Landing Lights?

[fireflybob]

Talking basic flying training in the UK

Just wondered what your FTO teaches with respect to use of landing lights for day operations?

What are the reason(s) for using landing lights by day?

Are there any airfields where the use of landing lights in the circuit by day is mandatory by local diktat?

If your FTO teaches use of landing lights by day what is the turnover rate on landing lights?

What do you think of teaching landing lights off after take off at 300 ft aal and the switching them on again during the pre-landing checks?

Thanks for any comments.

[welliewanger]

There are numerous options, each with good arguments.

1. It's day time, why do you need a light? The cost money don't you know!

2. Landing light on once cleared to land. This makes a good reference for those "did they clear me to land yet?" moments. This may be a bit busy for PPLs.

3. Landing light on in the circuit.

4. Landing light on in the ATZ. Lights always make you easier to see for collision avoidance.

In light aircraft I subscribe to 3/4. In the jet I fly, we go with the wing lights on (pulse / flash) below 10,000 and all landing lights on (steady) once given clearance to land.

[Cows getting bigger]

On or off, but don't start pratting around with them in the cct.

[Vortex Thing]

Agree with wellie re the jet thing.

We do fixed landing lights on below FL100, strobes & nav/position are always on, anti-coll means a/c is powered, is about to be or just has been so stay away until its off.

This was the same fixed and rotary for military (separate rules for ex/ops and strobing black environment but that's another issue)

Wrt to light aircraft I always teach lights off on departure with your after take off checks/ climb checks a/c or SOP dependant and then lts on when cleared to land.

The reasons given below re conspicuity I think all hold water so would understand them being left on at all times if doing circuit details.

Also same would apply to FLWOP/FLWP/PFLs, Low Level Nav, Low Level Ccts, aeros or anything where you feel that more conspicuity is needed.

I have found that some of the smaller schools I taught at thought this a little rigid but many others insisted it was so but the same argument went for pitot heater on/off when/where? (not trying to open up another thread) but it is one of the things that drove me away from small schools as though I understand financial imperative safety is what it is and costs what it costs and is always cheaper than the accident.

IMHO the student at this level should not be given a choice in how they adapt SOPs they just do what the school instructors/standards have agreed and then when they have the choice later in their flying be that professional or as experienced PPLs then they have the ability to make the choice but I do not think that the student early on has the capacity to work out if they require a certain level of conspicuity in a given situation such as is it close to sunset/sunrise, poor vis , etc, etc so basically the more light and the more standard when it comes on/off the better.

SOPs save lives!;)

[DB6]

All lights on before departure, all stay on until after landing. How many times have you seen a quick flash of light (usually in a turn) before seeing the aircraft it was coming from? If you're at the hold waiting to line up, what do you see first, the lights on the approaching aircraft or the aircraft itself? I rest my case.

[jidder]

Be safe Be seen:ok:

J:E

[mrmum]

Just my personal opinions, but here they are;

Just wondered what your FTO teaches with respect to use of landing lights for day operations?
Switch on at HP/pre-departure checks, switch off with after-landing checks.

What are the reason(s) for using landing lights by day?
Pretty much the same as DB6, if you are approx. in someone's 12 O'clock, you'll see the light easier than just the aircraft.

Are there any airfields where the use of landing lights in the circuit by day is mandatory by local diktat?
Not that I go to, but it's not a bad idea to do so. That doesn't mean I think we need more petty airfield rules.

If your FTO teaches use of landing lights by day what is the turnover rate on landing lights?
They generally need replaced before a 50hr check, that's on PA28s/38s, mounted in lower engine cowling, may last longer on wing mounted types.

What do you think of teaching landing lights off after take off at 300 ft aal and the switching them on again during the pre-landing checks?
I agree with CGB, pointless switch fiddling in the circuit isn't helpful, students have got enough do do already.

[fireflybob]

Thanks for all the replies.

I agree, landing light(s) on before departure and remain on until after landing.

[Gulfstreamaviator]

Beacon on when an engine is ON, or being started or running down.

Taxi lights ON when actually moving on the operational areas, or until after take off checks.

Landing lights ON when cleared for take off......off in after take off checks.

Landing lights ON when landing clearance received.

At transition, or 10,000 ft, or as per company procedures does effect the actual timing.

Strobes ON when entering the runway, OFF when exiting the runway.

glf

[fireflybob]

Gulfstreamaviator, thanks but my query related to light general aviation aircraft below circa 5000ft, specifically related to ab initio training.

Shiny jet aircraft have more lights inboard/outboard/runway turn off lights, as I sure you know, where there are similar but different considerations.

