How to ruin your day

[Gordy]

RMEICPbx3zc

[Hughes500]

That will be lesson 28 in a 300, landing in the tree canopy !

[Two's in]

CFIT -Controlled Flight Into (a) Tree

[Ian Corrigible]

Background story: Two survive helicopter crash in North Carolina (http://www.myfox8.com/news/wghp-story-helicopter-crash-100622,0,6129441.story)

MCDOWELL CO. (WGHP) - Two men survived a helicopter crash Monday afternoon in McDowell County without serious injuries, officials said.

The crash happened near the McDowell/Buncombe County line. The cause of the crash has not been determined.

"We're fine... both of us are fine. Just a couple scratches, that's it," said Chris Dupree, the pilot. "We both know we are very fortunate."

Jean Paul Dame, the passenger on the helicopter, said the kudzu near the crash site may have saved their lives.

"When the blades first hit the kudzu, Chris said 'That's not good'... and then we just hit the ground," said Dame.

The two men then crawled out of the helicopter and climbed 100 feet to use their cell phones and call for help.

The FAA is currently investigating the accident.

I/C

[ShyTorque]

I know how slow these aircraft are but those trees just grew and took 'em by surprise! :E

[Bravo73]

From the youtube page:

LivesMyLife (http://www.youtube.com/user/LivesMyLife) — June 22, 2010 — Helicopter crash in McDowell County, North Carolina - June 21, 2010 -

"According To The Source ,
A helicopter lost power and crashed while a videographer was shooting images of kudzu, an invasive plant species. The thick vines slowed the chopper's descent and allowed the crew to walk away from the accident without serious injury.
While filming aerials of invasive species in the North Carolina forests the helicopter l More..ost power and crashed into the side of the mountain. Kudzu is one of many invasive species and it was the Kudzu that broke and slowed our decent and allowed us to walk away with only minor scratches. Pilot Chris Dupree did an exceptional job of saving our lives while the aircraft lost power. It was like sinking into water, that is how it felt to me as the power was lost"

[[email protected]]

Pilot Chris Dupree did an exceptional job of saving our lives while the aircraft lost power
An exceptional job of crashing the aircraft I think he meant - funny how aircraft in stupid positions always seem to mysteriously lose power before they hit something:ugh:

[fly911]

Loss of Situational Awareness?, (or... you have to be careful around those invasive plant species.)

videographer was shooting images of kudzu, an invasive plant species.

Glad everyone was alright.

[lelebebbel]

It does look like they simply lost ETL and settled into the trees at full throttle.

However, we don't know if that is all that happened. He might have dropped a magneto or had a stuck valve. Good thing that the machine came down upright so we'll surely find out.

[fly911]

From The Kathryn Report -
The pilot, Chris Dupree (right), and his passenger, Jean Paul Dame', walked away from the crash with minor injuries.

http://i135.photobucket.com/albums/q140/fly911/mmn-chopper.jpg

A pair filming a story partially about kudzu found kudzu to be their best friend Monday when the helicopter in which they were riding went down in a patch off Old U.S. 70 just inside McDowell.

The pilot, Chris Dupree, and his passenger, Jean Paul Damé, both of Raleigh, walked away from the crash with just scrapes and bruises, according to John Crockett, a district manager with the U.S. Forest Service.

Dupree works for WNC Aviation and was flying Damé around the region to film footage for a documentary about invasive species. Damé is a director with Firehorse Films.

It was not known at deadline Monday what caused the 10-year-old Schweizer 300CB two-seater chopper to go down.

Investigators with the Federal Aviation Administration will be on the scene Tuesday to examine the crash.

Crockett said someone will secure the site until the FAA arrives, and then WNC Aviation will likely have to hire a contractor to pull the wreckage out.

The chopper went down around 2 p.m. The crash site was located approximately 100 feet down an embankment and about 300 feet below Point Lookout, where emergency crews set up a command post Monday.

There originally appeared to be a fuel leak, but Crockett stated late Monday afternoon that that no longer seemed to be the case. He added that a hazardous materials crew had been called in to double check.

