Is RACWA on finals? YOU WERE WARNED!!

[AirSic]

I refer to the July 2010 edition of Tarmac Topics, an official publication of RACWA, in particular to an article written by Mr Jack Gregor, President and the subsequent resignation of the club CEO on Friday 16th July 2010, Mr Alan Hoffman.

A passage of the article reads...

"Our total hours flown is down by over 2ooo hours for the year. This is a huge revenue loss for us. The reduction has been so severe that our efforts to contain our costs have not been effective enough."

".....Alan Hoffman gave notice that a new business model was essential."

Now he resigns...it's all too hard.

"We have engaged the leading business remodelling and accounting firm WHK Horath to review our business plan and advise us of any changes they think necessary. Howarth are also looking at more effective ways for us to manage the various entities under the Royal Aero Club. This could well mean rolling all our flying activites under the Royal Aero Banner."

Jack, I have a news flash for you.....Aero clubs make money by looking after their members. The reason that you are in this trouble to start with is that you FAILED TO LISTEN TO THE MEMBERS OF THE CLUB. You pontificated about how YOU knew best and everyone else was stupid. The members told you that rolling our flying activities under the Royal Aero Banner was essential. You were trying to be smart.

The CEO - for a club ?- was trying, with Jack Gregor, to run this as a company....seriously, a CEO being paid $$$$ ??? without any income production, or aviation experience. The acquisition of a training business, that was in essence already the clubs for $1m + and what a debacle that has been, the failed attempt at fleet upgrade, on more than 3 occassions, and the half arsed development of the murrayfield project...the list goes on!

I would suggest that the club is now faced with the real threat, and notice has been given, that it will spend some serious monies, that it doesn't have, to try and justify what hasn't worked and move forward with the same morons at the helm.

Jack...get it through your thick skull...RACWA is a club, nothing more, nothing less. Don't spend vast amounts of members money being told that you are losing money...you know that, and for Pete's sake, don't employee some company director that doesn't believe in combining income streams but runs the show as if each element has to be self profitable.....IT WILL NOT WORK!

Listen to the members and realise that this is not a Pty Ltd International trading business....it is a Inc club.

I hope it's not too late, lets see if you can do a Go-Around!

[sixtiesrelic]

Ah! ... the brave new world where people with diplomas know EVERYthing ....
They learned it out of a book at Uni.
Book was written by some dopy dill who has has NO common sense and has never been out in the real world, he hid in the cloisters of the halls of learning.
Where'd he get the info for his book?
He interviewed common folk with common sense.
Problem is... the interviewees weren't asked ALL the questions and expected the dill would know the common sensical stuff.
These bean counters are everywhere, stuffing up companies, clubs etc with their spread shaeets and white boards and "6.4823 units".
Units = people. They can't seem to understand that you can have six people or you can have seven people.
Never mind. It's the ordinary people who pick up the peices and get the show working again while the manager puts includes this episode in his CV and goes on to a higher place to stuff up another company.
It'll take time for the club to get back on it's feet but there's enough common sense and expertise for that to happen amongst the members who'll do it for free.

[solowflyer]

I have never had anything to do with the club and probably never will. I lost intrest when I asked them to do a BFR and they wanted me to do 5 hrs for it:=

[Ex FSO GRIFFO]

Some time ago, at a VERY well attended meeting at the clubrooms, in which the attending members appeared to have VERY little say, the said Pres. emphatically pronounced that there would be no cross-subsidisation of 'entities' - that each 'entity' within the Club would be self supporting.......

I know we have all 'moved forward', but when I was running a couple of country 'aero clubs' many years ago, it was common practice for the various fund raising events and the 'bar'/ bbq, being used to help in providing a lower rate for the members....

Seemed to work OK then.......it was after all, a CLUB for its members.....:ok:

But times have changed....now its all business....and 'touch & go'....:}

[lethalw]

Quote:
"Maybe the hoards of CPL students that used to be there have realised what a dead end career flying has become and are pursuing more lucrative careers."

And what makes aviation a dead-end career??? Didn't everyone's license begin under the instruction by a person in this supposed dead-end career? I suspect it's negativity such as this that turns people off. Ok lets face it the pay is not great to start off with, but is pay everything? Believe it or not, there ARE people out there who value quality of job just as much as financial reward. And it's these people that have passion for the industry and who we need to encourage to stay in the industry.

That's my rant over, not trying to flame anyone in particular, but I think the issue at heart in THIS thread is not the supposed dead-end status of the aviation industry....

[lethalw]

I agree with you being realistic. I can't deny that. But there will always be those that enjoy what they do, for these people a good career choice may not be entirely based on finance, and most 18yo's with a fresh Comm don't have the family thing so they are maybe prepared to 'live the life' for a year or so and move up the chain. I guess it comes down to each individual as to what they desire in their working life...

I'm happy doing what I do, so I guess I'm one of the hens teeth then, but then again I've been very fortunate in my 10 or so years in the industry, so can't speak for the new comers of today!

Your last statement, however, I agree with in principle. A club, regardless of size, always needs to remember that at the end of the day it is the members that need to be looked after and catered for. Without members, there is no club.

[AirSic]

sixtiesrelic, you are absolutely right. We live in a day when the Govt. has decided that they can revenue raise by "training" everyone and anyone then licencing that "profession". Most jobs these days require Diplomas, NOT ON THE JOB TRAINING AND LIFE EXPERIENCE. Then we end up with "I can do it, I have the piece of paper that says so!" mentality.

As Griffo said, a well attended meeting was held, and these stooges brought a lawyer into the meeting, "so that all members can be assured we are doing the right thing"...the minute a member asked a "hairy" question, the CEO and President hid behind the lawyer so as not to have to answer the question.

I am very passionate about the club.....I have been involved in one way or the other with it since I was 16. I remember attending the "great halls" of the demountable when it was in existence.

The basis of the club is strong, but dwindling, the members.

The experiences of people like solowflyer are unfortunate and probably have been experienced at other clubs around Australia and dare I say abroad. These things are inexcusable but inevitable where the rewards of "hours earnt means get out of here quicker". This is one of the reasons why RACWA NEEDS to change the way it employs its instructors.(only one of the issues).

I can name some exceptional instructors that have graced the apron in front of RACWA, not to mention the bar (which is not operated by RACWA anymore). It is natural that people move on, however, Van Gough is correct....life is not a dress rehersal, people want the best they can get for themselves and their families. Pay the instructors properly, KEEP them at the club. If they are not interested in staying, that's fine, don't employ them as instructors in the first place. Instigate a return of service and make it worth their while in hanging around. The interests of the many far outway the interests of the few.

I understand that training new comers is a necessity, but we don't have to employ every person that finishes a comm. or inst. rating.

If RACWA concentrated on providing the best training at a reasonable price, the students will come, then will come the dividends such as money to support the members, then they will come and in turn the circle goes round.

I fear the damage has been done. Bank finance is in place and with limited improved assets and increasing Commercial interest rates, combined with a decrease in revenue, the last thing we as members need is to be throwing money away needlessly.

As sixtiesrelic has said, there are plenty of members with the skills and experience that COULD help the club through this turmoil, but again, many of them have become so disillusioned and dispondent by being shoved away, I fear that they won't be there to help.

Once the CEO and committee have finally been removed, only then will we the members be able to cut through the red tape placed by them, and the Bull#$it will be seen for what it is. Then we might have a chance to take back what once was a great place to fly, instead of the clinical, dollar chasing whore house it has become.

[FokkerInYour12]

Ignoring the other "business areas" at RACWA but just looking at flying rates.

Perhaps it's time that RACWA members got used to paying $250/hr flying costs in a 172 rather than sub $200. Sub $200 is not a sustainable rate unless the level of utilisation is very high. On paper those rates might achieve $5-$10/hr "profit" but unscheduled maintenance is the killer.

This would also increase the profitability of other flying clubs/training companies at Jandakot too, making a generally more viable airstrip.

For too long have RACWA set below market rates for flying.

RACWA members need to realise that flying is not a poor man's hobby.

[Van Gough]

Perhaps it's time that RACWA members got used to paying $250/hr flying costs in a 172 rather than sub $200. Sub $200 is not a sustainable rate unless the level of utilisation is very high. On paper those rates might achieve $5-$10/hr "profit" but unscheduled maintenance is the killer.

Maybe if they got some new aircraft which are not falling apart and cost far less to run as well as reducing all the overheads/managers they could have aircraft rates which are actually affordable again.

I used to love going down to RACWA and renting a plane for a couple of hours. Now it just feels like a ripoff - paying for all the office people etc.

It almost seems as if knocking down the building/morgue and starting again with a small transportable like used to be there 20 years ago would be a good idea...:ok:

[YPJT]

You have to wonder also whether the purchase of WAAC (reputedly for a 7 figure sum) was a smart move?

[FokkerInYour12]

Unfortunately new aircraft have a financing cost associated with them.

eg. Let's say a new aircraft costs $300,000 versus a "30 year old" aircraft at $80,000.

Both financed on a 5 year plan @ 8% interest (which is generous).

New aircraft: Monthly repayments $6100. Total interest paid over 5 years: $65000.

Second hand aircract repayments: Monthly repayments $1600, Total interest paid: $17300

Assume also an average utilisation of 300 hours per year.

The new aircraft costs $244 per hour just on financing alone. Add Avgas ($60), 50 hourlies ($200 each), 100 hourlies (say $2K each), insurance $6K per annum, parking outside on tarmac $1.2K, and you're now looking at $263/hr - then add GST and it's $290/hr. You need to charge this before you even start making a profit. Now a reasonable margin on costs would be 20% (remember you have to also cover admin staff) and you're up to $375/hr inc GST as a chargeout rate.

On the old aircraft, bump up 100 hoursly to $4K each, and another $2K of unscheduled maintenance per year, and your costs are now $179/hr inc GST. Add 20% margin and you're looking at $215/hr inc GST as a chargeout rate.

Now staffing - if you say it takes the equivalent of 1 staff member per 5 aircraft and you pay that staff member an average admin wage of $50,000 that increases your costs by another $30/hr. Add lease rates, accountants, building facilities, briefing rooms, computers for flight planning, etc. and this clearly adds even more.

So why is RACWA perservering with such low low rates?

If they were realistic it would be $260/hr inc GST for a 30 yr old Cessna 172 and $450/hr inc GST for a new one. Perhaps even more.

There's just too many people with long memories thinking "well when I learned to fly it was under $100/hr - these prices are ridiculous!"

This is a problem Australia-wide too - not just RACWA.

[Van Gough]

Let's say a new aircraft costs $300,000 versus a "30 year old" aircraft at $80,000.

What about if they sold 2 old aircraft and replaced with one new? Most of the fleet sits there mostly unused anyway. Less aircraft would mean higher utilization of the newer ones..

If they have to charge $450 an hour they might as well close the doors now.

[YPJT]

I recently saw their rate sheet and by the time you have added on the many extras (such as the instructor and briefng fee and the way marked up landing fees) a lesson in one of thier 152s are going out at about $100 an hour MORE than other schools that have aircraft less than five years old.

The overheads there must be phenomenal. But at the end of the day it's not managers and chief this and that (and all the associated politics) that you need, it's bums on seats and happy punters. And a lot of those are moving elsewhere to sit on newer seats for a more reasonable rate.

There are some great people working at RACWA and I wish them well. But it lost it's way when they built the "Taj Mahal" and since losing the old building it's had about the same atmosphere as the Perth Domestic Terminal.

Whatever is happening there is something that seems to happen to most clubs at some time or another, the committee and the members grow apart and often this is the result of bad communication and misunderstanding, chinese whispers etc. But having a commitee is the price RACWA have to pay if they want to keep thier comfortable tax status.

[prospector]

"If they have to charge $450 an hour they might as well close the doors now."

What would be the average wage for a young buck these days?

When I started an hour in a PA18 was equivalent to a weeks wages. It certainly made for a concentrated effort to pass all the flight tests, theory exams, in the shortest possible time. And after the first job was gained to be paid for flying, it was well worth the effort.

Just for comparison, that PA18 cost three pound ten shillings an hour.:ok:

[FRQ Charlie Bravo]

The best thing about the RACWA is that it acts as a suck hole keeping the riff-raff to that side of JT. I can count the number of times I've been there on one set of hands and feet and the number of times I've left happy or with my mission completed on one hand (sans thumb).

FRQ CB

[kellykelpie]

It is such a shame to hear the great club is on tough times. I too have been going down there since I was a kid, learned to fly there and got my first job there. There is truth in the comment that the club lost its great atmosphere when the old building was replaced.

It has been on tough times before, many years ago when JD took over. He managed to turn it around. Maybe someone can step up and do the same again.

[Rich-Fine-Green]

RACWA new vs. old.

Van Gough is closest to the mark.

Cutting the fleet in half with new aircraft makes sense.

Better scheduling and faster maintenance turnaround would allow for better utilisation of a much smaller fleet.

Secondary savings would also be;

A reduction in maintenance hours would also allow for a few less staff in the workshop.

A smaller fleet would mean one or two less staff in admin.

A firm fleet turnover policy would mean the fleet would be in warranty always
and allow for further savings in breakdown parts. - i.e. start with a new fleet (half the size) and changeover every 3 years when the aircraft (with higher utilisation) reach 3,000 hours. The large USA fleet operators have always run this way - why not RACWA....

Saving of parking fees.

A complete new fleet would help attract new members.

About time to retire the Mooney fleet at least.

[Van Gough]

But it lost it's way when they built the "Taj Mahal" and since losing the old building it's had about the same atmosphere as the Perth Domestic Terminal.

Time to knock it down and start again:ok:

But having a commitee is the price RACWA have to pay if they want to keep thier comfortable tax status.

Logic would say that having a comfortable tax status should mean LOWEST rates at YPJT not HIGHEST:ugh:

[Lodown]

Silly me! I would have thought parts of the problem were GA flight hours in the gurgler and a decrease in the number of students in general. But what would I know?

[htran]

Ignoring the other "business areas" at RACWA but just looking at flying rates.

Perhaps it's time that RACWA members got used to paying $250/hr flying costs in a 172 rather than sub $200. Sub $200 is not a sustainable rate unless the level of utilisation is very high. On paper those rates might achieve $5-$10/hr "profit" but unscheduled maintenance is the killer.

This would also increase the profitability of other flying clubs/training companies at Jandakot too, making a generally more viable airstrip.

For too long have RACWA set below market rates for flying.

RACWA members need to realise that flying is not a poor man's hobby.

Wasn't the issue not enough flying hours, rather than making a loss because the price is too low?

Increasing the price would result in even less flying hours.

