Ascent recruiting King Air aircrew [Archive]

BEagle

7th Jul 2010, 14:06

Knowledge and Experience

Essential
• Current Class 1 medical;
• 2000+ hours PIC, 500+ hours PIC on twin turboprop aircraft;
• Previous military flying experience;
• Previous experience flying in the UK Low Flying System;
• Previous ‘single pilot’ experience;
• Speak fluent English;
• ATPL with current IR;
• Competent in the use of MS Office Applications

Person Specification

• Strong team player;
• Strong oral and written communicator;
• Ability to build internal and external relationships;
• Ability to work with minimal supervision;
• Ability to communicate with customers, peers and senior management;
• Strong work ethic.

Form an orderly queue to deepest, darkest Cornwall if you have all those essential qualifications and are prepared to be employed for an unknown salary with unknown Ts&Cs.....

Might suit a few Cornwall-based ex-Jetstream pilots who also have an ATPL with current IR, perhaps.

Both of them....:uhoh:

But after they move on?

As has always been the question put to the MFTS people, "Where will you get your QFIs from in 10 years time?"

Tallsar

7th Jul 2010, 14:58

The company called Ascent is the Joint Venture company between Lockheed and VT contracted by the MoD to deliver all military flying training (MFTS) under a PFI. They will in due course be contracting all the various elements that constitute such training, of which the joint service multi-engine front and rear crew (at Culdrose) is just one (major) contract.

Cheers
:ugh::)

vecvechookattack

7th Jul 2010, 16:14

These are not QFI's ....they are just looking for Pilots to fly the King Air....

They will get them from 750 NAS

Tlam999

7th Jul 2010, 20:00

BEags is right. Will Ascent not have a problem here in a few years' time? i.e. "Lt Bloggs leaves after 16 yrs, swaps his Culdrose RN pass for a Culdrose civvy pass, comes back to the same job the following Monday flying King Air but for £10,000pa less than last weeks salary (he's now got his £1000 per month pension to bridge the gap) and calls himself Mr Bloggs. Kids are in a local school, Mrs Bloggs has a steady job, mortgage is virtually paid off" - smashing.

When Bloggs doesn't want the job with Ascent, however, the job ad reads something like this, does it not?: "Wanted: Twin Turboprop qualified pilot with xxx hrs etc., in far-flung part of the country, in a base miles from anywhere, where a 1-bed pit sets you back £350,000. Pay grade is aimed at ex-military types with a pension to give them a descent quality of life - so if you've no such pension I hope you like living on baked beans and Wotsis".

Surely they're relying on a small number of ex-T2 and T3 (do they still exist?) to go civvy and stay on in same job/different uniform...

Al-Berr

7th Jul 2010, 20:47

Points 1, 3 and 6 of the personal specification rules out 90% of 45(R) Sqn staff anyway........ :}

vecvechookattack

7th Jul 2010, 20:48

Surely they're relying on a small number of ex-T2 and T3 (do they still exist?) to go civvy and stay on in same job/different uniform...

It would never happen. There are far too many pilots all clawing for far too few jobs in SW Cornwall.... Jobs on 750 NAS are like Rocking horse **** and have been for many years. Its the same with the Hawks on FRADU..... all flown by civilians and all of those jobs have a very long queue at Culdrose main gate waiting for a job to become available

vecvechookattack

8th Jul 2010, 17:41

Totally agree.........So don't employ pilots without any Military experience....employ ex- Military Pilots... simple. You have to bear in mind the change that 750 will undergo once the King Air comes into service. It will be very different to the Jetstream. Remember that we are only buying 4 of them....

RileyDove

8th Jul 2010, 18:51

Are many people going to be leaping for this when with that kind of experience they could be flying out of Luton etc in something that goes to glamourous places???

BEagle

8th Jul 2010, 19:13

Are many people going to be leaping for this when with that kind of experience they could be flying out of Luton etc in something that goes to glamourous places???

From Lutonairpawt.....?? YGBSM!!...:rolleyes:

Given that the advert doesn't even give any idea about salary levels and/or terms and conditions, you have to wonder who would be stupid enough to apply....

By the way, does 'ATPL' mean JAR/FCL ATPL? And what 'current IR' are they looking for - MP or SP? Or doesn't the ex-stacker running this utter shambles even know the difference?

