Standard Phraseology for Weather Deviation

[crj705]

Can anyone give me a reference for the ICAO standard phraseology for requesting a weather deviation? I looked through Doc 4444 and found a standard phrase used during CPDLC, but not for R/T.

While I think all 3 get the job done, I am curious if any are technically "standard":

"Request deviation X miles R of track due to weather" or
"Request deviation X miles R of track due to CB" or
"Request weather deviation X miles R of track"

[clunckdriver]

Since when in Gods name do you "request" a deviation which if not done will take the bloody wings of? The hell with standard phraseolgy, it goes like this," ABC centre CG XXX WILL be diverting left/right so many degrees to avoid { Build Ups/ CBs /or UFOs} your choice of which way Montreal Center or whoever." "Go ahead" I fear that if and when they find the remains of a recent high profile crash they will find this was not done. Understand one thing VERY clearly, they are down there cause you are up there! It aint the other way around! I just cant belive what I read somedays, nothing personel, but you are the guy in the hot seat and you have a whole tube full of trusting folks behind you, better to irritate ATC than make the front page! In this neck of the woods they are called "Air Traffic Services", Get the picture?And by the way, Im still alive after 56 years as a pilot,which proves two things, you dont have to be smart to survive, just get the important stuff right.{PS, From "She who must be obeyed,} my wife is retired ATC, she read the post and stated VERY clearly "tell us what you need to do, and we will move the other blokes" as you may gather from the terms used she is from" Dununder"just to the right of Ozz.

[Vortex Issues]

Response from atc : ABC avoiding action, traffic 12o'clock, 3 miles, same level.

You're not the only aircraft in the sky and you won't be the only one wanting to avoid weather.

Ask ATC for the deviation ie "ABC request 20 degrees to the right to avoid". If there is nothing in the way it will be approved, if its a problem then we'll suggest something else.

[Chesty Morgan]

I believe you should tell ATC the actual heading you want to turn on to, although I couldn't tell you where to find it written down.

And surely you should be planning far enough ahead in case ATC can't approve your initial request that you have plenty of time to come up with another! Obviously if you are desperately short sighted and you need to deviate immediately then you should let ATC know what you're doing.

[esreverlluf]

Chesty - that is correct, however ONLY in a radar environment. If you are oceanic or otherwise non-radar identified, ATC are far more interested in how far from the airway you are planning to deviate.

[Checkboard]

Since when in Gods name do you "request" a deviation which if not done will take the bloody wings of? [sic]

If you leave your call that late that not getting an immediate deviation will "take the bloody wings off" - then, yes, I am surprised you have survived 56 years. :rolleyes: You should be planning you track far enough ahead to allow for ATC coordination. :hmm:

one of the things I noticed moving from Australia to Europe:

"Request 20 left for weather."

In Aus this meant "20 miles to the left" (procedural control). In Europe it means "20º to the left." (radar control) - caused a bit of confusion on my first wx encounter here. :ok:

[Slasher]

Slightley off topic but how many other guys hear in the sim
"request descent to FLXXX" following an engine failure in
high-level criuse?

I mean its sortve akin to asking ATC for the option "We have
to descend, but if you dont let us then we'll just stay up here
and eventualy fall out of the sky with the stall warning
screaming its guts out."

[johns7022]

'Center, this is 555PX, requesting 20 degree right for weather'

They usually respond back with..'Tripple Papa Xray, turn 20 right for weather, let me know when you can turn back on course'

-----------------------

Bearing failure at FL350...

'Center, this is 555PX, requesting lower into the 20s.., have an engine problem and will need to shut one of them down, please expedite'

'Roger 555PX, descend and maintain FL250...are you declaring and emergency..if so how many souls on board..and how much fuel.

'Negative on the declaring an emergency, just need priority for the approach. One soul on board, 9 car salesmen, and 2000lbs of JetA'

[clunckdriver]

Checkboard, nobody talked about leaving "it too late", I just find it totally bloody insane that this discusion is even going on,if you have to dodge/avoid a CB or whatever why in Gods name are you asking? "Excuse me , can I have permision not to kill myself and all the SLF in the back?" I can only asume that the original poster is a muppet or a self sponsored P2f, yesterday, we flew to and from to CYTZ during a period of fairly unstabe air, I didnt have to explain to the young lady doing all the work while I contemplate my navel that she should avoid the big Cauliflower on our track, "Toronto, we need to go left or right to avoid a CB, your choice" cant remember which way we went but we sure as hell didnt ask/beg permision to do it, And Checkrboard, dont be suprised that Ive survived, not only have I made it but all 324 pilots who have worked for us have, not many small outfits flying in this bloody climate can say this, again, I find this whole post to be totally of the wall, please tell me who you guys fly for and I will forbid my staff from deadheading with you in the interest of their longevity.{ But I bet you wear real spiffy uniforms with lots of gold bars}

[Checkboard]

I find that FOs here in Europe don't seem to have been introduced to the difference between "request" and "require", Slash.

eg: "Tell 'em we require runway 22".
FO : "Ahh Tower, is Runway 22 available? We would like to request that."