I joined RACWA 18 months ago because I thought because it was a non for profit club, the costs would be lower and a more club type atmosphere. The monthly comps are nice, but there isn't much for a club atmosphere, I felt like the WAAC/CPL training kind of dominated and RACWA felt more like a TAFE. One of my instructors who no longer works at RACWA spent half the time texting during my pre-solo circuits! That said I have flown with some really good instructors and don't like how much intructor fees have risen yet the instructors didn't get much of that.

Contrast to my initial 10 hours of training at Basair in Bankstown, where I really felt like the instructors "cared", RACWA didn't seem to be what I had expected.

For example, Dual in C172 at RACWA a not for profit org, $229 + $110

At Basair a for profit company, $254 Dual.

Now I'm not complaining that the price is too high, I'm just saying maybe out costs are too high, or MAYBE increasing prices will not result in more hours being flown.

I just recently did a DA40 conversion at TAC because I got sick and tired of waiting for the "new fleet", and even though I pay $297 + $100 for dual. the plane, its nice and new. So now that I can fly solo in it, I could pay $229 at RACWA for an old C172 or $297 for a new DA40. I think its great that the club has recently been doing weekend specials etc, because for $199 I probably would hire a C172 instead of a DA40, but if the price went to $250, I'd be inclined to pay the extra and fly a nice new plane.

For me its about value for money value for money.

I think that the club should get rid of WAAC and focus on "club" type activities to deliver value to members, rather than making a profit.

[htran]

If they were realistic it would be $260/hr inc GST for a 30 yr old Cessna 172 and $450/hr inc GST for a new one. Perhaps even more.

$450 per hour for a new C172? OMG RACWA would go broke because no one would hire one.

If a for profit organisation can charge the prices below, I think it would be hard to justify $450 per hour

C172S Cessna 172 G1000 avionics (latest model) IFR 269.00
C182T Cessna 182 (latest model) IFR 363.00

[SweetnLow]

htran i agree. i joined RACWA 18 months ago to begin training for PPL. I was initially impressed by the Club and my instructor. I feel there is a big discord in the way the Club operates, specifically with reference to the WAAC fulltime students and its operations, and the weekend part-time private member (of which, I am the later).

In the 18 months since joining, my instructor fee's have been increased 3 times ($80p/h, $90p/h and now $110 p/h) and I know that my instuctor see's little of this increase. Whilst the increase is not a major concern (I was prepared for the cost of learning to fly and went in with my eyes open) it is difficult to see how a Club can operate this way with no communication to members and, what seems to be an ad-hoc approach to their own instructors. Are they increasing my costs to rectify poor financial management? It would appear so, as neither I nor my instructor benefit from the increase in charge (ie I still fly the same 30yr old aircraft and my instructor see's little increase in his hip pocket)

There are some fantastic people at the Club, but I fear their efforts are being let down by what appears to be a committee and/or management that appear to have little understanding of a non-for-profit members club.

Serious fundraising and member campaigns could see the Club get back on line, but I'm guessing they wouldn't want to hear about it.


As a member, I would quite happily volunteer time to assist in pulling the Club back in line.

[Van Gough]

I haven't been there for a while &I just had a look at their price list. Wow.

non member 152 hourly rate - $217
instructor - $110
1 hour brief - $110
Landing fees (4 t&g and 1 full stop) - $38

So a 1 hour dual lesson of circuits & brief in a 30 year old beaten up 152 is $475 !

I wonder if they still charge the dual rate right up to GFPT even for the solo hours?

It should be obvious why the hours flown has dropped so much?:ugh::ugh::ugh:


Also found this gem of wisdom on their website :

What are the Australian/Overseas job prospects for when I complete my licence?

At this stage the aviation industry (worldwide) is desperately short of pilots, there’s never been a better time to start your training towards your Commercial Pilot Licence.

What an absolute and totally blatent lie....:mad:...How can they possibly justify putting utter ****e like this on their website? Completely and utterly misleading....:mad::mad::mad:

[FokkerInYour12]

Sad fact is that nobody is making any money with these low rates.

$297 solo for a DA40 is probably underpriced too.

[htran]

TAC are a company which means it is their ultimate goal to make money for their shareholders and surely they must be making money off $297 per hour DA40 otherwise they would be out if business.

I agree that RACWA should be run by members for the benefit of members and should call for volunteers rather than having expensive management staff, I would like to see the club act like a non for profit organisation and aim to deliver a benefit to members rather than pursue commercial activities to make money.

I would like to see the instructors paid more, like some one said before instructor rates increased by over 25% but the instructor pay rises were more like 4%.

I also agree that the club do more fundraising activities and flying for fun activities.

I think way too much resources goes towards WAAC and whilst that makes $$$ it's not about making money it's about member benefits. I would rather see the club have 4 new planes that members want to and enjoy to fly rather than 20 old planes that are used primarily for makin money.

[FokkerInYour12]

Such pricing doesn't include any allowance for major/early/unexpected overhaults/repairs.

eg. Why do you see so many aircraft for sale with engines at or near TBO, or sitting without an engine either inside the hangar or parked outside them.

It's because the don't have the cash reserves and cashflow to finance them. Why? Because, in general, the chargeout rates are too cheap.

So let's increase rates, increase instructors' pay (so you get career instructors not hour builders).

And RACWA can get back to its roots and become a club not a company.

[htran]

Couldn't agree more regarding your last point

[Private Patjarr]

It all started many years ago ..... Let's build a new clubhouse!

Good grief.

[walesregent]

It all started many years ago ..... Let's build a new clubhouse!

Good grief.

...guess you gotta make the most of your real estate. In fact if all of the figures regarding the cost of maintaining an aircraft fleet quoted here are true, they are probably better off concentrating on getting weddings and 21st's in their function centre than on flying ops.

[MooneyManiac]

If you all want to go back to it being simply an Aero Club, then it'll end up with 3 instructors and 4 or 5 aeroplanes.
When is AirSic going to get it through his or her thick skull that training is the only thing that really supports income to any aero club. AirSic seems to completely ignore that the GFC affected EVERY flying organisation across the county with some not even surviving.
Why aren't members flying? Why are club competition days so poorly supported - and don't blow sunshine up my arse by telling me that if there were better aeroplanes that'd fix the problem. Bull****!
Were that the case, The Aeroplane Company with 4 Diamonds and glass cockpits would be overun with panting pilots wanting to fly their aeroplanes - and they're not.
If you feel so strongly about it, nominate for Committee and DO something about it instead of sitting on the sidelines and sniping at people who are actually DOING something.
But I guess that'd mean you'd have to take some responsibility and make decisions and that would seem way beyond you.

[lethalw]

Since you seem to be so 'in-the-loop' , then maybe you can inform us of what the committee ARE doing about the situation.....? The thread so far seems to indicate that people are generally unsure of what direction the club is taking.....

[YPJT]

AirSic seems to completely ignore that the GFC affected EVERY flying organisation across the county with some not even surviving.
Rather a bold statement to make. I know of several organisations both charter and training that saw no downturn whatsoever.

[Clare Prop]

To add to what YPJT said, I understand there have been a LOT of disgruntled students leaving RACWA in the last couple of years, especially since the aquisition of WAAC; this has kept some of the other schools very busy and not seeing any effects of the so-called GFC.

[QFF]

RACWA - I was there, Sunday arvo, expecting the place to be chockers - it was deserted, apart from the bar staff.

Where are all the members?

Certainly not flying, judging by the rows of parked aircraft.

Club, it ain't....

[David75]

RACWA - I was there, Sunday arvo, expecting the place to be chockers - it was deserted, apart from the bar staff.



Probably taking note of all the DAMP material they get sent...Sat night was the wings dinner.

[AirSic]

MooneyManiac.......

Which committee member are you? (rhetorical)

How precious...I suggest your comments have given you away as a committee member (one who has their head in the sand like the proverbial ostrich) or at least very close to the committee.

I have been at RACWA, in the foyer, being told by other members that "you can get better service and a/c down the road". They do!

Down the road...you can get people to return phone calls promptly.

Down the road...you can arrange for Night Flying without being told "we are not allowed to night fly because it is not a good use of resources".

Down the road...you can enter a building, conduct a brief, fly a modern plane, pay for the SERVICE, and not get caught up in the shallow politics of someones wet dream of "we are a leading international training organisation", or "a large multi national company". You are not!

Down the road...you don't have to do a 3 hour navex for an AFR.

Down the road...you can talk to any instructor in relation to theory training and review of said theory. You can't at RACWA...try it and see what response you get. I am sick of hearing, we don't do theory, you will have to go to WAAC. What did the members buy? Some computer on-line training module system.

Down the road...The a/c may not always be available (because they are being used) but they are SERVICABLE when required.

Thats why members aren't flying. I completely agree with other PPruners here that organisations up and down the strip have done very well because of the debacle at RACWA. Most of the operators don't want RACWA to change as their business may suffer!

Maybe RACWA NEEDS to go back to 3-4 instructors and 3-4 a/c. Lets face it....that's where it is at now efficiency wise, only with massive overheads and debt.

Don't get angry at the members for not turning up to fly an aircraft for 15 minutes on a competition day.

Don't blame the GFC....that's a load of bull**** (to quote you) as demonstrated by many other organisations.

I would suggest - Get angry at yourself for allowing the problem to become so dire that conceivably the end is nigh for RACWA.

As for being on the committee....we tried to get rid of you before all this happened....you ambushed the meeting with your lawyer and nothing got achieved. JG, AH and PL should all be taken to task personally but we know that won't happen as you hide behind the Inc. side of the business.

How much was Murrayfield to buy? What are the repayments? More importantly what is the utilisation?
How much was WAAC to buy back? What are the repayments? How the hell a training organisation can agree to "not teach theory" in the first place astounds me and then have to buy back the right to.
Why enter into a 30 year lease with JAH if Murrayfield is the answer to everything and JAH are a bunch of thie^ing bastar^s charging everyone too much?
How many years and how many funded trips overseas to "look at other operations" and "qualify potential a/c replacements".....please, give us a break.

You can't keep trying to sell off very old 152's at twice their market price to pay for your mistakes! What are they up for now?....that's right $55k each.....tell 'im he's dreamin'.

Every time the "new aircraft" are held up...."here is the perfect opportunity to re-assess the purchase"....Wa%k Wa%k Wa%k

AH is gone and I suspect the sooner the current committee is gone, the better!

Of course at the end of the day....who really cares?!

AIRSIC - former RACWA member

[AirSic]

Sitting in an airline lounge overseas, I look up to see the latest edition (septemeber 2010) of Tarmac Topics being read by a well known member. I borrow his copy and comment as follows:

well it appears that the end is just around the corner.:{

JG's latest note to all is that despite his and the committees best efforts, everyone in OZ in GA has fallen victim to the GFC.:=

Ironically, his page in the magazine is titled "Future directions". JG outlines what he thinks is required as a "10 point GA rescue package" in conjunction with other associations as "GA position is so grim".:hmm:

Same edition re-comfirms that club captain Mick Harcourt is resigning, and he mentions that "a well done is required, club attendances at the monthly competitions both at Jandakot and Murrayfield have increased" :ok:

I have a lot of time for people like Mick and Trevor Jones (Manager of Club Flying) as well as Trent Robinson (manager flying Operations).

What I don't have a lot of time for is self serving, arrogant jerks who push their own agenda's at the expense of others.

There is an AGM announced to occur on September 29th 2010 at 7pm at RACWA offices.

It will be interesting to see the outcome of the meeting as the committee is required to stand down by constitutional requirement.

Could it be said that the words of JG in his article, are the beginning of his "way out"? Don't blame me! Blame the GFC / CASA / Members etc etc etc

Lets see RACWA get back to it's former glory and let the members benefit rather than suffer from what has been a very expensive and exhausting exercise for all........It may be worth re-joining - RACWA - The CLUB!:ok:

[FokkerInYour12]

I've heard around the Jandakot traps that August was an extremely slow month for all on the strip.

Perhaps the reality is that only 3 or 4 flying schools can survive anyway?

I'd sure prefer to learn during winter months than summer months. I still rememeber the first low level nav practice many years ago - 39 degrees OAT and humid to boot.

[Awol57]

I think movements for August were down about 20% from last year and about 17% for the whole year.

[SOPS]

As a very very long time member of thre RACWA, I can say that the rot set in as soon as they built the new building. All sense of "club" went and "money grabbing buissness" stareted.

Saturday nights at the old club..infact most nights used to be packed..with members and staff alike. But for some reason that new building changed everything.

[Engineer_aus]

Interesting to have been talking to a mate of mine who has said that there is a lot of advertising going on at the moment for the next bunch of hopefuls.

[FokkerInYour12]

It's getting towards the end of the school year... Advertising to attract high school graduates just seasonal

[Capn Bloggs]

SOPs
But for some reason that new building changed everything.
The drink-driving rules also had a lot to do with the decline in "social" activities.

[Joker 10]

The drink driving rules had little effect compared to the Impost on members the "commercial " training created.

Making the club into a " commercial" operation with amateur managers spelt the death knell, reality it is only a matter of time, sad but true !

[Arnold E]

Probably a combination of both situations.:sad::sad:

[SweetnLow]

Guys this is sad news. What can be done? I very much enjoy learning to fly and to me, the staff who remember your name, the instructors that take more time than they should, and the other people i've met while at the club, flying and non-flying folk, will all be impacted if the end is truly near. Surely the business as a whole cannot be that close to going under?

[Joker 10]

Yup, Tis surely terminal, amateurs pretending to be business people playing with stakeholders money ( the members) as if they are a forgotten people.

Members make a club, pretenders destroy all that goodwill.

Hard to replicate, concessions foregone, a management car crash.

Cheap building in the end for the next occupant.

Was really a dream castle, tore the real club apart.

[nottoospicy]

As a RACWA member since the early 90's, and later a CPL student there, last year I made the decision not to renew my membership. Quoted 5 hours flight time plus briefings just to achieve "RACWA currency" so that I could private-hire one of their aircraft. There are other operators at YPJT with a much more practical and personal approach ( and with more modern aircraft) and that's where my limited budget has to be directed. Also the insular nature around the club would have its members believe that all the competitors were sub-par in terms of safety and quality (training and aircraft), with RACWA the pinnacle of aviation training. This is simply not the case, and it's not until leaving the confines of the club that this becomes clear... As times get tighter for perople financially, I think there is a tendency for folks to do a bit more research on which school to choose. This has to be eroding their base..

[Green_pilot_79]

Racwa member here- have not flown with them for ~ 6 months as im ppl looking at going onto cpl with new a/c.

Had enough of all the bull**** and been waiting way way too long for new a/c and theres nothing. They dont care for members anymore its all about that cash cow for them. Look at members get the new a/c get ride of the 10 planes that sit there and dont get utilized.

