Belvedere

[RedhillPhil]

Apologisticas if this is parked in the wrong place but I've often wondered.........in my child like memories of a few years ago I can recall Bristol's Belvedere as a sort of forerunner to the Chinook. I've heard sort of dispariging things about it but the Chinook is usually spoken of in better terms. Was the Belvedere not a good bit of kit?

[BEagle]

When I was a student at ULAS, one of the QFIs had flown the wretched thing. It was known in the Far East as 'Mixmaster bilong suicide' amongst other, rather less polite descriptions.

[teeteringhead]

An early procurement "pigs" as I recall - or recall being told - even I'm not that old a rotary person.

The aircraft was originally designed for the RN, hence the spindly u/c, so that a torpedo could be carried beneath the fuselage. But - lo and behold - it had no folding blades so could not go down a carrier lift - not a lot of use to the FAA then. Good procurement staff answer, give it to the RAF!

But it retained said high u/c, guaranteeing that, even when on the ground it was a high enough jump to crack the odd pongoes' ankles - and even more likely when deplaning from the hover.

And the RAF only had a single hook for USLs (underslung loads), which put an enormous bending load on the aircraft's spine. Good engineering staff answer - life the airframe (yes really) at 1500 hours, so perfectly serviceable entire aircraft were binned when they ran out of hours....

And then there was the AVPIN engine start, with the AVPIN tank thoughtfully placed just behind the pilots' heads.....

Some of this may be Urban Myth, but it sounds so awfully believable......!

[oldbeefer]

If I remember rightly, it had an engine at each end and a combining shaft joining the two gearboxes. Fine until the shaft broke, then stopping the front blades from colliding with the rear was a bit of a problem (OK in fwd flight where the discs were separated, but to flare.....?).

[green granite]

Interesting info plus some comments by people involved with them here: Bristol Type 191/192 "Belvedere" helicopter - development history, photos, technical data (http://www.aviastar.org/helicopters_eng/bristol_belvedere.php)

[Tallsar]

A good link above I think.
If nothing else, whatever its difficulties, the Belvedere paved the way for the UK to understand it needed MSH from operations in the Middle (26 sqn) and Far East (66 sqn) - it lead to the first UK CH47 order (15) which was then cancelled when we withdrew from the Far East in 1971. Unfortunately at the time, there was no endorsed requirement for any MSH in Germany so it took another 10 years before we saw Chinooks at all in UK service - and then only because there was a budget surplus allowing a quick buy in 1978.
It was also testament, IMO, on how not to try and use a design for 2 very different roles..after all the Belvedere had its genesis in the RN ASW/torpedo bomber role, and much of its design reflected that. So despite efforts to upgrade it for the SH task it never quite made the grade, never mind some of its inherent basic design/reliability flaws. Now where have we seen similar.....mmmmmmm EH101???...surely not.....:ugh::)

[charliegolf]

Avpin Starts

There was a Sqn Ldr Spec Aircrew on 33 (early 80s) who had flown Belvederes. He reckoned the start sequence was run with the pilot's legs out the side door- just in case! So no myth on that score. P'raps!

CG

PS I think there's a YouTube vid out there worth a look, but I'm no good at the linky thing.

[oldbeefer]

Was that Sqn Ldr Pete C? I too was on 33 in the early '80s.

[oldbeefer]

The beast in action in Coventry COVENTRY - SPIRE BY COPTER - British Pathe (http://www.britishpathe.com/record.php?id=42137)

[charliegolf]

Yes it was, but I'm so old and removed now, I can't remember his surname. I went to 230 in mid 83, so hardly knew him save for a Belize do.

CG

[NutLoose]

Yup, they also did a display with a bunch of unstrapped in Gurkhas?? and when he flared, they all went sliding back down the arse end and his flare erm sort of developed a lot.....

The late old 230 Sqn F/Sgt A****r M******* used to be on them and said they were a fire trap...

[ORAC]

Belvedere Memories (http://www.hmfriends.org.uk/memorbelv.htm)

[philrigger]

;)

The late old 230 Sqn F/Sgt A****r M******* ...

I did not hear of Arthur's demise. Can you enlighten me? He was a good friend to me while I was on 230 in '77 to 81'.

Sorry for the threadcreep.


Phil

[Tankertrashnav]

He reckoned the start sequence was run with the pilot's legs out the side door- just in case! So no myth on that score. P'raps!