MFTS - it'll all end in tears sooner or later. Hopefully sooner, it deserves to....:mad:

....serves as aircraft commander in accomplishing scheduled and unscheduled flights as required by the flying programme.

Meaning "We reserve the right to screw you about when the wonderful Cornish weather porks up the flypro."

Bolleaux. Such unscheduled flights should require considerable financial compensation.

vecvechookattack

9th Jul 2010, 07:33

You said
"It would never happen. There are far too many pilots all clawing for far too few jobs in SW Cornwall"
No. there aren't.
"Jobs on 750 NAS are like Rocking horse **** and have been for many years"
No, they are not. The SERCO aircrew manager was begging people at one point.
"It will be very different to the Jetstream. Remember that we are only buying 4 of them.... "
The number of aircraft is irrelevant. What is relevent to the number of pilots required is the number of sorties flown per day.

Well, we may have to agree to disagree but only last week I was at 750 and talking to a large Civilian pilot with curly hair (you know who I mean) who told me that he had a folder full of CV's and he was in the enviable position of being able to cherry pick his team. Bearing in mind that when the Sea King disappears there will be a shed load of Cornish based pilots joining the long queue.

The interesting job Spec is that they will be acting as Aircraft Commander.... a role normally reserved for the Observer.

Tlam999

9th Jul 2010, 07:57

Vec: "The interesting job Spec is that they will be acting as Aircraft Commander.... a role normally reserved for the Observer. "

A fair comment if all QOIs were B1/A2 and there was no comms role for the plane. But back in the real world any pilot will need to be capable of taking the role of a/c cdr if the QOI is B2 (plenty of Obs do their first instructional tour on 750) and, of course, when the aircraft is used in the comms role.

vecvechookattack

9th Jul 2010, 07:59

Very true - Good post. Thanks for reminding me.

vecvechookattack

9th Jul 2010, 16:18

and we both know why and we both know what the plan is.

Notwithstanding that, I am sure that 750 NAS will not fold or disband or even struggle to operate because of a lack of pilots.

Trim Stab

9th Jul 2010, 17:24

In fact, he might have mentioned that he doesn't have a job anymore due to the fact that he was made redundant?

Well there you go - why would any experienced pilot relocate to Cornwall, paying relocation costs out of own pocket, resettle kids into school - and then get made redundant after a one or two year contract? The only pilots who will apply (or be interviewed and accepted) for such a job are ex 750 NAS who are already happily settled in the area and have no incentive to move on.

Tlam999

9th Jul 2010, 17:33

LFFC

9th Jul 2010, 19:16

Tlam999,

...and, of course, when the aircraft is used in the comms role.

That's an interesting thought. Will the MFTS King Airs based at Culdrose actually be used in the comms role? I thought MFTS was only a training outfit.

Maybe it's more likely that, if this will be a civilian run organisation, the civilian aircraft captain will have to be the "Aircraft Commander".

vecvechookattack

9th Jul 2010, 20:41

What excatly is your line on this then Vec, and from where are your opinions coming from? Is there there a "long queue forming" down at the Drose or are you now "sure that 750 NAS will not fold or disband or even struggle to operate because of a lack of pilots".

OK, to place my cards on the table. Im a QOI who once worked on 750 NAS and have had a keen and vested interest the UKMFTS. Many people have slagged off the UKMFTS for no other reason other than it exchanges military jobs for civilian jobs. 750 NAS will be one of the first RN Squadrons to embrace UKMFTS.

750 NAS is currently a Naval Air Squadron, Commanded by a serviceman BUT operated by civilians. Civilian Pilots, Civilian engineers and civilian Instructors. So what is going to change ? The Aircraft will change. The Hangar is in the process of changing...the Squadron is being painted....Thats it. Nothing else will change. Other than our students will be provided with some first class training using brand new state of the art aircraft with fantastic training opportunities and that is what UKMFTS is about.

Tlam999

10th Jul 2010, 12:05

LFFC:
Quote:
...and, of course, when the aircraft is used in the comms role.
That's an interesting thought. Will the MFTS King Airs based at Culdrose actually be used in the comms role? I thought MFTS was only a training outfit.

Maybe it's more likely that, if this will be a civilian run organisation, the civilian aircraft captain will have to be the "Aircraft Commander".

