MEP One eng inop Stall

[nariman]

Hello all!

Have recently started flying the Piper Seneca 3 for my ME Instrument rating.

A couple of days ago we tried how to exit a stall when flying with one engine inop.

I must say It was/is quite tricky. My instructor kept saying that Im not supposed to counter act the yaw-induced bank with the ailerons, but instead work more activly with the rudder. I agree.
But I still find it tricky not to..

Do you guys have any tips?

We're thaught to first
Reduce power
Lower nose to -10
Retract gear+flaps and apply power at the same time
Work with the rudder when applying power

Thanks

[IrishJetdriver]

Listen to your instructor. You should have learned stall recovery a long time ago.

Try and pick up the dropped wing with aileron and you could progress rapidly to the single engine spin.

[pitot_noob]

Our ME IR tests only included Final / Turning stall with the screens up. No clean or 'one engine', i'm pretty sure that is standard.

[Tee Emm]

A couple of days ago we tried how to exit a stall when flying with one engine inop.Listen to your instructor. You must be joking taking advice from any instructor that dabbles in single engine stalling.

Your instructor is totally irresponsible for putting you into such a bloody dangerous situation. If he likes risking your life like that then tell him to find a suitable flight simulator and practice in that until the cows come home. But single engine stalls- he must be mad and the CAA should be advised he has a medical condition.

The following advice is taken from the Beech Baron B55 Pilot Information Manual, page 10-27 Safety Information. The advice therein would apply to most twin engine light aircraft.

"If the aircraft is allowed to become fully stalled while one engine is providing lift-producing thrust, a rapid rolling and yawing motion may develop even against full aileron and rudder, resulting in the aircraft becoming inverted during the onset of a spinning motion. Once the aircraft is allowed to reach the rapid rolling and yawing condition, the pilot must immediately initiate the generally accepted spin recovery. The longer the pilot delays before taking proper corrective action, the more difficult recovery will become."
Presumably both the instructor and you are certified to undertake spinning?

.

[philc1983]

Totally irresponsible. You should not be attempting single engine stalls. Why not try engine out ditching in the sea. That's useful training too. Unbelievable! :ugh::ugh::ugh:

[SSTR Man]

When I read this post I tried to recall what I did in my MEP training…..but certainly didnt do this. The closest I got was very low speed with power to identify the handling characteristics.

That doesn’t cater for a power-off stall on one engine though...which I presume is the point of the exercise you’re doing?


If that’s the case, the instinctive reaction would be to push the nose down and apply power and rudder, as you’ve said. But surely the most important thing in a multi would be to check you’re above VMCA before you touch the live throttle otherwise you’re going to find yourself upside down rather quickly. Although pitching to -10 degrees would probably take you over VMCE quite quickly, a -10 degree pitch on a base turn will take you into the ground quite quickly too. I’d assume the base turn is the most likely place for you to have a power-off stall on one engine, and therefore I’m not sure what the thought behind practicing that technique is.


An interesting thread. I’d be interested in other people opinions.

[nariman]

Thanks for your anwers.

To clear things out a bit.

We never go into stall, but we are fairly close. We go into buffeting, then exit.

The Vmca is ca 70KCAS according to the flight manual.
THe buffeting occurs at lower speed around 60.

As you pointed out, with -10 on the nose we reach Vmca quite fast.

Maybe this isn't a requirement when doing the class rating, but still an interesting thing to try out.

[what next]

Hello!

The Vmca is ca 70KCAS according to the flight manual.
THe buffeting occurs at lower speed around 60.

So he really teaches you to go below Vmca on one engine? You should stay away as far as you can from that person and report the incident to your head of training or the authorities, before he kills someone.

[Midland Transport]

Change your instructor the guy is dangerous nobody in their right mind would take a MEP aeroplane to the point of a stall on one engine in real life. This activity is for the SIM only. If the location you are training does not have a good ME SIM then I really suggest you change. You can spend hours in the SIM practising these emergency procedures at lower costs and less strain on your heart and those of the people you are flying over!

[nariman]

"So he really teaches you to go below Vmca on one engine? You should stay away as far as you can from that person and report the incident to your head of training or the authorities, before he kills someone."

Yes, but from my point of view he's not teaching me how to go below Vmca, that is easy, just bull back on the stick :)

He's trying to show what could happen if you find yourself in that situation, and what to do and not to.

To straighten out one more thing.
We have both engines operative. Just that one of the engines is set to "simulate" the drag of one engine inop.

So it seems that there are not so many who have done this in real life?

Anyways, thanks for your feedback!

[itsbrokenagain]

nariman, either you made up this story, or you are just as dangerous as your instructor.... :=

You do understand the implication of what you said here... "Just that one of the engines is set to "simulate" the drag of one engine inop " makes it even more dangerous... especially if it did roll over on its back if it did stall.

