BBC: Homeless in Dubai

[Jumeirah James]

If you come and live here, don't get in trouble with the Banks:

BBC News - Homeless in Dubai: One man's story (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-10665047)

:(

[kotakota]

This is very scary , a minor issue in UK , but not here . This is a classic case of an immature and undeveloped system where no-one talks to each other , and the poor bas***d is hung out to dry . They love sticking it to expats .
They cannot see that he came back to Dubai , ie ops normal , and had not done a runner . This is probably over a very small amount of credit , love to know how much. Time we started a shelter .

[crazyplane123]

this whole Arab society still operates in 17th century mentality, just look how they are killing each other in that region.:ugh:

[MrMachfivepointfive]

Consultant in alternative medicine? Where I am coming from that's called a 'Snake Oil Salesman'. Not everybody is innocent and not everything that's written is gospel.

[kotakota]

Ok sorry my 5.5 , did not know that life was so fair in Dubai.
Surely , if said 'criminal' was really guilty then he should be locked up ?
Think you have missed the point here , but maybe you are part of the problem when it comes to justice ?
What I am really saying is , SORT IT , stop this ridiculous no mans land .

[fjordviking]

Maybe we can get Tom Hanks to play in this Dubai version of The Terminal.
Just throw in a couple of explosions and a live car chase on SZR for marketing to the local crowd.

[powderpufff]

He owes approx £11,000,not a small amount,if he owed it to any other bank around the world,they too, would want their money back.Or should he get off scott free?
His wife has gone home to Spain,maybe she can apply for a bank loan there and pay the bank back in Dubai.
This report has many holes in it.If you owe money,pay it back,simples!

[BigGeordie]

I agree that the situation in Dubai is crazy- get in debt and they take your passport off you so you can't get a job to pay it off- but it sounds like this guy was very naive. He appears to have come without doing any research, expecting the streets to be paved with gold, and got a nasty shock. Maybe he should have read Pprune first.

[powderpufff]

I'm not so sure he is naive,he owes the bank this money, however,according to the report,he went on holiday at christmas and then returned to Dubai.His wife has gone back to Spain.Now, unless they went on horseback for these journeys,I think it's fair to assume that they paid an airline to fly them.So it would appear that there was money available,that he could have given to the bank.I think he hopes that the publicity from the report,will cast a shadow over Dubai and the system there.I'm curious to know how the BBC got hold of this.

[M-rat]

I'm curious to know how the BBC got hold of this.

I am sure that they, like most, consulted that towering bastion of intellectual fortitude, with its vice-like grip on the zeitgeist: 7 Days :)

[Gulfstreamaviator]

Good name, but only published 6 days a week.

As the media in UAE is state controlled, and 7 days did publish quite a reasonable account, I did not say accurate, but reasonable.

I assume that the feature was vetted prior to publication, just what do the authorities hope to gain from this, the PR will back fire as usual.

Remember: If you owe the Bank 1m$ you are in trouble, if you owe the bank 100m$ they are in trouble. add now: if you owe the bank 1,000m$ the country is in trouble.



glf

[Al Fakhem]

Talk to any UAE bank employee who is not an Emirati, and you'll hear how much the locals owe banks. Strangely, like the traffic law, the legal system does not seem to apply to them.

[Gulfstreamaviator]

That is so true.

What to do.

glf

[Gulf News]

The guy is a naive fool, typical of many people who came to Dubai in the boom years to make their fortune and live the high life. When it all started going pear-shaped those in too deep but wise enough to know how the local system would treat them legged it leaving behind everything, including their debt.

There is obviously more to this case than is being presented in the media however it does serve as a stark illustration for people thinking of coming to the Gulf of how difficult things can get. There are two important messages in this story.

1. It is not a cheap place to live and there are quite substantial costs involved in settling here that are not always apparent.

2. If you get on the wrong side of either the law, the establishment, company management or the indigenous population you will loose no matter how right you think you are.

I am not saying don't come to the Gulf I am just saying do so with your eyes wide open.

[Minibus driver....]