I was Station Fire officer at Seletar in '67 when 66 sqn were there with their Belvederes. I remember one of our fire crews attended an Avpin start-up fire which was put out by the engine extinguishers. I had to fill in an incident report which had a section for injuries. This read - "One - pilot broke ankle jumping out of aircraft!"

So I don't think the above was a myth!

Somewhere I've got a grainy black and white snapshot of the final squadron flypast, when if memory serves they managed to get 11 aircraft flying!

[Gainesy]

Probably the only aircraft named after an architectural feature, apparently its some sort of dormer window with a small balcony.

[barnstormer1968]

"][/URL]This is a nice cine film showing belvederes....Ten at once in one portion.

YouTube - Belvedere Flypast (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rrtsk8-oXBA&feature=related)

[Dundiggin']

I know that Stan Smith was on Belvederes but I don't think he made Sqn Ldr. Stan had many apochryphal stories about the starts. Apparently he used to stand outside and use a stick to prod the start button (?) Was that poss? He was that short in stature that he probably had to stand on a ladder! ;)

[Tankertrashnav]

"][/url]This is a nice cine film showing belvederes....Ten at once in one portion.



Thanks Barnstormer, that's the one I was referring to above. I was standing at the fire section under the tower so just out of shot at one stage! Nice to get a glimpse of 34 Sqn Beverleys at one point - another ungainly but useful beast based at Seletar!

[charliegolf]

He was that short in stature that he probably had to stand on a ladder!

Stan was so short, he could jump out and have time to open a parachute safely!

The bloke also flew an exchange tour on B29s! Great storyteller.

CG

I've remembered who Pete C is: dredged his name up after Oldbeefer mentioned him.

[Tallsar]

I am confident that Ray Lawrence, who was an excellent ground instructor in my younger days at Shawbury, was not only an ex Belvedere pilot, but also one of those with a limp following foot injury during one of those iffy Avpin starts that lead to perilous jumps from by the then ladderless cockpit - it was bad enough for me on Hunter start ups (and those from Canberras and Wessex 1s will have similar recalls). Lets face it, it would never get an RTS these days with such a start up risk.
Wonderful 66 sqn disbandment formation film though.....something the CH47 force has yet to equal I think.....but then they are so often needed elsewhere I don't suppose there are ever enough at Odiham for such an event....maybe one day - perhaps if the fundetectors will allow, a mass flypast of all those in the 'Stan when the great day for withdrawal happens, and as a celebration of all their efforts and bravery??? We can but hope :ugh::)

[sycamore]

To add a little bit more; the flying controls power units were mounted at the front cockpit area and then linked by cables to the rear rotor- I think the cause of the Borneo fatality was the cables came off the rollers,and the loss in tension caused the rear rotor to become uncontrollable.
A ladder was used to get into the cockpits and I seem to recall the seats had limited f/a adjustment only.
The aircraft could only be refuelled engines stopped ,as the fuel fillers were next to the engine exhausts,up top,so one started a task with a lot of fuel and then increased the pax/frt as fuel was burned,unlike on WWs,we could take 10 troops, enough fuel for a short 10-15 min round trip and then another `splash and dash`, not quite F1, but about 2- 3 mins to onload troops/fuel.One WW could beat a Belvedere on a troop-lift,until he was well down on fuel,as the troops had to climb up a ladder to get into the cabin. The Bevelgear could go like a train, about 120-130 kts,but stopping/slowing down took a bit of time/distance; so it`s best use was carrying underslung loads, 105 howitzers+ammo into LZs; I also managed to supply 66Sdn with 3 Whirlwinds in various states of unserviceability to take back for repair.
I`m also sure a BVG had a syncho shaft failure at Seletar,but it was landed safely,as the rotors are well spaced vertically,have little overlap,and don`t intermesh when stopped,but someone will doubtless correct me.
It could also be run-up to max power on the ground,not tied-down,by fitting small drogue -chutes to the blades.(mini wind-socks).
A few names on 66, Bunny Austin,Bill Russell, Dennis Southern,John ZZ(mitrwicz),John Charlesworth,and Ray Lawrence,he of fame of getting airborne in his homebuilt aeroplane in Kuching..at best guess about 1 foot altitude,but then 30*C+ with 90% humidity , the m/c twin was hard pushed against the drag of Ray`s moustache! And there`s more to tell, another time...