McDowell County Emergency Management Director Terry Young said the 911 center received several calls about the downed copter, including one from the Asheville Airport. MAMA, Memorial Mission’s helicopter, and a chopper from the N.C. Highway Patrol flew over the area and located the wreckage.

On the scene were members of McDowell County Emergency Medical Services, McDowell County Rescue Squad, Old Fort Volunteer Fire Department, McDowell County Emergency Management, U.S. Forest Service, N.C. Highway Patrol and Black Mountain Fire Department.

[fly911]

Chopper pilot: 'I didn't panic'


Chris Dupree is alive today, and he knows he’s fortunate.
Dupree was the one piloting the two-seater helicopter that went down on Old U.S. 70 just inside McDowell Monday afternoon.
“The engine started to sputter,” he said Tuesday, adding that he made some adjustments in an unsuccessful attempt to restart the engine. “I knew we were going down, and I just knew we were going to hit the trees. I selected a good spot, and we landed in the kudzu. I didn’t panic.”
Dupree, who lives in Greenville (http://www2.mcdowellnews.com/topics/types/company/tags/greenville/), S.C. (http://www2.mcdowellnews.com/topics/types/provinceorstate/tags/south-carolina/), works for WNC Aviation out of Asheville (http://www2.mcdowellnews.com/topics/types/city/tags/asheville/). He was flying his passenger, Jean Paul Damé of Raleigh (http://www2.mcdowellnews.com/topics/types/city/tags/raleigh/), around the area to film footage for a documentary about invasive species. Damé is a director (http://www2.mcdowellnews.com/topics/types/position/tags/director/) with Firehorse Films.
Both men crawled from Monday’s crash nearly unscathed. Dupree said Tuesday that they both have some minor cuts and bruises, but a lot of those were gathered when they scaled a 100-foot embankment to reach the road.
The crash site (http://www2.mcdowellnews.com/topics/types/industryterm/tags/crash-site/) was located approximately 300 feet below Point Lookout.
Dupree stated that they passed over the dense patch of kudzu, and Damé requested that he turn around and fly back over it at a slower speed.
“We were only about 30 or 40 feet above the trees,” said the pilot. “We were fortunate. It could have happened when we were 600 feet in the air. … If that had been the case, I wouldn’t be talking to you now.”
Dupree stated that he shouted a long line of expletives once they hit the ground. He called for help, turned everything off and the two climbed from the wreckage. Within minutes, he added, the word had gotten out and there were other helicopters in the area searching for them.
Investigators with the Federal Aviation Administration (http://www2.mcdowellnews.com/topics/types/organization/tags/federal-aviation-administration/) were in McDowell Tuesday examining the crash, but officials have said it will be some time before they release a report.
The pilot (http://www2.mcdowellnews.com/topics/types/position/tags/pilot/) said he didn’t know much about the cleanup process. It’s something WNC Aviation’s insurance company (http://www2.mcdowellnews.com/topics/types/industryterm/tags/insurance/) will handle, he stated.
One thing he does know, though, is that he will be back in the air.
“I refuse to let this deter me from flying,” Dupree stated.


Chopper pilot: 'I didn't panic' | McDowellNews.com (http://www2.mcdowellnews.com/news/2010/jun/22/chopper-pilot-i-didnt-panic-ar-227059/)

[nigelh]

Well done Crab , you never fail to amuse !! I am sure that a man of your calibre would have made a much better job ....but of course you would have been flying a twin wouldnt you ? Just one of those things i guess but it ended as well as you could hope for !!

[pilotmike]

“The engine started to sputter,” he said Tuesday, adding that he made some adjustments in an unsuccessful attempt to restart the engine.
!!! The soundtrack doesn't reveal any 'engine sputtering' - and most certainly no attempts to restart a stopped engine ( - after the similarly imagined adjustments)!

All of this from his self-admitted height of
only about 30 or 40 feet above the trees
It really doesn't all add up.....

[Two's in]

So what's that 'avoid curve' thing I hear so much about? There must be an exception to the laws of Physics for Kudzu filming.

[Gordy]

So what's that 'avoid curve' thing I hear so much about?

Not an "avoid" curve......we call it a "money" curve----tis where most utility companies make their money. In reality, it is a "caution--you better know what you are doing" curve..

