Some of the Few

[SOSL]

Military Aircrew don't always make it back safely do they? I live in Andover, UK, and I took a short-cut home through the church yard this morning and made a note of these inscriptions:

LAC E V Morgan - Wireless Operator/Observer (RAF) - 21 years old - died 16 March 1940
Plt Off I H Acland – Air Observer (RCAF) – 26 – 18 March 1941
Sgt T Jeffries – Wireless Operator/Air Gunner – died aged 20
Flt Sgt W J Stevenson - Wireless Operator/Air Gunner – 22 – 8 April 1942
Sgt R C Hunter - Wireless Operator/Air Gunner (RNZAF) – 27 – 30 March 1942
Sgt M H Vincent - Wireless Operator/Observer – 31 – 8 May 1942
Plt Off R W Papineau – Air Bomber – 26 – 4 August 1943
Flight Cadet S H Millard – 18 years old – died 16 Oct 1918
Flight Cadet F K Foss – 18 years old – died 24 Oct 1918
Lt J F Slavik – died aged 26
2nd Lt J S V R Van der Spuy – 23 years old – died 25 November 1918
Capt M N McLoughlin – 46 years old – died 13 Oct 1943
13779 Member May Alexandra Nutley (WRAF) died 24 August 1918
These are only the ones I could positively identify as aviators or support crew. What stories do you think might lie behind these inscriptions?
How did the flight cadets buy it and what about poor May Alexandra Nutley, whose rank was listed as "Member"?
Capt McLoughlin lived to the ripe old age of 46 - was that lucky?
As far as I can make out only Slavik and Van der Spuy were pilots. Any comments?

[ArthurR]

As far as I can tell, most were flying,But these
As far as I can make out only Slavik and Van der Spuy were pilots. Any comments?
could be army, Lt and capt (not ranks in the airforce), the two flight cadets could possibly be flying training accidents, as for Member May Alexandra Nutley (WRAF), no idea

[November4]

I just see no point n talking about grave stones !!!

It is not about grave stones - it is about the people that are recorded on them.

From the Commonwealth War Graves Commission (http://www.cwgc.org/debt_of_honour.asp?menuid=14) site

Member Mary Alexandria Nutley
Women's Royal Air Force

2nd Lt J S V R Van der Spuy
3rd Training Depot Station, RAF
Son of S. J. v. d. Spuy, of Malmesbury, Cape Province, South Africa.

Capt Marshall Neal McLoughlin
1st Hampshire (Andover) Bn. Home Guard
Son of William James McLoughlin and Edith McLoughlin, of Andover; husband of Kathleen McLoughlin, of Andover. Also served in the 1914-18 war.

Lt John Frederick Slavik
26/05/1918
34th Training Sqdn RAF
Son of John and Anna Slavik, of II, Buckingham Avenue, Poughkeepsie, New York, U.S.A.

[SOSL]

Thanks November4 - I think I'll follow up as far as I can.

mrmrsmith, I suppose you might of missed something.

[DC10RealMan]

I took my 93 year old granny to France for the first time to visit the grave of her brother who was killed in action as a member of the Royal Scots in the Battle of Arras in 1917. In the same military cemetery were all his friends, some of whom she knew in life and she spent hours talking to them and recounting events that they all shared in their young lives.
I also took an elderly friend to the Durnbach military cemetery in Bavaria to visit the graves of all his crew who were killed when their Lancaster bomber was shot down in 1944, my friend managed to bail out before the crash and and was the sole survivor. We were joined in Durnbach by an elderly Austrian man who as a young Luftwaffe nightfighter pilot was the man who shot them down. My friend took the Austrian gentleman to his crews graves and both wept quietly together.
Me?, On both occasions I sat out of the way, wept, and thanked God that I have never had to experience such tragedy and pain.

[SOSL]

What can I say? I know what you mean.

[mrmrsmith]

I guess my posts have gone, cos well live in a demacratic world Mr Moderiater, free speak and all that,

What a sad world we live in

Edit: Freedom of speech does NOT exist on PPRuNe. We act as mods when anyone writes rubbish, abuse or ignores the rules you sign up for when you chose to use PPRuNe.

[mlc]

Can you say that again in English!

[DC10RealMan]

mrmrssmith.