[Fareastdriver]

I have a cine film I took of the last Bevelgear fly past from the ground at Changi. As well as 209's Twin Pins farewell.
Apparantly one was a 'cut & shut' from two. The front being from the Gurkha helter skelter and the rear from an avpin fire. I watched the last one in the UK being airtested before dispatch to 66 in Singapore and it resided permantly in Seletar MU. When it was pulled put to be scrapped they found it had the same Serial as one of the squadron aircraft.

[charliegolf]

Ray Lawrence: he of the Big Green Arrow?

If so he used to have big a 3-D cardboard arrow which he would keep tucked under his arm as he lectured us on helicopter aerodynamics.

CG

[Lyneham Lad]

Much more on the old girl in the Nostalgia (http://www.pprune.org/aviation-history-nostalgia/383552-belvedere-hc1.html) forum here on PPrune.

[ShyTorque]

I met John Dowling (of the Coventry Cathedral Spire fame) at Shawbury, many years ago. He told me about the AVPIN starts, one leg inside the cockpit, the other over the window sill.

I've mentioned this before on a previous thread. Ray Lawrence and I got on very well at Shawbury, we had similar engineering interests. He brought his scrapbook of "projects" to show me. What an amazing talent Ray had.

His own design, one-man helicopter was powered by a Triumph 500cc twin motorbike engine! In addition to that and his triplane, he designed and made a speed boat, a caravan, a hovercraft, a large radio controlled helicopter (well before they were available commercially, plus his own radio control gear), a reflecting telescope (hand made lenses) and a number of multi-cylinder model radial aircraft engines.

[sycamore]

Shy,I guess you`ve seen the pics of the Kuching Flyer,but you may not have seen the pic of Ray playing the string Bass...in the nude...!

[Saint Jack]

An excellent thread, and as 'Lyneham Lad' said in his post, there is more information on this love-it or hate-it helicopter in the 'Nostalgia' section.

'sycamore' A slight correction regarding the flight controls. Yes, the hydraulic servos were mounted below the cockpit but, IIRC, the motion to the front and rear rotors was by means of push-pull rods, not cables. Cables were only used in the yaw controls and connected the pedals to the (can't remember). In addition to the Borneo fatality, a yaw cable was also the cause of at least one fatal accident with a Khormaksar-based helicopter. On arrival there in 1965, I heard that it 'snapped'.

[TBM-Legend]

I guess the US equivalent was the Vertol H-21 Shawnee. Seemed to be used in big numbers by many operators and was very relevant in early Vietnam days. The daddy of the H-46 and H-47....

[oldbeefer]

Ray lawrence, still going strong, I believe. Did hear tales that when the T/R control cables were changed, they were put back on the shelf in the stores ('cos nobody had told them not to) and then reissued. Eventually the obvious happened!.. Charlie Golf - must have followed you around as I went to 230 (via 6mths in Belize) in '85 after stint on 33.

[charliegolf]

OB, PM sent.

CG

[NutLoose]

Quote:
The late old 230 Sqn F/Sgt A****r M******* ...
I did not hear of Arthur's demise. Can you enlighten me? He was a good friend to me while I was on 230 in '77 to 81'.

Sorry for the threadcreep.


Phil


Phil, was told a while ago of his sad demise....... was one of lifes Gentlemen and nicknamed the first two Chinooks we got on the OCU, Flirty Gerty and Firey Fred.. will check my messages on another site and let you know more......

[teeteringhead]

Ray Lawrence, still going strong, I believe. ... and certainly until VERY recently (maybe still?) still playing the string bass .... but clothed....;)

[oldbeefer]

Tell us more!

[ewe.lander]

I was on the Puma OCU in '75 (Crewman) - I seem to remember a Belvedere parked in the corner of 240's tin hangar?

Then on 33 (I was on 230) there was the immortal FS 'Guilthrax', shaky hands due to his time on Belvederes?!

Years later flying in Civvy Street with a fellow ex-RAF who's Dad sadly died in a Belvedere crash in Borneo.

[NutLoose]

ewe.landerI was on the Puma OCU in '75 (Crewman) - I seem to remember a Belvedere parked in the corner of 240's tin hangar?



That and the bloody boat we had to shove about to get em all in sometimes.... ahh... loved working over there..

[ShyTorque]

Shy,I guess you`ve seen the pics of the Kuching Flyer,but you may not have seen the pic of Ray playing the string Bass...in the nude...!

Thankfully, no - he spared me that. :eek:

[excrewingbod]

Interesting thread.