[madman1145]

pilotmike

That I noticed as well, but then soundtracks can be faulty ..

Who knows, maybe it was faulty, it is a C-model, so a bit overstressed engine compared to other H269 and Robby's ..

Who knows, in a H269 not having a governor installed, it could be he was paying more attention to his low height over the treetops, maybe without having safespots in sight and got caught in a minor low-RPM situation, not that uncoming in a H269 - if so, now probably descending slowly and instinctly not wanting to descend into the trees, he didn't lower collective a bit to "catch the RPM" again, because he had no room for that, making things worse, now still descending and with low rotor RPM, running out of power and lift - that's my guess on the assumption that I hear a fairly lower engine RPM yet seemly smooth running engine, when it start to settle into the trees even before chopping them up to pieces, but who knows - only NTSB will know when time comes ..

- madman

[Pilot DAR]

Letting alone the "avoid curve", my experience in 300's, while foolishly hovering out of ground effect, taught me that even flying alone, immense amounts of power are used this way.

If two fellows are hovering around on a warm southern day, and lots of attention is being paid to the object of the filming, rather than the power being consumed by the engine, it seems reasonable to expect that the engine might be over taxed. Getting it way too hot, detonating it, sticking or warping valves, and otherwise abusing it, is likely to make it loose power.

Probably not the helicopter's fault, from my point of view...

[newfieboy]

Totally agree Pliot DAR, if your going to putt around in the curve, you;d better be wide awake, 100% focused on what your doing. I spend all my day in it on a longline. If for a minute, I was not fully aware, and situational awareness was lacking by even a %, I would pull out right away.....If you gonna be in there, fly the aircraft, leave the sightseeing to the pax, camera man etc..........:ok:

[nigelh]

So we all agree then ...Pilot error...no need for AAI in this case :ok:

[Devil 49]

Blue Ridge foothills, estimate 2000 MSA and 90 deg F., fast approach...

[fly911]

Looks like (and I'm just speculating) as the helo slows below ETL and OGE, Chris might have run out of left pedal, hence the right turn. Lowering collective to stop the turn possibly produced the settling. But don't go by me. Hell, I'm wrong a good part of the time. Chris Dupree, if you're reading this just remember, you're not the first. Don't beat yourself up too bad if it turns out that you misdiagnosed the power loss situation. There are blue skies ahead.

[mickjoebill]

In the past 24 hours, two accidents involving filming/photography missions :uhoh:



Mickjoebill

[Hughes500]

Looks like the tail rotor hit something first, if you look at one of the frames you see some foliage gett chopped behind the helicopter thus loss of yaw control you then hear the blades hit the tree canopy. However not sure if this was the result rather than the cause. The sound quality is not great but the rotor sounds very slow and the engine beat not fast / loud enough. Mind you I am only going by a c model ( 3500 hours on them)l only have 50 or so hours on b's and cb's if they were flying one of these so could be the rigt sound. Difficult to get low rpm in a C model as the correlator is pretty effective uo 25" not very good in a b model though

[fly911]

21-Jun-10 N247FG Schweizer 269CB McDowell, US-North Carolina | Helihub - the Helicopter Search Engine (http://www.helihub.com/2010/06/21/21-jun-10-n-schweizer-269cb-mcdowell-us-north-carolina/)

Helicopter Pilot Program (http://www.wncaviation.com/WNC_Aviation/Helicopter_Pilot_Program_.html)

[Hughes500]

fly911

Thank you for that shoots me down nicely !! So how about down wind, too slow, loss of translational lift and run out of power into tree canopy

[fly911]

NTSB Identification: ERA10LA323
14 CFR Part 91: General Aviation
Accident occurred Monday, June 21, 2010 in Ashville, NC
Aircraft: SCHWEIZER 269C-1, registration: N247FG
Injuries: 2 Uninjured.
ERA10LA323 (http://ntsb.gov/ntsb/brief.asp?ev_id=20100622X00654&key=1)

http://i135.photobucket.com/albums/q140/fly911/schweizer-300cb.jpg

On June 21, 2010, at 1400 eastern daylight time, a Schweizer 269C-1 helicopter, N247FG, was substantially damaged when it impacted terrain following a loss of engine power in Asheville, North Carolina. The certificated commercial pilot and passenger were not injured. Visual meteorological conditions prevailed and no flight plan was filed for the local flight which originated at the Asheville Regional Airport (AVL). The photo flight was conducted under the provisions of Title 14 Code of Federal Regulations Part 91.

