View Full Version : Airlines are shooting at themselves with their minimum requirements!


A320rider
20th Jun 2010, 07:05
question:
when an airline ask a pilot to have 500h on type, what wanabe pilots will do?.

answer:
they will look for a P2F training in one of these shitty airlines in east europe.

These airlines in return can lower their price and be in competition with the airlines asking for 500h on type.:eek: (stupid, stupid , stupid!!!)

pretty much it's "if you don't give me a job, I will pay the company next your building, so they can lower their prices , until you go bankrupt!!! ahaha!)

so it doesn't make sens to ask a pilot to come with 500h, when this one will contribute to the destruction of these "picky" airlines.

Why not hire pilots with low experience on type, pay him a lower salary until he get the experience?

each time an airline ask for 500h on type, you have tons of pilots who are ready to pay tickets for customers in one of these pay to play' schemes!...

I don't see any future in this aviation industry as long they continue to spit to our face!



Deano777
20th Jun 2010, 07:29
It's a conspiracy :ok:

wigwag
20th Jun 2010, 09:50
The basic fact is that there is a surplus of qualified pilots out there right now. Every month passes bye, more training schools pump out low hour students.

The low hour guys and girls spilling out of the flight training schools, and some experienced bod's, are either paying for type rating then time on type, because they don't want to wait for the market to improve and have the finances in place, or, don't have the money and have to wait like everyone else.

As long as pilots are willing to pay out cash to airlines to fly, then it won't stop. What employer would ever turn down a qualified person turning up to work not for free but pay? :ugh: None.

I've never heard of cabin crew or even engineers paying money to work.

My dear friend is a director of Manpower recruitment and found it difficult to believe that people pay, NOT work for free, but pay, and when i proved it, she found it hilarious. Not only people pay but also companies are advertising too.

Also gave her an idea to see what other industries would be prepared to have people pay to work.

Pilots are a laughing stock within the aviation industry, and it stinks.

Yes I believe it's wrong, morally wrong, financially wrong, ethically wrong and poses a serious long term cancer to aviation.

If you cannot fly then perhaps seek alternative work, drive a lorry, work in an office, move into industry. Work hard save money, and enjoy life; Then when things move, try again.

Good luck to all, especially wannabees, whichever path you decide to walk.

ww

brother rice
20th Jun 2010, 11:24
Who cares where the person got 500hrs on type from? Much easier to train and get on line than have a low hour cadet go through type rating then 1-2 months line training. Its hard getting a job, if you have spare cash do what ever you can to get on the ladder. I know guys who said they aren't going to pay for anything (out of principle) etc..good luck to them as the rest of us on our flight school course (8 years ago) are shorthaul jet captains or widebody FOs in BA, Virgin etc, and these other guys are still sitting around a flying club hoping to get some time in King Air. You snooze you loose.:=

6000PIC
20th Jun 2010, 12:32
A320Rider , when you have that " magic " 500 hrs , no doubt you`ll be back on this forum saying that all those pilots without these hours don`t deserve a job until they too have reached this esteemed milestone.
... another self-serving comment by an uninformed wannabe , just the kind of statement I expect from a self-centred generation of people who feel entitlement to a jet job as a right , no idea whatsoever of EARNING it.

Serenity
20th Jun 2010, 14:24
A requirement for 500 hrs on type saves the companies money on training and tr's.
The more important question to ask is total time and experience.

After the Colgan crash last year the U.S authorities were looking to implement a plan of more than 1500 hrs before you can fly a passenger/commercial flights.

Did this happen yet??
Would you feel safer with an fo at the controls on 1500+ or 250+ who had 500 on the type rating they just purchased on the way out of flight school???

fastidious bob
20th Jun 2010, 15:22
Paying for a type rating is a means to an end. By paying for a type rating you are accelerating your chances of employment. If you look at it as a business decision, not an emotional one, it kind of makes sense. Many years ago to climb into the flight deck of a Boeing 737 you had to serve an apprenticeship. For example you had to pay for an Instructors Rating (Not cheap), then once qualified you spent the best part of 2 years building hours on a very low salary to qualify for the airlines. If you were lucky you would go straight onto a Jet, however many of my friends had to do time on Turbo props, again earning very little money when compared to their Jet peers. If you take all this into account, the loss of earnings and upheaval, paying for a rating, even hours, to acquire experience does not sound such an unattractive proposition. And if you are clever you could set up a company, register yourself for VAT and claim back the VAT. And the icing on the cake is when you do secure a job you can offset the cost of training against tax and right it off as a directors loan. This could save you thousands of pounds.

That said, I do still feel the Airlines should pay for your training, however, the world is changing fast, and not just in the airline industry. I feel people should not criticise other for taking the pay to fly route. If you sit down and look at it logically the maths does stack up.