Just out of curiosity.. What would have happened if he did not come back to the UAE.. And made a so called RUNNER..?

Hearing of more and more that leaves without a proper resignation what happens to these persons..?

[rom]

Just again to follow up on Minibus's Question.... There is a large number of persons leaving my current Airline. And I find it intersting that interpool has the time to hunt down persons that have outstandings in a country with no human right's..??

Again not saying it is ok to do just wondering about the power the Banks has outside the UAE..?

And I am in good standing with my BANK..

[Gulf News]

The law in U.A.E. is applied according to who you are. Connections, ethnicity etc.
gulfnews : Two get six-month terms for stealing boxes of nails (http://gulfnews.com/news/gulf/uae/crime/two-get-six-month-terms-for-stealing-boxes-of-nails-1.656948)

I don't for a minute condone theft or dishonesty however I find this statement from the court quite chilling.

"The court stated that according to Sharia law, a person will have his or her hand cut off if they steal even a quarter dirham, but this does not apply to the accused because he admitted to his crime early in the investigations."

What punishment will the real estate frauds get ? The answer is nothing really because they are part of the establishment.

[Old King Coal]

Gulf News - spot-on advice!!... added to which I would say to always make sure you are in a position to walk-away by having few, if any, financial commitments within the UAE.

Minibus driver / rom - Elaborating somewhat, Interpol did not in fact 'hunt him down'. The reality was that Roddy Bassett's father, who just happened to surfing Interpol's website, saw that Roddy was listed upon it under the 'most wanted (http://www.interpol.int/Public/Wanted/Search/Form.asp)' section. Once his father had mentioned this to him, Roddy then went (of his own volition) to the local (UK) Police station to sort it out.

Nb. Interpol's guidance on 'Red Notices (http://www.interpol.int/Public/Wanted/Default.asp)' says:The persons concerned are wanted by national jurisdictions and Interpol's role is to assist the national police forces in identifying or locating those persons with a view to their arrest and extradition. These red notices allow the warrant to be circulated worldwide with the request that the wanted person be arrested with a view to extradition.

The person should be considered innocent until proven guilty.

You can lookup for how many people the UAE has asked Interpol to issue Red Notices (http://www.interpol.int/Public/Wanted/Search/ResultListNew.asp?EntityName=&EntityForename=&EntityNationality=&EntityAgeBetween=15&EntityAgeAnd=95&EntitySex=&EntityEyeColor=&EntityHairColor=&EntityOffence=&ArrestWarrantIssuedBy=UNITED+ARAB+EMIRATES&EntityFullText=&cboNbHitsPerPage=200&cboNbPages=50&Search=Search)… and if you want to see how many of those are marked down for 'Fraud, click here (http://www.interpol.int/Public/Wanted/Search/ResultListNew.asp?EntityName=&EntityForename=&EntityNationality=&EntityAgeBetween=15&EntityAgeAnd=95&EntitySex=&EntityEyeColor=&EntityHairColor=&EntityOffence=Fraud&ArrestWarrantIssuedBy=UNITED+ARAB+EMIRATES&EntityFullText=&cboNbHitsPerPage=200&cboNbPages=50&Search=Search)' (about 75% of the total… which can be actioned even if owing a relatively paltry amount, as in the case of Roddy Bassett (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/england/devon/8413104.stm) mentioned above).

There was actually very little that the local UK police could or would do regarding enforcement, i.e. with regards to making an arrest, as the UK Debtors Act (1869) (http://www.opsi.gov.uk/RevisedStatutes/Acts/ukpga/1869/cukpga_18690062_en_1#pt2-l1g4) effectively abolished imprisonment for being in debt and personal debt (in the UK at least) is a matter of civil law, and not one of criminal law.

Aside - It is the case (in the UK) that you might face arrest / imprisonment only if there had been fraudulent activity associated with the debt, e.g. one obtained credit card through fraudulent means and then ran up a large debt on it, with no intention of ever paying it back. The emphasis here on it being fraudulent intent from the outset.