The purpose of the flight was for the passenger to film footage for a U.S. Forest Service documentary, specifically capturing the local “kudzu,” an invasive plant species.

According to the pilot, they departed AVL around 1045 and flew in the local area, filming, until they needed to refuel. The pilot then landed at Foothills Regional Airport (MRN), Morganton, North Carolina. The helicopter was fueled with 19 gallons of fuel, filling the fuel tanks to 25 gallons of total fuel. The pilot then departed MRN and flew back toward AVL. After about 20 minutes, the passenger spotted an area of “kudzu” he wanted to film. The pilot performed a 360-degree turn and approached the area “straight and level between 30-40 knots to maintain translational lift.” As the helicopter was abeam the “kudzu” the pilot heard a pitch change in the engine and noted that the engine/rotor rpm was “in the bottom of the green,” and dropping lower. The helicopter was also descending into the trees. The pilot lowered the collective slightly and increased the throttle “to get the rpm back,” however the helicopter continued to descend. The engine continued to run, but it was “bogging down.” Shortly after, the helicopter impacted the “kudzu,” and rolled to the left.

Examination of the airplane by a Federal Aviation Administration (FAA) inspector revealed the main rotor blades sustained substantial damage. The helicopter and engine were removed from the accident site and transported to a secure facility for further examination.

The pilot held a commercial pilot certificate and a flight instructor certificate with ratings for rotorcraft-helicopter and instrument helicopter. His most recent FAA second-class medical certificate was issued on November 19, 2007. At that time he reported 200 hours of total flight experience.

The weather reported at AVL, at 1354, included wind from 190 degrees at 5 knots, 10 miles visibility, clear skies, temperature 29 degrees C, dew point 17 degrees C and altimeter setting 30.19 inches mercury.

[Gordy]

According to the report:

His most recent FAA second-class medical certificate was issued on November 19, 2007.

Looks like this pilot has some explaining to do---commercial operations with an out of date second class medical.....

[darrenphughes]

Even though you can flight instruct using the privileges of a third class medical cert(which is what he was down to with a second class that old), flight instructors need to remember that second class medical privileges are needed to do the other kinds of operations that come hand in hand with working at a flight school such as photo flights, golf ball drops, and candy drops, etc....

It's best to just renew the second class every year while flight instructing. If only just to have it for the off chance that you might find yourself suddenly with the chance of getting you're first proper commercial turbine job. It's not like it's crazy expensive.

[fly911]

Of course each of us are responsible for keeping our medical up to date. No argument there, but how many employers also insure that its pilots have a valid medical? Out of four of my employers, none ever sent me a reminder and only three required that a current medical be kept on file. Depending upon their Ops manual, the employer may be in violation as well. Actually more than likely unless operating public aircraft in the U.S. One of my old company's pilots was fired for flying without a valid medical. (One flight) Some say it wasn't fair. I'm not too sure about that.

[Gordy]

Even though you can flight instruct using the privileges of a third class medical cert

The way I read the rules you can NOT for compensation or hire---as in he instructs for free.

Also, EVERY company I work for has kept a medical on file for all pilots. I have a "status" board on the wall in my office showing the expiration date of all my pilots medicals, 135 rides due, carding rides due etc.

I cannot even comprehend why a professional pilot would let their medical privileges expire...except for medical reasons...

[Raptor_]

Even though you can flight instruct using the privileges of a third class medical cert
The way I read the rules you can NOT for compensation or hire---as in he instructs for free.

Also, EVERY company I work for has kept a medical on file for all pilots. I have a "status" board on the wall in my office showing the expiration date of all my pilots medicals, 135 rides due, carding rides due etc.