[212man]

I operate offshore helicopres, but our SOP (which I write) is landing lights on when ready to taxy, off when finally stopped and about to shutdown. Conspicuity should be paramount in any environment that may rely on visual acquisition and separation. I also think the "it wears the bulbs out " argument is flawed (when it is touted) for two reasons:

1) The fillaments are more durable when hot and elastic, and subjected to fewer stress cycles of heating and cooling, so I believe they last at least as long.

2) So what (if they do fail more quickly - which I doubt) if they may save your life!

[Ryan5252]

2) So what (if they do fail more quickly - which I doubt) if they may save your life!Indeed!! This is an argument I put to my club only a few weeks back. At the start of the year the club put the price up to solo hire a particular aircraft due to increasing costs (which i'll not bore you with as you're all no doubt familiar with!) This is fine and I am more than happy with the service provided, condition of a/c and other facilities. I do however subscribe to their Terms & Conditions and pay my membership when due. However I have my own few T's & C's: when I fly their aircraft (and pay them for the privilege) I expect to have full use of the aircraft when hired to me including the (limited) bells and whistles.

They asked me recently, after observing a landing, to be 'more considerate' to their operating costs (referring to my use of landing light). My response was that, while I understand they're concerns in minimising their costs, I feel safer to operate in the circuit (and around other airports, VRPs and other prominent landmarks) with both landing light and nav lights in operation. I also made the point I was aware that it was in my own interest to consider their costs as these will undoubtedly be passed on to the hirer and therefore I do try my best to mitigate costs without comprising safety or efficiency (leaning mixture in the cruise for example and how many new PPL's bother when they are paying a wet rate anyway?)

To answer the OP's original question as to the FTO's guidelines, in my case I suppose the use of landing lights is not defined explicitly in writing, but it is my view most would prefer minimal use or night time use only. However at the end of the day, it is my choice as PIC of the aircraft I pay good money to hire, to ensure my flight is conducted safely and I personally believe being lit like a Christmas tree may help someone spot me sooner - especially as I may not have spotted them! On the other hand; it may make no difference whatsoever, in which case it is nothing more than a comfort factor - but the point is, even considering club SOPs/Guidelines etc, remember, ultimately it's your responsibility to ensure you see and be seen and you should feel free to use whatever features of the aircraft you want to help you to do so.

Cheers
Ryan

EDIT: Just to add, I don't fly with Nav/Landing lights on all throughout the flight. It is only in areas where I expect a build up traffic likely to congregate or when conditions are 'marginal VFR' :}. It should be considered that the landing light even of a light GA aircraft is incredibly strong on the ground (though it admittedly dosn't seem so) and one should always be wary to turn it off when not required outside the runway (i.e. day time ops) as it can easily dazzle other air/ground crews.

[DB6]

'It should be considered that the landing light even of a light GA aircraft is incredibly strong on the ground (though it admittedly dosn't seem so) and one should always be wary to turn it off when not required outside the runway (i.e. day time ops) as it can easily dazzle other air/ground crews.'

No it isn't and no it doesn't. Do you get dazzled when you check the landing light during a walkround? Have you ever been dazzled by a landing light during daylight? Similar twaddle proliferates regarding the use of strobes. On an airliner or military aircraft with high-intensity strobes, or at night with adjusted night vision, maybe. But a light aircraft? No. It doesn't seem so because it isn't.

[Ryan5252]

No. It doesn't seem so because it isn't.

Perhaps its variable, but to answer your question yes I have been dazzeled by landing lights before I don't appreciate it, no excuse for trudging around the apron with one's landing light on in perfect daylight hours.

Ryan

[Dagenhamdave]

I'm Just 11 hours into my fixed wing training at an airfield in Essex,
Landing light on when entering the runway, off at 300 ft , on at base then off when runway vacated. I was told that some studies have proved that having the landing light on during the low levels reduces the chance of birdstike?????? also if you are in the cruise and see another aircraft in your vicinity (opposing track) you could turn it on then off to highlight your position, especially in haze or mist.
then again what do I know :cool:

[fireflybob]

I cannot understand the reason for switching the landing light off at 300 ft after take off and then switching it on again in the Pre Landing Checks! Leave the landing light ON for the whole flight! Are you telling me that conspicuity in the circuit between 300 ft and half way along the downwind leg doesn't matter? Also as had been said previously do you want an ab initio student fumbling around with the landing light switch at 300 ft after take off - throw in an engine failure at that point and it could be interesting.

To summarise, landing light ON in the Pre Take Off Checks and OFF in the after landing check! KISS!!!

[asyncio]

I cannot understand the reason for switching the landing light off at 300 ft after take off and then switching it on again in the Pre Landing Checks!Isn't it because the aim is to actually teach departures and arrivals, and a circuit is just a fast way of doing that?
Same as a touch and go is a quick landing and a quick take off.
(There's already another discussion on here somewhere about how students should be taught full stop landings before touch and goes)

So if you just leave the light on, aren't you risking them forgetting to switch it off/on when really departing/arriving from an airfield.