Take the moral high ground at you peril!

A320rider
20th Jun 2010, 15:53
Would you feel safer with an fo at the controls on 1500+
i prefer the guy with 1500+ hoursof cessna 172 than 500h of airbus?

why? the reflex are there.I know that a guy with 1500h will push the stick when near stall speed instead to pull all the way nose in the sky and drop like a tomato!

I know low hours guys who still land on opposite runway,or don't want to slow down their plane when controller ask.all these mistakes are avoided with experience.
----

Ok, but what about this companies who cry all the time that competition is too hard,LCC are giving tickets for free....:{

if I go to BA, KLM,Luft, they will make fun of me, and ask me to come back with 500h or more.

So I go see an airline , and I say: "look, I give you money, you hire me, and you can start to give free tickets to your customers, then BA will say BYE BYE to aviation very soon"

another example:
I have a gaz station, and X mart ,which is based only 100 meters aways from my store have decided to give free fuel. Like this, I can not make any money and I have to close my business. Then X mart, sell their fuel at normal price.

I can tell you this is illegal in europe!(you can not sell an item to a lower price than the marchant price) it 's called illegal competition("concurrence deloyale" in french), so why airlines use this system with their P2F schemes? why airlines don't understand the danger of these practices.

what the **** are doing our politicians?:=

then my second question: what will happen when thousand of wanabes will get their 500 on their boeing or Airbus.Do the land a job?, no!!!
Then will airlines will ask for 1000h, 2000h, so again they will have to look for a 1000h P2F scheme.

Then what will happen when they will get thousand of guys with thousand of hours looking for a job? pay again for the 10'0000 h pay to fly scheme?

It seems to me this market is totally screwed for someone like me who want make money of this profession (sorry I meaned Hobby!!!)

yes, when I say to my friends that I have to pay to work, they don't believe me. they all say" no way, you have to be an idiot if you pay to work"

this section of PPrune seems better than the wanabe section.I can not stand these kiddies anymore.

fastidious bob
20th Jun 2010, 16:19
"yes, when I say to my friends that I have to pay to work, they don't believe me. they all say" no way, you have to be an idiot if you pay to work"

A320,

Once again look at this as a business decision. If your friend laughs at you explain to him/her that investing in your career is no different then setting up a business. The average business in the UK will make substantial losses in the first 2 year of trading. Flying is no different.

He will not be laughing for long when you tell him you have the potential to earn 100,000+ PA within 3 years.

Did you know that less than 1% of the UK population earn 100,000 + PA.

potkettleblack
20th Jun 2010, 17:24
100k+ within 3 years? Your not buying into all the Ryanair marketing spin are you?

hollingworthp
20th Jun 2010, 17:42
I can tell you this is illegal in europe!(you can not sell an item to a lower price than the marchant price) it 's called illegal competition("concurrence deloyale" in french), so why airlines use this system with their P2F schemes? why airlines don't understand the danger of these practices.

Maybe in Euro-land this is possibly illegal, but in the UK it is not and often supermarkets have so called 'loss leaders' to attract punters in the hope they stay and buy some normally price stuffed.

fastidious bob
20th Jun 2010, 17:46
100k+ within 3 years? Your not buying into all the Ryanair marketing spin are you?

Nope, just my own personal experience. Not Ryanair.

Squawk7777
20th Jun 2010, 19:18
if I go to BA, KLM,Luft, they will make fun of me, and ask me to come back with 500h or more.

Sorry to be so brutal to you, but you'll never be accepted at LH if you have more than a PPL. You will also have successfully passed the most useless aptitude test called the DLR test. You better hurry, if you're over 30, game's over (at LH).

High Viz Vest
20th Jun 2010, 21:02
Pay for your type ratings and pay for your line training, but when you have and you still can't get a job please don't sit around these forums moaning, it is getting boring.

There are plenty of pilots and no jobs, simple.

Denti
20th Jun 2010, 23:09
Sorry to be so brutal to you, but you'll never be accepted at LH if you have more than a PPL. You will also have successfully passed the most useless aptitude test called the DLR test. You better hurry, if you're over 30, game's over (at LH).

Well, not quite right either. It is true if you want to do your MPL training with Lufthansa, however if you have it allready you still can join after you passed the DLR test. The only lufty company requiring hours though is LH Cargo (1000 hours), the rest takes new-joiners without minimum hours if there is need enough, currently only Germanwings and Cityline.

A320rider
21st Jun 2010, 05:00
He will not be laughing for long when you tell him you have the potential to earn 100,000+ PA within 3 years.

my God I wish it would be true. this is what schools say!why people go to Uni, they could be a pilot and make big megabux in 3 years????