I cannot even comprehend why a professional pilot would let their medical privileges expire...except for medical reasons...Yes you can. You can do all kinds of instruction with a 3rd class medical and get paid big bucks. The reason is that your´re being paid to be a _teacher/instructor_ and not a _pilot_. You do however need the 3rd class to be and act as PIC.

If you are instructing pilots who already hold a rating, e.g. instrument, commercial, atp, cfi etc. you don´t even need a medical at all if you´re not acting as or logging PIC. As long as your student is rated in category, class and make and model as needed, he/she can be PIC and hence you don´t need a medical.

Just to back up my statements; read this AOPA article for further information :)
AOPA Online: Instructor Reports (http://www.aopa.org/asf/publications/inst_reports2.cfm?article=4674)

[Gordy]

Raptor---you are in correct. I still find it hard to believe that a school would allow an instructor to work there on a third class medical.

And this is still a moot point as on this case the pilot was conducting a photo/video shoot, therefore required to have a second class medical.

[FH1100 Pilot]

Boy, I'll bet the pilot of that 300 is kicking himself, going, "Damn, why didn't I post the question on JustHelicopters as to whether I can do commercial ops on a second-class medical past 24 months?"

[darrenphughes]

Boy, I'll bet the pilot of that 300 is kicking himself, going, "Damn, why didn't I post the question on JustHelicopters as to whether I can do commercial ops on a second-class medical past 24 months?"

As an instructor, not only should he have known, he should be able to teach the finer points of medical certificate privileges. Not to sound like an anal prick about the rules, but there's no room in this industry for wanton disregard for regulations.

Although, as flight instructors we tend only to find out how aggressively the FAA enforce their regs when we move up into the "135 world", and see chief pilots covering every little legal aspect of operations conducted to protect their certificates. I guess this is another argument for why our flight instructors should only get certified after a lot of experience as a commercial pilot in the real world. But that's a completely different topic all together!!

This is not "the rules of the road", this is a serious business where getting busted does not mean you get a fine and couple of points on your license.

Also, Justhelicopters.com is the last place I'd go to for useful information!!:eek:

[fly911]

Expired medical - With 200 hours under his belt, let's hope that's his worse mistake. Aside from the accident, of course. I'm hoping that the insurance doesn't decide to deny the claim because of it.

[hihover]

I'm certain they will refuse any claim if they have the slightest cause. All the insurance policies I've ever seen have wording to the effect that "Any flying must be legal and meet all required regulations". That would include the pilot having a current licence (with appropriate medical).

Could this have been a private flight, for which he was medically current?

[Gordy]

hihover

Could this have been a private flight, for which he was medically current?

Direct from the report:

The purpose of the flight was for the passenger to film footage for a U.S. Forest Service documentary, specifically capturing the local “kudzu,” an invasive plant species.


This would NOT have been a US Forest Service flight, although could have been a USFS contract where the "contractor" is free to use what ever means possible.

[Raptor_]

Raptor---you are in correct. I still find it hard to believe that a school would allow an instructor to work there on a third class medical.

And this is still a moot point as on this case the pilot was conducting a photo/video shoot, therefore required to have a second class medical.Call any FSDO and ask, it is legal. Would a school would hire someone with expired 2nd class or no medical? It´s up to the school I guess, although I doubt they would. But I wasn't referring to the NC accident, just in general. If you own a helicopter and want to instruct in it, you can do so with a 3rd class medical and even no medical if the pilot you are instructing is the PIC, it legal. Is legal always safe and smart? No.

[hihover]

Gordy,

Yep, understand that, however, I'm trying to put the pieces together that would mitigate this pilot carrying out this task without a Class1/Class 2.

I am kind of hoping that this was a couple of buddies trying to do some filming that they would hope to make into a documentary......rather than a 134 and a half flight that went wrong.

tam

[fly911]

If this was a USFS contract, there could be a "Public Use Aircraft" loophole, with emphasis on could, as far as requiring a licensed pilot.
AC 00-1.1
http://rgl.faa.gov/Regulatory_and_Guidance_Library/rgAdvisoryCircular.nsf/0/f13648f3433d1c24862569ba00688e3f/$FILE/AC00.1-1.pdf

[Gordy]

Raptor----yep, what I meant to type was "you are in FACT correct", tis what happens when I try to answer questions quickly.

fly911

If this was a USFS contract, there could be a "Public Use Aircraft" loophole, with emphasis on could, as far as requiring a licensed pilot.
AC 00-1.1

I am well aware of USFS contracting requirements, I am involved in bidding contracts year round, and I fly contracts for the USFS for about 9 months each year. The 300CB is NOT a contracted aircraft.