I'm pretty sure that whatever it says on paper, the temptation to use shiny new King Airs as Admiral's Barges will be too strong to resist! Also, a degree of comms use will be inevitable with things such as Compassionates etc.

On your last point, I did hear that the new aircraft will be civvy maintained/owned/flown but with military registrations... whether that changes things... Naval Aviation Orders do state, however, that the QOI is to be a/c cdr in all training sorties; and I can't see that changing.

wetdreamdriver

10th Jul 2010, 17:54

Other than our students will be provided with some first class training using brand new state of the art aircraft with fantastic training opportunities and that is what UKMFTS is about.

Oh dear vec, you are out of the loop - the only state of the art thing about MFTS will be the aircraft. From what Ive heard, a line p or n with no instructional experience could put a better training programme together than the shower at Ascent!:*

Anyway I didn't think any pilots on 750 had ATPLs so they won't get jobs? And the comms role was killed off by CDS when he killed Heron Flight!

WDD

wetdreamdriver

11th Jul 2010, 09:10

Silly me - I forgot the MOD doesn't procure anything state of the art! The KA is a 1969 design - nearly as old as the Jetstream!:ugh:

wdd

vecvechookattack

11th Jul 2010, 09:45

Silly me - I forgot the MOD doesn't procure anything state of the art! The KA is a 1969 design - nearly as old as the Jetstream!

Now that did make me laugh... Very True and very funny...:ok:

Lima Juliet

11th Jul 2010, 17:34

You see, where the BAES went wrong was not making a "iJetstream or Jetsream-i". It seems by just putting an "i" in the title these days and "hey presto" it's bang up to date!

Beechcraft King Air 350i Turboprop: Overview (http://www.hawkerbeechcraft.com/beechcraft/king_air_350i/)

sargs

12th Jul 2010, 05:31

Okay what is a QOI?

I think it's actually QOi - it's a bang up to date QO

BEagle

12th Jul 2010, 07:22

Qualified Looker Learner - i.e. one who instructs Observers.

Lima Juliet

12th Jul 2010, 20:20

In the world of Business and Finance a QOI is a Questionable Outside Investor!!! :uhoh:

BEagle

12th Jul 2010, 22:01

Harsh, Kreuger Flap, harsh.....

...but fair.

Uncle Ginsters

13th Jul 2010, 15:57

Many people have slagged off the UKMFTS for no other reason other than it exchanges military jobs for civilian jobs.

So isn't that a valid point in itself then? Where once there was a post for Servicemen, now there isn't.

In these times with little easing of Op Tempo in sight, what's wrong with a post that our folk can relax a little and see their families' for a tour? There is no doubt that this has already had an effect in the RAF with the numbers of posts available for QFIs being reduced (though not for the same reason).

What happens after the last generation of ex-Service instructors retire - will the through-and-through civvy instructor be able to offer the same product? We will, no doubt, find out in due course.:ugh:

BEagle

13th Jul 2010, 16:19

What happens after the last generation of ex-Service instructors retire - will the through-and-through civvy instructor be able to offer the same product? We will, no doubt, find out in due course.:ugh:

By which time it'll be too late to do anything about it.....:mad:

There won't be any money to repair the damage; neither will there be sufficient people to train as QFIs by the remnants of CFS once this whole sad, sorry mess collapses in on itself.

Fatty

15th Jul 2010, 08:29

Does Anybody know what Ascent plan to pay?

Are they expecting you to rely on your pension?

Ta.

Fatty.

BEagle

15th Jul 2010, 10:33

Rule No. 1 is never seek employment from someone expecting you to 'top up' your Service pension with their salary!

For pilots, they will need to compete with the salary scale and Ts&Cs for a line captain with airlines such as flybe or Eastern Airlines at the very least.

If they cannot match them, WALK AWAY!!

cornish-stormrider

15th Jul 2010, 11:06

Wise words Beags. Now if you can just get them to offer a half decent salary...

Trim Stab

16th Jul 2010, 12:28

For pilots, they will need to compete with the salary scale and Ts&Cs for a line captain with airlines such as flybe or Eastern Airlines at the very least.

Why should they need to pay any more than (say) Cobham pay their King Air pilots?