Anyone who come to me, and say they will make 100'000 within 3 year in aviation, I will laugh loud and clear.
after 3 years, all i got , it' s airlines to ask me to pay for line training:ouch:.

I think I will pack up, accept that I lost big money on this JAA training which took me 2 years and do something else.

see you again when you totally broke, and living in a tent with mom and dad!!!
maybe I will bring you some fruits wrapped in one of my bank statement account.:E

just throwing money at problems is NOT the solution.
I am sure than many kiddies would be ready to attack banks or kill their parents just to get their money to pay to play.Most can not do anything, because they are too lazy or too proud of themselves.

this industry became pathetic, full of parasites who will do anything just to get a few hours on a boeing. I am sure some would bent over ready to get it in the big brown by some gay employers. No proudness at all. become a flying whore at all cost...

I am so disgusted by all these kiddo.
the trend is to pay to fly, pay more and more, like on a stall graph, after the stall, there is a line of dots... which mean, you recover or your crash!

regrettably, this market is going to crash (again)after we have exceeded the critical angle of attack,and now we are already in the buffeting zone!

I learned something new today: I can not pay for line training, line training is reserved only if I pay for t/rating in their company...I am going to cry, bouhhhh!:{ they dont want my money!:{

ahahah! that's too much, now they even refuse pilots who pay to fly so many "customers" apply.

" line training is reserved only for our customers who purchased a type rating with us"

Nearly Man
21st Jun 2010, 12:45
'Ohh! What wouldn't I give to be spat at in the face! I sometimes hang awake at night dreaming of being spat at in the face' :}

scratchingthesky
21st Jun 2010, 14:01
Bob

My salary since Flight school

Year 1: 0
Year 2: 8,000 (flight instructor after spending 5 on FI Rating)
Year 3: 9,000 FI
Year 4: 10,000 FI
Year 5: 20,000 Turbo Prop FO
Year 6: ditto
Year 7: ditto
Year 8: 35,000 turbo prop Captain
Year 9: 40,000 turbo Prop Captain
Year 10: 38,000 Jet FO

whilst still owing in excess of 60,000 for my training my first decent salary (20,000 ha ha) did not come until roughly 5 years after completing ATPL at training school, and I had to move 200 miles from home and rent a place to live.

100,000 in 3 years, what planet are you living on? I can only assume you are talking about the middle east

sts

p.s. the drop out rate from my course was about 25% i.e they never got any form of flying job and left the industry and went back to there old careers

potkettleblack
21st Jun 2010, 14:08
The figures don't add up. Most f/o's will need at least 3 years to get the full ATPL. To get 100k and only have a fresh ATPL in your hands is barking mad. To get 100k in the middle east you will need serious time and LHS. You clearly don't get that in 3 years.

If it is true then it will be some niche outfit. Sad fact is that some wannabe will read a comment like that and happily believe it.

scratchingthesky
21st Jun 2010, 14:23
potkettleblack

thats why I posted my 10 year earning/career path as I wanted the wannabees to see the reality, also I was in the Boom years where everyone was supposed to walk straight into a job.

I passed IR 1st time, passed ALL CAA exams 1st Time and acheived a 92% average and this did not help me walk into an airline

sts

ps did I mention I went to Oxford too!

fastidious bob
21st Jun 2010, 15:15
scratchingthesky

Thats my point, please read my post. You entered the flight deck of a jet aircraft the conventional (proper) way, i.e not paying for a type rating. If you had had the foresight to buy a rating, and yes I know its not morally incorrect, you would be sitting in a much better financial position. Also the 100,000 PA is from the moment you have your first jet job, and not from when you start flight school.:rolleyes:

potkettleblack

You can acquire an ATPL much faster than 3 years.

200 hours Out of flight school+900 hours per year
1.5 years approximately (1500 hrs for an ATPL, to include 500 hours jet)


Once again I do not condone the behaviour of most airlines, but the facts are the facts, the airline industry is changing and to be fast tracked into the flight deck of a modern jet you have to pay a premium.

judge11
21st Jun 2010, 15:32
A bit of luck.........you have been blessed! (I'm sure many of us would be interested to know who gave you that first jet job, by the way). Good luck to you but in my experience that is an exceptional career path. I know many first class pilots and operators who have been in the industry for 10 years plus (and plus a lot in some cases) years who have not progressed beyond line training captain.

Right time, right place and a huge amount of luck are massive factors in 'getting on' in this profession. Ability, alas, is way down the list of pre-requisits for progression.