In terms of a UAE context, imagine that you have a large debt owing on your UAEBank credit card and, for whatever reason, you find that you are no longer able to work in the UAE. You decide to return home to, say, the UK and being out of work, you are unable to pay the bill on your UAEBank credit card.

In respect of your non-payment, UAEBank could file a complaint with the UAE Police. However, with you now being outside of their jurisdiction and with your non-payment being seen as a criminal offence within the UAE, the UAE Police might in turn report you to Interpol (as it ticks the box for the local plod to say that they are doing something (http://www.arabianbusiness.com/592744-uae-banks-using-police-as-debt-collectors--al-mulla)) .

However, as you have not committed an arrest-able offence (under UK law) the UK Police can't arrest you for it, remembering that personal debt in the UK is a civil matter, not a criminal one (as it is in the UAE).

It's certainly the case that you could not be extradited to the UAE as, again, this is not an extraditable 'criminal offence' as (at the very least) it doesn't comply with the principal of 'Dual Criminality (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Extradition#Common_conditions_of_extradition)' and, certainly in this instance, the UK and UAE see 'being in debt' as differing in the law which needs to be applied (civil law vs criminal law). Added to this, the recent (March 2010) ruling by the UK High Court (wrt the denial to extradite Mr Mohammed Lodhi from the UK to the UAE, based much upon the documented basis of the appalling human rights record and likely lack of a fair trial to be had in the UAE) it's very doubtful if extraditions from the UK to the UAE will ever be allowed.

Accordingly any such endeavour to see you 1) locked up and / or 2) extradited would see you sprung from the nick probably faster than I can type the name Perry Mason (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Perry_Mason).

So, in an endeavour to offset their loss, UAEBank might instead contract / sell-on the debt to an 'International' Debt Collection Agency (DCA) and said local DCA might in-turn instruct and / or sell-on the debt to a UK partner DCA, i.e. for them to chase you for it.

Assuming they were able to track you down, you might then start receiving pseudo legalese threat-o-grams from that UK based DCA, no doubt suggesting various heinous outcomes, including threatening to take you to court (in the UK), all designed to intimidate you into paying.

But the fact of the matter is that, a personal debt incurred overseas cannot be used against you in and / or follow you to the UK, it being incurred outside of the jurisdiction of the UK. Foreign based personal debt cannot be transferred and / or enforced through the English civil courts, as the place where the contract was agreed falls out side of their jurisdiction (unless the small-print on your credit card contract said that it was to be judged under UK law, in which case ones personal debt is civil matter in any case; QED ).
So the worse a DCA can do is ask you nicely for the money and if you do not want to give them it, or do not have it, there is NOTHING they can do. Your credit rating will NOT be affected by this and they can NOT get a County Court Judgement (CCJ) against you.

The UK's 'Office of Fair Trading' spells out the obligations upon DCA's (http://www.oft.gov.uk/shared_oft/business_leaflets/consumer_credit/oft664.pdf).

So, once you are back in the UK, other than a moral obligation, there is no UK legally enforceable reason to repay a 'personal debt' that's owed within the UAE (this might well explain why the UAE wants all debts paid off prior to one leaving the UAE ?! ).

Needless to say, with debt(s) still outstanding, one should not return to the UAE and / or be careful to ensure that one won't get nabbed at some 2nd / 3rd World border crossing with a 'Wanted by Interpol' tag against your name.

Well that at least is my understanding of how it works... though I'm certainly open to being enlightened and / or would caution that different countries might have differing laws on this and, obviously, legal advise should always be obtained.

[McGreaser]

Why did the "accused" gentleman decide to collaborate with the BBC in making the making the said documentary when he still had a "bone to chew/smoke some shisha" with the bank ?

Not a very smart move to draw that much attention to yourself when you still in debt:=

[sandpitwantabe]

It sounded like the guy returned to the country to try to sort out the issues, his main problem is that he does not have a passport, which would be important to obtain another job. In Qatar you would not be able to leave the country but you would have your passport so you could obtain employment or at least try to... Thus over time pay off your debts and leave the country.

Life in the sand is not all its cracked up to be.. dont get too much into debt..:=