Chicken Leg

16th Jul 2010, 18:48

For pilots, they will need to compete with the salary scale and Ts&Cs for a line captain with airlines such as flybe or Eastern Airlines at the very least.

Rubbish! Why would they be required to do that? Because the pilot job market is so competitive in the UK right now? Because pilots are so difficult to find?

By your argument, Flyby and Eastern would have to compete with BA and Virgin at the very least?

BEagle

16th Jul 2010, 19:02

Bolleaux!

flybe and Eastern effectively define the basic market rate for twin turboprop aviation. There's no reason why some mercenary MFTS organisation should attempt to undercut that rate - or to offer lower Ts and Cs - just because they think that ex-military pilots will fall over themselves in a headlong rush to top up their pensions with a low salary.

In any case, they will have factored pilot salaries into their business model. If the civilian market picks up in a couple of years and MFTS are not offering a competitive package, they will very soon end up with no pilots at all.

Oh dear, what a pity, never mind.....:hmm:

wetdreamdriver

16th Jul 2010, 19:47

Trouble is BEagle is that not everyone wants to strap an airliner to their backsides and go from A to B and back again 3 times a day without touching the controls! At least in the contracted mil jobs, you get to fly the a/c on a variety of different profiles with a different baby looker to beast each time.

variety is the spice of life! - its not all about salary! And I bet at Ascent, you won't have any Sh1t secondary duties!

WDD

Trim Stab

16th Jul 2010, 20:14

just because they think that ex-military pilots will fall over themselves in a headlong rush to top up their pensions with a low salary.

What makes you think that ex-mil pilots should measure their worth against the salary levels of experienced airline pilots? Ex-mil pilots generally have relatively little experience that is relevant to the airline business, often a bit of an inflated opinion regarding their capabilities (standing by to be flamed, which will prove my point..), and are competing against experienced civ pilots with considerably more relevant experience of civ ops, and an established track record of putting up with endemic job insecurity, unsociable constantly changing rostas, constant bull**** from the beancounters etc.

And as WDD pointed out, there are horses for courses, and some ex-mil pilots may simply prefer to fly with Ascent within their comfort zone than go into civ flying with its own panoply of stresses and general crap.

Uncle Ginsters

16th Jul 2010, 20:43

an established track record of putting up with endemic job insecurity, unsociable constantly changing rostas, constant bull**** from the beancounters etc.

Sorry TS - was that the Military or Civil side you were talking about there?:confused:

Without biting to your obvious hook, i think there are many in the 2 Gp empire that would beg to differ with several of your comments above...

6Z3

16th Jul 2010, 21:00

Half a bottle speaking; seems to me that Descent would have been a more appropriate handle?

Lima Juliet

16th Jul 2010, 21:19

I hear that the Virgin "pilot holding pool" is starting to open and also a Kemble based operation is looking for KA pilots.

So I hope Ascent aren't relying on the recent state of the market ;-)

Chicken Leg

17th Jul 2010, 10:53

Flybe and Eastern effectively define the basic market rate for twin turboprop aviation

Are you serious? Are you really comparing say, a six year Q400 skipper to a recently recruited KA350 pilot?

If the civilian market picks up in a couple of years and MFTS are not offering a competitive package, they will very soon end up with no pilots at all.

How do you know that they're not offering a competitive package? It says somewhere earlier in this thread that Ascent haven't published their T&C's.

It seems to me Beagle, that you have a bit of a chip on the lapel over something - you weren't refused a position with Ascent, were you?

I'm an ex military, KA pilot. I would love to kid myself that my quals and experience are worth £70k pa for a UK position....... sadly they're not. Neither can I convince myself that a KA should be compared to a Q400 or maybe a C130, just because they've got props!

I think you sometimes let your bitterness stand in the way of sensible reason Beagle!

BEagle

17th Jul 2010, 11:54

.....you weren't refused a position with Ascent, were you?

Nope.

I'm an ex military, KA pilot. I would love to kid myself that my quals and experience are worth £70k pa for a UK position....... sadly they're not. Neither can I convince myself that a KA should be compared to a Q400 or maybe a C130, just because they've got props!

Your 'quals and experience' are worth no less than whatever the equivalent rate is in the military right now, plus BUPA, Denplan etc. Or whatever an airline would pay a basic line turboprop captain.