If you did this and thought it was normal, your a fool, dont talk to us here talk to higher level instructor in the school. If it is all something you made up(which I hope it is) I hope you have learnt how dangerous this is.

Question look for single engine stalls and flight below Vmca in the your flight manual, if it says its ok to do it go for it (but I know it wont!) These books are written for a reason, and it isnt to fill pages with print!

[Big Pistons Forever]

Nariman

your instructor is criminally negligent

I once had a student of mine stall the aircraft (PA34-200) on the engine failure after a balked approach exercise. Inexplicably when I pulled the engine he rapidly applied full back stick :eek: Instead of immediately taking control I stupidly first tried to talk to him. The wasted time allowed the airspeed to decay (this happened very quickly due to gear down full flap landing configuration) and the airplane stalled and violently snap rolled. When I took control the aircraft was inverted and 40 deg nose down. I am firmly convinced the only reason we did not die that day was because I was also an aerobatic instructor and knew how to recognize the orientation of the aircraft and recover.


One of the problems with many of the multiengine trainers (Duchess, Seminole etc) is that the VMC speed is very close to the clean stall speed. IMO you should never be near VMC in flight...ever. VMC recoveries can safely be demonstrated by ony useing half rudder travel which ensures that loss of directional control will occur at a speed well above actual VMC.

[Guttn]

Vmca is one of those abosultes which you don`t defy. Ever. Mabe in a sim to see what can really happen and to scare yourself and hopefully learn from the experience. I totally understand the need to find the boundaries and so on, but you`re a student - not a test pilot. And probably neither is your instructor. What can happen if you do stall below Vmca is what we used to call a Vmc-rollover. Previously mentioned here as a snaproll. It`s called a rollover for a reason, and it`s not a slow rate through the roll. Ever entered a spin? This is faster! You can get out of it, but you shouldn`t be there in the first place. The second thing that can happen is a flat spin. And then, you most likely land flat on the earth at a high rate of descend, effectively killing yourself, all the aircraft occupants, and there`s a chance that you hit someone innocent on the ground.
Training approaches to single engine stall is some thing else. You then slowly enter the maneouver and recover just as you almost lose rudder authority. This is very close to Vmca, and that`s why it`s important to recover correctly using the controls and engine in a correct and timely manner. This could just save your butt one day:ok:

[AutothrustBlue]

First: Yikes! :mad: :{

Second: I think you need to find someone new to fly with. If you stall a multiengine piston airplane with one engine inoperative (simulated or otherwise) you WILL depart controlled flight UNLESS you are rather brisk on retarding the throttle (load lever for Diamond folks) and lowering the nose...

Don't confuse "stalling" the airplane with a Vmc demonstration - something our FAA requires us to do on multiengine rides. Here in the States, we demonstrate going *near* Vmca, and the maneuver goes something like this:

Airsped: Vsse or better
Critical engine - windmilling (throttle idle)
Reduce airspeed slowly (1 knot/sec)
Recovery - at first sign of stall (e.g. stall warning) or departure from controlled flight, retard operating engine throttle to IDLE, and lower the nose
Accelerate to and maintain Vyse, slowly increase operating engine power to MCT


Note that the maneuver is OVER if (1) the airplane approaches a stall or (2) attempts to depart controlled flight - that is, you run out of rudder authority. This is because if you stall the airplane, you're going to kill someone.

[pitot_noob]

I reckon the last post has nailed it. I remember doing that over in the USA and was wondering if that is was the OP meant!

[AutothrustBlue]

I reckon the last post has nailed it. I remember doing that over in the USA and was wondering if that is was the OP meant!
I think that a properly performed Vmc demonstration is actually a good thing to be able to do, too. Anyone who is paying enough attention will get right and proper scared the first time they do one...either because the stall horn came on or because you run out of rudder and the airplane still turns.

Below Vmc...lower the nose, close both throttles and accept what ye are about to receive.

[hugh flung_dung]

Just to add my voice to that of BPF and ATB - the initial post must be either a wind-up or the result of a misunderstanding. I have never stalled when asymmetric and intend never to do so.

In the UK the airborne teaching sequence is in essence:

sym 1: get the bod familiar with the systems and handling
sym 2: get the bod able to fly circuits with both engines working normally
asym 1: teach the effects and immediate actions of engine failures
asym 2: explore minimum control speeds in different configurations, EFATO at altitude, shutdown and restart
asym 3: engine failures in the circuitI assume (hope!) that nariman misunderstood the asym2 exercise. I teach this first dirty and windmilling, then clean and windmilling, then clean and zero thrust, then with 5deg AOB to live engine. One hand remains on the live throttle at all times. At each stage the exercise is stopped when a control limit is reached or IAS lowers to Vs+5 for that configuration. Recovery is to retard the live and lower the nose!
The punchline is to recognise the lower Vmc or decreased control deflection needed at each stage.