I am not criticising you and in my opinion your post should have been left alone. You refer in your original posting as "just gravestones" but I would suggest that you do not understand what "gravestones" represent. In my grandmothers case the loss of her dearly loved brother affected her and her family for the whole of the 20th Century, 100 years of grief, pain, loss, thoughts of what might have been, what kind of men would he and his friends had grown up to be and to do, for example my grandmothers brother was a talented artist. In the later case that I quoted of the Second World War my friend had a long life scarred by guilt as the sole crew member to survive, after which he married, brought up a family, had a career, became a father, grandfather, and greatgrandfather and yet eaten up with grief and guilt for his lost crew and other friends who died and yet assuaged as an old man by the pilgrimage to Durnbach.
It is not the gravestones that are important it is what they represent.

[November4]

Details on the other names given

532018 LAC Edward Vincent Morgan
45 Sqn RAF
Adopted son of Georgina A. Morgan, of Shepherd's Bush, London.

J/2827 Plt Off Ion Huge Acland
RCAF
Son of John Bevill Acland and Marjorie Acland, of Ganges, Salt Spring Island, British Columbia, Canada.

1381088 Sgt Theodore Jeffries
42 Sqn RAF
Son of Barry Jeffries and Ann Jeffries, of Streatham Hill, London.
22 Sep 1941

R/74695 Flt Sgt William James Stevenson
RCAF
Son of Thomas and Edith Stevenson, of Vancouver, British Columbia, Canada.

403006 Sgt Ronald Crawford Hunter
RNZAF
Son of James Steen Hunter and Hilda Hunter, of Bucklands Beach, Auckland New Zealand.

1181842 Sgt Maurice Howard Vincent
RAFVR
Son of Harry Taylor Vincent and Catherine Sarah Vincent, of Andover. His brother, George Taylor Vincent, also died on service.

151465 Roderic Winston Papineau
16 OTU, RAFVR.


WR Chorley in Vol 7 of Bomber Command Losses says:

Wellington Mk III BJ585 Took off at 2206 from RAF Upper Heyford for a night navigation exercise.Shortly before 0100 the starboard engine lost its oil and the crew requested an immediate priority landing. Whilst trying to do so, control was lost and the came down at 0106 near the airfield at Ramsbury, Wilts.
Crew
Sgt G Wilson – Killed
Sgt PJ Charlier – Killed
Flt Off RW Papineau – Killed
Sgt L Philips – Injured
Sgt SJ Angus - Injured


Son of Owen Frederick and Eleanor Sarah Papineau, of Hampton, Middlesex.

Flt Cdt SH Millard
3rd Training Depot Station, RAF

Flt Cdt FK Foss
43rd Training Depot Station, RAF

[Icare9]

SOSL
Just in case you have the wish or inclination, you can access the list of the 91 CWGC graves in Andover Cemetery. Enter the Name of one into the CWGC Debt of Honour database and when the details come up, click on the Andover Cemetery details highlighted at the bottom.

Then click on the little Cemetery Report bar and it will open up to reveal all those buried there. You can check each for Additional Information, or see if entire crews may be there.

[Jimbo27]

Flt Cdt FK Foss
43rd Training Depot Station, RAF Killed while flying in Sopwith Camel F9632

Flt Cdt SH Millard
3rd Training Depot Station, RAF Killed while flying in Sopwith Camel E7280

Member Mary Alexandria Nutley
Women's Royal Air Force, don't know cause of death, but her unit was No 2 School of Navigation & Bomb Dropping.

Lt J F Slavik, Killed while flying in Sopwith Camel C1638

(Airmen Died in the Great War 1914-1918 - Compiled by Chris Hobson)

[waco]

Great posts all, especially DC-10 man.

They shall not grow old.

I live in Accrington and am planning a visit to the Somme battlefields in October. Just want to see the place where they went over the top....I cannot imagine how they did it. I don't think I could have.

We will remember them all.........allways.

[DC10RealMan]

I attended the funeral of one of my World War II RAF Bomber Command friends recently and was reminded of a quote by General George Patton (I think) and he said at the funeral of some of his soldiers.

"Do not mourn these men, but just thank God that such men lived"


I comfort myself with that thought on a daily basis.

[Red Line Entry]

November 4,

Thanks for digging out the details, it revives dusty names into real people again.

John and Marjorie Acland must have had some sense of humour to name their son 'Ion Huge' - I wonder if they meant 'Ian Hugh' and the vicar couldn't understand their accents?

