wake turbulence radar separation to aircraft in the approach and departure phases of flight when both aircraft are using parallel runways separated by less than 760M.

To spell it out...
Soooooooooo... If I take off on 16L and an A380 has taken off before me on 16R and the distance between the runways is less than 760m I cannot take off until 4' after the A380 has.

I know this is not the case as they are not separated by less than 760m (Google earth at least confirms this), but as they are not separated by less than 760m why the f**k is this section 22.1 in the AIP under "These procedures apply exclusively at Sydney (Kingsford Smith) aerodrome."??

Anyhow I would just like to find out officially by what distance they are separated. For instance, reading on:

Independent parallel approaches may be conducted to parallel runways with centrelines separated by more than 1,035M provided that:
a. for runways separated by greater than 1,525M, suitable surveillance
radar with a minimum azimuth accuracy of 0.3° (one sigma) and update period of 5 seconds or less is available;
b. for runways separated by less than 1,525M, a suitable surveillance radar with a minimum azimuth accuracy of 0.06° (one sigma) and update period of 2.5 seconds or less and a high resolution display providing position prediction and deviation alert, is available;


So what is the distance of separation of the parallel runways at Sydney so I can know which one applies??

Surely it must be written somewhere or someone knows the distance? :hmm:

[jetstar1]

Are you sure you measured centreline to centreline? I have found GE incredibly accurate to date. As you point out, >1035m is the magic number to allow PRM approaches to occur.

[regitaekilthgiwt]

Hey mate,

Nah I measured runway to runway, don't know if it specifies if thats runway edge to runway edge, centreline to centreline or what? Funny how everyone interprets thing differently.

All I want to know is the certified distance so I can know which rules do and don't apply with no ambiguity!

Cheers

[jetstar1]

Independent parallel approaches may be conducted to parallel runways with centrelines separated by more than 1,035M provided that

From your post above, extract from AIP

[OZBUSDRIVER]

Always believed that 760m was the separation between aircraft. Allows a very small deviation on approach before alarm is triggered an both aircraft must breakout.

[OZBUSDRIVER]

If in doubt, consulte google-
A Pilot's guide to ILS PRM approaches (http://www.airservicesaustralia.com/projectsservices/projects/prm/pilotsguide.asp)

Does this help? What you appear to be asking actually refers to the refresh rate and signal resolution of the radar.

[regitaekilthgiwt]

jetstar1,

Haha, thanks for pointing out that to me. doh.

I didn't pick it up as my question really as much as anything relates to the wake turbulence separation which is just "parallel runways separated by less than 760M", no mention of centreline. I am guessing for the different types of approaches it mentions the centreline because of the tracking on the Localiser. Reading on other references to departures mentions the centreline so perhaps its just an omission with the reference the wake turbulence, or perhaps not!?

Oz bus driver. Tried a google search, still no reference to the actual distance between the runways. The only mention of Sydney in your link is "In implementing PRM in the RWY 16 direction at Sydney, Airservices, has provided assurance that it will, consistent with the overriding concern for air safety, take action to limit the northern extent downwind leg and to minimise the length of time that aircraft maintain 3000ft. "
So they do do PRM at Sydney because the runways are less than 1,525m. Ok there is some sort of reference. But how much less are they than 1,525m...


I ask this question because I want to know which bits in the "Parallel Runway Operations at Sydney" in the AIP apply. And if it is the answer is somewhere around the 980m/1035m we suspect it to be then why on earth have information like the less than 760m wake turbulence requirements included in the section under Sydney until they actually build a runway paralleling less than 760m??

Honestly I thought this was an easy question with an easy answer. I would have thought someone would know distance between the 2 parallel runways in Sydney...

[Trent 972]

1037 metres, according to 'Sydney Airport Corp (http://docs.google.com/viewer?a=v&q=cache:00lUvy6N21gJ:www.sydneyairport.com.au/SACL/DownloadDocument.ashx%3FDocumentID%3D126+sydney+airport+runw ay+16+searation+design&hl=en&gl=au&pid=bl&srcid=ADGEESjg65-_HrIGfTr6ZCkJfeKQTFw-xYz2feGmEpOnjOVNpekH34J2kREbVjGMx3cB1C5ds1RotOtArCuy2MIUdFe0 G2tBGc_Qv_UUVjxgaODqL_uiuAjVxcsyN5yJbQDJuKDH2VeX&sig=AHIEtbRaKUC8pglroXjxni5vCuLyX3N7Gw).'
(3rd line of page 54 / page 4 of the 10 page doc.)

[missy]

1037m is correct.

[regitaekilthgiwt]

Thanks both, the answer is appreciated.

Missy, do u know if 1037m is centreline to centreline or if its the distance the runways themselves are separated.

Its funny, my Aug AIP amendment arrived in the mail and they have changed the title of the section to Parallel Runways at Class C aerodromes (or something like that, dont have it in front of me). They have also deleted the reference to wake turbulence, but the 760m is still included in the wake turbulence section further on.

Many thanks again all that tried to help, Jetstar google maps wasnt far off!

Cheers and missy or anyone else if you could answer my other question that would be appreciated.

thgiwt