HFD

[michael95u]

Airsped: Vsse or better
Critical engine - simulated zero thrust
Reduce airspeed slowly (1 knot/sec)
Recovery - at first sign of stall (e.g. stall warning) or departure from controlled flight, retard operating engine throttle to IDLE, and lower the nose
Accelerate to and maintain Vyse, slowly increase operating engine power to MCT
Number 3 is wrong. The Vmc demonstration is accomplished with the critical engine WINDMILLING. Which means full idle, but not set for zero thrust. Doing this maneuver with zero thrust set could get you into big trouble.

[AutothrustBlue]

Number 3 is wrong. The Vmc demonstration is accomplished with the critical engine WINDMILLING. Which means full idle, but not set for zero thrust. Doing this maneuver with zero thrust set could get you into big trouble.
Yeah, senior moment. Didn't do this with the PTS in front of me, and it's been a good long time. Fixed. Thanks :ok:

[adverse-bump]

what has happened to common sense and airmanship with you low houred lot!

one engine stall

think about what you want to do - unstall the plane, the only way to unstall a wing is by reducing the angle of attack (ie stick the dam nose down) dont start dicking about with power (you can guarantee you'll be below your Vmca). once the ac is unstalled (above Vmca) feed in power/rudder, and if the speed is sensible use some aileron.

[adverse-bump]

as for this being dangers rubbish. - dont be such a wimp! have you never spun a plane!

you can do anything with a plane as long as you have enough time to sort it out if it goes wrong. dont you think an FI will have thought of this!! if he tells you to do at 200ft then I might be inclined to speak up but otherwise dont be such a puff!

[john_tullamarine]

A few interesting thoughts in this thread.

Perhaps I can make some observations.

(a) book Vmca is extrapolated to sea level during the certification program so, unless your POH specifies the value for other than SL, presume that to be the case

(b) provided you are either non turbo/supercharged or above FT height, the real world Vmca will decrease with increasing height

(c) book Vmca is for pretty much worse case circumstances, including aft CG

(d) the above indicates that real world Vmca usually is less than the book figure which is why folk can operate as IAS less than book Vmca value hence the observation

The Vmca is ca 70KCAS according to the flight manual.
THe buffeting occurs at lower speed around 60.

(e) one of the pertinent problems with Vmca demonstrations is that we do those at some height .. and with increasing height we usually have the problem of Vmca being near or less than stall.

(f) if you stall with significant yawing inputs (rudder or asymmetric thrust) you invite a spin.

(g) you will search a long time before you find a POH which suggests that you should be playing with asymmetric stalls - potentially very dangerous stuff

(h) the certification stall techniques have varied over the years. Tee Emm refers to the Beech - with some Baron models, even holding the approach to the stall into a fully developed stall invites an uncommanded inverted spin - and that with throttles at idle - food for thought ?

The Vmc demonstration is accomplished with the critical engine WINDMILLING. Which means full idle, but not set for zero thrust. Doing this maneuver with zero thrust set could get you into big trouble.

I'm a bit confused here - why would zero thrust be a problem cf flight idle ? - presuming that you are not talking about some oddball aircraft systems problem.

once the ac is unstalled (above Vmca) feed in power/rudder, and if the speed is sensible use some aileron.

you can do anything with a plane as long as you have enough time to sort it out if it goes wrong

.. and, if you are already in a spin ? which may be not readily recoverable .. methinks your (over) confidence might exceed your knowledge and experience.

[AutothrustBlue]

as for this being dangers rubbish. - dont be such a wimp! have you never spun a plane!
:mad:

Fixing to here real soon now, but I'm not going to load up in a Seminole (Twinstar, whatever) to do them...I'm going to get a Citabria (Champ, Decathlon, etc.) and spin it. Matter of fact, I have yet to fly a multiengine airplane that isn't placarded against intentional spins.

Furthermore, I don't know how to get out of a flat spin, which can (and does) develop as a result of failure to avoid stalling the airplane with one engine inoperative. I have a vested interest in remaining alive.

I'm a bit confused here - why would zero thrust be a problem cf flight idle ? - presuming that you are not talking about some oddball aircraft systems problem.
I don't think there's an aerodynamic problem, I misquoted the PTS. :ugh: Feathering the propeller (e.g. zero thrust) reduces Vmca.

[john_tullamarine]

Feathering the propeller (e.g. zero thrust) reduces Vmca.

That's fine .. the concern is with ill-considered use of flight idle. More than a few turboprop crews have either been frightened (or killed) with engine cuts and subsequent drag excursions with associated handling problems.

Not a simple matter.