Have done some reaserch and there are alot better options at other schools. Allthough the intructors I have had at racwa are great i fear that if nothing comes within the next month or 2 I will resume my training elsewhere :(

[LJones]

Already at that point ^^^

I think the it has more initial attraction to more people, being seen as a big company where people think bigger is better to start off with.
Then after a few month they see that, just like anyother big company, they are after more and more profit.

I wish i was able to make my choice again, due to the fact of the constant price rises, ive spent 50+ k in getting my CPL, not even there yet. Now im working two jobs to be able to keep the dream alive. Even then the light at the end of the tunnel is slowly burning out.

[Johnny_56]

Any news come out of the AGM??

I learnt to fly at RACWA 10 years ago, I don't think their fleet has changed much in that time (maybe got 10 years older)

When i was there it seemed like the best place on the strip to learn, big company, lots of aircraft parked out the front, all the bells and whistles. It even had a pub on top of it!!

Although I wouldn't want it fail completely I think it needs a drastic overhaul, clean out the dead wood and start again with a new plan. Too many stale ideas and delusions of grandeur around the place

[SOPS]

Yes you a correct mate in a way..but you and I grew up in that place, and your mum and dad were one of the "rocks" of the outfit. And the weekend nights that carried on to weekend mornings to a certain house on the river were part of history..but when that new building came, it was like the soul was removed..something changed. (Member for 36 years)

[sisemen]

Any updates? Whilst only a past member it would be a pity if it were to fold.

[Nirak]

:confused: Any updates ??

[Capn Bloggs]

It would seem that the "I know nothing about aviation" expert has left the place in a mess. :=

[Nil defects]

Yes the previous CEO and President have left the place reeling. Their incompetence has left a once healthy club with a huge debt.

We can only hope that the new CEO, President and committee can work together to work their way through it. The club in it's history has recovered before and hopefully it will again.

I for one, certainly have much more confidence in the new team. They are all long time members and have it's interest at heart. They, unlike their predescessors have aviation knowledge - so the club has to be better off than it has been for the last few disastrous years.

[FokkerInYour12]

Is it true that a special administrator was apointed recently?

[Nil defects]

No, not that I have heard.

[Nirak]

Although I wouldn't want it fail completely I think it needs a drastic overhaul, clean out the dead wood and start again with a new plan. Too many stale ideas and delusions of grandeur around the place

:ok:

[Ex FSO GRIFFO]

To ALL interested RAC Members - who will receive the 'Tarmac Topics' very very soon.....and interested 'other parties'....

IT AIN'T PRETTY.....

The news, that is.:{

Apparently 'previous management' left a LOT to be desired, and a host of 'external factors' outside the Club's control, including the GFC, the Aussie Dollar and its effect on the WAAC, resulting in lost sales etc. - have all taken their toll.:eek:
The issues are many and varied.:confused:

There is a level of debt which has to be 'satisfied' - A 'restructure' of finances / management etc. - and MEMBERS are ALL being asked basically, and with apologies to the late JFK.....

Not, what can my Club do for me, but, what can I do for MY CLUB?? :D

Cheers, and all the very best to all :ok::ok:

"Now is the time to come to the aid of the Party"........:D:D

[Clare Prop]

Putting all those eggs in the WAAC basket never seemed like a real good idea to me.

There's a reason others decided not to touch JAR training!

The first rule of running a business which is to have bums on seats or perish seems to have been forgotten....why would people sit on overpriced seats in a clapped out aeroplane when they can get better quality and value a couple of minutes away. The GFC barely scratched the surface here in WA so cannot explain the drop in numbers and relying on cash flow from overseas particularly in this industry is a Really Bad Idea.

The article reminds me of case studies we used to do at uni....! This one would have been easy.

Best of luck to the new President

[SOPS]

Those idiots that bought WAAC sahould be put in jail!!!!

[aerodude]

Taking a $650000 overdraft to pay creditors. Ouch!!! :eek: Its a pretty weak excuse blaming the GFC for their sticky situation. It has only been in the last couple of months that flying training has taken a downturn at Jandakot. Perhaps the bigger blame should be put on buying WAAC or should I say a few pieces of 2nd hand office furniture. :ugh: Good luck to the new president but I think trying to get RACWA back on the straight and level will be harder than trying to raise the Titanic.

[Ex FSO GRIFFO]

Congrats to 'AirSic' for the INITIAL post back in JULY 2010.

Well spotted !!!

But alas, not enough 'remedial action' taken in time by 'members generally' - against the ludicrous actions of 'those at the helm'....

As previously stated - It is a CLUB!!

So now would be a good time for 'Club Members' to take a more active interest in the future of Their Club.....

A good start might well be to support the efforts of the NEW Club Pres.

Cheers:ok::ok:

[AirSic]

The very first article in TARMAC TOPICS, November edition...

Letter from the New President....

"the previous management and committee have kept a lot from the members" THAT IS DIPLOMATIC FOR 'THEY LIED TO US ALL!'

Part of Murrayfield has been sold - didn't help the finances one bit!

Previously UNENCUMBERED lot of Murrayfield, NOW UNDER MORTGAGE as $650,000 Overdraft required - JUST TO PAY EXISTING CREDITORS!

Bank Loan, SURE TO BE DEFAULTED IF SITUATION DOESN'T CHANGE! Guess what? Unlikely to change this year.

"Debt must be paid by End of Year at latest" OOHHHHH Dear, thats 8 weeks away!

I reckon, the guys at the bank must have looked at this as an opportunity to ensure that the club goes belly up, knowing that Murrayfield will be Reposessed and are thinking - 'we could then buy our own airfield and at mortgagee repo rates!' (MY Sarcastic thoughts - I doubt the bank is that bright!)

AH, JG, PL....you all should be taken out to the middle of the airfield and done away with!!! At the very least you should personally be held accountable for the financial loss of what was once a viable club.

I challenge the 3 of you - attend the club and face the members - face the wrath of those that have given so much and will now watch the whole sordid affair come to a grinding halt!

Eye ball to eye ball, look at those people that you have deceived and lied to!

No wonder AH asked to be let go from his contract early and didn't want to hang around....he knew what was happening and how little time was left. The BSh1t about the banks wanting "personal guarantors" for new A/C, the BSh1t about WAAC being a vital and solid investment.....what a crock!

We attempted to tell you...you wouldn't listen.

We called an EGM, you rocked up with lawyers! and still wouldn't listen.

You shrugged anyone that was ever going to help you from the membership, with "that's not the way I like to do things" "I want each division of the company to run on its own merits and be profitable on its own or I will get rid of it".

Come back to the club the three of you so we can hang you by the small balls you have and use you as a windsock!

You should hang you heads in shame!!!!!

[poteroo]

In Denial or Just Don't Know?

Made an inquiry last week about what C172's they might be selling now, or when the new fleet arrives.

Told by the CEO that they were absolutely run off their feet with instructing and each and every aircraft was fuly committed to current flying activities.

Is this an accurate comment - or is he in denial?

happy days,

[SOPS]

:ugh:As Club member for over 30 years..I think I want to be sick...the last comittee MUST MUST be acountable for this, surely you can not pay out huge amounts, walk away, and say.."oh IM sorry"...but then again looking at Wall Street in the last few years maybe you can.

So then comes the next question..what was in it for the powers to be???....why did they destroy something..was another "agenda" in place????:ugh::ugh:

And as a last thought..it was meant to be a club...noy a fe##kig buisness, the people who changed this need to address the members and explain just what the hell as gone on......I am angry, very very angry.....

[Clare Prop]

Perhaps you can all blame the insurance companies, office bearers can insure against being personally liable for their errors.

So perhaps this means they can just saunter off while the staff and creditors are left with nothing. It happens in aviation businesses and clubs all over the world over and over again, hardly anything new.

[AirSic]

http://www.racwa.asn.au/getfile.aspx?Type=image&ID=4256&ObjectType=3&ObjectID=1206


If you can't download it from here, go to the Royal Aero Club website.

[kellykelpie]

This is awful. I hope they survive. Many a fond memory - I grew up at that club.:(

[Green_pilot_79]

Sell half of the old ****ty planes that sit there and dont get used. Pay off debt. Then re-finance new planes draw more people with state of the art aircraft/technology and start making money.

Simple equation to me. They have lost so many people with still running very old and outdated aircraft. I know of at least 5 people personally that have left for this reason.

The dollar is so high at the moment and its the perfect oppurtunity. But I know what will happen nothing will eventuate for 12 months then the dollar will drop right down and once again the oppurtunity will go.

[YPJT]

Green Pilot, selling underutilised aircraft is far easier said than done. Additionally putting the club into hock for six or even seven figure sums to buy some state of the art airframes is a very big gamble which would have not guarantee at all of paying off in the short to medium term. Not to mention the fact that the club's current financial position means it would have very little chance of financing those purchases.

The dollar might be high at the moment but it's all academic if you don't have any.

The new president has made a very corageous debut statement and we all wish him and his new committee well as they try and rescue RACWA from the mess it has become due to ineptness and arrogance of some previous office bearers.

[Johnny_56]

Their 152's must be worth only about $25-30000 each. They'd have to sell all of them to afford 1 new 172 (though could get a few second hand at the moment with the exchange rate!). By waiting so long to renew the fleet they are essentially left with nothing except their buildings and Murrayfield to bargain with.

Or is suppose they could pass the hat around to the members and hope someone chips in a million or two!

[YPJT]

The value of the buildings at Jandakot is dependant on how long the lease has to run on the land they sit on and the fact that renewal of land leases is no longer automatic as it was in the days of the FAC. :mad: If the airport was built around 47 years ago and the leases were usually 25 years...hmmm... can anyone clarify?
Look at what happened to Clamback and Hennessey in Bankstown when the lease expired on their hangar.
RACWA under the previous management distanced themselves from the Jandakot Airport Chamber of Commerce and their expertise in leasing matters. I hope the new President will reconsider this, as "divide and conquer" was a policy Jandakot tenants had to fight hard against four years ago.

[AirSic]

There is no sense in trying to obtain further finance for the provision of new aircraft....AT THIS STAGE.

The finances are in such a bad way that there would be no possible financier who would be interested in the acquisition of the new birds and quite frankly the club could not afford the equipment.

The sale of surplus assets is a necessary move, I believe. On any said day, there are a number of planes sitting on the ground doing nothing. Having said that...the members need to exercise due diligence in relation to the assets there now.

Last weekend, after a brief walk along the flight line, there were 2 aircraft that were left, i.e. no more flying for the day...1 with the l/hand door left open and the other with the flaps left down.

I guess some members don't give a hoot about the assets, however they are in the minority. In any case, RACWA needs to be more particular about the members and their attitudes.

There is a way forward, it is tough and sometimes tough love is required. Lets just hope that the current committee and CEO acting have what it takes to get this back on track and take the tough decisions to liquidate assets, with benefits to RACWA and fight another day.:ok:

[Slasher]

Just asking if that DH82 is still around? A check used to only
take a walkaround, forced landing and a spin (as well as the
log book currency check).

Havent flown it for yonks but just enquiring.

[Airey Belvoir]

Everyone should get behind the new President. He can't do it single-handedly you know.

[MikeTangoEcho]

^^ oooooooooooooh while I understand your humour, thats pretty low ^^

[Ex FSO GRIFFO]

Que..?? :confused:

[Case Sensitive]

The sooner that den of medicority closes its doors the better. It may have once been great but it (staff, students, leadership team(s)) continue to lead the race to the bottom when it comes to standards. Probably something to do with the incestious nature of the ppl, cpl, instructor rating, grade 3,2,1 cycle that is perpetuated at the RAC.
Instructors of any grade who have no experience beyond those red bricks are of almost no use to their students or the industry at large.

[Piltdown Man]

I used to be a member some time ago (1991) and I thought the place was a brilliant club. It's members flew, had social events ("Formal - from the waist up" a charity event I attended), drank in the bar, had fly-ins etc. It also had excellent and very professional instructors. It was an excellent club and even Pommies were felt welcome.

But even then, there was a certain element of commercial aviation which compromised the members interests. Basically, "for the benefit of the members," a few fully IFR twins were purchased for non-instructional duties, ostensibly for private hire. But only a few members got their hands on them. The few that did had to be in the "inner circle" or the club within the club because they were the senior instructors who were able to do the charter work - which had to be done to pay for the wretched things. There was virtually no benefit for the members in having these private hire/charter twins.

Then the level of commercial operations was so low that there was little associated liability. The problem with having a commercial arm within a club is that the members end up providing its capital, subsiding it or under-writing it's losses. Remember, a club is where the shareholders are the customers as well. Unfortunately, as the commercial operation expands, the members' liabilities also grow and if the management are not careful will threaten the very existence of the club. A classic example of this was with the club at Launceston. They bought a Grand Commander "for the members" but to pay for it, took on an early morning newspaper run. Not surprisingly there were penalties associated with non-preformance so when their aircraft went tech. they had to sub-charter, at a huge cost. Also, just to make sure the aircraft didn't get broken in club use, members weren't allowed to hire it. Some benefit!

So where am I going? Well it is vital for each club to remember why it is exists. It for the benefit of its members. It is only a business in so far as has to balance its books so that it can stay around to provide services for it's members. An aero club is not there to be a charter operator, search and rescue organisation or airline. By all means provide spare aircraft and maintenance to third parties, but make sure that when these activities are undertaken, the associated liabilities are well understood.

PM

[Green_pilot_79]

another one bites the dust

[Ex FSO GRIFFO]

Any further news ..??

Anyone..??:ok:

(Is 'no news' good news??)

[Ex FSO GRIFFO]

For 'Slasher'.......

YEP! The DH-82 is still available.:ok:

[Joker 10]

Today I recieved an Avdata bill for landing my personal aircraft at Murray Field supporting a club fly in to their own airfield and yes I am currently a member of RACWA.

No bloody wonder the place is in trouble, set up a club day at your own facility then charge private owners ( club members) to participate and support the club.

Easy answer is I will get the landing fee back by not renewing my members ship, I don't need this sort of stupidity in my life and other members are denied the fellowship that comes from participation at club events.

Good one RACWA.

[Capn Bloggs]

Joker, did you ever consider that that procedure was put in place by the crew that stuffed the club and who have now gone, or that it might have been a mistake?

Have you rung up AE or JD to ask for an explanation?

[Ex FSO GRIFFO]

HI 'Joker',

I'm with the Cap'n on this one.....

I'm sure you could also get your money back by pointing out the error and asking for it.....

Or, being an 'active and supporting member' you could call it a 'donation'
or whatever from an 'enthusiastic member'.
(tax deductible..??)

If you enjoyed your day, then it was no doubt, worth it....no??:ok:

Cheers

[FokkerInYour12]

Doesn't appear to be in error:
Royal Aero Club of Western Australia - Murrayfield Airport Details & Charges (http://www.racwa.asn.au/default.aspx?MenuID=97)

[htran]

Fokker those charges were quietly added without much communication to members, just like everytime that bump up the charges.