:rolleyes:

[crj705]

Checkboard, nobody talked about leaving "it too late", I just find it totally bloody insane that this discusion is even going on,if you have to dodge/avoid a CB or whatever why in Gods name are you asking?

Then don't take part in it. I asked a simple question about what is the standard ICAO phraseology.

"Excuse me , can I have permision not to kill myself and all the SLF in the back?" I can only asume that the original poster is a muppet or a self sponsored P2f

I can only assume that you are....... nevermind.

, yesterday, we flew to and from to CYTZ during a period of fairly unstabe air, I didnt have to explain to the young lady doing all the work while I contemplate my navel that she should avoid the big Cauliflower on our track,

Good for you. I flew around a typhoon yesterday. At one point I was not able to get any response on HF and I *gasp* left the airway without a clearance. According to you I must have been too stupid to go around it since I couldn't get "permission."

"Toronto, we need to go left or right to avoid a CB, your choice" cant remember which way we went but we sure as hell didnt ask/beg permision to do it,

I've used that same phrase here and went round and round with "You want left or right" for the next 5 transmissions. Must be nice to have native English controllers for every flight.


And Checkrboard, dont be suprised that Ive survived, not only have I made it but all 324 pilots who have worked for us have, not many small outfits flying in this bloody climate can say this, again,

You're one in a million I guess.

I find this whole post to be totally of the wall
Then don't post on it. It was a simple, black and white question about is there an ICAO standard phrase or not.

[clunckdriver]

CRJ705, I dont think you and I disagree, you seem to have the same take on this but from a different perspective, as for "English speaking controllers", my home base operates entirley in French {or a bastardised version of same} and having flown into most parts of the world to have to deal with ICAO English level zero is not something I miss these days, around here these days being able to speak Manderin would make life much less interesting, I just cant imagine the work load these kids are under leaning to fly/ living in a totally different society/away from home and family/and doing all this in English!The quicker we get coded data link the better! As for asking "left or right", one has to adjust terms used to fit into the language skills and idiom of the other party, something that our friends to the South of us often dont do.

[BOAC]

I found "xxx request 30 degrees right for weather or direct Final R25 Newcastle" used to work occasionally with Wien radar.

[galaxy flyer]

clunckdriver

On behalf of us Yanks, I take umbrage at that snarky comment.........and agree wholeheartedly!! :ok:

GF

[WX-T]

From ICAO; AIR TRAFFIC MANAGEMENT (DOC 4444)

15.2 SPECIAL PROCEDURES FOR IN-FLIGHT CONTINGENCIES IN OCEANIC AIRSPACE

15.2.3 Weather Deviation Procedures

15.2.3.1 General

NOTE: The following procedures are intended for deviations around adverse meteorological conditions.

15.2.3.1.1 When the pilot initiates communications with ATC, a rapid response may be obtained by stating “WEATHER DEVIATION REQUIRED” to
indicate that priority is desired on the frequency and for ATC response. When necessary, the pilot should initiate the communications using the urgency call “PAN PAN” (preferably spoken three times).

15.2.3.1.2 The pilot shall inform ATC when weather deviation is no longer required, or when a weather deviation has been completed and the aircraft has returned to its cleared route.

15.2.3.2 Actions to be Taken When Controller-Pilot Communications are Established


15.2.3.2.1 The pilot should notify ATC and request clearance to deviate from track, advising, when possible, the extent of the deviation expected.



A call for weather deviation would go somthing like this:


"Blackjack 201, weather deviations required 20 miles right of track."

[oz in dxb]

I wish most pilots would understand the differences of "request" and "require".
Both sound the same but they are DIFFERENT.
Request loosely means I would like/I have different options available to me.
Require loosely means I need/I have no other options available to me.

If you request weather deviation Left it would mean that deviation to the right could also be an option.
Require deviation Left means that is the only direction I can go. Right is NOT an option.

This can be put into other pilot needs. R/W etc...

Oz

[a.mandon]

Checkboard said:
"Request 20 left for weather."
In Aus this meant "20 miles to the left" (procedural control). In Europe it means "20º to the left." (radar control) - caused a bit of confusion on my first wx encounter here

Then, why not being more accurate by asking : "Request (require) 20° left for weather" or : " Request (require) 20 nm left for weather" ?!