The only chip I have is with the whole notion of MFTS - the whole concept is tosh. If the contractors manage to make a profit, but not at their employees' expense, then fine. But I suspect that even in the medium term the overall cost to the MoD will be greater than the cost of 'normal' military flying training would have been.

Trim Stab

17th Jul 2010, 12:18

Your 'quals and experience' are worth no less than whatever the equivalent rate is in the military right now, plus BUPA, Denplan etc. Or whatever an airline would pay a basic line turboprop captain.

I disagree - the rate for a King Air captain is set by the market, not by comparison to military salaries, and it is not related to what airlines would pay a turboprop captain. Pay on King Air is generally quite poor - I know of captains on about £25k per annum, and certainly no BUPA etc.

The only chip I have is with the whole notion of MFTS - the whole concept is tosh. If the contractors manage to make a profit, but not at their employees' expense, then fine. But I suspect that even in the medium term the overall cost to the MoD will be greater than the cost of 'normal' military flying training would have been.

I agree with you there. The ghastly management consultants who think up these ridiculous ideas mistakenly assume that everybody is motivated by money (because that is their only motivation), and do not understand that many people work for the satisfaction and pride in being part of a respected organisation. When they come up with their smarty-pants schemes to "save money" by sub-contracting to the lowest bidder both pride and standards disappear. MOD/MFTS is just one example - just about every profession has been wrecked by these idiotic schemes.

Chicken Leg

17th Jul 2010, 14:48

Let's not forget why MFTS was dreamt up in the first place. MFTS as a concept was meant to remove the sometimes ridiculous holds between different phases of training. It was also meant to drag training and the delivery of, into the 21st century - using modern media and technology to support training in modern 'glass' cockpits and workstations. It was also meant to remove certain aspects of courses being taught more than once, due to courses being delivered in different locations, by different agencies.

In other words, modernise and make more efficient.

Will it work? Dunno - I guess we'll see! Will it be cheaper? Probably not! Does that matter if it's better? Probably not.

Tallsar

17th Jul 2010, 15:04

There is absolutley no doubt that MFTS will cost MoD more in the longer term than a conventional procurement solution would have done. It is the same with all PFIs - and a matter of public record (if you look in the right places).
That said, the main reason, above all else, that MoD has gone into these things is the immediate lack of in year cash when the ac and systems needed replacing.......and given what is happening now in national financial matters, it ain't got any better.......so it becomes (sadly) rather irrelevant whether the MFTS system proves better in terms of output quality than a military owned solution....the reality is it is the only game in town.

timzsta

18th Jul 2010, 18:07

Reading with interest as I have an interview soon. Not a military pilot me, but of military background, been a strawberry a few years now.

Will the Ascent partnership prove more expensive to MoD then if it had gone alone? Of course. These companies (Lockheed Martin & Babcock) exist to make profit for their shareholders, so by definition to my mind that has to make it more expensive then if MoD have gone alone. But MoD doesn't have the capital to do it, but the Ascent partnership does - and it has to make a return on its investment and to pay dividend to it's shareholders. You don't have to read to far on Babcocks website to find the "shareholder" word.

Whether it can deliver, different kettle of fish. Be interesting to see what they make of a civilian FI? This is a very different kettle of fish to Instructing at your average flying club. I met some very talented people in my time in the military, but have met some very talented people in flying outside of it.

As for the long term and where they are going to get the Instructors from, that could prove interesting over the next 25 years. The throughput of ex service pilot's will diminish as the services continue to shrink. In the civilian world far fewer people become FI's these days to build experience because that's not what the airline beancounters want. They want young boys & girls, with access to large amounts of cash to pay for a type rating once they have their CPL issued. Look elsewhere on here and you will hear stories now of ex military pilots who could only get into the airlines now if they paid to fly. Not the case as recently as 5 years ago.

If SDR results in 20% cuts in the Defence Budget as some are predicting then where it leaves the whole PPP could be interesting. Be interesting to know what sort of annual throughput of pilot's being trained Ascent based their figures on? Cut it by 20% and can you make that return on the investment?

Finally somebody gave me an indication (a pleasant one) of what the salary might be. My initial re-action was I could get a whole bunch of low hours FI's from around the south east at the moment who would gladly do it for under half of that to put hours in their logbook. Now start scrowling up through my previous paragraphs and applying that thought.....