I've only been a member for 2 years, but I've seen at least 25% increase in aircraft hire rates and 50% increase in instructor fees.

I'm sorry but inflation is at 4% and the dollar is damn high! and during GFC oil was dirt cheap.

Whilst a commercial organisation has the right to amend prices without notice, RACWA is a CLUB, for the benefit of members, and not for making a return on investment for shareholders.

I was very pleased to read the new President's message in the last edition of tarmac.

But I have to ask, how the hell did the club get in so much bad financial shape?

Mid last year, I was told by my instructor that, C172 G1000 arriving soon, then the dates got pushed back, even in December I was told they should be arriving this month. And then all of the sudden its, we've gone on a junket to the US and we are getting Diamond 40s because some became available and we were able to jump the queue (yes they are nice, I did my DA40 conversion this year). And more yes they are ordered and when they are due, its sorry, we couldn't get the money. Now I doubt the DA40s are still available even if we had the money, in fact, its doesn't even seem like having money for DA40s is even an issue anymore, as it seems that we might not even have enough money to survive let alone buy new planes.

[Ex FSO GRIFFO]

Hi htran,

Re your 'But I have to ask, how the hell did the club get in so much bad financial shape?'

In hindsight, its no real mystery....now!!

Like thieves in the night - they came - and now they are gone...:=:=

You're 100% correct of course, in that it is a CLUB.
A CLUB exists for its members....

I do not know what part of THAT, the 'previous managers' did NOT understand. :yuk::yuk:

However, 'things is the way they is'.

Cheers. :ok:

[Rich-Fine-Green]

htran: I am not a member of RACWA and I am not privy to RACWA accounts.
However, the cost of running a GA business in Australia is out of control.

- The $AUD may be strong but the cost of Avgas and oil is still much the same!.
- wages for Instructors are higher. Office staff and maint. staff wages are higher.
- being a large business, I'm sure RACWA is subject to WA payroll tax and work cover.
- RACWA's old/high-time fleet would be very expensive to maintain.
- YPJT is not a cheap place to operate from.

Australia is fast becomming the 'Europe' of Asia with regard to the cost of living. Australia is an expensive place to live and to do business.
It won't be long before Australians are going to NZ for flight training much in the same way Europeans go to the USA for flight training.
Once forex is taken into account(A$1.00=NZ$1.29), some schools in NZ offer Instructors for $A35 per hour! (RACWA $100 per hour). An NZ CPL can be completed on a C150!.
Solution?. Sorry. Wish I had one...

[YPJT]

R-F-G flying was unrealistically cheap for too long hence all the ex-businesses; but if you don't have a competent manager then yes these things can get away from you for sure. Flying here is still good value compared to a lot of places. But RACWA's huge price hikes don't seem to have helped them much because people can't see a better product to go with them, just a huge bill for the same old same old..

Added to the costs you have mentioned climbing interest rates would be very painful for those with a big burden of bad debt. RACWA's level of debt would be fine...if they had say ten brand new training aircraft to show for it, although I would have thought the current fleet was amortised decades ago so where was the set-aside for fleet replacement? It's not like they would have been taxed on it like other businesses :*? 20-25% per year fleet replacement would be realistic to keep on top of things and within warranty.

[SOPS]

If they had spent the money on aircraft iso that stupid WAAC things might be different:yuk:

[Ex FSO GRIFFO]

Hi htran,


Re your -"RACWA is a CLUB, for the benefit of members, and not for making a return on investment for shareholders."

'Tis unconstitutional for RACWA to be 'making a return on investment for shareholders'....

LINK; Racwa Constitution (http://www.racwa.asn.au/default.aspx?MenuID=114)

Item 3 para (1) refers........

Cheers. :ok:

[FokkerInYour12]

Griffo,

First, there are no shareholders.
Secondly, income is synonymous with profit in an accounting sense.

Are you trying to say that activities of RACWA cannot be profitable?

PS - I have no interests in RACWA.

[Ex FSO GRIFFO]

Not at all Mr F,

1 - Yes. You are correct - there are no 'shareholders'.

I am responding to a suggestion of returning a profit to 'shareholders' - the
constitution does not allow for 'shareholders' as such, and further states that any profits shall be returned to all members equally - or words to the effect....

AS you probably already know......
What gave you the idea for the question you have asked/statement you have made..??

I gave you the link. Please do me the honour of reading the item before responding in such a way..!

Happy landings.

[Joker 10]

Yes I rang RACWA and got the CEO who pointed out to me that I was obliged to pay and that was that !!!!!

Did I "enjoy" the day, got a bloody big ding in an expensive propellor for my effort, provided entertainment for others, gave 4 hours time on ground for them, never again !

[Ex FSO GRIFFO]

Ah Well.....

Fortunately for the Club, Mr 'J' , he's no longer there.

And I fear the Club will be undergoing some 'dramatic' changes because of......

Cheers:ok:

[Capn Bloggs]

Joker, for your info:

Royal Aero Club of Western Australia - Murrayfield Airport Details & Charges (http://www.racwa.asn.au/default.aspx?MenuID=97)

You're complaining about $5?

[Joker 10]

My actual bill from Avdata is $51.49 a little more than $5.00

[QFF]

Perhaps Avdata are playing funny buggers - I got a bill for just over $80 for 3 RNAV to missed approaches at Rotto - never even got a whiff of the runway. Maybe they are claiming charging rights to airspace over the runway as well.

[Joker 10]

QFF my bill is right the scale is set by RACWA and adminstered by Avdata.

[FokkerInYour12]

So I guess you did not register for the discount at:
Royal Aero Club of Western Australia - Murrayfield Airport Details & Charges (http://www.racwa.asn.au/default.aspx?MenuID=97)

which takes you here:
Royal Aero Club of Western Australia - Member Landing Discount Scheme (http://www.racwa.asn.au/default.aspx?MenuID=98)

[topend3]

AvData would have approval from YRTI to also charge for the approaches whether you land or not...

[Swift6]

Qff - I had the same problem last year. Spoke to Avdata who put me forward to the rottnest island authority who directed me back to Avdata - love a good run around.

In the end I told Avdata to contact the island authority who's argument was that by conducting an approach you prevent another aircraft from landing. Pretty lame. They don't provide any service therefore they have no right to charge for a missed approach.
Long and the short of it the charges were waved. However they check the tapes and needed reminding each time a bill came with a landing chArge on it

[404 Titan]

Rottnest Island doesn’t have the legal authority last time I looked to charge for airspace usage under the Federal Act. They can charge for landings and take-offs but only Air Services Australia have the right to charge navigation charges in Australia.

[AirSic]

letter in the mail dated 19th November 2010......

EGM to be held 15th December at 7pm at the club.

$1m to be paid to bank by end of June.
Members fees to be increased...dramatically
"life time" membership ability with 1 off fee - NOT Life member status
Assets - planes to be sold off to reduce debt
Debentures to be issued to members wanting to take the punt
Periodic minimum spend to be tabled for members

ALL too late I fear:{

ONLY 1300 members left....most of whom I would suggest fall into either student category 16 yrs - 21 yrs or +55 yrs, hardly the age groups required for "risky" investments.

Time will tell...$1m is a big ask...and by June......ouch!

[Johnny_56]

Even if they manage to pay that (if), the club will definitely look completely different in 6 months/a years time (hopefully not an empty building).

What's happening with all the clubs destructors? I understand it's still operating as normally as possible at the moment but surely jobs will go if aircraft, and probably members, go?

[Capn Bloggs]

surely jobs will go if aircraft, and probably members, go?
Depends on utilisation.They might be able to flog off some of the silver and make the remaining aircraft work harder. Keep GC on his toes. What they need is cashflow, so unless people are sitting round doing nothing, it wouldn't make sense to start cutting/selling because that's just going to lower the income. Economics 101 by CB! :ok:

[SOPS]

Periodic spend..huge increas in membership fees..after 34 years of membership..it might be the end of the ride for me:(

[htran]

After seeing quite substantial price increases over the last 2 years at RACWA, and now the proposal to increase the membership rate from $170 to $250 and still flying old planes that were supposed to have been replaced, I'm not sure I'll be renewing. I don't see why a not for profit charges the same rate or higher rate as for profit companies, the only explanation mismanagement of costs.

I'm now considering joining Curtin Flying Club, at $88 pa membership fee, and a standard hire rate which is cheaper than RACWA's discounted rate its hard to convince myself that I'd be better off staying with RACWA. But the biggest point is that CFC's planes are about 20 years newer than RACWAs!!!!!

[SOPS]

And what is on offer for my $250?? Old aircraft at expensive prices and poor social facilites. That last lot has a LOT to answer for:mad::ugh:

[Lodown]

$250? No association with RACWA, but I wonder why $250 and not more. If they have a cashflow issue coming up, why not put a membership fee option of say $2500 on the table to include 10 (?) hours flying time subject to aircraft availability? Payment options of monthly, weekly or quarterly. It's like a gift card for those who can afford it. Most people will use the hours and more. Some won't. There are all sorts of training courses for non-profits seeking funds as well. Name the aircraft after the big donors. The worst they can do is business as usual. Then again, maybe it's evolution at work and aero clubs have had their time.

[YPJT]

Rearranging the deckchairs on the Titanic....not enough has been done over the years to maintain the loyalty of members; wind the clock back 20 years and it might have been possible to raise this kind of cash (though it wouldn't have been necessary then) but too many people have been mucked around in the last few years and realised the grass is greener elsewhere and all those things they told you you "had" to do and all that money you "had" to spend just weren't true...and tired of getting fed a line about new aircraft etc. Murrayfield could have been a goldmine if it had been managed right.

[Andy_RR]

Not a bad idea for them Lodown, to offer members to pay for flight hours in advance, rather than the debentures and higher members fees. They need more members, not less, so scaring them away with higher fees isn't the way forward. Those who walk away are not going to lose sleep over whether it succeeds or fails, but those who can be encouraged to stay will.

It's not going to prevent the need for some extreme belt-tightening, but it could be helpful in solving the immediate cashflow crisis and allowing the black cloudbase to lift a little. The management team really need to accelerate fund-raising type activities that bring the club members together, make it enjoyable and remind the membership what they originally joined for.

FWIW, I didn't renew my membership a couple of years ago since I wasn't in WA all that much when the bill came due and others were better value for money.

I wish them well - it would be a shame to see it fail.

A

[Monopole]

Not a bad idea for them Lodown, to offer members to pay for flight hours in advanceHappens at yacht clubs all over. You get billed x amount of dollars to be spent at the club in x amount of time otherwise the money is lost to the club. I cant see why it cant help here.

[CharlieLimaX-Ray]

Is JD still CFI?

[Green_pilot_79]

Thats the last draw for me.... asking me to pay more for ****ty old planes. Member for 4 years and to hell with such high costs for ****ty old planes. 250 a year for what ??? for loyalty ??? **** that pay less down the road for newer aircraft and no membership fee. hrmmm let me think.............Seriously even the new commitee have no frekn idea. Over and out for Racwa

[The Green Goblin]

Yep, the members have to pay to keep the WAAC operation functioning

The operation is a bit like a pyramid scheme. Without students paying to become instructors to teach more students to become instructors, it collapses. AKA current situation.

Focus on being a club, and the members will be back. Leave the commercial training to the companies that actually have commercial Pilots.

[Joker 10]

Reminds me of a number of other West Australian "pyramid Schemes" the scheme only works if gullible folk line up to be part of "something big" the real understanding investors are running away.

A debenture into RACWA would have to rank a a wild card investment into the total unknown, interest paid on the incoming funds from the next pack of mugs.

ASIC really need to watch this one quite closely.

[FokkerInYour12]

As was previously brought up in this thread:

The hire rates are too low. Any unscheduled maintenance that occurs will blow these costs out of the water (eg corrosion, cracking of engine mounts, fuel tank sealing issues etc.). Any of those things that occur make the variable cost of maintenance per flying hour jump from $30 per hour to $80+ per hour. In my experience of aircraft ownership this happens once every 4 years.

Such contingency needs to be built into the hire rate and a further allowance made towards engine/prop overhaul/repainting/reupholstering/upgrading equipment.

Nobody at JT has been able to do this since RACWA, being the dominant player, kept the rates down. So now pretty much everybody's business is failing not just RACWA.

It is NOT sustainable hiring out an aging single engine aircraft of almost any type for less than $200 per hour without instructor.

Only solutions for RACWA are:
Increase hire rates to sustainable levels (I'd say at least 35% increase)
Increase membership fee
Sell off aircraft that do not achieve 300 hours per year
Review in 6 months

More radical thinking:
Shut down/sell Jandakot and base at Murrayfield only, or vice versa. 2 Bases of operation mean significantly increased overheads
Sell all aircraft, cross-hire only

[Clare Prop]

Fokker have you seen their rates lately? Higher than many two seat trainers on the field that are less than five years old and still able to make a profit despite the finance and insurance costs that you get with a new aircraft, but which are largely offset by having warranty and no nasty maintenance surprises.

The rate should be set on fixed costs+variable costs+ replacement costs+ business fixed and variable costs+realistic return on capital. Not what the neighbours are charging less a bit. (and it's been a long time since RACWA were the dominant players or were keeping prices down!) The trick is to keep the fixed costs down, an eagle eye on the variables and enough liquidity to weather any storms.

Selling off capital assets and asking for money up front (liability on balance sheet) might give you some temporary cash but won't solve the problems in the long term, especially if that barely covers the interest payments on the bad debt. You can't raise finance without equity.

Many operators all over the world have gone bust...common thread...unrealistic expansion into volatile/mass overseas training markets, top heavy management and then the sure sign the end is nigh...asking for large deposits just to keep the cash flow going for a few more days. Seen it in the USA, UK, over East, history keeps on repeating itself. Angry disullusioned students (see unsecured creditors) coming to flying school and finding a padlock on the door and wondering where all their money went (see the person driving off into the distance in the expensive car?)

BTW Wondering how you have access to the financials of all the other operators at Jandakot? :confused:

[FokkerInYour12]

Clare,

I think you make my point. The other operators at JT are slow to increase their rates to healthy business sustainable levels. They will go out of business (and some have already). RACWA's rates forced this situation for years.

Re access to financials.
Don't believe me? Just walk around any JT flying school and see how many are sitting there with missing engines/props (ie awaiting overhaul). Plenty of places on COD accounts with Western Airmotive/Avial - no credit available. JAH knocking (or locking) doors to pay rent.

I still think these rates are below cost:
http://www.racwa.asn.au/getfile.aspx?Type=document&ID=4352&ObjectType=3&ObjectID=1219
(except instructor rates which appear to be rather high)

[Clare Prop]

Some, yes, but NOT all.