[Kiltie]

Advocating having every light switched on for conspicuity in every situation can't be generalised to all aircraft in my opinion. Many landing lights flush with the leading edge of the wing, on some twins for example, will crack or discolour the perspex cover if left on for prolonged periods with no cooling airflow over them. The same is true of some Boeings.

Strobes on any aircraft outwith an active runway is distracting, particularly at night. I was un-nerved on an approach some time ago by an aircraft sitting at the holding point with strobes and white lights on.......the glare worried me that he was about to enter the active; in the end he didn't but it didn't calm my nerves until we had passed him and were on to the touchdown zone.

Strobes on an active runway are an absolute Godsend, day and night. Regarding white lights on below FL100 on commercial aircraft, this conspicuity rule I think was generated by a CAA FODCOM or AIC or something similar so is not operator-specific.

Why has nobody come up with the "go by the manufacturer's POH" yet?:E

[fireflybob]

So if you just leave the light on, aren't you risking them forgetting to switch it off/on when really departing/arriving from an airfield.

No because you leave the landing light ON for the whole flight!

Kiltie, my original query which started this thread was concerning basic flying training in light single engine piston a/c. Yes, I agree on more complex aircraft there isn't a case for having every single light switched on for the whole flight. For example, the SOP for the Boeing which I fly for a living is retractable lights off with gear up and the rest of the landing lights off passing FL 100 on the climbout and vice versa on the descent.

So to return to my original query with respect to student pilots learning to fly the reason for having a (the) landing light at all times whilst airborne is primarily for conspicuity. If you accept this then why switch the landing light off at 300 ft and then switch it on again during the Pre Landing Checks? Are we less bothered about having an airprox between 300 ft after take off and half way along the downwind leg? Much easier to switch the light on in the Pre Take Off Checks and just leave it on until the After Landing Check.

This is still, as far as I aware, what the UK military teach - perhaps someone (DB6 ?) could confirm this?

[FIR3er]

Landing lifhts are good for see and avoid principal.

In non-controlled aerodromes they assist you in the circuit and also are a good practice for if you are going to train on larger aircraft where you need the use of landing lights.

The small cost of a landing lights is a small price for safety.

[Cows getting bigger]

I like to teach student pilots the reason behind doing something; I struggle to grasp the on/off routine at 300ft.

Personally, I would much prefer the pilot to make a decision based on all the information presented to him/her. For example: what is the visibility like? Am I flying out of sun? What does the POH say? What are the risks - ie what airspace am I in?

One final thought - in the big picture landing lights aren't exactly high on my priority list of things to do/teach at the PPL stage.

[DB6]

Fireflybob, when I was last involved with RAF teaching (2003) it was and I doubt it will have changed., conspicuity being the overriding consideration. Also no mucking about with switches etc. on the runway, so all checks done while stationary, brakes on, before takeoff or clear of the runway after landing. Less scope for errors and being head-down while moving on the ground.
Ryan5252, apologies, I stand corrected then, although I am talking here about being dazzled i.e. vision adversely affected, not just noticing a flash in my peripheral vision. I have been dazzled by airliner taxi/ landing lights at night, but never by light aircraft in daylight. But then I never need to wear sunglasses either so you are probably right, it's variable.

[leading edge!]

I follow ATPL checks at the threshold before entering the runway. Whether it is right or wrong is subject to debate, but I maintain a 100% pass rate with all of my students at PPL.

It is an easy 'ish' acronym to follow and is as follows (you do not want a checklist to refer to at a critical time ie entering a runway):

A-Approach clear
T-Transponder set to ALT
P-Pitot heat to on if external temp is 10deg or less
L-Landing light on if visibility is less than 10k

Several schools teach this as well as I....

Re the landing light off...poor practice 300' in my opinion, when you should be looking out etc....wait to 1000' above airfield, then pumps (PA28) and landing light off, when leaving the circuit. If remaining in the circuit, leave everything on and keep it simple!

Regards

Leading Edge!

[belowradar]

I teach lights ON

Entering the runway
in the CCT
CLIMBING
APPROACHING AIRFIELD
LOW VIZ / HAZE
TRAFFIC CALLED AHEAD (to improve the other guys chances of spotting
me)

No sparing of bulbs

[NazgulAir]

Certain places may have extra rules governing the use of landing lights.

From the AIP for The Netherlands:
All aircraft performing VFR flights in the Eelde CTR must show their landing lights.
All aircraft performing VFR flights in the Schiphol CTR must show their landing lights.

Note: in the Rotterdam CTR aircraft do not have to show their landing lights.

So, it would be prudent for an instructor to teach the pupil the common sense recommendations wrt seeing, being seen and not blinding people, as well as officul rules -- and that the official rules may vary per aerodrome.