[Madbob]

About three years ago my father gave me his medals and log books. (He was RAFVR 1940-46.)

They had been kept in a box and seldom had I even seen them worn. On the inside of the box my father had left a note, it reads.....

"To the World he was just a soldier.....to me he was the world".

You can substitute soldier with airman or sailor if you want and I have no idea who my father may have been referring to, as several friends and relations of his did not survive the war. But it I find it very moving especially as it is in my father's handwriting and it obviously was of particular signifigance to him.

MB

[lastgasp]

This might be an appropriate thread to remind ppruners that there are similar graves in churchyards all around the UK - and someone is needed to keep an eye on them.

After contacting CWGC about an issue concerning the solitary military grave in my local churchyard, I was eventually asked if I would care to "adopt" it. I was aware that there are permanent teams maintaining the large military cemeteries, mainly abroad of course, but I learned that CWGC have a major administrative and logistical headache with the hundreds of individual graves scattered in ones and twos in churchyards throughout the UK. With the passage of the generations, these graves are being forgotten and are not visited by relatives. In the end I agreed to "adopt" four other graves in my local area, in churchyards that I regularly drove past, unaware of their presence.

It is not a particularly onerous task. You are simply required to make an annual inspection on behalf of CWGC and every two years give the Portland stone a scrub with a mild biocide solution. That's all. I choose in addition to call in every few weeks to trim back the surrounding vegetation, as two of the churchyards are not regularly mown, - the work of just minutes. In November I also present each one with his poppy cross, my own personal act of remembrance for those who made the ultimate sacrifice that we have managed to evade.

Given the sentiments expressed in this thread, ppruners - in particular the mils - spread all around the country, would be the obvious candidates to consider assisting CWGC by adopting the grave of a brother in arms that, unbeknown to them, they regularly pass by without realising. Anyone willing to do so should contact the UK Area Operations Manager at CWGC.

[SOSL]

Many thanks to you all. I've learn't much more than I expected from this thread.

SOS

[brokenlink]

Thanks for that lastgasp, I did phone the commision a couple of years ago regarding a WW1 grave in the village graveyard and the chap mentioned the bi annual wash but said nothing about adopting the grave. Something I think the ATC Cadets can do.

[endplay]

It used to be that the care of military graves was allocated to nearby units. I know that the Chf Clerk at Spadeadam took the task on personally. I suspect that with the loss of so many units that this particular baby could have been tossed out with the bath water. Does anyone know if it still happens or are my suspicions correct?

[Topsy Turvey]

Endplay - Graves are still maintained. Some units still maintain graves in their locallity but most military graves post 1947 are now maintained under Regional Prime Contract overseen by Defence Estates.

Graves from WW1 and WW2 are looked after by the CWGC.

TT

[Tankertrashnav]

Member Mary Alexandria Nutley
Women's Royal Air Force, don't know cause of death, but her unit was No 2 School of Navigation & Bomb Dropping.




Nothing to back this up but the date suggests one of the quarter million or so British deaths in the 1918 flu epidemic.

[GANNET FAN]

Walking in a street leading into Lower Sloane Street yesterday, I walked past an inscription on a wall. It took a second to filter into a mind in neutral, so I walked back inscription carved into a large stone set in the wall and read of the 74 US Military personel and 3 civilians (I think the numbers are right) that were killed by a V1 Flying Bomb nearby. I forget the date but it just seemed rather incongruous coming across it out of the blue.

I have never seen any other similar memorial in London but perhaps I've never looked.

[November4]

I have never seen any other similar memorial in London but perhaps I've never looked.

I think they "just fade into the background - there are many memorials around London to the vicitms of the air raids.

For example Bethnal Green underground

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2024/2246908182_b15d836dc5.jpg

There are memorial from the First War as well

http://pmsa.cch.kcl.ac.uk/images/nrpUEL/UELTH061a.jpg

This is a photo of the Upper North Street School Memorial (http://www.ideastore.co.uk/en/containers/digital_asset/online_exhibitions_upper_north_street) - this one is poignant to me as my grandmother, although not a pupil at this school, remembered seeing the survivors being pulled from the debris. She said that they were covered in dust and looked yellow. My grandmother would have been 7 at the time.