My old man spent a bit of time in the jungle with the Belvedere, back in the 60's.

A few pictures he took whilst out in Borneo
http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y205/DarrenBe/Belvedere_2.jpg

http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y205/DarrenBe/Belvedere_1.jpg

No idea who the chap is, but I presume its the cockpit ladder in the background.
http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y205/DarrenBe/Borneo25Belvedere_2.jpg

Re 'splash and dash' on the WW
http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y205/DarrenBe/Borneo48whirlwind_2.jpg

[sycamore]

ecb, I think the ladder is propped near the fuel filler cap ,near the exhausts ,and the lads are trying to get the Zwicky pump to start- rotors are stopped- the drums in the first picture should have been stood upright for at least 30 mins,so I guess it must have been a 110Sdn Det- slackers !!

[OLLY HOLBROOK]

I give you
http://www.feaf-26sqdn-pix.co.uk/GalleryPage.php (http://www.feaf-26sqdn-pix.co.uk/GalleryPage.php)

not yet complete but a start at a pictorial history of our detachment.

let me know your thoughts.

regards Olly

[mstjbrown]

Charlie Golf:-
In the 60's in Aden, the Belvedere Sqn's offices were next to to my Shackleton Sqn's premises and the word then was if you heard a Belvedere starting up you watched closely because you would be a witness at Board of Enquiry rather than a member of the Board investigating the fire. We did fly in the Belvederes from time to time as waist gunners using GPMGs as they had no establishment for that role.

[BEagle]

Olly - brilliant! Always good to see photos from the days when the UK had a proper air force....:uhoh:

Seriously though, photos from those days are becoming increasingly rare and we should all be very grateful that you've seen fit to preserve your priceless photos for posterity.

Thank you very much!

[sycamore]

Concur with BEags; changed a bit now though,Thanks ..

[Old-Duffer]

The photo collection of 26 Sqn are absolutely fantastic - well done and thank you.

However, if we are talking Far East Air Force and 26 disbanded in Aden and sent the cabs to Singapore, isn't this really 66?

O-D (standing by for smacked knuckles!!!)

[Gainesy]

Great pics Olly, thanks.

Are the ones of burnt out aircraft a result of AvPin starts going Pete Tong?

[teeteringhead]

However, if we are talking Far East Air Force and 26 disbanded in Aden and sent the cabs to Singapore, isn't this really 66?
..... up to a point O-D ...

.... Halley has it that "...(26 Sqn) provided transport support for the Army in the Radfan until the end of November 1965 when it was transferred to Singapore, being merged with No 66 Sqn at Seletar on 30th November 1965" [my bold italics]

Which would suggest an existence - albeit brief - of 26 in FEAF. 66 of course moved to FEAF in June 1962 until disbanded in March 1969.

What think you O-D? I'm sure you'll put me right if necessary - as you often have!;)

[PhamousPhotographer]

The beast in action in Coventry 72 Squadron’s first rotary type as well. The late “Mr Helicopter”, John Dowling, OC 72 at the controls of XG466 for those two lifts on 22nd April 1962.

[Old-Duffer]

I think one might need to treat Halley's comments in a general rather than precise way and Jefford and J D R Rawlings (Coastal & Support sqns of the RAF) are a little more emphatic that 26 sent its aircraft to Seletar (and probably some personnel as well.

In any event, we're only talking about a single month and the Form 540 for that month will tell all. It's not really important -- it's the photographs that are.

COVENTRY CATHEDRAL:

Incidentally, John Dowling - who could be a difficult cuss at times - was aided and abetted by Jim Martin and Ron Salt, the last named is certainly still with us. JD departed a decade ago, leaving me to deliver a major presentation on the origins of rotary winged aircraft in the RAF, which was really 'his subject' by right - I hope I didn't let him down!

A few years ago, whilst serving with the RAFVR(T), I got into a debate with the then Bishop of Coventry - an avowed pacifist, which he's entitled to be - but I drew the line when he appeared on TV and described Bomber Command aircrew as 'mass murderers'. I challenged him to debate this matter but he told me he had more important things which claimed his time and refused all further contact. I later had cause to criticise the church authorities at Coventry when they refused to allow a service in honour of the Air Training Corps to be held in the cathedral because of their (then) anti-military stance. I responded with photos of the spire and flechette being put on the cathedral roof and reminded them that the military they so despised had topped off their building for them - free of charge. I got no reply!