[flatfilea4]

The FAA advice to use landing lights below 10,000 ft, day or night, especially when operating within 10 miles of any airport, or in reduced visibility, or where flocks of birds may be expected, seems sensible and is my practice.

[polyfiber]

I used to be in the "landing lights on in the circuit" camp but now only use them in hazy conditions or at night. In Canada you are not required to even have a functioning landing at night unless you are carrying a pax. :ok: Anti colision and nav lights are required though.

[chris keeping]

I'm a firm believer in using what is available to draw attention to the aeroplane I am flying, and landing lights are one of them. Always used them in the circuit and elsewhere when conditions were marginal, and in Hong Kong where I used to instruct such conditions were fairly common.

[Piper.Classique]

Hmmmm
I fly a bright yellow aircraft which doesn't have landing lights, largely because it is a day VFR aircraft. I do have and use tricolour lights. Do you seriously think I am invisible? I teach on microlights, which don't have landing lights either. I do teach lookout, lookout, and more lookout. The less time spent with the head inside fiddling with switches means the more time is available for looking outside. IHMO this debate is pretty pointless. If you have got a means of being more obvious, use it, especially if you can avoid dazzling the rest of the world. I don't think turning lights on and off every five minutes contributes anything to flight safety. I do think using your eyes and manouvering to clear your blind spots is useful. Don't expect everyone else to see you, try to see everyone else. Now if we all do that, maybe it will help!

[polyfiber]

Yes, far too many pilots today are fiddling with their GPS or some other gadget and not looking out the cockpit. There are lots of airborne objects out there without landing lights, geese come to mind.

[Finals19]

In busy UK airspace (especially class G) see and be seen should surely be the mantra used by all?

Our machine, which is a skydive jump aircraft, is big and white and probably not the easiest thing to spot...so...

1) Lights on for take off / strobes on once in runway environment
2) Lights off with after take off checks (approx 1000ft)
3) Lights on in descent passing FL50 (anything to assist in seeing a pure white high wing utility aircraft bearing down on you at 2000fpm and 120kts!)
4) Lights / strobes off once cleared the active runway

I cannot see any sense in NOT having your landing lights on when entering a conventional circuit or ATZ. A glint of a landing light is going to catch yr attention when performing a visual scan.

[On-MarkBob]

People seem to make all kinds of rules for these lights. In my opinion they are a pilot discretionary item. The first thing you should remember is, at the moment, to the pilot they are FREE!!! Common sense, I think.

The trouble with making up rules is that pilots can be preoccupied with the rule. Unbelievably, in the London TMA an aircraft bust its assigned altitude, the reason was that the company SOP was that the lights were to be turned ON within 25Miles of the airport (another stupid rule). The pilots were so busy watching the DME to be first to turn the lights on, they both missed the fact they had flown straight through their altitude!

Another fact is that according to the British ANO, there is no provisions for Landing lights, taxi lights, logo lights, icing lights and cabin lights, that can all be seen from an aircraft in flight. However, the order has provision for navigation lights, flashing red lights and strobe lights BUT, specifically states that "NO OTHER LIGHTS SHALL BE CARRIED". So now we know there are illegal anyway, why turn them on at all?

It's all pedantic claptrap. I say use them when you want to and use your head, remember that, unless the CAA wants to prosecute you, they are FREE!

Remember also that some airports require the use of certain lights as and when according to their bye laws!!!

[shahabpk]

Landing lights are used for scaring the birds in the final approach path while landing.

[Big Pistons Forever]

Landing lights on when cleared for takeoff (controlled airport) or when commencing takeoff roll (uncontrolled airport). They stay on untill clear of the aerodrome traffic area/control zone. On in the practice area or when low level in poorer vis.

On return to the airport landing light goes on before entering the airport area and stays on untill clear of the runway. I think the landing light off at 300 feet thing is silly.

As for all those moaning about the cost of landing lights...... I say grow up. It makes airplanes significantly more conspicous and in my case the fact that another airplane had a landing light on probably saved my life.

[S-Works]

Mmmmmm, landing lights what a luxury!! Where do I get one of those new fangled beasties? Does it use that electrickery stuff? How do I get that fitted?

:p:p:p:p

[EGMC]

Just wanted to post a lesson I learnt last week:
It was a night landing with the landing light switch in the ON position- It wasn't until over the numbers I realised there was no light coming out of it!
Landed by using aspect of runway edge lights- like I was trained to... But I should have checked fuses as a part of my Approach-checks, then it wouldn't have been such a surprise.
Ohh, and a further tip: After landing, stop and get a lit escort to guide you off if possible or even shut down somewhere near and out of the way. In a simulated failure with an instructor it would be logical to just switch it on again after landing. Just some decision-making experiences from a low-houred PPL.

I like the idea of using it near busy VRP's, and on and off if you spot conflicting traffic to catch their attention, thanks