[IVectorU]

Ok, from the ATC perspective it ideally sounds like this: "approach/departure, we require xxx degrees deviation for xxx, we'll advise when able back on course". I'll ask you your new heading in order to keep you separated by means of using divergence. The sooner pilots ask, the better- our letter of agreements with next facilities require to handoff the a/c on a certain heading or established on a route; so if every a/c I'm talking to is deviating, I'd have to closely watch them and coordinate with the next controller the position of each a/c. As a result, we will limit the number of additional a/c's arriving into my airspace which will sadly will cause delays.

Please do not give your friendly ATC additional stress by turning wherever; that's said, we always allow additional space for possible deviations around puffy clouds which pilots don't inform ATC about

[bobrun]

If you're in North America, most pilots use non standard phraseology. So learning by what you hear on the radio isn't exactly the best way to learn proper radio work. Instead, talk to flight crew who have flown around the world, from Europe to Asia, where english is most definitely not a first language and language barriers are clearly present. In such a context, saying things like " request 20 left" or "xyz is diverting left" will often get ATC confused.

If enroute, the proper phraseology is: "request 20 miles left/right of track due weather".

If in the terminal area under radar: "request heading 170 due weather" (note that you state the actual heading you need, instead of how many degrees of turn you want).

There's no need to explain the whole situation by saying there's a "CB ahead", or "we need to deviate around buildups", etc. Saying "due weather" is the enough and will always be understood anywhere you are. And that's the point with standard phraseology: it has to be easily understood by anyone, from the American in Chicago to the Taiwanese in Taipei. North American phraseology only works well in North America.

[heavy.airbourne]

:zzz:Nobody needs to request a weather induced deviation from the cleared track/airway, but you need to request an appropriate route to avoid conflicting traffic, and you will be cleared to follow a heading or off-track distance. Give that controllers a chance to keep you out of other aircraft's way!

"XXX, request H250 to avoid wx." - "XXX, cto avoid conflicting heading, can you accept H260?" - "XXX, negative, we need to turn further south to avoid." - "XXX, (fly H235, H235 approved to avoid), advise when able to turn on course!" (same for x NM r/l of track)

Actually, it's easy! Do what you need to do, and try to communicate it in the best way possible.

[rsiano]

The only obligation a pilot in command has: is to inform the controller that you are going to deviate. It is not required to supply parameters of the deviation or even of the direction of the deviation. By asking for permission to deviate you are giving the air traffic controller your command authority. NEVER allow an air traffic controller to take command of your aircraft.

[ImbracableCrunk]

I hear a lot of swaggering on here. I also hear a lot of thoughts from people with experience in only one part of the world.

Going from FIR to FIR and accent to accent makes a pilot appreciate standard phraseology. I'm glad someone is asking this question.

How about deviations in places like China? Or involving China? I was going in the area between Tapei, Fukuoka heading towards a monster CB. I asked the CA if he thought we could request a west deviation (into China's airspace) and he looked at me like I had four heads. Is deviation in that part of the world that much harder than in the US?

[10W]

The only obligation a pilot in command has: is to inform the controller that you are going to deviate. It is not required to supply parameters of the deviation or even of the direction of the deviation. By asking for permission to deviate you are giving the air traffic controller your command authority. NEVER allow an air traffic controller to take command of your aircraft.

And when you have the mid air ... let's hope your family can pay the legal bills.

If you need a deviation, as several level headed posters have said, let us know as soon as you can, and let us know what you want to do. 100% of ATC will try to help you out.

If there's a reason we can't approve it, such as 5 other aircraft have already gone in to that clear bit of sky, we can let you know and give you some other options. If you still want to go there, we can give the separation responsibility to you and your TCAS. Our game ends ... yours just begins :ok: The lawyers will win again.

[bobrun]

The only obligation a pilot in command has: is to inform the controller that you are going to deviate. It is not required to supply parameters of the deviation or even of the direction of the deviation.

I hope I'm never your passenger! :eek:

[supraspinatus]

I had an situation a couple of days ago. One inbound and one outbound. Both in climb/decent and radar headings to ensure proper separation.
About 10nm prior to the meeting point the inbound told me:
"Approach, AirlineXXX we are turning left heading 280 to avoid". That would be exactly on the outbound's track. There was at the time about 3000' between them.
The STCA immediately went off, and I replied: "NEGATIVE, opposite traffic 2500' below climbing through your level! Right turn to avoid is approved"

He returned to his original track and didn't say anything for a while. After a while he complained about having to fly through a CB giving him moderate turbulence.


The moral:
Tell us about the weather as early as you can. I will shake a h*** of a lot more hitting another aircraft.

[Fratemate]

I asked the CA if he thought we could request a west deviation (into China's airspace) and he looked at me like I had four heads. Is deviation in that part of the world that much harder than in the US?