Sustainable pricing is something you can't calculate unless you have access to very detailed information which is surely confidential. And that has nothing to do with what RACWA or anyone else are charging because the successful operators have developed niche markets that others don't have and will have completely different costs.

What RACWA do and charge is largely irrelevant to others, they really aren't important in the big picture these days outside their own world.

You are very probably right about some of the operators, and I agree the evidence of mismanagement at some places is obvious, but NOT all operators are the same so to say "the other operators...will go out of business" is rather a sweeping statement!

[Capn Bloggs]

I think we should remember that RACWA has been recently screwed badly by incompetent management who have now done a runner. This is not a "normal" loss-making scenario for the members to be in. AE and his new team are trying extricate the club from the mess; we all need to make a decision to help out. Paying subs early to avoid the increase seems like a good start.

[David75]

AE and his new team are trying extricate the club from the mess; we all need to make a decision to help out. Paying subs early to avoid the increase seems like a good start.

Increasing the sub by a large % will only scare away new members. I think they need to generate some goodwill with this increase. For example increase the membership but include a 50% off trial flight voucher which can be given to a friend. Solves the immediate cash flow problems...

[triangulation]

VG, no you didn't. It's an overdraft facility and it needs to be paid down by Jun 2011. They only incurred a new mortgage on lot 11 - the other lots were already mortgaged for the existing debts (purchase of YMUL and WAAC).

[flyingtake2]

I havent flown for about 8/9 years and went for my first flight last week...with a school at the other end of jdkt. In 2011 I plan to get my ppl current again and do some further training.

I was a member of RACWA for many years and completed alot of my training up there. I certainly don't want to see the club fail, BUT I wont be supporting the club when I crank up flying again.

In my opinion they probably destroyed alot of goodwill over the years with many people, by adopting the sausage factory approach. Having experienced some training supplied over at Bankstown (again some years back), whilst always being thorough and safe, it was done with a mindset that money doesnt grow on trees and if you needed some extra time on the ground for briefings etc, then it was done....rather than in the air with a low time instructor chewing up your hard earned.

Perhaps the Aero Club got too big for its boots, there is no doubt that as any organisation grows it runs the risk of losing touch with what made it good in the first place. Whilst I havent thoroughly researched the current schools up the strip, RACWA have some hard yards to do, to gain credibility back.

This is coming from someone likely to invest $ 30+ grand for CPL et etc etc next year.

And my assessment and decisions are not based on PPRUNE posts....hard earned experience of mine and others that have been around a bit.

Certainly dont wish the place to come un-done...had many great times and moments there and met some great and passionate instructors and people there albeit many moons ago.

[SOPS]

Bloggs..just where the hell ARE the last lot??? They need to be found!!

[Old Fella]

Fokkerinyour12. If you think the rates are below cost have a look at Manning River Aero Club Inc rates. C152 Dual (Training) $210/hr for Club members $230 for non-members. PA-28 Archer II $260-$280/hr. Instructor rate if owner a/c $75/hr. www.mrac.org.au (http://www.mrac.org.au) for home page.

[Joker 10]

The "Club" is an incorporated body, it should be investigated by ASIC there is enough "missing" money to warrant a full investigation, mismanagement on this scale is generally considered a criminal matter.

The term fraud comes easily to mind. Eother fraudulent management practices, or fraudulent uttereances by successive board members.

All in all it is a disgrace that the members assets are now worthless and the "club" has to use prescriptive tactics to just survive the next 30 days, the creditors must be circling !!!! Who will pay the fuel bill, let alone cover the overdraft and meet the covenants on the mortgages.

What a mess !!!!!

[htran]

Fokker I don't agree with your opinion that "Only solutions for RACWA are:
Increase hire rates to sustainable levels (I'd say at least 35% increase)
Increase membership fee"

According to what the committee, it was the lack of hours that was the problem.

If you increase the hourly rate, it will result in reduction in demand, and make the problem worst.

Cut the fixed costs, cut the variable costs, make flying more affordable, and more people will fly. Reduced costs means higher contribution margins, more hours flown increases increased revenue. Increased revenue and reduced costs = high profits!

In relation to someone's opinion that costs should remain a confidential, I say bull$hit, this is a not for profit organisations, members have the right to know that information. Members have a right to expect to receive benefits for their membership, the club doesn't need to make a profit, it just needs to be sustainable.

Ideally, members should pay cost price for all services.

If for-profit companies can stay in business charging the same price or less than RACWA for better, newer planes, then the problem with RACWA is costs being too high.

[Capn Bloggs]

According to what the committee, it was the lack of hours that was the problem.
Part of the problem. The other part is the now-gone few hundred Gs that went into the WAAC lemon. You know, the part that was being trumpeted at the meeting last year?

[FokkerInYour12]

Breaking news: Another Jandakot operator has gone into administration (unable to pay bills).

Flying is not more affordable these days. Everybody's rates are too low. Making flying more affordable benefits pilots but at what cost? Two operators this year.

[The Green Goblin]

Which company?

[FokkerInYour12]

An external administrator has been appointed at The Aeroplane Company.
ASIC Free Company Name Search (http://www2.search.asic.gov.au/cgi-bin/gns030c?acn=079_859_402&juris=9&hdtext=ACN&srchsrc=1)

[The Green Goblin]

After the lockout, and the subsequent migration of the bread and butter next door, aka ECU, it was only a matter of time.

I wonder if they will litigate against JAH?

Such a shame really, there goes a Cathay Captains retirement plan.

[aerodude]

FokkerInYour12, you clearly have no idea what happens at jandakot. The only flying school that was on COD with Availl or Western Airmotive was the aeroplane company. The flying schools at Jandakot are MUCH better payers than about 90% of the charter companies out there.
Tell me what flying school (apart from the aeroplane company) has planes sitting around due to maintenance? Last time I looked they were all flying.
It is unfortunate what has happened to the aeroplane company. But it was a long time coming

[The Green Goblin]

There is a superstition in aviation, you never paint the hanger floor. (else you will go broke)

Guess who has a painted hanger floor!

[Clare Prop]

AS for the theory that if prices are too low you will go broke...RACWA and TAC are/were the most expensive on the strip.
Proves my point about margins. No point having a high price that scares away the punters if you have even higher costs.

GG there was talk of litigation at the time but I think the problem lay with being able to accurately asses the losses. There was also a not very well hidden agenda by some other parties who wanted that hangar. :mad:

[The Green Goblin]

Looks like they will get it then hey!

Pity, from memory TAC spent a bit of money upgrading the facilities from when I poked my head in that hanger last, (was it around 2005 it was upgraded?).

I wonder who the new tenants will be? perhaps RACWA can sell their lot and move into the TAC facilities :D

[ContactMeNow]

There is a superstition in aviation, you never paint the hanger floor. (else you will go broke)

Guess who has a painted hanger floor!

Last visit out to YPJT I noticed a few places has painted hanger floors;


RFDS - These guys don't count though do they?
PLA - never seen them so busy, several 402's running out each day
JFC - Painted several days after their latest accident, many aircraft parked up each day.RACWA tried to charge me to look at their hanger :E so I cannot comment.....

Didn't TAC just get a DA40 online not too long ago? Or was this a x-hire?

CMN :ok:

[Icarus2001]

Sub $200 is not a sustainable rate
The hire rates are too low
Logic would say that having a comfortable tax status should mean LOWEST rates at YPJT not HIGHEST
RACWA and TAC are/were the most expensive on the strip.


You guys are incredible. You are arguing the complete opposite of each other so clearly you cannot both be right.

Those who know their history will know that the club has had some hard times over the years but has pulled through. They will again.

[doobedoo]

TAC has (had) two DA-40's, not crosshired.

Sad to see what was once a great place to train go down in the way it has - it really used to have the best crew on the strip.

I feel for the employees that stuck it out until the end, I hope no-one is too far out of pocket this close to christmas.

[Rich-Fine-Green]

Re: TAC; Sad to see that the malise in east-coast G.A. - where the flying schools are dropping like flies, is spreading west as well.
Rather than a race to the bottom, all Flight Schools and Charter companies need to start charging realistic rates for aircraft and Instruction in order to meet costs and make a little profit.
It won't happen of course - until we eventually get to a point where there are just 2 or 3 operators at the bigger airports like YMMB, YSBK and YPJT. I understand YBAF is already at that point where attrition has reduced the number of schools there to 3 or 4 (correct me if i'm wrong).
Due to Australia being such an expensive country to operate a business, the eventual winner in the lower end of flying may be RAA due to lower costs for instructors, lower maintenance costs and almost no complicance costs (no incredible CASA fees!).

[aussiefan]

I wonder how many students go to the school that has the cheapest rates? When I was looking, I went for the school rep, spoke to instructors and students and then got onto price. I would happily pay another 20-40 more if that was the rate, especially if that meant the instuctors got a significant amount more.

If the school has good instructors, a good rep and reasonable aircraft then they should get students.

Unless people actually do look primarily on price??

[heated ice detector]

Why don't they resell the the computers that they bought from WAAC,
even with depreciation they should still be worth $750,000.

[ContactMeNow]

Sad to see that the malise in east-coast G.A. - where the flying schools are dropping like flies, is spreading west as well.
Rather than a race to the bottom, all Flight Schools and Charter companies need to start charging realistic rates for aircraft and Instruction in order to meet costs and make a little profit.

Yes and no. There are alot of operator's out thee that work on such fine margins just to stay in business, yet other competitors on the strip charge alot more, but are much busier. You get what you pay for, speaking mainly from charter, companies are more than happy to shell out the extra $$$ to get a higher level of service, nicer aircraft and a suitably qualified and competent charter pilot/instructor.

There are a few operators out there that charge the "going rate" yet they do not pass that revenue onto the pilots (or staff for the matter). One operator out at YPJT is well known for putting younger guys on difficult, heavy charters and the customer feedback isn’t the best (having also flown as a pax on these flights). When asked the pilot for their experience, the reply was alot less than the contracted minimum, plus they were more than happy to inform me that the boss made them pay for their endorsement and that they were not getting paid to do this flight, as it was training for them (training for the airlines that is). This guy doesn't work for free; he does "contract" himself out. This was originally at something that was close to the award, but then a new guy came in and said he will do it for $30/hr. The boss played these two young (20yr old) pilots off against each other - "Johnny said he can do it for $30/hr, so he will get all the work, unless you go cheaper"...think the current rate is $20/hr for flight (air switch only). No pay is given for briefings ("briefings do not make us money") nor are they paid to do admin duties. Admin duties are not considered as "duty time" so you cannot log it, most of the guys are there 6-7 days a week and if they are lucky, they might do 2-5hrs a week of paid work...

I think you will find that the dodgy companies are the ones that not only don’t [pay the award, they take shortcuts with all aspects of their business, lacking the foresight that the money is running out and they will need to pay the bills somehow. The companies that do very well, in general pay the award (and some), have tidy, clean, well maintained aircraft with fantastic facilities.

Chalk and cheese really... Flight training has just become too expensive Australia wide, yet the ones that were busy enough to see the boom a few years ago should have put their money away for a rainy day. It is only going to get worse, before it gets better.

The most upsetting thing is there is not one regulator for all of this. CASA do the aviation compliance, fair work ombudsman does pay and workers rights (when they do speak up). ATO does tax stuff employee super etc. ACCC don’t really care about GA. If these companies actually spoke to each other when bank accounts were low, or numerous complaints from staff etc then alarm bells might go off and all agencies step in. Good chance if your cutting corners somewhere, your doing it elsewhere... Not saying this is what happened at TAC or RACWA for the matter just a general observationfile:///C:/Users/James/AppData/Local/Temp/msoclip1/01/clip_image001.gif

Maybe its time the government took control of all flight training centres. At least you will know the aircraft get maintained, the staff will get paid and all the rules and regs will be followed. Plus it can be not for profit, so it will be cheaper...But then again CASA couldn't find an aircraft at an airport. Or even work out how to put me on hold for the matter....:rolleyes:

[Ex FSO GRIFFO]

For those members who are interested and who do not receive their 'Tarmac Topics' in time....

Members 'Info Night' at Clubhouse 7pm Wed. 15th Dec.

:ok:

[Wiley Coyote]

Gentlemen pls check your sidearms at the Reception..........otherwise its gonna be a bloodbath :*

Wouldn't it be great if the out-going committtee were there and subject to a Q&A sesssion. Then again probably not, they didn't have a f:mad:in clue before !!!

[The Green Goblin]

Looks like they can't afford their IT guys, web site has been down for about a week now.

[Ex FSO GRIFFO]

Hi Mr 'Goblin',

I too noticed that.
So I found that by 'Googling' RACWA Jandakot, then selecting the second, third, or fourth option down, the site does come up OK.

However, I take your point....'Tempo Glitch'..??

Cheers:ok:

[jamliner]

Yep it appears the database is down, well according to the error message below anyway. I make that 'guess' based on the fact it is coming from 'data layer' and pConnectionString parameter, it probably contains a database connection string.

Exception Details: CMS.DataLayer.ObjectNotFoundException: Error in the application.

Source Error:An unhandled exception was generated during the execution of the current web request. Information regarding the origin and location of the exception can be identified using the exception stack trace below.
Stack Trace:

[ObjectNotFoundException: Error in the application.] CMS.DataLayer.ContentDB..ctor(String pConnectionString, Int32 pID, enVisibilityPermission pPermission) +228 RACWA.ucContentDisplay.SetupContent() +352 RACWA.ucContentDisplay.Page_Load(Object sender, EventArgs e) +7 System.Web.UI.Control.OnLoad(EventArgs e) +67 System.Web.UI.Control.LoadRecursive() +35 System.Web.UI.Control.LoadRecursive() +98 System.Web.UI.Control.LoadRecursive() +98 System.Web.UI.Page.ProcessRequestMain() +750


NB: <diagnosed by a computer geek come student pilot>

Perhaps I should offer to trade a site fix for a few lessons.... ;)

just kidding

[The Green Goblin]

One thing that is really bothering me about the title of this thread is the word FINALS

Do you call it downwinds? Bases? Crosswinds?

It's FINAL!!

[Joker 10]

How long to Administration and protetion for the incoming Directors ????

Then how long to prosecution of the outgoing tribe ???

[FokkerInYour12]

Just because somebody mismanages (even with the best of intentions) this doesn't mean prosecution. Unless we are living in China or Burma? I just see failed business decisions where hindsight has shown it to be wrong. Great thing about that hindsight - it never fails a CASA medical!

[Joker 10]

Depends on the scale of mis management and the intent of the managers at the time, I suspect the "glad handing" of the proposed purchase of new aircraft at the time the club was to all intents insolvent might give rise to the possibility of some reasoned ASIC action.

This is a situation where the assets of the members have been put in the hands of the urserers by the actions of a few who were incompetent.

S 183 of the Corporations Law might well get a run.