The only way this could have been a government contract would be if a contract was awarded to say a video company or PR company to produce a video. Then the "company" hired the helicopter independently of the USFS, at which point, it was a commercial flight and the pilot is in violation.

The only other way to justify the third class medical is if the pilot happens to own the video or PR company and the flight was "incidental" to the business of producing the video. Either way, it all sounds suspect to me.

Edited to add:

fly911: Some of the information in the AC you provided is not 100% clear. This AC may be in the process of having to be re-written based upon the Iron 44 crash in which some USFS personnel and contracted personnel died. Some of the findings of the report make for interesting reading, and it is not over yet---there is law suits pending, therefore---watch this space. The term public use has been mis-interpreted for many years, read the regs carefully if you intend to use the "loopholes".

[fly911]

Gordy: The term public use has been mis-interpreted for many years, read the regs carefully if you intend to use the "loopholes".
Uh.....At the present time, I don't intend to use the "Loopholes". However lawyers have been known to squeek every loophole out of a regulation that they can find either to deny a claim or to force the payment of a claim. I forgot to post that disclaimer. In fact, I don't know of any instance where someone conducted a flight intending to use a loophole. Usually if in doubt, you would research the applicable FAR and conduct the flight accordingly. "Loophole" by it's very definition implies to me at least, an after-the-fact attempt to absolve oneself of the responsibility for an unintentional violation. I know that you didn't intend your remarks to be accusatory, and I agree that this Advisory Circular may be outdated. I only meant that someone could try to use it as a loophole, even if it is grasping at straws. The End

[Gordy]

fly911, forgive me, I did not necessarily mean you personally.

The mis-interpretation I was referring to is the definition of "public aircraft" found in FAR 1.1. In order for this flight to have utilised the "public use" clause, he would have to be contracted for "at least 90 consecutive days". There are many people out there who assume that because they get called out on a CWN contract, (call when needed), that they automatically become public use. Not so.

14 CFR FAR Part 1 Sec. 1.1 (http://rgl.faa.gov/Regulatory_and_Guidance_Library/rgFAR.nsf/0/EC31723FFBB7A3FD86257688006177D7?OpenDocument)

Public aircraft means any of the following aircraft when not being used for a commercial purpose or to carry an individual other than a crewmember or qualified non-crewmenber:
(1) An aircraft used only for the United States Government; an aircraft owned by the Government and operated by any person for purposes related to crew training, equipment development, or demonstration; an aircraft owned and operated by the government of a State, the District of Columbia, or a territory or possession of the United States or a political subdivision of one of these governments; or an aircraft exclusively leased for at least 90 continuous days by the government of a State, the District of Columbia, or a territory or possession of the United States or a political subdivision of one of these governments.

[fly911]

Gordy, I may have come back a little too strong on that one. I apologize and no offense taken.

[fly911]

The NTSB full narrative is now available and indicates settling with power was the cause.
ERA10LA323 (http://ntsb.gov/ntsb/brief2.asp?ev_id=20100622X00654&ntsbno=ERA10LA323&akey=1)

[Non-PC Plod]

The report mentions "vortex ring state" in the same sentence as "settling with power".

I know we have had numerous discussions on this forum about whether these two phrases describe the same or different conditions. In this instance from the description of the aircraft sinking very slowly into the trees, this is unlikely to be describing what most of us know and love as VRS. However, it could possibly describe an aircraft which has maxed out on engine power so it is starting to droop Nr and continuing to descend (which I understand can be described as settling with power).
Can the aerodynamic specialists reassure me that I am not way off the mark here?

[lelebebbel]

I'm not an aerodynamics specialist, but I agree anyways...

Whoever wrote that report is probably not familiar with the VRS/SWP thread on pprune :)