[Fareastdriver]

IIRC there was another underground station in the city that had a similar disaster. I remember as a child in the fifties there was an deserted station, lit only by a few bulbs, where the trains would slow down and crawl through. I forget the name even though it was still on the walls.

[November4]

Walking in a street leading into Lower Sloane Street yesterday, I walked past an inscription on a wall. It took a second to filter into a mind in neutral, so I walked back inscription carved into a large stone set in the wall and read of the 74 US Military personel and 3 civilians (I think the numbers are right) that were killed by a V1 Flying Bomb nearby. I forget the date but it just seemed rather incongruous coming across it out of the blue.

Gannet Fan, according to "The Blitz, Then and Now"

The second worst V1 incident, and the one causing the most deaths to military personnel (in this case America) was in Chelsea when the US Army billets at Sloane Court received a direct hit. the bomb struck at 07:47 on Monday July 3 [1944] on the building between Turks Row and Royal Hospital Road, the initial report stating 36 service deaths. However the final total reached 64 dead, 50 seriously injured plus 10 civilian deaths.

[Landroger]

Although I didn't see mrmrsmith's deleted post, I take it he had made remarks that suggest gravestones have no interest or value? Or perhaps it was simply talking about them that had no interest - no matter.

I am a Scout Leader in south west London and my ten to fifteen year olds are a cross section of our area. The only event we insist our Scouts attend is the Remembrance Ceremony at our local war memorial and, to be fair, a majority of them turn out. The first time they turn out because we have asked them - they turn out in subsequent years because of something else.

Last January a couple of my fellow Leaders and I, took our four Patrol Leaders - all coming up fourteen and a half at the time - to the area around Ieper (Ypres) to visit various first war locations. That evening they jointly laid a wreath, on behalf of our Group, during the Last Post Ceremony at the Menin Gate. I have to say I was very proud of my little gang - freezing in their thin uniforms behind big, strong, roughty-toughty soldiers - who had spent the entire day awed, respectful and even a little tearful at times. We plan to take their successors in October.

They too will remember them.

Roger.

[glad rag]

I didn't see the deleted posts BUT I would be wary of jumping to conclusions too quickly without the benefit of viewing the now moderated evidence, remember this IS someones trainset.

The posts about adoption and taking the youngsters so that they may understand and remember the sacrifices strikes a chord, and I salute those who who are in a position to do so.

[Pom Pax]

Fareastdriver
I remember as a child in the fifties there was an deserted station, lit only by a few bulbs
So do I!
I was told it was "Post Office Station" however it appears to have been renamed "St Paul's" c.1937. As I frequently later used to look for it without success so I suspect it was actually St Paul's temporally closed for refurbishment / repairs. I also remember a gutted station entrance observed from the top of a double decker.
http://www.ltmcollection.org/images/webmax/75/9866875.jpg
View of Newgate Street entrance, 1939

http://www.ltmcollection.org/images/webmax/93/9891193.jpg
Newgate Street entrance showing bomb damage, 1943

My minds image is more gutted that this shows but that may have been after more bombing or immediate post war demolition.

[Union Jack]

I remember as a child in the fifties there was an deserted station, lit only by a few bulbs

As a quick diversion from this evocative thread, a quick Google suggests that London Underground History - Disused Stations on London's Underground (http://underground-history.co.uk/front.php) might help to illuminate the dim bulbs and revive other memories.

Jack

[Vertico]

I live in Accrington and am planning a visit to the Somme battlefields in October. Just want to see the place where they went over the top....I cannot imagine how they did it. I don't think I could have.


I first visited the Somme four years ago (90th anniversary of the start of the battle) and found it a very moving experience. I suggest you start by visiting the Newfoundland Memorial at Beaumont-Hamel. There is a beautifully laid-out exhibition set in reproduction "Newfie" houses, which very clearly sets the scene and tells the story of that first day.

Having got that picture in your mind, then go and look at the actual trenches (still clearly visible) and the ground over which this one-sided "fight" took place. What staggered me was the tiny size of the area in which so many lives were fruitlessly thrown away.

Not far away is the towering Lutyens memorial at Thiepval, visible for miles around. Look at just some of the names recorded on it - over 73,000 of them. Not the toll of the four-month battle - just those who have no known graves.