[FokkerInYour12]

I heard another Jandakot operator is paying its pilots $15/hr on contract.

[Wiley Coyote]

$15/hr - WOW, the instructors have themselves to blame, accepting employment terms like that. Do you get a crappy brown uniform with that as well ?

[Johnny_56]

Which operator?

Assuming its not RACWA, there are only a couple of other flying schools operating there now (not including CS & SFC). I can't believe that!

[ContactMeNow]

I heard another Jandakot operator is paying its pilots $15/hr on contract.

Sounds like there was another new guy that wanted "work"....see my previous post..

Cannot understand how this company is still in business..

Im sure the metro's will get them out of trouble...:E

[SOPS]

I really would like to put something here in perspective....almost 30 years ago..yes people 30 years ago I started at the RACWA as an Instructor UNDER an award ( for those who dont know what that means, it was a contract you were employed by)...I just checked the tax slip I still have and I earned 19000 dollars for the year..in 1979.

I am not making this up.. happy to send proof

If people are silly enough to work for $15 an hour in 2010..then this industy is really doomed..the race to the bottom has started and I think nearly finished:{

I mean look upwards a minute, one day, you might have a wife and kids to support..on 15 bucks an hour????

[Sunfish]

I have a mate working part time mowing lawns.....for $15 an hour.

[nottoospicy]

@sunfish: That doesn't sound right. Mowing lawns should get you at least 3 times that per hour. It is a sad fact that mowing lawns/working for bunnings/macdonalds pays better than the grade 3 instructors' wage at any jandakot operator.

[Wiley Coyote]

what do all you Gr 3's have to say about it ? If its true and you're only getting $15/h then its time to look elsewhere.for an employer who values his employees.

Otherwise you're all suckers and will never beat the family pizza !

[Jabiman]

The Australian minimum wage is $15 per hour:
Minimum wage lifted to $570 a week (http://www.smh.com.au/business/minimum-wage-lifted-to-570-a-week-20100603-x1by.html)

[YPJT]

It is a sad fact that mowing lawns/working for bunnings/macdonalds pays better than the grade 3 instructors' wage at any jandakot operator.
Err not quite sport but as you are new on the forums I'll cut you some slack whilst you go back and confirm your information.

[FokkerInYour12]

The operator paying $15 an hour to their pilots was a CONTRACT rate based on chargeable flying hours. No superannuation, holiday, sick leave, workers compensation etc. Not to mention the 80/20 rule issue.

If I answer the ATO question of Employee/Contractor here:
Employee/contractor decision tool (http://www.ato.gov.au/businesses/content.asp?doc=/content/00095062.htm)
it appears that the pilots should be Employees not contractors.

[YPJT]

it appears that the pilots should be Employees not contractors.
Exactly! But as more and more gulible CPLs, many of whom have already been right royally shafted go out looking for jobs, the practice is likely to continue :mad:

[Charlie Foxtrot India]

The employee/contractor debate has been well covered in many threads.
Bigdifference between having an ABN and bing a contractor! As mentioned it is a way for the EMPLOYER to dodge his obligations re. compo, public liability, super etc etc and the newbie accepting this makes them a party to this scam and no better than the employer in my view- the info is all out there on the internet - and certainly not in a position to grumble about it.

Using the most basic definition, ie that an independant contractor controls HOW he carries out his work, is negated by the requirements for supervision of a CFI and to comply with an ops manual.

Unfortunately the tax office don't give a hoot unless they are out of pocket by a substantial amount. So this practice will continue until these people have the guts to stand up to potential EMPLOYERS and say no, it's the award or nothing; until then they get the wage that they deserve.


On this thread we have had people who seem to have intimate knowledge of confidential financial information of flying schools. Now have experts who know exactly that every single grade three at Jandakot is on $15 per hour! :bored:

[The Green Goblin]

IMO the ones that dodge their obligations to their employees, also cut corners in other financial areas.

TAC paid their grade 3 employees as contractors (around 2004 anyway). Only once they became 'experienced' did they get put on the books as employees. I'm not sure about other places, but every company that has tried these tactics have fallen on their arse. I'm pretty sure RACWA did/does as well.

There is a legitimate organisation called ACS (Australian Contracting Solutions) where you can process your employees as contractors legally. I have yet to see this type of operation end up in the aviation circles however.

The good ones pay well, attract the right people, and the business generally prospers.

[Johnny_56]

A couple of years ago the casual rate for SE charter was 45 odd dollars per flying hour if it's worked out as the award suggests.

ANYWAY... back to how screwed RACWA are...

[YPJT]

The good ones pay well, attract the right people, and the business generally prospers. :D

Johnny_56, at least give the new committee a chance. They did go in with their eyes wide open and are under no illusions whatsoever about the problems they face.

[Johnny_56]

Sorry, I'm not saying they don't deserve a chance. Good luck to them... I'm just saying that they sound like they might need luck to get out of their predicament.

It sounds like they are in a bit of a vicious cycle now -Big debt from WAAC and whatever - no students for WAAC possibly because of HECS/ECU - unable to pay big debt - need to raise membership/rates for aircraft to raise money - scare business away - still unable to pay debt.

As i said before it would be a shame to see RACWA fail, but the culture in the place needs to be changed. There has been a sense of entitlement in the place for ages, resting on the good reputation of the club which has now been sullied.

[lonewolf46]

Well I have certainly taken an interest in the comments regarding RACWA. For those that arent aware of it there are many changes taking place under the new committee which will get the club back to being a Club and a premeir flying school.
I fly there and yes some of the aircraft are old but they are well maintained and safe. In a decade of flying none of my passengers have said any bad things about the aircraft and have enjoyed the privilege of flight. The pricing is consistent with other schools and clubs along the strip, yes I do fly other aircraft at other schools. The title of the thread indicates RACWA is in for the fullstop after finals but there are many of us that beleive with the new committee and new attitudes being fostered it will be a "touch and Go" with a positive climb out!

[Ex FSO GRIFFO]

Yes Guys & Gals, there will be some changes, I am sure.

The best place to air your views / hear about the changes /progress or whatever, is at the 'INFO Meeting' tomorrow night, WED 15th Dec at 7pm at RACWA Clubhouse.

ONE THING I have heard - is that the Chippy, RWI will continue to be 'on line' at the club - so, if you wanna do your 'taildragger' endo....:cool: ;)

NOW would be good time to book in....;) ;)

Cheers:ok:

[Wiley Coyote]

Lonewolf - I suggest you are also very much alone in your views.

"the aircraft are old but they are well maintained and safe" - how many occassions of heavy landings, overspeed, over G'd, etc etc. A coat of paint and new interior doesn't make them safe. Many acircraft are over 30years old and I suspect riddled with fatigue issues and simply a liability everytime they take to the air. Your passengers are probably overwhelmed with the experience of flight, but they cant see what is under the paint, under the cowls and certianly dont know the age of the airframe.

Get real, if RACWA are to get off the ground again, they need a whole new approach. The new committee is from the dark ages and retired, they dont have the energy, the business skills and certianly don't have the vision required to drag a burning RACWA from the jaws of the administrator.

RACWA is on short finals!

[lonewolf46]

Hey Wiley I would probably check the CASA regulations regarding maintenance as well as the Service directives by the various aircraft manufacturers before suggesting RACWAs maintenance consists of a lick of paint and a squirt of armoural. I have seen new engines fitted and new wings fitted to various aircraft.

I am disappointed to see your comments regarding the new committee as you clearly havent taken the time to even research who is on the board or their qualifications.

[SweetnLow]

wylie cyote, I don't think the wolf is as alone as you suggest. RACWA's aircraft might be an aged fleet, but they sustain no more hard landings, incorrect flight parameters, or harsh student treatment as other flight schools - we are all human and learning to fly an aircraft! If they maintain their fleet then i've no problems learning to fly in older aircraft. The quality of the instruction is what counts, no?

Also, how about some positivity. The situation is dire and should never have been allowed to develop, however it did. But there's a new committee and president (who by the way doesn't look old enough to retire) and perhaps if you feel you can add value, why don't you?

[Ex FSO GRIFFO]

Gee 'Wiley'........

There are many many aircraft more than 30 yrs old STILL aviating VERY SAFELY!!

Plenty of 'old' DC-3's etc etc still around to tell the tale...:D

I used to fly a certain 210 that is over 35 yrs old, and it is STILL going strong 'up North', and earning its owner an 'honest income'.
It has been maintained according to schedule, and is in very good nick!! :cool:

A new paint job would certainly make it LOOK better - but it would still be the same, safe, well maintained 210.....:ok:

Cheers:=

[Wiley Coyote]

Loney - RACWA's maintenance is appears sound and no probs there, but these aircraft are old and getting flogged around the circuit. New engines sure, new props gear and fittings. But the basic airframe is still old and carried out 000's and '000s of landings.

Sweetnlow - love the name ! Quality instruction is paramaount in the formative years of any training. So why do most new students get given to the junior Gr 3's. So you wanna talk quality, gonna be a short conversation. What about standardisation ? Again a short conversation, its almost non-existant. I for one realised this early in my training and now fly elsewhere.

An organisation like RACWA........ someone once said a centre of excellence.....blah !

[dreamer84]

Apologies for slight thread drift,

Just wondering the latest on the TAC situation? I completed my CPL there a year ago so quite keen to find out more, though I've since moved states. Is TAC no more, and selling off assets?

In all my time there I was never entirely satisfied with the deal I was getting, though each time I thought about moving on I was kept by the promise of new aircraft (DA20/40) and in my opinion, the lack of other decent schools to my taste. Frustrating experiences with endless cancelled lessons due U/S aircraft and admin cock-ups, though looking back I had a couple of really decent instructors that saved me from chucking it in.

Will be sad to see it go, if it does. With a bit of a shake-up it could've been really decent. Thoughts with all the guys there. Anyone in the market for a couple of clapped out Mooney's?

[Ex FSO GRIFFO]

'Dreamer',

W.E.F. Thursday 2nd Dec. 2010, TAC is in the hands of the Administrators - so the notice stuck on the doors says......

Cheers

[Ex FSO GRIFFO]

Hey Mr Poteroo

- ch yr pm's re yr earlier post....

Cheers :ok:

[ballistix71]

WC not sure where you fly now but most training companies have older aircraft. Even new aircraft has 000's and 000's of landings under their belts if they are used for training. Part of the job one would say.

As for quality instruction and you complaints about the grade 3 instructors. Its been a while since I was there, but don't students do check flights with more senior instructors every few hours? If nobody flew with the junior instructors they wouldn't get the abinitio hours required to progress their qualifications along and guess what...New students would eventually have nobody to teach them as the experienced instructors would have retired.

Not to mention that your comments neglect an instructors teaching ability. I have seen grade 3 instructors who achieved far better progress from their students then even some experienced instructors because they are good at teaching.

To put it bluntly if you don't like a place or it doesn't suit you then you move on. The same was said about instructor / student relationships when I worked down that way. To say one is better than another for an individual is like asking how long is a piece of string.

It would be sad to see the choice taken away from new pilots and increase the rate at which we seem to be issuing less and less people licences.

[AirSic]

Meeting tonight.......

New Committee, Same OLD Story (we are trying hard, we are there for members), worst of all - SAME CULTURE!!!!!

Members to now pay a very small increase in a very cheap membership.

Members can now pay a "lifetime membership" of just $2500 - this was explained as nothing more than a desperate grab at money - treasurers words - they need $$$$$ now and don't want prop time $$$$!!!!!!

Even worse....same culture as previous committee.....members should not ask questions AND should shut up and let the meeting proceed...due to time constraints and technical points of order.

Assets being sold off.



.....Round out and focus at the end of the runway....ur line! PUFF - where did it go!:{

[SOPS]

I wish I was there..the end may be close

[Joker 10]

When there is no change in organisational culture in a close to the wire company inevitably change is forced on them by the "shock" of an administrator being appointed, denial only extends the interim and digs a deeper hole for the Directors no matter how passionate they might be individually.

[Wiley Coyote]

blaalistix - you gotta be kidding. Look at schools around and a little further than the end of your nose and you may surprise yourself with what others have and fly.

Students don't do check rides with senior instructors not until they have reached a phase completion, say solo, area solo, gfpt etc. In the interim, a spotty faced 18yr instructor could and typically has been wasting your time, had no teaching experience, turned up late and on a regular basis, changed you to another instructor without consulation. All this beofre we even took to the skies.

How many students have had over 5 instructors for their pre-gfpt phase ??? I was one and I for one walked.

You suggest Gr 3 getting more out of more senior instructors. Sure, so where did the talent go ?

"To say one is better than another for an individual is like asking how long is a piece of string." But we are all different and if one teaching method does not work, does the instructor simply carry on regardless, or does he change his approach and instruction. Most Jr Gr 3's dont have the maturity and the work experience to recognise this. Most jn Gr 3 would simply palm it off as a slow student, when infact the opposite is true.

However, for all you other Gr 3's who have your sh*t in a pile - well done and i wish you all the best.

[Wiley Coyote]

Wise words from Joker10.

Lonewolf -you were saying something abou the wise men who had stepped in as the incoming committee having some sort of impact. Apologies, they have, they have shattered all hope of any rescue. They have insulted the membership by asking for an individual fee to help bail out a multi-million dollar operation. They have buried the club, and i suspect the banks who have rejected to loan them anymore.

So now they expect mums & Dads to bail them out for a $2500 lifetime membership to the club. Blah to you, blah to the club, blah to the outgoing committee and blah to the incoming committee.

"We want $$ nto props turning" - WTF is that ???:ugh:
Gotta go to work but gents, pls do keep me informed when you pull your heads out your ass.

[Sunfish]

"Lifetime membership" is a desperation move, since no further funds will be forthcoming from the lifetime members.

[SweetnLow]

WC you sound as though your student experience was far from expectation, which is a shame as it sounds like you're a passionate pilot. At some point in time though, you need to take some responsibility for how your training progessed - if you had had 5 instructors before GFPT then why didn't you speak up? Why did you not seek to address it? I don't know what line of employment you're in, but in the business world, if something isn't working you take steps to address it. How long would you hang on to something that is unsuccesssful? Clearly you walked away, but had you spoken up sooner perhaps the issues could have been resolved and your training may have taken on a different trajectory. You then wouldn't feel bitter and twisted about that phase of your training.

Innuendo and rumour surround the both the Club and the committee (and as members don't have access to the balance sheet it will always just be rumour), only time will tell if they seek to address the issues with wholehearted gusto. Perhaps grumpy members (and past members) are only hearing what they want to hear - and can't get out of their own negative mindset. Nothing will change unless people change it! That includes, members, staff, management and committee:)

[Ex FSO GRIFFO]

Hi 'Sunfish',

Yeah.... I was not impressed by that 'offer' either.