BEagle

18th Jul 2010, 18:40

As far as Ascent's pilot recruiting is concerned (and these are NOT even QFIs), the following criteria are essential:

Knowledge and Experience

Essential
• Current Class 1 medical;
• 2000+ hours PIC, 500+ hours PIC on twin turboprop aircraft;
• Previous military flying experience;
• Previous experience flying in the UK Low Flying System;
• Previous ‘single pilot’ experience;
• Speak fluent English;
• ATPL with current IR;
• Competent in the use of MS Office Applications

Person Specification

• Strong team player;
• Strong oral and written communicator;
• Ability to build internal and external relationships;
• Ability to work with minimal supervision;
• Ability to communicate with customers, peers and senior management;
• Strong work ethic.

As for Ascent's QFIs, as I understand it, they will have to pass assessment at CFS. If you think that ...a whole bunch of low hours FI's from around the south east at the moment who would gladly do it for under half of that to put hours in their logbook... would ever manage that, I think you're sadly mistaken. Believe me - most civil FIs wouldn't last a day!

However, As for the long term and where they are going to get the Instructors from, that could prove interesting over the next 25 years.

I agree. That is what I've been saying for many years now....:bored:

timzsta

18th Jul 2010, 19:14

Current Class 1 - got one of them
2000hrs + PIC and 500 PIC multi engine turboprop - not got them
Previous military flying experience - not got that
Previous low flying experience - not got that
Previous single pilot experience - got that
Speak English - yes
ATPL with IR - well fATPL with current IR
Competent is MS Office - yes

Interview - yes! But maybe not for what you are thinking!

Maybe I am wasting my petrol? Or maybe finding people with the above is harder then they thought?

BEagle

19th Jul 2010, 10:35

Well, it's not as though there's no competition for experienced pilots elsewhere...... Emirates to recruit 700 pilots in next 18 months (http://www.flightglobal.com/articles/2010/06/03/342734/emirates-to-recruit-700-pilots-in-next-18-months.html)

Maybe all Ascent will have to choose from will be a few low-hours Cessna heroes...:hmm:

500days2do

19th Jul 2010, 10:48

If given the option I'd rather sit on a passenger aircraft going somewhere nice than sit behind a military pilot, with minimum flying hours and some sim time going somewhere s**t.

:sad:

5d2d

timzsta

19th Jul 2010, 11:35

And the flying club I have been working at part time for the last few years used to be one of those that ran RAF Cadetship courses. One of the ex cadets from the club is now flying GR4's. All the instructors were civilians, all were checked each year by CFS.

There are some very talented people in civvy street. The forces are not the preserve of talented and skillfull aviators. A friend of mine started as one of the above instructors, went on to fly Twotters for two seasons with British Antartic Survey. Kind of develops skills in navigation, airmanship and captaincy, the kind of things that need instilling in new entry air crew in the military.

Having looked at Ascent website they are looking to "challenge the status quo". The "most civvy FI's wouldn't last a day" kind of attitude is precisely one of the reasons I left in the first place - the "I've been in the service longer then you so I know better" attitude. Does that attitude still prevail?
If you have that kind of attitude in commercial flying these days you won't pass a CRM course and won't get, let alone last a day on the line.

BEagle

19th Jul 2010, 11:56

The "most civvy FI's wouldn't last a day" kind of attitude...

Actually, that came from a very experienced ex-CFS waterfront bod now working as a FIC examiner. He confided that the average civil FI's' standards were 'shockingly bad'. I was quite surprised by that, but he assured me that it was true.

I'm also reminded of the experienced ex-BSS pilot who, when doing his 'assessment' trip with some civvy contractor, actually had to take control from the 'assessor' so bad were the assessor's flying standards.

The CFS check for safety in teaching air cadets is nothing like the QFI categorisation scheme.

timzsta

19th Jul 2010, 12:20

Were either of them the ex military gentleman who at of an FIE seminar when his opinion that the correct way to recover from a stall was to apply full power and do nothing with the stick was scoffed? Might work in an F3 mate, but in many other types, it won't!

Trim Stab

19th Jul 2010, 20:38

Actually, that came from a very experienced ex-CFS waterfront bod now working as a FIC examiner. He confided that the average civil FI's' standards were 'shockingly bad'. I was quite surprised by that, but he assured me that it was true.