I came away understanding fully why that was to be "the war to end all wars". Sadly, the fighting still goes on. So long as there are fanatics (Fascists, Communists, Radical Islamists, Real IRA or whatever the label) who seek to overthrow our way of life by force, our guys and gals will continue to be needed in "foreign fields". Sadly, the loss of life will continue. Thankfully, it should never again be on the scale of the carnage of WW1 - and on the Somme in particular.

Do go waco - and tell your friends about it when you come back.

[Wander00]

I have always been interested in WW1, but it was seeing the play "Accrington Pals" that got me interested in the "Pals" battalions. The only other event I can think of with such a devastating effect on a small area of a city was the loss of the Titanic, some 800 of whose crew came I believe from one area of Southampton.

[Pom Pax]

The bar of the "George Inn", Southwark, c. 1960. (Before it became a trendy tourist spot)

Jock (my Father's lunch mate) :-"Tom you known what day it is?"
My Father (a couple or so years younger) :-"Friday"
Jock "The date?"
Father "The 1st of July"
Jock "The Worst day of my Life"
Father "Why?"
Jock "The Somme Tom......terrible.....awful"

The next 2 halves were drunk in silence, then we had Lunch.
Those two probably had been having lunch together 2 or 3 times a week for about 25 years. The subject was never again mentioned.

[Double Zero]

At Dunsfold Aerodrome, Surrey, like everywhere similar there have sadly been many deaths; on one occasion a B-25 Mitchell coming back from a raid had a hung up bomb – the skipper offered the crew the chance to bail out, but they opted to stay with him.

On touchdown it exploded; the aircraft and no doubt other remains had to be dumped into the nearby canal to quickly clear the runway.

A sadly decreasingly small few who were there at the time try to record what they can, but I know of no memorials other than photo’s taken of their surviving comrades with a B-25 in the 1980’s by my boss.

Another 2 complete crews were lost in a wartime collision ( there must have been many such accidents as bomber groups formated & fighters tried to escort, all over the South & East ) over Denne Hill near Horsham, West Sussex; pieces of metal are again still there, but no memorial I as a local know of, probably a brief mention in the local museum.

One should also not forget more recent losses – in my brief 15 years with Bae in mainly the 1980’s, we lost 2 Test Pilots ( Taylor Scott & Jim Hawkins who have small memorials ) and when at the West Freugh test range, 2 bomb disposal & 1 similar range boat skipper were killed…We never learned their names, just a “sorry for the delay” – they were fighting for their country too…

I have been to the mass graves in France for research - awful atmosphere, but I found Braye, Alderney even worse ( same could be said of Jersey's ' hospital tunnels' ) - the nazi's were building up the breakwater, and guess what happened to the slave labour who perished just as the concrete mix needed material ?

I met a surveyor's daughter whose Dad had been involved in finding out why voids were appearing after 50 years...

We don't plan to revisit in a hurry, but please do realise ' young ' idiots like me do appreciate the sacrifices made for our relatively peaceful time.

[waco]

Thanks Vertico

Am presently doing my homework, am halfway through Martin Middlebrook's "First day on the Somme". It is very hard to take it all in really. After that it's on to the the After the Battle book on the Somme.

Our new Doctor's surgery has been named "The Accrington Pals" and has a useful history with photographs posted inside.

If you get a chance try and listen to Mike Hardings recording "The Accrington pals" I think you can listen to it on you tube.

As I said before, I doubt very, very much if I could have made it up the ladder and gone over the top. It is our job however to never forget that they did and make sure that message is passed on to the future generations.

Thanks ever so much for your excellent tips. I will post a report on my return hopefully with photo's.

I'm very much looking forward to it. Normally I spend what spare time I can manage crawling around the the 1,4,5 & 6 group Bomber Command airfields.

I have the planned visit to the Somme down on my list of things to do. After that it's save like crazy and lots of car boots to some how find the money and get to Canada for a trip on the CWH Lancaster !

I'm really lucky where I live, I have a great view down the valley into Accrington. I often stand looking down the valley and think of the lads who went over the top.......what would they think of us now I wonder....Have we let them down ???

[waco]

...........hey all that and I did'nt mention................its 1st July today!

Lads of Lancashire....................

at the going down of the sun

and in the morning

WE WILL REMEMBER THEM.