General discussion;

It was an 'insult' to those 'Life Members' who have been awarded the HONOUR of the privelege for 'Deeds Done'.......IMHO!!

I would suggest that what should have been offerred was a '10 year term membership' for those who would like to partake of it.

The attraction of this would be that you are then fully paid up for the next 10 years - regardless of any fee increases in that time.
That should have been sufficient 'incentive' for those faithfull members who can afford same.

The figure quoted was that if 110 members took up this 'cash injection' offer then this would help somewhat in the short term......
However, I fail to see how - really - 110 members at $2,500 ea = $275,000.

In the 'scheme' of things - that ain't much at all. And, as Sunny has pointed out, that's NIL further income from those members from fees - for life!
(Theirs - or that of the Club - is the 'debateable' point I would imagine...)
Perhaps the $275K figure was for a specific purpose.

There are and have been numerous 'suggestions' put forward to the executive - but some of those are too big a 'paradigm shift' and I would suggest that they are just not being fully comprehended by those who are really in a 'state of shock' at the present.
They are certainly 'under the pump'.....

There are some 'options' and 'further discussions' occurring, and I would further venture that it might have beeen a lot better for the Club to have postponed last night's members meeting - pending a couple of 'more involved' discussions with interested parties who have done this sort of thing before for other clubs / organisations, and then they MAY have had something 'concrete' to put to the members for their consideration....

There is much 'discussion' to be had ref. Murray Field - said to be 'The Jewel In the Crown' of RACWA.
One can only hope that the 'correct decisions' are made here - it would certainly be a shame to see it 'wasted'.

However, what has occurred / been said, HAS occurred / been said, and now only time will tell what fruitful decisions will be made.

The Club is sick....and needs help.....Long Live The Club!

Cheers:ok:

[The Green Goblin]

I sure as **** don't want to see them sell off Murrayfield.

The aerodrome was acquired and registered to prevent those twats at JAH seeking to move the Jandakot aerodrome to Mandurah.

The story goes that you can't build another aerodrome within coeee of a registered aerodrome and the site that was proposed by JAH would have conflicted with Murrayfield.

I suppose JAH will buy Murrayfield, flog off Jandakot and the rest is history. You lot better get behind RACWA in the west (or register Serpentine), else that is exactly what will happen!

[Sunfish]

One way out is debentures.

Debentures requiring regular quarterly payments, etc. To a fixed value.

You then flog the debenture agreements to the bank in return for your loan.

...Financed a ski club that way, you needed to own a debenture to have booking rights.

[ballistix71]

WC apart from being a jaded student pilot about his training at RACWA and someone willing to throw insults at those work in the industry, is any of what you said to me constructive to the topic?

In response to you remarks, I do indeed look further than the end of my own nose at companies around the country and overseas. In fact one of the companies on the JT strip is in receivership and they used new aircraft so that can't be the answer.

If you weren't happy at RACWA then sure change schools as I alluded to previously 'horses for courses'. Not taking into account your experience at RACWA but you appear to think you can't learn from a young instructor from you remarks. But a 45 year old grade 3 doesn't mean they'll be any different from a 18 year old one mate. Turning up late for work is a work ethics issue not an instructional one.

Getting back to the RACWA topic, competition in flight instruction is good for the industry and the student pocket. Bagging a company and hoping they go under isn't any help to anyone unless they are unsafe. I'm sure I could find just as many bad stories about the company you fly with now. In fact having worked at a number of companies I've heard every single one bagging out the others. When instructing it was company x's circuits are way too big or their standards are rubbish, then you work for company x and they say company y's are and so on.

The saddest thing about RACWA was that a previous CFI had identified the need for RACWA to split into a commercial training company and a club that owned 100% of the commerical company and used profits to offset club members flying. Should that have happened way back when then they may not have been in this pickle.

[lonewolf46]

I was at the meeting last night and the things the commitee suggested made quite a lot of sense. The fact that the membership that turned up to vote on the three motions voted unanamousely in the positive.

Comments about the same culture etc should not be beleived. As to questions being banned I didnt see that. If the people that are making negative comments about the meeting why didnt you stand up when motions for the next meeting were called for? If you were at the meeting and objected to the motions being voted on why didnt you stand up and say your piece when invited by the president?

Lets stop knocking the Club and being negative. If you dislike the club that much stay away from it. It is time for all members to pull together and get behind the committee and get those Propellors turning.

[Ex FSO GRIFFO]

Mr L, It wasn't motions for the NEXT meeting that were required - It was a discussion on the CURRENT financial situation at THAT meeting that was required.
You heard the accountant speak - we need money and we need it now - as published by the Pres. in the last 2 editions of Tarmac Topics.

And, we need to increase the flying hours per aircraft - and to do that we need to sell off some of the 42 aircraft on the books.
An aircraft that doesn't fly is a ROCK!
It should be painted white - in true Service tradition...:hmm:
42 aircraft the man said!! When do they all fly??

For such an important meeting, where a lot of action is going to be required at 'very short' notice, being pedantic about 'minutes of last meeting' and protocol of this meeting, did not help one iota!

To stifle 'other discussions' from members and attend to the items on this agenda only, e.g. the three motions which were voted on in the affirmative, including that of the 'Life Membership' proposal, is a very good indication as to how the Club is currently operating - and as to why it is in the position that it is.

I stand by my comments re the 'Life Membership' as above.
A 'Life Membership' is an HONOUR and a PRIVELEGE EARNED - not bought!
10 years 'up front' would have been enough to get 'the faithfull' to subscribe...IMO.

Regardless of the decisions of that meeting, there are others who have the Club's best interests in mind who will simply have to meet with the executive for 'free and meaningful' discussions sans any 'restraints', and assist where they can.

I leave these thoughts to you....:ok:

p.s. what thoughts do you have to assist...??:ok:

[Ex FSO GRIFFO]

Hi 'Sunny'
Debentures were mentioned and are / were being discussed I am led to believe.:ok::ok:

[Wiley Coyote]

Sweetnlo - Numerous times I expressed my concern about being shuffled across numerous instructors.. The instructors had little interest, the admin staff didn't really take any interest or were not really sure why it was a problem and on two occassions the CFI didn't return my calls.

THE PROBLEM IS SYSTEMIC.

And so i choose to use my limited business prowess, offer my time and any asisstance i can to those who are receptive and open minded.

Glad to hear things went well for the committee last night.....but somewhat concerned that some discussion may have ben stifled, that the life members now have a relatively small price tag on their honour.

I suspect a good number of people of this thread should seriously think of putting their hand up for the next committee election, coz there are some very sharp and focused people expressing some very salient and suitable points.

Fingers crossed !

[Icarus2001]

The aerodrome was acquired and registered to prevent those twats at JAH seeking to move the Jandakot aerodrome to Mandurah.

This is completely wrong.

[Charlie Foxtrot India]

RACWA was operating Murrayfield way back when the FAC were running Jandakot.
JAH do not own Jandakot and can't sell off the land to anyone.

[The Green Goblin]

This came from the horses mouth back in 2004. If you remember, Murrayfield was not a registered aerodrome prior to this. With the proposals to close Jandakot and RACWA knowing the majority of their members were Perth northern suburbs based, it was a critical move to block the proposal of moving Jandakot to Mandurah.

It seems it worked, as we have not heard much about closing the place since then!

[YPJT]

Not sure which horse you were talking to! I do hope RACWA weren't taking the credit for the fact that the airport remains at the Jandakot site! That would be a bit rich! :=

Besides, Murrayfield wasn't registered until 2008!!!

[Ex FSO GRIFFO]

There are others who can explain the intricacies of JAH / JT much better than I. Suffice it to say that JAH has NO AUTHORITY to 'sell off JT as an 'entity'.

It is, and remains an AIRPORT, owned by the Commonwealth, and leased out by the Commonwealth to JAH to operate - as an airport.

The sub-leasing of the surrounding real estate is just that - a sub-leasing.

Soon it will be an airport in the middle of an industrial estate - but an airport never-the-less, and still owned by the Commonwealth.

Thanks 'CFI', et al, sometimes its like swatting flies......

Cheers:ok:

[Ex FSO GRIFFO]

Hi Mr 'Lonewolf46',
Received yr PM tks.
Am having trouble with my'PM' box at the mo.
Can you pls ring me
0418 956 747
Ta.:ok:

[Joker 10]

Murray Field will ultimately become an Albatros around their neck, Costs will kill them.

JAH is absolutely supportive of RACWA and their efforts to stave off the probable inevitable.

Reality is with no cash flow, a significant debt for an asset that has no intrinsic value and a balance sheet that looks like something the cat dragged in, it is only a matter of time befor judgement day comes, no matter individually how smart the committee ( Directors ) are the culture in the place is abonimable.

Arrogance has no place in business, let alone in a collaborative venture like a "club"

[Wiley Coyote]

Joker 10 - Well said, eveyone else, "shut up and listen" :D

[YPJT]

eveyone else, "shut up and listen"
Wow Wiley, been on the board for less than a month and behaving like a frustrated moderator already.:ugh:

[Joker 10]

Wiley might just be smarter than the rest of the syncophants, YPJT you and I may never agree on most things , but the real issue is one of the ICONS of Australian Aviation is on the brink of insolvency.

And with it if it goes is the whole Aero Club movement, once the seminal core of young pilot aspirations.

Personally I don't think it can survive the reckless behavior of the previous Directors, how they found the value in JAA training in Australia on the other side of the world is a mystery that is quite baffling and then to pay out mega dollars for something tht had as its only real asset IP that is common to every flying school in the world is a travesty.

20 times C150 doesn't stack up to a lot of dollars and whilst the building is quite special it sits on leased land with no real suitors, in other words who wants a smart looking building on the Southern edge of a lease hold with no prospect of secondary use or a viable income stream.

It will be cathartic as the drama unfolds, but probably necessary to re establish the possibility of saving the Aero Club movement.

[YPJT]

Joker10, not disputing your take on the situation. However I do find it somewhat ironic on one hand that you call those who express support for RACWa as sychophants and at the same time try to justify a patronising comment from Wiley blowing smoke up your arse.

[Charlie Foxtrot India]

Joker IMHO in the last few years the only thing that set RACWA aside from other large impersonal commercial operations was its tax status. The "club", (in terms of a friendly group of like minded people enjoying their flying and having a good laugh in the bar etc etc) side of it for most of us died in the mid nineties.

Perhaps in this day and age aero clubs and flying training should be kept separate? Perhaps having a bunch of people who weren't professional pilots trying to run a flying school was the whole problem?

As for JAA...well anyone could get the same qualification for about half the price and still do the bulk of the flying here in Australia if they went modular, so yes it was baffling and needed a certain kind of person to carry it off...and he timed his departure perfectly. Others including myself had looked at doing JAR training here and couldn't justify the enormous costs of approvals and audits, easier to be part of the modular training.

[Andy_RR]

how relevant is their tax status if they're bleeding cash through every orifice?


In other thoughts just in...

Perhaps it's time for Sandgropers to form another aero club, cash it up to the gills and just circle in wait for a wholesale bite at the carcass of RACWA.

[Joker 10]

YPJT, the syncophants I refer to are the body of folk who endorsed the purchase at mega dollars of a singularly low value "asset" that could be replicated at any other viable W.A. flying school at minmal cost.

Replication is a well practiced business tactic, the real test of an asset value is what barriers to replication exist, the the RACWA case very low barriers, they paid dearly for a ground school that really was not producing the revenue it should have and based on a syallbus that was and is available to any competent flying school who spends the time and effort to establish it self in accord with the JAA/EASA rules.

The "asset" is unsaleable so its carrying value on the balance sheet should be zero, no doubt the lenders to RACWA have woken up to this, and refinancing without significant guarantees in place will be difficult in a declining cash flow situation.

[YPJT]

YPJT, the syncophants I refer to are the body of folk who endorsed the purchase at mega dollars of a singularly low value "asset" that could be replicated at any other viable W.A. flying school at minmal cost.

:ok:

Many will say that the only real asset that came with the purchase was some crappy second hand furniture. Gotta hand it to the slick salesman that pulled that one off. :mad:

[Johnny_56]

I don't think you can blame the salesman! What's the legal term? Caveat Emptor, i think - Buyer be ware. It seems like, with the benefit of hindsight, everyone can see how little value the club got, was that not obvious at the time?

[AirSic]

according to the president, there are negotiations underway with parties interested in Murrayfield.....

according to CEO, those negotiations are CONVERSATIONS (a big difference) and there are 6 of them!

forget the sandgropers cashing up and circling etc...

there are others well ahead of the game I suspect.

[Ex FSO GRIFFO]

Just an an 'aside'.....

I do hear that the 'Chippy', RWI, is THE LAST "AERO CLUB CHIPPY IN AUS."

"Last of the breed 'in captivity".....how GOOD IS THAT!!! :D:D:D

Cheers :ok:

[Joker 10]

Anyone who is a half smart business person will wait until the Voluntary Administration starts then deal with the Administrators, Murray Field lost a lot of its appeal when the club flogged of the majority of the developable areas last year for $500,000.00 a bargain basement price then the bank jumped on the cleared funds.

The Due Diligence that was supposed to be done prior to the purchase of the ground schoo; cannot have been in any way thorough, it must have been a white wash, the previous Directors have a lot to answer for !! there remains a probability of legal liability individually and collectively depending on the state of the minutes of meetings.

[AirSic]

Joker..

As the title suggests...

A SMALL part of Murrayfield was sold earlier in the year.

It is a matter of public record that the portion sold WAS NOT DEVELOP land as it was quarantined by CALM due to the nature of vegetation located in that area. It was sold to WESTNET for their pressure relief valve in their gas pipe AS WELL as Green Credit.

The remainder of Murrayfield IS VERY MUCH ZONED AND READY FOR DEVELOPMENT!!!!!!

The question remains .....to whom and how much $$$.

The members will VERY QUICKLY have to get their heads around the fact that Murrayfield IS GOING.....GONE!

As the CEO said the other night....just what sort of leverage they can get remains to be seen. The land is costing them more than any benefit of keeping it.

Even air operations at Murrayfield from RACWA can not be justified. This was mentioned by the CEO on Wednesday. He is having difficulty justifying having a/c and staff down there.

The question is this......

Is RACWA a land developer or a flying club - institution?

[SOPS]

Who did the due dillagance in the first place?? Many of us at the time said that they were buying nothing, and perhaps buying stuff that was actually owned by the RACWAin the first place.

With reference to Murray Field..am I to understand that they are saying that it is not viable and needs to close regardless of if it is sold or not?:sad:

[AirSic]

SOPS,

I can only comment on what I ACTUALLY know...a little different to others on here...