Yes. Unfortunately politics do become involved in aviation sometimes and none morseo than between Taiwan and China. They are not the best of friends and your deviation from Taiwanese to Chinese airspace could trigger an undesired result.

[PBL]

Ah, the wonders of open forums! As crj705 pointed out, he asked a simple, direct question, and waited a goodly while until WX-T answered it.

There are semantic subtleties in the ICAO suggested phraseology which might be missed without careful reading.

Let's assume a non-radar environment. You, as pilot, require a deviation but you can only request clearance for it, for clearance is not yours to determine or assure. The response may be "unable", if someone has already booked the airspace. Which is presumably why ICAO suggest you assert priority handling with a PAN declaration.

PBL

[HEATHROW DIRECTOR]

<<And when you have the mid air ... let's hope your family can pay the legal bills.>>

Well said. There are a few interesting Type A cases on here, with whom I pray to God I never, EVER have to fly.

In 31 years working in a busy TMA where bad weather is a regular occurrence I never once refused a pilot a weather deviation, although I often suggested an alternative to what was asked for. I only recall a handful who, irresponsibly, turned without saying anything. Some of the guys on here ought to spend an hour watching a busy radar sector in bad weather. A pilot friend of mine did.... and he came away very visibly shaken.

Every professional controller knows who is in command of an aircraft - many controllers are pilots too - but in appalling conditions the controller has to juggle weather avoidance with aircraft avoidance so please keep that in mind.

[Checkboard]

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Quite a bit of "monkey see, monkey do" with pilots as well. The other day I refused a particular runway approach in Zurich, due weather, and was amused and the sudden flurry of voices asking for the same re-clearance I received! ;)

[bfisk]

It baffles me how completely oblivious a few individuals in this forum are to the difference between excersing the rights of PIC, and normal operations:

The whole "I can do whatever the hell i want because it's my aircraft" attitude sickens me. Yes; in the event of an emergency it is the commanders obligation and right to do whatever he can to ensure the safe and successful outcome of the flight. This does not mean you can do as you please, all the time, when it is completely unwarranted.

Since when in Gods name do you "request" a deviation which if not done will take the bloody wings of?

Since when in Gods name do you, as a responsible individual, adress the situation so late? Did that big CB just all of a sudden pop out of nothing, leaving you only one option? Surely, don't allow yourself and your passengers to get killed, but how the hell did you paint yourself so far into that corner in the first place?

Such knee-jerk reactions can cause safety hazards for not only you, but for other aircraft. By adressing the problem at an early stage, where many different solutions may provide successful outcomes, you can work with those around you, to find the best solution for all.

The only obligation a pilot in command has: is to inform the controller that you are going to deviate. It is not required to supply parameters of the deviation or even of the direction of the deviation.

Well, since the PIC is ultimately responsible for the safe conduct of the flight, I would challenge that statement. When you're doing something that no-one expects you to (remember, most ATC units don't see the weather you see, and there are still places in the world with no radar), then by all means, do tell the rest of us. I agree that communication is secondary to flying the airplane/avoiding mountans/not getting killed, it is still vital.

By asking for permission to deviate you are giving the air traffic controller your command authority. NEVER allow an air traffic controller to take command of your aircraft.

I probably shouldn't let that statement get the best of me, but get of your god damn horse. It's not about that. It's not even close to being about that. It's about making it work for everyone, under the assumption that all hell didn't break loose all of a sudden, with no forewarning. ATC and most others in here know the deal.


So... sorry for the rant. I'll probably be shot down by a lot of you, but hopefully some of you will understand my frustration. Hat, coat, door.

[IVectorU]

Bfisk, completely got your back on this. It is not a power struggle about who's gonna fly the a/c, it's pilot's job and I'm glad he/she can do it. However, it's my personal responsibility to keep 'em puppies apart and get 'em out of my space safely and expeditiously. Pilots who irresponsibly just crank left/right with no notice should really come to our TRACON and see what it looks like on the radar- we're covered in planes, and it's not same person who talks to all of them which is the trickiest part- when my arrivals deviate towards the departures the guy across the room is working, there's no time for coordination... Having said that, you bet your @$$ I'll do my best to get you around CB- generally, after two a/c asked for deviation around the same place, I'd drag the traffic management unit and my sup to work up the alternative route

[HEATHROW DIRECTOR]

More wise words from bfisk and IVectorU, which a few people on here would do well to thoroughly digest.

[clunckdriver]

Bfisk, At NO TIME did I mention or indicate anything about "Leaving it too late", Please do not distort my posts to make your own points, The fact remains that if you try flying inside a large Cauliflower the wings might just come of, even more likely in a BE20 if you dont have the spar strap mod compleated, {Is it done on yours? We had all our aircraft done, even when not an AD as we flew in a low level/ high cycle regime} In fact we found cracks in one of our older models so bad we grounded it.