To all the 'newbies' and 'wanabees' looking at Bob's meteoric rise, that is exceptional in my experience. The industry is at rock bottom with little prospect of improvement in the next 18 months to 2 years and the backlog of not only those who have yet to get into an airline but also those with many thousands of hours who have been made unemployed all have to be mopped up, if they're lucky.

fastidious bob
21st Jun 2010, 15:43
Ability, alas, is way down the list of pre-requisits for progression.

Dont quite agree with that statement. The command failure rate was running at around 60% in my last company. This was also at a time when we desperately needed Captains. If you could not show competency in, or out, of the sim you would not make the left hand seat.

My original posts were not intended to lead anyone up the garden path. I just want to make it clear that I would not encourage any Wannabes to go out and purchase a type rating, especially in the current climate, unless you can be sure that upon completion of your training you are guaranteed employment. If not I would wait a least a couple of years to see how things pan out.

Good Luck

Airbus Girl
23rd Jun 2010, 23:50
fastidious bob
Could you put us all out of our misery and tell us which airline pays 95k to a brand new Captain please?
And how many hours did you have when you upgraded?
I know airline requirements have changed over the years, but I don't know of any that upgrade FOs with less than 4000 hours.
Or perhaps you had 4000 hours when you did your course?
Also is it 95k basic, or including flight pay?
Anyway, I wish my airline had Captains starting salary of 95k!!!!!
Although the airline would probably have gone bust already if it did!!!!

Tolan
24th Jun 2010, 00:27
easyJet Captain's salary is around 100k (all in), paid 90% for the first 6 months.

Promotion can generally be after 3000 hours, however this is changing at the moment, so expect it to be longer.

Another note, I do know a few guys who are on 40-50k straight out of flight school.

scratchingthesky
24th Jun 2010, 11:32
Hi Bob


Sorry for the late reply, been away with work.

Thanks for your replies clarifying your 'blessed' rise in the industry.

Alas after OATS I am afraid I could not borrow any more money to 'buy' a type rating. Its possible things could have been very different now if I had but who knows what could have happened and I am certainly not going to lose any sleep over that.

If I had been on the last intake with Thomson I would be out of work now or working on vastly reduced 'summer only contracts' now.

If I had gone to Silverjet, XL or Globespan the same would apply.

Are you still in full time employment as a contractor and still earning 95k p.a?

thanks

fastidious bob
24th Jun 2010, 22:53
As it happens I am earning a little more than 95k, still contracting though.

A320rider
25th Jun 2010, 04:53
95K?, but how much money your wife asked for the divorce(sorry divorces...:E), and how much you pay to your kids to buy their drug:}.

people seem to envy you ( you like to make people jealous?), I don't...you don't represent the pilot community anymore.
you will be the next one to be fired!

skip.rat
25th Jun 2010, 10:02
95k!
- maybe in a couple of years time for me; been flying for 20 years; 14 LHS Jet. I guess the LCCs that have a 'flat' salary scale will necessarily appear to have "higher" headline salaries. However, I don't have to drag the family away to somewhere they don't want to be, the flying is a good mix, and the beer's good over here. Horses for courses, methinks.
The 100k salary is no doubt potentially achieveable in the first 3 years, but you either are going to be very lucky or are likely to be somewhere you don't wanna be, flying with people you would probably rather not, or prostituting yourself to a questionable bunch of @<hidden> in management who spend their spare time pulling the heads off bunny rabbits.

-be careful what you wish for.

1Wingnut
26th Jun 2010, 15:47
I can support Fast Bob, and say this is in fact possible. My progression:

2005 Flight Instructor $18,000 USD
2006 Flight Instructor $24,000 USD
2007 Air Cargo piston twin - turboprop - Falcon 20 $28,000 USD
2008 King Air in ME $115,000 USD
2009 Falcon 2000 in ME $84,000 USD
2010 King Air 350 in ME Housing, Car, Insurance and $108,000 USD
plus soon a Lear 60 XR upgrade.

flash8
2nd Jul 2010, 00:03
a320rider does (through all his rhetorical babblings) have a point. However he does have this compulsion to reiterate his anti P2F crusade very frequently over a long period of time... and articulation may not be his strongest point (nor English I suspect).

p2f IS a cancer that is spreading rapidly, and it will destroy the industry eventually, T&C slowly eroding as we speak.

You want?

737/A320 500hrs - no problem - just show us your 200TT CPL/IR (FAA/JAA or Nigerian... or what the heck...) and give us some dosh.

A330/A340 - no probs - licence, logs and cash please!

LHS 744 - noooo problem - show us your licence*, log books but just as importantly SHOW US** THE MONEY!


I could type another few thousands words on the subject but I'm too tired to even start.

*Nigerian Licences most welcome (as are any dodgy ICAO papers..)
**EagleJet