Smoky town where they were born,
Down in the valley, smoky little streets.
They were pals from childhood days,
Climbing trees and running through the fields.
And they all played together through the turning of the years,
Sharing their laughter, sharing all their fears.
Seasons saw them growing and
Seasons passing turned them round
With the turning, turning, turning years -
The Accrington Pals.

Schooldays' end the lads all went
To work, some spinning, some weaving in the sheds,
On the land or down the pit,
Working hard to earn their daily bread.
And they all went walking up old Pendle Hill,
On Sundays the larks sang high above the dales.
Little Willie Riley played his mandolin and sang,
They were laughing, they were singing then -
The Accrington Pals.

1916 came the call,
"We need more lads to battle with the Hun.
Lads of Lancashire, heed the call,
With God on our side, the battle will soon be won."
So they all came marching to the beating of the drums,
Down from the fields and factories they come,
Smiling at the girls who
Came to see them on their way.
They were marching, marching, marching away -
The Accrington Pals.

Blue sky shining on a perfect day,
A lark was singing, high above the Somme.
Brothers, pals and fathers lay
Watching that sweet bird sing in the quiet of the dawn.
And they all went walking out towards the howling guns,
Talking and laughing, calmly walking on,
Believing in the lies that
Left them dying in the mud,
And they're lying, lying, lying still -
The Accrington Pals.

Smoky town which heard the news,
Down in the valley, smoky little streets.
Houses quiet and curtains pulled,
All round the town a silent shroud of grief.
And the larks were singing still above old Pendle Hill,
The wind was in the bracken and the sun was shining still.
A lark was singing sweetly as
The evening fell upon the Somme.

(spoken) For Edward Parkinson,
Bobby Henderson, Willie Clegg,
Johnny Molloy, Norman Jones,
Albert Berry, Willie Riley -
(sung) The Accrington Pals.
(drum-roll into brass band arrangement of "The

[Carvair66]

My first post so apologies if this has already appeared on this forum.

One problem was that a news blackout was often imposed during the war on such tragedies, whether due to enemy action or otherwise. As the years went by, witnesses died or moved away and memories receded. People also preferred to forget deeply distressing incidents in their lives.

However, these omissions can be and are being remedied.

This happened only at the end of our road on 30 April 1941. You can still see the oddly 'pruned' fir tree that finally halted the aircraft's progress.

Home page (http://www.wellingtont2905.co.uk/)

[Red Line Entry]

Waco,

It was reading Martin Middlebrooke's book that resulted in me standing on Lochnagar crater's edge in 1986 and meeting a very old chap who told me that he had "got out of my trench over there, walked 50 yards, and got shot there"

Been back numerous times since, and it always has the same haunting effect. The crater itself was bought by a Brit, Richard Dunning in the 70's to protect it. There's a small charity, 'The Friends of Lochnagar' that looks after it

Lochnagar Crater - The Official Site (http://www.lochnagarcrater.org)

[S76Heavy]

Courage is notgoing into battle without fear,
courage is being terrified and still performing one's duty.

We owe so much to those who showed true courage then, and do so now.
While the PC brigade and the revisionists spout their stuff, it is only because of the sacrifices made by those who showed real courage that they are able to do so.

So all those who have a memorial and those who rest in fields or seas unknown,
we will, because we need to, remember them.

Let's not forget that some came back broken, or with scars on their soul, because of what they lived through. It is easy to care for the dead, it is a lot harder to care for the living.

[waco]

S76 Heavy

Well put, well said, excellent

[PLovett]

Reading this thread has reminded me of an article I read in an American flying magazine. The author had visited an airshow where one of the exhibits was a Spitfire and he had been allowed to sit in the cockpit.

While sitting there he reminisced about how many young men had sat in similar cockpits as they winged their way into battle and then it struck him, that for many young men a similar cockpit was the last thing they saw as they died.

I found the article very moving and mentioned it to a doctor who was doing my annual medical examination for my pilots licence. He had been in the RAF during WW2 flying Hurricanes in the Middle East and then Mosquito night fighters later. He went very quiet for a time and then said, "Yes, you were so alone and cannot help". He then told me of hearing one of his comrades calling for help over the radio and not being able to do anything while the man died.

We were both silent for a time and then moved on to more prosaic matters.

[angels]

Balham tube is another place that has a memorial.

http://i686.photobucket.com/albums/vv223/harlickbalham/Balham_tube_plaque_080120.jpg