I'm also reminded of the experienced ex-BSS pilot who, when doing his 'assessment' trip with some civvy contractor, actually had to take control from the 'assessor' so bad were the assessor's flying standards.

The CFS check for safety in teaching air cadets is nothing like the QFI categorisation scheme.

Yawn.

You can go on and on with these urban legends. I have heard from a source at Flight Safety that the last person to fail the Citation Mustang type rating course was a former RAF Harrier pilot. I have no idea whether it is true or not, but that is what I was told.

I have also heard from friends who are captains on major airlines that they can always recognise copilots who are ex-mil by their inability to cope with heavy r/t workload, and poor airmanship in a congested controlled airspace. Again, just what I have heard, so don't flame me..

StopStart

19th Jul 2010, 20:55

Wow. Gripping stuff. Unsure of your "don't-flame-me" point other than to reinforce your usual civvy awesome/RAF useless dribble. Good to see you can counter some RAF urban legends with some civvy ones though. Powerful stuff.

:rolleyes:

Lockstock

19th Jul 2010, 21:22

I have heard...

I have no idea whether it is true or not...

I have also heard...

Again, just what I have heard...

Yawn. You couldn't make it up.

Oh, maybe you just have. :zzz:

vecvechookattack

20th Jul 2010, 17:36

I didn't realise that the Ascent pilots would be instructors. I thought that they would be assessed by Trappers at Culdrose. Is that not the case? Will CFS be driving down to Cornwall once a year to assess the Ascent pilots?

timzsta

20th Jul 2010, 20:03

Banter banter banter!

PumpCockMixMags

20th Jul 2010, 23:04

Trim Stab

Why should they need to pay any more than (say) Cobham pay their King Air pilots?

If you need to ask, you really have very little understanding of military Ops.

KA salaries are not always set by market forces, in deed, where KAs are operated by the military (MFTS), the salary will be influenced by location, job complexity and the nature/quality of the pilots required for the task.

Any monkey can fly a KA from A to B but in this instance, the KA will fly from A to B via F, E, D and C and involve elements of mixed profile (high/medium and Low Level) navigation, possibly time on target, maritime surveilance and procedural work. The pilot will have to react to the student observer's needs, the instructor's needs and maintain good situational awareness while chaos occures around him and that aint easy...believe me.

I have a lot of respect for my civilian counterparts who fly the bucket and spade brigade but one should always be careful when comparing the virtues of two very disimilar flying skillsets.

PCMM

Trim Stab

21st Jul 2010, 14:14

KA salaries are not always set by market forces, in deed, where KAs are operated by the military (MFTS), the salary will be influenced by location, job complexity and the nature/quality of the pilots required for the task.

Err, that is what I said earlier in the thread. Ascent will only hire ex-mil pilots, because they will do the job better than a civvy pilot, and Ascent will be able to pay them less because they have a military pension.

Ascent will not need to pay them the same salary that a civvy turboprop captain earns (as Beagle and others claimed) because ex-mil pilots would not be able to walk straight into a captain's job on a civvy turboprop. Nor would a civilian turboprop captain be considered for a job with Ascent - as you say it is the wrong sort of experience.

Ascent will get plenty of takers from ex-mil aircrew who would prefer to fly as captain on an Ascent KA than start as a co-pilot on a civilian fleet.

RAF useless dribble

Just remember to put the gear down more often then;)

StopStart

21st Jul 2010, 18:25

Just remember to put the gear down more often then

A valid point well presented.

Tell you what, if you and your civvy colleagues can remember to fly into mountains/the sea/the undershoot, skid off the runway, run out of fuel, forget to de-ice and fall asleep less often then we'll have a deal :ok:

Trim Stab

21st Jul 2010, 20:28

A valid point well presented.

Tell you what, if you and your civvy colleagues can remember to fly into mountains/the sea/the undershoot, skid off the runway, run out of fuel, forget to de-ice and fall asleep less often then we'll have a deal http://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/smilies/thumbs.gif

I wasn't really winding you up:)

Just making the point that an experienced military turboprop captain would not be able to walk into a civilian turboprop captain's job in today's market not only because the civilian market is so poor, but also because the jobs are very different. The principle difference is in the regulatory responsibility, knowledge and paperwork required, not the standard of flying.