O-D

[barnstormer1968]

I am sure the churches view was a major annoyance in your life at that time, but then it sometimes seems that the C of E's role is to change its mind whenever it suits!

I seem to recall the Queen is the head of the UK Church of England......Oh and the military too (which she supports). Maybe the chap you dealt with was trying to make amends for all the killing that was not only done in the name of Christianity, but in the name of the C of E.

It did always make me chuckle when trying to organise ATC events, that so many folks would turn down ALL cadets, but were happy to do anything for the scouts, an organisation not originally designed to be just somewhere to keep kids off the streets.

Sorry for going off thread.

[Saint Jack]

It was 26 Sqdn. at Khormaksar and to the best of my recollection it was diapanded in late 1965 and the Belvedere's were allocated to 66 Sqdn. based at Seletar with a permanent detachment at Labuan. The helicopters were shipped out of Aden on either HMS Bulwark or Albion, I can never remember which, together with a detachment of engineers to look after them enroute. The remainder of the engineers, myself included, flew to Manama in a Hastings and then to Changi in a Comet. I don't recall the aircrew, if any, that transferred with the helicopters.

Upon arrival at Seletar, OC 66 Sqdn. Sqdn. Ldr. 'Bunny' Austin, got all the former 26 Sqdn. groundcrew together for a 'welcome' talk and finished by saying "... I don't want to see a squadron wthin a squadron....". I never heard any references to 26 Sqdn. subsequent to that. Therefore I don't believe it would be correct to say 26 Sqdn. was merged with 66 Sqdn.

[OLLY HOLBROOK]

Saint Jack just a quickie, the period of 26's tenure of Kuching was before Bunny

Austin became C O to 66 i.e. Nov. 1963 to their repat starting around June/July

1964 .Mr Austin became CO in about March 1964 I believe.

Olly

[OLLY HOLBROOK]

The aircraft fire, shown was a most inauspicious occasion,fortunate to relate

I was not present having departed for Kuching to dig monny drains and set up tents

and other most exhillerating exercises.However I understand it decicided to try

barbecuing itself in front of the A.O.C.

regards Olly

[OLLY HOLBROOK]

I cannot take all the credit for those photos BEagle they belong to various blokes who were on 26 in Borneo,The site was set up(well actually that's ongoing) by my granddaughter

olly

[brakedwell]

Here are some YouTube clips of a 26 Sqn Belvedere, 84 Beverleys and Tin Pins at Thumeir in the Radfan. I shot them over Christmas 1964

YouTube - ‪Thumier Two‬‎ (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UtDU3n49E8A&feature=related)

YouTube - ‪Thumier One‬‎ (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y9CA1HaZ3yc)

Later in my tour on 105 I was approaching Khormaksar in an Argosy when we saw a big flash in the darkening sky. Sadly it was a Belvedere, exploding after an engine shed a turbine blade, which entered the avpin tank

[Echo 5]

brakedwell,

Thanks for the memories of Thumier aka Habilayn. Served with some great guys there and believe it or not had a great time.

Regards,

E5

[pzu]

Apologies for the intrusion, but some may find this link interesting - especially round 2.50min in

http://www.bpadenkids.com/output2/Landingstrip.html


PZU - Out of africa (Retd)

[Saint Jack]

OLLY: Thanks for the info. My time with 66 Sqdn. was spent entirely at Seletar although there were many detachments into what is now West Malaysia. It always appeared that the 66 Sqdn. detachment at Labuan was a fully autonomous unit as neither helicopters, aircrew or groundcrew had any rotation schedule.

'Bunny' Austin was my first CO and then sometime in 1966 he was replaced by Peter Grey. The two couldn't have been more different, Austin was outgoing and forthright while Grey was very quiet spoken and impeccably polite. In fact, I've often thought that 'Bunny' Austin and Alan Bristow had very similar personalities. By the way, is this Peter Grey that same person who does helicopter flight tests for Flight International?

Finally, what is about this ungainly helicopter with its rather checkered record that keeps people coming back to it?

[Senior Pilot]

Another film clip, maybe a company promotional production?

EvMHGscxvhc

[OLLY HOLBROOK]

OD,
you have the answer,if you go to the 26 sqdn site look in DOCUMENTS

26 Squadron Far Eastern Air Force (http://www.feaf-26sqdn-pix.co.uk/GalleryPage.php)

the last in the first row should be scan 0022.jpg.This is taken from 66sqdn's 540

dated June 1964.Need I say more.:8lly