The CEO, MK, said on the night,

"Murrayfield is very expensive to operate. We are not making enough money from it. I am also having troubles justifying keeping our aircraft and staff there"

My opinion is this -

the members are not supporting Murrayfield. The public are not supporting Murrayfield. There are not enough facilities to support the commercial realisation of activities at Murrayfield.

The CEO also said..."we have never conducted advertising properly" "there is a major campaign to be launched SOON and I can't comment on it at this time"

My opinion is this -

MK comes from an advertising and marketing background. IF he can get some funds together, and he weaves his magic, he MIGHT be able to get some activities underway O/Seas for WAAC. He MIGHT also get stuff happening here for Murrayfield.

I think that RACWA needs to divest themselves of the land, to the right people!!!!!!! They are not developers. Same as JAH should sell their rights to YPJT - they are developers, not airport managers!

JAH I would think are "watching this space" with RACWA. They would LOVE the ability to have the "TAJ-MA-HAL" - who wouldn't!?! They would also LOVE Murrayfield, I suspect!!!!


Does anyone know who the 6 little ducks in conversation are?

[SOPS]

Thanks AirSic, one further question..if Murray Field is sold, will it realise enough cash to pay off current debts?

I think the WAAC should be closed down and everything goes "in house" again.

Is the WAAC actually being used by anyone at the moment?

[Joker 10]

SOPS, I think the answer lies in the tried and true phrase, "price is what the market will bear" reality is Mandurah at present is in a real estate slump, over developed and price is really low, developers hurting badly.

So will a parcel of land outside the city and really only good for Industrial development command any premium, I think not, but happy to be proven wrong.

I ran the ruler over it and came to the conclusion that there is a whole lot of better land closer to the coast zoned more favourably.

RACWA is caught in a pickle, sell for low price, call in administrators or try to trade out of a soul destroying position.

[AeroAdz]

I started flying with RACWA about 12 years ago now. The sole reason I stayed was due to the ECU and Air Force Cadet links, letting me fly GST-free, with fuel paid for by the government, and the cadet instructors flying for free up till GFPT. Once most of those benefits ran out, it wasn't hard to justify moving elsewhere.

For a "club", it didn't really have a club atmosphere about it. You had to pay a membership fee to hire aircraft at a "discounted" rate which was equal to or more than what other people were charging. Instructors and aircraft would be chopped and changed on almost every single booking - you didn't get to know the instructors well, they all seemed to have different ideas on the rules and regulations and approaches to "professionalism". The fleet, while large and fairly well maintained is aging and with the exception of the vintage aircraft quite boring.

I looked around the strip, and settled on TAC. Competitive rates, a small organisation, good personable instructors, excellent aircraft (shiny new Diamonds and the kick-ass CAP-10B), no excessive over the top rules like RACWA seemed to have, and a good atmosphere. Sadly that organisation too was mismanaged, lost a heap of good staff and students, and after some major BS recently I pulled the pin and went back to RACWA. It was just in time to avoid TACs collapse, but now it sounds like RACWA are in just as much trouble - if not more so. It also seems like not much has changed since I left so many years ago.

If RACWA are going to survive and prosper, they're going to have to make some painful decisions - and thankfully some of the management there seem to be aware of this and are coming up with options. Unfortunately they are rather drastic - asking people for more money in the current economic situation is ridiculous because few people are going to have the money to spare.

Pumping up rates will only reduce demand and business, so its not the solution. If anything rates need to decrease, which means that costs are going to have to be cut. The college has already been pointed out as one target and is a fair call. Cutting the aircraft fleet is another wise decision on the cards. I don't think anyones proposed cutting staff or wages yet - no-one wants to be the a##hole who does it but realistically RACWA seem overstaffed and could do with some trimming.

RACWA, even though its a club, needs to be operated like a business. That statement may offend some people but the money and the scale of the business - a multimillion dollar operation - is way too large and there is too much at risk. RACWA has been in strife in the past because pilots and people without strong business credentials have been in positions of power and have made poor decisions. It doesn't need to make a huge profit and it doesn't need to conquer the world of flying training, but it still needs to follow the basic principles of business operation. Things like:
- Risk assessing major business decisions, using proper people and tools
- Extreme attention to customer service
- Developing, rewarding and retaining quality staff
- Seeking out new revenue streams
- Advertising and promoting your product effectively

RACWA needs to work on all of the above but its going to require radical changes, hard decisions, the support of its members, and a huge culture shift within the organisation.

[FokkerInYour12]

Unfortunately pumping up aircraft hire rates is required because they are currently operating under cost when you consider the total cost of aircraft (scheduled maintenance, including engine overhaul, plus the amount of unscheduled maintenance that is required on a 20+ year old aircraft). I find the people that complain "it is too expensive" have never ever been aircraft owners paying the currently hourly rates for engineers.

[zanthrus]

Let RACWA fail. Why throw good money after bad?

The damage has been done. It is too late to save it and it is not worth saving.

[YPJT]

I started flying with RACWA about 12 years ago now. The sole reason I stayed was due to the ECU and Air Force Cadet links, letting me fly GST-free, with fuel paid for by the government, and the cadet instructors flying for free up till GFPT. Once most of those benefits ran out, it wasn't hard to justify moving elsewhere.

After an opening statment like that you have the hide to tell the club what it is doing wrong? :mad: Words fail me.

[Worrals in the wilds]

A lot of clubs that also run commercial activities have the same problem. There are many surf life saving clubs, footy clubs, amateur theatre companies and the like that end up way out of their depth when they try to compete with commercial companies. The SFLC and footy types usually have an overriding association to guide them through stuff, but the others are generally on their own.

Most of them have a committee structure ingrained in their constitutions, and the challenge is getting the 'right' people onto the committee that have both the business skills and the organization's interests at heart. The trouble is that people like that are usually busy running their own business and don't have time to devote to another organization, particularly when there's no personal financial benefit, and often nothing but bucketloads of political crap and backstabbing as a thankyou from the membership after you spend far too much personal (and work :}) time working your arse off for the organization. That's just the honourable people, there are also the self servers and people with ulterior motives that regularly turn up on committees to push their own barrows.

Needless to say, this is a cynical view from long personal experience with a similar (although non-flying) company. I've followed this thread with a huge sense of deja vu. Good luck to you all, and remember that no matter how devoted you are to keeping a valued organization alive the bills will just keep coming and your creditors (and most of your customers) don't care that you're a club with worthy goals. They're just looking for either payment or a viable product to purchase. If your product doesn't compete on either price or quality, there's no way of convincing the punters otherwise. Loyalty is so 20th century :}.

In my experience, the best thing to do is find some honourable experienced small business operators that are willing to be on the committee and convince the members to listen to what they say. Be careful of government and big business people, because even if their hearts are in the right place they don't usually have a knack for operating within a small budget.

[Joker 10]

This is so true, RACWA is in reality a small business

In my experience, the best thing to do is find some honourable experienced small business operators that are willing to be on the committee and convince the members to listen to what they say. Be careful of government and big business people, because even if their hearts are in the right place they don't usually have a knack for operating within a small budget.

[AeroAdz]

After an opening statement like that you have the hide to tell the club what it is doing wrong? Words fail me.

Not entirely sure what you're getting at. I was giving a very brief introduction to my position and giving a basis for my opinions. I've flown with RACWA and other operators on the strip for various reasons, have done some study in business in higher education, and can critically compare my experiences at each to determine areas for improvement - not "what they are doing wrong", per se.

There is a limit to my knowledge, like I don't know what kind of margin there is on a private hire aircraft or what everyones salary is, so I can't give anything other than broad ideas. Maybe getting in business consultants or people with strong small business experience as suggested is the way to go.

[Iflyjad]

Hi all, I am new to this thread/forum and have been reading with interest the comments on RACWA. I have been a member for some 5 years and completed my PPL at RACWA.

Like many of you I have experienced the frustrations with club training/fleet etc and am particularly angry with the previous committee and CEO for the decisions (read indecision in many instances) undertaken and the mess they have created. But, I have also experienced the good side of the club. I have made many friends by involving myself in the various flying activities and have learn't much about flying through these activities and from the more experienced flyers and instructors.

I therefore don't want to see RACWA being wound up by Administrators which is a pretty simple call right now. I understand the financial situation the club is in and how difficult it will be to keep it as an ongoing concern but I think we should give the new committee and CEO a chance to work a plan and perhaps with a little luck and much hard work a new RACWA may emerge. I know through a number of discussions with them over the past few weeks that a number of initiatives are underway - some of which have already been hinted at in this forum and some that may radically change RACWA.

The best thing that we members can do right now is to continue to support the club over the next few months - if the Administrators are coming they will need to be called pretty soon or else the new committee will be exposed. Do some flying, get involved and bring your ideas to the committee. The club particularly needs the ideas and support of our younger members - we will know soon enough if we still have a RACWA.

Regards

[PLovett]

My comments here are only general as I have no idea of the specifics as they relate to RACWA. However, I have followed the thread with interest and can see some similarities with what has happened elsewhere.

Most aero clubs in Australia were formed before there was any legislation such as the Associations Incorporation Act in Tasmania under which most amateur social and sporting clubs are formed. This act gives the club the same protection as if it was a company but without all the formalities that are involved in the administration of a company.

Most aero clubs, especially the traditional ones, were formed as a company limited by guarantee. This means they are a company but that their liability is limited to the extent of the guarantee undertaken by the members and the profits from their trading cannot be distributed as income to any person. In other words, profit has to be re-invested back into the club.

One consequence of this is that while most aero club committee members think of themselves as being a committee member and are usually referred to like that but they are not. They are board members and have the same legal obligations and duties as say the directors of BHP Billiton. This misunderstanding has often led to problems.

Where a lot of aero clubs ran into trouble was that the structure of a company limited by guarantee did not sit well with commercial activities which required raising capital. To this end many clubs incorporated an associated proprietary company where profits could be distributed to shareholders. Now, where those shareholders were only the aero club members all was good but in many cases there were individual shareholders and this often caused the tail to wag the dog.

Certainly with the aero club where I am a member the forming of a separate trading company with the shareholders being the club and certain individuals sowed the seeds for a very bitter parting of the ways some years later.

For reasons which I am at a loss to understand aero clubs don't seem to be able to manage commercial activities very well (although I suspect greed on the part of some has a lot to do with it). Aviation as an industry is very hard on its players and in reality there are very few who can be seen as outstanding successes and the past is littered with the failures. Aero clubs can be successful but it takes a lot of hard work and rigid budget control, and, unfortunately in these days, the principles of commercial management have to be applied.

I wish the members of RACWA all the best for their future.

[MooneyManiac]

RACWA will not close, neither will it go bankrupt. It has an asset that is worth millions (10 of them last time I looked at the accounts) So to paraphrase Mark Twain "reports of RACWA's death are greatly exaggerated." RACWA was on final but has started the overshoot!

[Nirak]

Racwa, the flying club may survive, but what about WAAC, the college? :confused:

[MooneyManiac]

RACWA owns WAAC - ergo WAAC will survive and they will both prosper.:ok:

[Ex FSO GRIFFO]

Hi Mr MM,

Reur "It has an asset that is worth millions (10 of them last time I looked at the accounts)"

Are you saying that that is the value on 'An' asset - singular - vs assets - plural..??
:confused::confused:
:ok:
:ok:

[Joker 10]

Last I looked the carrying value of WAAC was a significant part of the club "assets" so one would question their true value in a curb side assessment which is where administrators go, the fire sale would value WAAC at zero I suspect.

[MooneyManiac]

Joker10 - it's clear you need a lesson or two in reading a balance sheet and that you didn't attend the special general meeting. Murrayfield is the asset I'm referring to. The CEO and the treasurer put it all on the presentation they did. The Club owes about 2.5 million dollars, and Murrayfield is worth way more than that. So if they sold it even in a fire sale it'd be worth well in excess of their total debt. If they were smart with the proceeds of the sale, they would indeed have a bright future - both RACWA and WAAC. Yes it's selling off the familty silver, but better they do it than the bank. Problem is that the current committee and ceo may be able to save it and get it on the straight and narrow, but as we've seen too often in the past, a change of committee can screw things up. If it happens again, they won't have an asset like Murrayfield to fall back on. Then they'll really be in the poo. It needs good management into the future if it's to have a future after it gets through this mess.

[Joker 10]

Murray Field at $2.5 million, I'd like to see that !!!!!!!

[FokkerInYour12]

So what is Murray Fields worth? Is the land rezoneable as something else?

[YPJT]

and will it be able to be sold off quick enough at the market rate to keep the wolves from the door?

[Joker 10]

The things against it having any real commercial value are:

# It is surrounded by residential development albiet large blocks occupied by folk who simply don't want it to be an airfield

# It has very restrictive zoning

# Really it is too far out of Mandurah/Halls Head to be cut up into residential blocks if it could be rezoned.

# Already it is surrounded by areas land banked by Perth developers with favourable zoning that would stifle its value.

# There are 2 significant resdential developments underway adjacent to the Freeway and North of Mandurah

# The property market in Mandurah is in a significant slump and has been for 12 months with no real end in sight.

Quick sale for a big unpopular unfavourably zoned piece of land at a premium price. I don't think so.

Happy to be proven wrong.

[Nirak]

Even if all the current debt can e cleared soon, the management will have to investigate the causes and put rules and plans in place to prevent the same from happening again. That will require a complete change in mindset and a determination to see it through. :confused:

[MooneyManiac]

Who said anything about residential? What about it's intrinsic value as an aerodrome? Wonder if JAH would be interested. I'll bet their licking their collective lips. Restrictive zoning? It's already clearly zoned as aviation.

[Joker 10]

Yup as I said restrictive zoning believe me JAH ( Ascot ) are not interested there plan doesn't include bailing out Aero Clubs.

Intrinsic problem , who really wants an airfield somewhat out of town surrounded by noise sensitive residents ????????????

Only way this asset can get any form of premium is if it can be re-zoned.

[Ex FSO GRIFFO]

I reckon we should be 'very afraid' if JAH were to get their 'greedy little paws'
on Murray Field....

Imagine the consequences.....

Then there would be nowhere 'affordable' to land / park your aircraft anywhere near Perth Metro area.....:{:{

Hello NTM.... :ok:

[sisemen]

Beat me to it - Northam is the place to be. Although do I want my flying disrupted????

[FokkerInYour12]

I would argue that Jandakot rates are highly uncompetitive (internationally) anyway.

I did a survey of parking ratess per month in the states and it varied from US$0 (typically with fuel purchase) to a maximum of $140 per month, with the median at around $75. Jandakot is around $170/month for a light aircraft bay.

Hangars... Median price of an enclosed hangar in the states is $250/month. Big cities (eg Chicago - Du Page) have hangars at around $450. This is still roughly half Jandakot rates.

No landing fees either!

[Ex FSO GRIFFO]

Hi Mr 'F',

My point - precisely.....

:ok: