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fatalbert1
18th Jun 2010, 03:33
I know the previous thread was closed, (probably) due to the inevitable slanging match which ensued after the scheme was announced but I was hoping that we could keep this one for those who have applied and are going through the process.

Im interested to find out how many (if any) guys and girls who applied for the advanced cadetship have heard anything?

Pict
18th Jun 2010, 03:35
Assessments are currently being undertaken.

A friend is going down to Moorabbin this weekend for testing.

Be interesting to see what happens..

Col. Flagg
18th Jun 2010, 03:42
I applied for the ACP and got a call yesterday morning. I am waiting for an email from OAA with details.

The_Pharoah
18th Jun 2010, 05:31
I applied for the ab initio programme about two weeks ago and got the call last Saturday. Was earmarked for 'batch 8' at YMMB for the second round of testing.

My experience is limited to a few hours here and there, but I do have a Class 1 medical and am highly qualified/experienced in another field so maybe that helped. Oh and I have an equivalence cert from NSW for my Year 12 studies (incl maths).

I sent them an email on Wed declining the offer for financial reasons.

Good luck to whoever goes for it.

haileybury777
18th Jun 2010, 05:52
I applied for ACP aswell, still waiting for a call though

JRL89
18th Jun 2010, 08:57
I applied for the ACP and got a call 2 days ago, with just a 1 day interview on the 27th scheduled, however on the website it stated 2 days of testing at OAA to be conducted, has anyone else been told a similar story.

As for the other thread, it was hard to sift through to find the good information for both positive and negatives about the program. I have been in GA for roughly 2 years, and i certainly dont have the experience or knowledge of some. But i would like to hear more opinions of the program, both for and against, deciding what path you take for the next 6 years is certainly not an easy one, and im sure like many like-minded pilots out there, they want to make sure their decision is the right one

fatalbert1
18th Jun 2010, 10:09
I've also been told a one day interview. Anyone received the email yet? Im finding it hard to prepare for as I have no idea what style of interview its going to be. Tech or behavioural questions? Any sim checks?

coast88
18th Jun 2010, 11:01
I have applied for the Ab-initio at OAA, and have my first day aptitude testing on the 23rd June. The 17th was apparently the first day of testing, so if any one has already been through the aptitude testing or interviews, any information would be very much appreciated. Cheers.

The_Pharoah
18th Jun 2010, 12:20
for my testing scheduled for tomorrow, I would have been told at the end of the day whether I was successful in making the interview on Sunday. Maybe there's quite a few applicants hence they have to sort through the results first...makes sense given there's only apparently 70 slots or something.

The official email from OAA is below:

Thank you for your application for the Jetstar Pilot Cadet Programme, we certainly appreciate your interest.

We are pleased to confirm that you have been successful at passing Stage 1 of the selection process and we would like to invite you to attend Stage 2 as detailed below. The selection will be undertaken at Oxford Aviation Academy (OAA):

Day One
Date
19th June 2010
Start:
11:30 hrs
Location
Oxford Aviation Academy
18-24 Northern Ave, Moorabbin Airport, Melbourne, VICTORIA 3194
Melways:87 F3 (near the Direct Factory Outlet (DFO))

Please ensure that you arrive at least 15 minutes prior to your allocated time for registration.

Car parking is available on site

Dress code
Formal
Assessment Fee
All Fees are Non refundable
Paid on Day 1 during Registration by Cash, EFPOS or Credit Card (we only accept Master and Visa Card – 2% surcharge will apply for credit cards )

Day 1: $300
Day 2: $200 (only if successful in Day 1; payable on Day 2)


On arrival, you will be required to register, pay the assessment fee and will be issued with a security pass. This pass must be worn visibly at all times during your selection process.

Day 1 of selection will involve Aptitude testing (duration 3 hours). Refer to the following link for details on the testing involved: OAA Skills Assessment (http://202.59.42.225/au/en/pilot-cadet-program/who-is-oxford/assessment.aspx)

If you are successful at Day 1 (informed by COB on Day 1), you will be required to attend the second round of assessment on Day 2 ,which will involve an interview with the Assessment Panel and Team Activity.

Please bring the following documents with you for the selection:
- Photo identification (ID) either your passport or drivers licence
- Proof of qualifications listed on your application (original and a certified copy)
- Documentation to support any claimed flying experience (ie. log book and PPL)
- 2 passport-sized photograph

Please confirm receipt of this email.

Please let me know if you have any additional questions on [number removed] :}.

I look forward to meeting you at OAA and wish you the very best for the selection.

Thanks

Pharoah

JRL89
18th Jun 2010, 22:57
I can't believe there is a cost involved just for turning up and getting assesed, not to mention travel costs for those that don't live in melbourne, starting to sound a little bit of a raught already. And i hope they dont turn around at the end of a day 1 scheduled interview and so you are required for the next day, especially for those with flights books in and out of melb..

The_Pharoah
19th Jun 2010, 00:15
yes well thats part of the reason I pulled out. All up it would have cost me near $1k if I made it to day two ie. airfares, overnight accom, test fees, lunch/dinner/breakfast, and not to mention YMMB doesn't have much in the way of available public traffic.

And this is BEFORE the $150k! :}

JRL89
19th Jun 2010, 00:19
Pharoh:

Your exactly right, to even do the testing is a big enough commitment to turn candidates away so I don't know what they are getting at, I'm still hanging out for any opinions or thoughts on the ACP.

Track5milefinal
19th Jun 2010, 00:26
At the end of the day its a money making 'scheme'

Good luck to all that undertake this cadetship and i look forward to your future posts :}

You've been warned:=

JRL89
19th Jun 2010, 00:30
Thats exactly what im trying to get at.

So the negatives of the whole process is:

1) No guarantee of positions after the training
2) Bonded for 6 years on a Junior F/O Salary
3) Lack of respect perhaps from other F/O's and Captains that has earnt their place there
4) No say in where you are based etc?
5) Salary sacrificing the already reduced salary to pay off the training costs..

Compared to another few years in GA and earning your spot with a regional carrier on a better salary and more oppurtunity for promotion or command in the future?

das Uber Soldat
19th Jun 2010, 00:34
I was thinking about this ACP scheme. I even put together an application, but never submitted it.

End of the day (and I'm not judging anyone), I simply took offence at the notion of having to pay an employer 500 bucks just to be interviewed. Should I pass their 'standard', to then owe them AUS$65,000 for the privilege of making them money.

To spend the rest of my time there on a B grade payscale. To not start with 'mainline', but to be farmed out to offshore setups. To possibly never be upgraded to a command.

So they can stick their ACP up their arse and ill try to do it the hard way.

JRL89
19th Jun 2010, 00:38
I think I will follow that notion, im lucky enough to have gained employment in the GA industry especially the way its been since the slump..So why give it up for promises in a shiny brochure. The REX scheme is a prime example of how they will take advantage of aspiring airline pilots once again

minger
19th Jun 2010, 00:40
Am I reading this right?

For the Advanced Cadet Program

Cost is $84,895.

J.Star will sponsor 21k of the ground training and in addition will fund the remaining costs of the ACP which you repay over 6 years whilst being bonded to J.Star.

Is that correct?

das Uber Soldat
19th Jun 2010, 00:46
Yes, thats correct.

Blackbird14
19th Jun 2010, 00:54
I've recently completed the first two days of testing for the ab initio course. I am now awaiting a call as to whether I get an interview with Jetstar. I don't know if I'll take the position if it is offered to me. Having said that, the more thought I put in to it, the more I am warming to the idea... To be honest I just want to fly, if I have to endure a poor wage for 6 years so be it! In this day and age its important to keep your options open, so I am exhausting all options in my dream of becoming a pilot.

Good luck to all in the Jetstar pipeline!

SR71

Track5milefinal
19th Jun 2010, 00:56
So a 85K bond over 6 years on a Junior F/O rate of approx 55-60K

Making it a 30K salary for first 6 years???

Can't be right..

JRL89
19th Jun 2010, 00:57
That being said, the pay and conditions are only regarded as a negative when compared to the regulary salaries offered to direct entry F/O's.

It is still an attractive salary compared to that of your first few years in GA, working for peanuts, questionable aircraft and employers. Its the valuable experience i think in GA that will be missed

The_Pharoah
19th Jun 2010, 00:59
put it this way Blackbird...if I were you at your age (assuming no wife/kids) then I'd be there in a flash...6 years and coming out the other end with an A320 endo plus a few thousand hours FO time (maybe even ICUS time)....the world could be your oyster. Being single means you could actually survive alright on that salary. A lot of grads start in the high 40s now which is what you'd be getting after FEE HELP and Jet* deductions.

so go for it.

Pharoah

JRL89
19th Jun 2010, 01:01
the 85k bond, minus the 21k sponsorship fronted by jetstar. so yeh about 64k over 6 years. Takes you down to 45K Gross/ Year, which is basically good GA salary. And its locked for 6 years! 6 Years working through the ranks in GA you would be finding yourself as a FO anyway, on 80K per year, with out a bond of employment or a loan

minger
19th Jun 2010, 02:13
Can anyone actually confirm what the actual salary is?

Blackbird14 - fingers crossed for you. I tend to agree with what you're saying.

Blackbird14
19th Jun 2010, 02:24
Oh on a side note I asked the interviewers about the number of places available in the upcoming Ab Initio program. They are making an allowance for approximately 24 cadets for the August intake, and could not be specific as to when the next course would run. However they were quite vague and stressed that this was an estimation, so I don't think that this approximation holds too much weight.

NewZealand787
19th Jun 2010, 02:26
Is there any way to view the old jetstar forum? There was heaps of into on there and I cant seem to find it...

fatalbert1
19th Jun 2010, 02:56
hey blackbird,

I know its probably diff for the ab guys, but was there anything you could actually prepare for?

Blackbird14
19th Jun 2010, 03:30
@ fatalbert1

hey blackbird,

I know its probably diff for the ab guys, but was there anything you could actually prepare for? On the first day the aptitude testing went for approximately 3 hours. It had a 20 minute mathematics section which included some pythag, speed, distance, time, and other mental arithmetic, it's hard to be specific. There was also a 30 minute physics section, covering basic physics knowledge. I suppose brushing up on your mental arithmetic might help. The second day is impossible to prepare for. Having a basic knowledge of Jetstar would be beneficial.

In all honesty, it's very difficult to prepare for!
Good luck mate!

SR71

eocvictim
19th Jun 2010, 03:43
Regarding the fees, just to clear it up. What is happening to the $154,456 for the ab course, then the $124,456 for the degree and the $30,000 for the endorsement? Fee help only covers $85,062 and the $21,000 from J*.

The site says total a lot yet I don't see an overall total.

If the way I've read it is correct you will owe $202,850 at the end over 6 years. That would mean you walk away with $21,000 each year. I guess you wouldn't worry about tax in that case.

I'm sure I've missed something because there is no one on the planet stupid enough to sign up for the above.

Also has anyone actually been rejected or not received an invite for the first $300 interview? I'll be very interested to see how the percentage of applicants getting to this point... At a guess, 100%?

Blackbird14
19th Jun 2010, 04:13
@ eocvictim

Also has anyone actually been rejected or not received an invite for the first $300 interview? I'll be very interested to see how the percentage of applicants getting to this point... At a guess, 100%? Jetstar have stated that they have received 20 000 online applications. I highly doubt that all of these applicants get through to the next stage. OAA could not physically deal with those numbers. From what I hear, they have had slightly over 200 reach the second stage. Grow up and stop trying to hijack this thread by creating animosity and being cynical. Otherwise this thread will end where the other began...
We are trying to help each other in the application process by passing on information that will aid others in the testing, not by making 'off the cuff' comments.

aussiefan
19th Jun 2010, 04:27
Blackbird,

Just curious, you say you want to keep your options open, yet if you go with the jetstar thing then essentially you have no options for about 6 years?

Curious as to what other options you have tried?

Blackbird14
19th Jun 2010, 04:38
I'm waiting for a call from PSA in Tamworth to go to flight screening for the RAAF. At this stage that and Jetstar are my 2 options. I am also flying sporadically with Melbourne Flight Training at YMMB, although have not had a constant flow of flying due to lack of funds of late.

fatalbert1
19th Jun 2010, 04:41
It had a 20 minute mathematics section which included some pythag, speed, distance, time, and other mental arithmetic, it's hard to be specific. There was also a 30 minute physics section, covering basic physics knowledge.

Thanks mate. Here's to hoping the ACP stuff is different as I haven't touched that stuff in a many many years.

billysmith
19th Jun 2010, 05:28
I would like to retract any previously negative comments about the cadetship. I say good luck to everyone who applies, I think I am just envious. I wish such an opportunity was available 20 yrs ago. I know it is expensive, but no one here is going to sign anything unaware of how much it will cost in the end. And at the end of the day you don't have to stuff around with GA, and you get an airline gig straight off the bat, 6 years is nothing. And more than likely alot of the cadets will have their career with Jetstar.

Good luck to all.

j3pipercub
19th Jun 2010, 05:51
Grow up and stop trying to hijack this thread by creating animosity and being cynical.

Says the newbie who has no idea about an industry he is helping to destroy... Cynical, let's see you guys all jaded after 4 years in the RHS upset you don't have commands. Do I need to grow up too?

You want a Cadet thread? Start one in the wannabe's section, that's what you are.

j3

Bo777
19th Jun 2010, 06:43
Can anyone actually confirm what the actual salary is?

Well it's actually quite simple. After reading a number of posts and doing a bit of research of my own I believe I have the answer. There's been mention of "Blackbirds" and "24 cadets" ... presto there's your answer. Sing a song of Six pence which in today's standard is equivalent to 2.4 pounds (4.1 AUD) and a bag full of rye. Well we all know that rye (grain/whisky) tastes like sh1te. Hence $4.1 and a bag full of sh1te.
All the best to the cadets:ok:

campdoag
19th Jun 2010, 06:48
Post the 89 dispute.... In 1990 an Australian airlines 737 F/O was paid around $100k per annum

20 years later......

2010 Jetstar A320 F/O is paid $88k per annum


I'm too far gone to change careers... but anyone who is seriously considering a career in aviation in this country is an absolute FOOL!!!!

2020.......... Jetstar 787 F/O $66k per annum

Get my drift........... Choose wisely folks

notaplanegeek
19th Jun 2010, 08:22
So you lot who actually have some hours under your belt are you having any joy? Some people said they got the knock off the 'privilege list' because they had too many hours?

eocvictim
19th Jun 2010, 08:26
Regarding the fees, just to clear it up. What is happening to the $154,456 for the ab course, then the $124,456 for the degree and the $30,000 for the endorsement? Fee help only covers $85,062 and the $21,000 from J*.

The site says total a lot yet I don't see an overall total.

If the way I've read it is correct you will owe $202,850 at the end over 6 years. That would mean you walk away with $21,000 each year. I guess you wouldn't worry about tax in that case.

I'm sure I've missed something because there is no one on the planet stupid enough to sign up for the above.

Can anyone confirm or deny this?

If you've applied to this program and are unsure of the above then this is something you NEED to know. :ugh:

Track5milefinal
19th Jun 2010, 08:29
Half of these kids clearly don't know what they're signing up for in the first place!:mad:

mighty_mouse
19th Jun 2010, 08:46
ahaha I was warned about PPruNe.. full of pathetic and disgruntled GA pilots. How about taking your bitching elsewhere and let this thread fulfill its intended purpose: allowing those of us interested in the cadetship to discuss it. There's plenty of other forums for you to moan on. Have a read of the opening post. If you cant understand the concept of a particular discourse, then it's no wonder you cant understand the potential in this cadet program. Start a forum for yourselves and name it "the only thing I hate more than my life is cadetships".

JRL89
19th Jun 2010, 09:09
I have around 800TT and got invited for the interview stage, but have since declined, Im having a good time in the GA industry so im going to stay here and ill get to the airlines eventually, the only think that really attracts me to the airlines is the salary, but i wish luck to all those who are going through with their applications, im sure there will be many ppl waiting for those succesful applicants to tell the real story

KRUSTY 34
19th Jun 2010, 09:24
Hey mighty_mouse, that has to be the "Wind-up" of this thread!

At least I hope it is? :sad:

Mstr Caution
19th Jun 2010, 09:40
Two words of warning:

1. Get a private tax ruling to confirm you can pay the training costs back in pre tax dollars.

2. Always be wary of any organisation or business, where the recruitment department works on weekends.

MC

Magnum007
19th Jun 2010, 09:59
i did the testing on day 1 and was not successful.

Good luck to the guys going through it - it will be a tough process to get through to get in.

But for me thats $1300 down the toilet....in flights, fee for assessment (what other industry charges you to apply for a job????), accom.... and hire car etc

Its a risk that you take but I suppose if you want to have a chance at it you have to go for it.

I think the scheme has merits. but as mentioned above there are a few question marks about the program.

I dont think they would have been too picky on the number of people in stage 2 as when you think about it - its in their interests to have as many as possible pay for the privilige! (why have 50 people pay to sit an assessment when you can get 200!) And they wouldnt have 20000 applications - that is what the CEO said they were anticipating - but you have to be realistic!

Good luck to all and to those who get accepted - certainly a great opportunity!

Track5milefinal
19th Jun 2010, 10:10
Then it's no wonder you cant understand the potential in this cadet program.

:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D

Potential?:yuk:

tsubasa27
19th Jun 2010, 10:20
Doing some very rough figures, I am not an accountant and I'm sure it's a lot more complex then this plus I'm making the FALSE assumption that you can neatly deduct both the loan and FEE-help from gross salary.

FALSE because:

DEEWR
Tax deductibility of repayments

Your repayments of HELP debts are not tax deductible.

If your payer makes repayments for you, they may be able to claim a tax deduction. However, they will be liable for Fringe Benefits Tax (FBT) on the repayments.
The good news is:
Bonus for voluntary repayments

If you make a voluntary repayment of $500 or more, you will receive a bonus of 10% of the repayment you make. Example: Tinka owes $5,250. She makes a $2,500 voluntary repayment. Tinka gets the 10% bonus, so the value of her repayment is now $2,750 ($ 2,500 x 1.10). Tinka’s bonus amount is $2,750 - $2,500 = $250. Her total debt after the payment is reduced to $2,500 ($ 5,250–$ 2,750).
If your total debt is less than $500 and you make a voluntary repayment to pay off the total amount, you will still receive the 10% bonus. Definitely seek some serious financial advice before signing up!

APPFO Course = $124456 = $85062 FEE-HELP + $39394 Loan
A320 Rating = $30000 = $21000 Jetstar + $9000 Loan

Subtotals
$48394 Loans
$16157 Loan interest (10% ??? over 6 years)
$85062 FEE-HELP
$21265 FEE-HELP repayment fee (25%)

Total repayments: $170878
$28480 P/A over 6 years

JFO narrowbody salary = $55454 gross = $26974 after repayments = $23828 net
FOL1 narrowbody salary = $84720 gross = $56240 after repayments = $45818 net
FOL2 narrowbody salary = $92422 gross = $63942 after repayments = $50909 net

I guess the real question is how long it takes to get off JFO and start earning a livable wage?

biggles7374
19th Jun 2010, 10:55
Don't forget that in addition to the 25% "loan fee" the balance of the FEE-HELP debt is increased by the CPI % each year for outstanding balances.

Assuming that the amount repaid to jetstar over the 6 years is taken from gross salary and therefore remaining salary falls beneath the threshold for FEE-HELP repayment, during the initial years the FEE-HELP debt will grow by approx. $97k (ie an additional 12k) assuming no FEE-HELP is repaid in the first 6 years and a CPI of 2.5%.

Consequenty the cashflow will not be as severe as has been suggested.

FEE-HELP will be repaid over a much longer period although the total amount paid will increase significantly.

27/09
19th Jun 2010, 11:08
From what I have read the Jetstar cadetship is a modern version of the Indian Indentureship. I would tread very carefully.

KRUSTY 34
19th Jun 2010, 11:57
You know tsubasa27, those numbers are truely disturbing. It's one thing to slug it out for years in G/A, the low pay, the risks and the general uncertainty of it all. Eventually however one might just make it into a reputable airline, start earning decent money, and finally plan for the future.

It's a completely different thing, at a young age, to mire yourself in debt for a position that not so long ago was considered the end result of all that labour! Now the position is just the beginning, but unfortunately for many it will be the end of the line also. A professional domestic airline pilot earning less than minimum wage, trapped in a position that will garrentee years of financial harship!

Does anyone see the potential for some future psycotic episodes in this? :{

waren9
19th Jun 2010, 12:10
I must go along with KRUSTY on this one.

A big thank you to all future cadets who will consign right seat jet jobs to the bottom of the food chain.

I offer you all the following to think about when you sign yourselves up to years of debt and the devaluing of your own qualifications

If you do not consider a jet job (either seat) as the pinnacle of a sustainable long term mortgage paying and family raising career then what for you guys is?

If you guys forever consign one seat in jets to training wages then you halve the number of guys who have half a chance of respectably raising families and paying mortgages in the capital cities you are forced to live in.

You will be buying yourself a job that ultimately wont be worth having.

JRL89
19th Jun 2010, 23:54
I can see the pride and professionalism one might get from flying a big airliner. But you talk to all the captains of today, and they only do it for their financial benefit and most have their own means of fun outside the airlines (aerobatics etc). GA is the most fun you will have flying, real stick and rudder skills. Completely different skill sets to that of flying a big jet.

Once again im not having a go at any cadets or the people who show interest in this program, merely trying to express a point of view for those who havent experience GA yet but are having their minds made up by a glossy brochure

27/09
20th Jun 2010, 00:14
For those who haven't heard of the Indian Indentureship do a Google search. Here's an extract about it from Wiki answers

This was the arrival of East Indians from India to the Caribbean countries to replace the labour after the end of the Atlantic slave. Many Caribbean countries like Trinidad and Tobago and Guyana are a few of the many Caribbean nations that endure Indian Indentureship. Many of the East Indians were paid for their labour but in very very small amounts. The East Indians were promised a better way of life from the life many had in India but many soon came to the realization that their promised life was only a trap to get them to do the hard work the slaves no longer wanted to do.

For any one considering the cadetship you need to consider why Jetstar is introducing such a scheme.

Cadetships have been used where there has been a lack of pilots to fill the junior ranks of airlines. That situation does not exist in this part of the world. There are plenty of qualified pilots who could work for Jetstar so why do they need to have a cadet scheme?

The only conclusion I can come to, is to have a source of cheaper labour. In other words undermine what the current pilots are being paid.

I would suggest that any prospective cadet look at what the likes of OAA and CTC have done with the UK cadet market. They have flooded that market with pilots with brand new licences who are unable to find a job or at least a proper full time job. They will do the same here, they will need to train more than just the pilots that Jetstar needs in order to sustain their operations. Their focus is on making money, their marketing is very good but they don't tell you the whole story.

I don't have a problem with cadets as such but I do have a real problem with the promoters of the likes of the Jetstar cadet programme and outfits like OAA, CTC etc.

hueyshuffle
20th Jun 2010, 00:15
Despite reservations, I applied for the Advanced Cadet Programme. Rejected because 1)MECIR isn't current & 2) No ATPL subjects.

To qualify, my reservations are almost exactly what the last few posts have said about diluting the industry by allowing newbies straight into the RHS of a jet. However, I figured, 6 relatively expensive years later my career would be set.

Looks like I'm sticking it out in GA. Not too worried really, At least this way there will be a sense of satisfaction on receiving a yes letter 5 years down the track and the knowledge of having earned a RHS.

If it sounds too good to be true - it probably is. Good luck to those who get in, hope it goes well. Just a reminder - this is a CHOICE you are making. This is not the only way into the airlines or into a flying job. And if you can afford the debt associated with the ACP or Ab Initio programme then you can probably afford a CPL and go it your own way.

travelator
20th Jun 2010, 02:09
Be warned kids. As far as I understand it, they will pay ‘junior FO’ rates until the cadet holds an ATPL. I’m sure that those considering this path are aware of the requirements to be issued with an ATPL. For those that aren’t, CAR 1988 5.172 states amongst other things:
1,500 hours flight time of which a minimum MUST be 250 hours command or 500 hours ICUS.

Point 1. 1,500 hours of flight time, as FO you can only count 50% therefore 3,000 hours of total aeronautical experience. Expect at least 3.5 years to achieve this.

Point 2. 250 hours command or 500 hours ICUS. I doubt very much that they will be conducting ICUS operations. Perhaps if you were coming up for a command they may include it as part of your command training.

So expect to be on the JFO salary for more than the 6 years unless you already have the command requirements!

Be very careful about where they will base you also. Don’t expect to be living at home with Mum and Dad in Brisbane waiting for your command, expect to be in Darwin or Singapore or whatever new offshore base they will start in the near future.

The most important point of all, airline flying is incredibly boring 99% of the time. GA days are tough and thankless but some of the most enjoyable and rewarding flying you will ever do. You get to fly into places that very few people get to visit, you get to fly over some spectacular scenery that other people pay for the privilege. You will have life experiences and tales to pass onto your children about things that you did rather than things that the jet did while you watched.

minger
20th Jun 2010, 02:29
How is it a Jetstar fail?

Did you even read the eligibility for the ACP?

No wonder you were knocked back...

KRUSTY 34
20th Jun 2010, 03:42
travelator, have they changed the regs? It was my understanding that of the 250 hours command required for the ATPL, 150 hours can be ICUS. That leaves 100 hours of "pure" command to be filled. Most Cadetships provide for approx 70 hours non ICUS command, so that will leave the applicant, without any previous experience, some 30 hours short!

When you consider the numbers put up by tsubasa27, the cadets in question will be flat out paying their light bill let alone finding the money, or the time for that matter, to go out and fly privately the additional 30 hours?

6 years to a pay rise? Try the prospect of never! :sad:

The Green Goblin
20th Jun 2010, 04:10
IMO the cadet in such a program is really a scab. The flying schools used to be full of them working for free all week for a couple of scab hours being thrown at them for flying at a marginal rate.

Those same Pilots that refuse to leave the eastern suburbs in Mummy and Daddys pad will be all over this. They don't want to move north and have to work for a living! This to them is the dreaded truth of aviation that they would try and avoid at all cost. I met heaps of them in the schools.

I have no problem with cadets in the right program where the airline pays and gives you an SO slot with a career ahead.

This program stinks.

J3, love your work about the wannabes hahahaha cracked me up!

brns2
20th Jun 2010, 04:35
Anyone know what the difference is between doing the ACP with Oxford or CTC?

The Green Goblin
20th Jun 2010, 04:44
Anyone know what the difference is between doing the ACP with Oxford or CTC?

One is for the bros, one is for the mates.

The handcuffs aint gold anymore, they are made of plastic. Cheap, recyclable and painfully tight.

Management must be sitting around drinking cognac reading this thread having a great laugh at Pilots.

Fly-by-Desire
20th Jun 2010, 05:50
What a laugh! :)
I dont see anything wrong with any of the paths really.
If anything, the old way has always seemed to me to be the more 'dodgey' option, throwing a low experience pilot into single pilot ops doing all those scary bush pilot things as apposed to puting them next to a experienced captain flying from one big airport to the next to learn the ropes, which i think is much more aligned to what happens in every other industry.
All this 'buy your job' bull**** peole go on with, what the hell do you think little johnny in grade 1 is doing? his parents are paying for his education just like every other kid in australia has for decades and will until the day johnny graduates as a doctor, lawyer, whatever! Its the way the world turns people, why is it suddenly criminal when you replace 'doctor, lawyer whatever' with 'pilot'? Every one in GA brought their <5700kg endorsment and CPL didnt they? Its the same thing, just a smaller scale.

Pick which way you wanna go, and everyone else have the decency to be nice and respect their decision.

travelator
20th Jun 2010, 06:24
Krusty, not changed I just omitted that option.

5.172 Aeronautical experience: minimum requirements
(1) For the purposes of paragraph 5.165 (1) (f), a person’s
aeronautical experience must consist of at least 1,500 hours of
flight time that includes 750 hours as pilot of a registered
aeroplane, or a recognised aeroplane.
(2) The 750 hours must include:
(a) any of the following:
(i) at least 250 hours of flight time as pilot in command;
(ii) at least 500 hours of flight time as pilot acting in
command under supervision;
(iii) at least 250 hours of flight time, consisting of at least
70 hours of flight time as pilot in command and the
balance as pilot acting in command under
supervision; and
(b) at least 200 hours of cross-country flight time; and
(c) at least 75 hours of instrument flight time; and
(d) at least 100 hours of flight time at night as pilot in
command or as co-pilot.

Therefore the following three scenarios are possible:

1. Cadet has less than 70 hours command time, subsection iii does not apply, therefore 500 hours ICUS is required. (subs ii)

2. Cadet has more than 70 but less than 250 hours command, the balance can be made up of ICUS (max of 180) as per subsection iii.

3. Cadet has more than 250 hours command then they already meet part of the requirement.

I don’t know what the experience levels of those applying are but I would doubt many fall into the third option. Those that would require ICUS, answer me this. Why would Jetstar offer ICUS flying to them? It would mean that these cadets would then have to be paid the same as a qualified FO so why bother having cadets in the first place? You WILL be stuck on this low pay for a very long time.

I don’t want to get into the debate about cadets versus GA (because I am ex GA and therefore biased). I want those that are looking at this scheme to think carefully. Do not be fooled into thinking that the pay will improve, it won’t for a very long time. Don’t be fooled into thinking that you will be living where you want, you will be living where you are told for a very long time. At least if you slog it out in GA, nobody will own your soul and you have control over your career.

waren9
20th Jun 2010, 06:46
Fly by Desire

Have a read of post #51 and see what answers you come up with.

Your comparison with doctors etc is not analogous (sp?), and if you knew more about the industry you would see that.

tsubasa27
20th Jun 2010, 06:59
For all the mud Jetstar are getting over wages, they're by no means the worst out there. Googling yielded:

V Aus
Pre-FO 50000 FO 117500 Captain 179000

Tiger
FO 105000 Captain 175000

Qantas (767, minimum hours)
FO 93600 Captain 169520

J*
Pre-FO 55454 FO 84720 Captain 154037

VB
FO 81150 Captain 151400

ANZ (737, $Kiwi)
Pre-FO 70000 FO 70000 Captain 120000

QLink
FO 51674 Captain 79424

Rex :suspect:
Pre-FO 30847 FO 42271 Captain 69691

Of course the general conditions vary greatly between all of them.

The real issue is the training costs, which you'll pay OAA $87k for instead of the $50k a typical flying school CPL+MECIR would take. The banks and government will take their slice too. The A320 rating training is also pricey compared to others as was pointed out in the other thread.

On the other hand, if you can survive 6 years on a modest income and missing out on all the "fun" up north then at least you'll probably be free to either stay on and look at gaining command in the next few years or having enough experience to start again at the carrier of your choice.

oneflewnorth
20th Jun 2010, 07:26
I'm glad someone brought up the FEE-HELP repayment fees (it's 20%), most have been forgetting that. The scheme seems great in theory and I can't deny I've considered it as well as the Qantas one, but seriously guys, imagine yourself living off 20 to 30k a year in a capital city (if those figures are right) if you're posted in one...rent alone could take up up to half of that at only $200 a week.

Am I right in saying that the figures tsubasa27 came up with also don't take into account HECS debt, or whatever it's called now?
Also, doesn't the FEE-HELP cover the flight training and HECS cover the Associate Degree? So why is this program so much? I just spent 4 years at uni and my debt is only 25k, if that. This scheme is 1.5 years at uni (Associate Degree), so should be quite cheap shouldn't it? Does that mean flight training is...over $140k?? I'm lost.

frigatebird
20th Jun 2010, 07:48
Lets hear your take on doctors as a comparison then waren..! Personally I think that they are mostly overrated and overpaid for what they achieve though their own efforts. At least an experienced Captain makes life and death decisions for up to hundreds of passengers, in real time, during every flight. They should be better paid than the Learner doctors, who need a second opinion, are too busy to see you at the appointed time, or at all if you don't come from their Area (very unionlike towards their fellow doctors), and can never fix a problem on a first visit but keep you coming back for another consultation or referral (with fee paid before you leave please). Individual doctors go on 'strike' in their own way to get what they want in the way of the lifestyle or remuneration they have come to expect (so much for the Hippocratic Oath). At least dentists get on with the job first visit. How often do doctors get their health tested to enable them to keep practicing? How often do they get assessed on their ability ? Young pilots sell themselves short, if they have this mindset now that it's the only way and they should borrow 100 grand to buy the prospect of a career in the airline profession, then accept rubbish remuneration. There was a time when the 'cosy two' airlines pilots used to strike just before Easter and other public holidays to get salary increases, all changed now, but not all because of the workplace economics, most of it is because people roll over and just let themselves be pushed into accepting 'spin'. Noone gets what they deserve, they get what they negotiate. To complain later is to misunderstand the issue.

tsubasa27
20th Jun 2010, 07:55
I'm glad someone brought up the FEE-HELP repayment fees (it's 20%)According to The Going to Uni Homepage (http://www.goingtouni.gov.au/)
On 2 November 2009, the Australian Government announced that, subject to the passage of legislation, the FEE-HELP loan fee will increase from 20 per cent to 25 per cent for undergraduate students enrolled in units of study with a census date on or after 1 July 2010.I believe the Associate Degree is only available as a full-fee paying course under FEE-HELP, not a Commonwealth Supported Place under HECS-HELP. The vast bulk of the program cost goes to OAA for flight training and a bit on the side for theory at Swinny.

You're quite right that you certainly won't be buying a house or renting anything outside the outer suburbs on that income, I think most will need to seriously think about shared houses or moving back in with parents until you're earning the real FO wage.

oneflewnorth
20th Jun 2010, 08:07
Thanks for clarifying all of that tsubasa, the gov site I went to stated 20%.

As for the doctor argument, the last 4 I've been to have diagnosed me via Google haha.

major_tom
20th Jun 2010, 08:37
IMO 27/09, and Green Goblin have pretty much hit the nail on the head :ok:. I think the view of this program by alot of the Ab initio kids, is that they are all wrapped up with the idea that they will be living it up with a splendid salary, big engines, & the glamor of being and airline pilot - without giving it alot of though interms of contract years, and financial matters.

There is nothing wrong with the cadetship, so long as those who apply are also aware of the disadvantages. I also applied for this too and am quite comfortable with all the bullcrap that goes with it. However I have not yet recieved a reply for my application, and frankly I dont mind if I dont get an interview. lol There is nothing wrong with GA, and if I end up in GA for a number of years "so what?" I will be able to work my way up knowing that I have tried to earn a seat in an airline.

As they say "hard work never hurt anyone"

Congrats to those who get in - BUT be aware of what you are getting into.

PLovett
20th Jun 2010, 10:17
I have been following this thread and its predecessor with interest but I have a question which is based on what I believe is happening overseas at Ryanair which I believe is the model for this cadetship.

At the end of the 6 years as a junior FO (or whatever it is called) is there any guarantee that Jet* will retain your services as a full FO?

If not then any prospective cadets should be thinking whether the experience gained will be sufficient to get a job elsewhere (most likely overseas as A320 experience has limited currency in Australia).

oneflewnorth
20th Jun 2010, 10:35
So how does this cadetship compare to the Qantas one? Has anyone done the sums on it and pros/cons in comparison?

ForkTailedDrKiller
20th Jun 2010, 10:51
At least an experienced Captain makes life and death decisions for up to hundreds of passengers, in real time, during every flight.

FB, you don't really believe that do you? Huh?

Dr :8

Obsess91
20th Jun 2010, 10:53
I applied for the ab initio last Tuesday and got the call up from OAA on Saturday during the day. At the moment I've accepted the interview and I'm meant to be going down to Melbourne to complete the 2nd stage this week. However, I no longer have any interest in actually entering into a cadetship with J* because the negatives far outway the positives for me. Seeing as I'm living in QLD, just going down for stage 2 will cost me around $1000 and I really don't have that kind of money to spend on an interview where I could be turned back after 3 hours of tests. Not to mention the exorbitant cost of the cadetship itself! I'm planning on contacing them tomorrow to cancel my interview.

Goodluck to everyone that goes onto Stage 2, just make sure that you have a serious, serious think about the cadetship before you sign anything. To me, heading to GA after I get my qualifications seems to be the best way to go. Anyway, that's just my two cents in between all this animosity..!

frigatebird
20th Jun 2010, 11:53
Mate, if you didn't fly, - without the insight that you now so obviously have,- and it was 100 years ago - you would be no different from the superstitious masses. Why do you think the people went wild over Hinkler and Kingsford-Smith in the twenties and thirties. I applaud them for their courage for 'having a go' and ' being the first' and 'being the best of their generation' and being the 'pioneers', not just because some one else thought they were the local heros. Kingsford-Smith even accepted the position of patron of our local Club, so there is a personal connection, but ultimately it was because they had a go and succeeded - for a while -. The smart a*ses and carpet-baggers come later, but my hat goes off to the PIONEERS, so the pilots (and doctors and hangers-on) who come later with nothing to contribute but criticism about how it could have been done better at the time - can go jump. Bet the Wright Brothers were told numerous times that they were mad too, even though they approached the solution of powered flight in a structured technical way building on the experience of all the pioneers who had gone before.
And after the Wrights there were other pioneers who advanced the art at the cost of their lives put on the line, - sometimes forfeited. What other industry, medicine ? dentistry ? agriculture ? horticulture ? animal husbandry ? - does it to that degree ?

mcgrath50
20th Jun 2010, 11:55
So how does this cadetship compare to the Qantas one? Has anyone done the sums on it and pros/cons in comparison?


I bet no one would have thought we would be saying this but, Qantas is the cheaper cadetship :ok:

eocvictim
20th Jun 2010, 12:32
At the end of the 6 years as a junior FO (or whatever it is called) is there any guarantee that Jet* will retain your services as a full FO?

If not then any prospective cadets should be thinking whether the experience gained will be sufficient to get a job elsewhere (most likely overseas as A320 experience has limited currency in Australia).

Unfortunately that part of the site has been taken down but I think you will find that work is not guaranteed. In fact I think you'll find that if its the same as the UK schemes there may be no guarantee of employment at all. They may offer you the opportunity to fly with them as an FO, to gain experience, for a small additional fee. In which case you'd be left with more debt than the Greek government.

The chances of further employment outside of the scheme without any additional experience is pretty close to naught. I'm not sure of the chances of work in GA either. Perhaps with another small investment in some 210 time?

I also think you'll find that with the number of out of work A320 drivers in the UK, the limited experience and lack of JAA ATPL the Ausy guys will not be employable in the EU. Perhaps UAE or Asia?

It would be great if someone could confirm or deny this as it was the way I had interpreted the original page on the J* site. It seems that the answer to the above would be extremely important to anybody applying to this program and anyone who has a definitive answer should inform those wishing to continue with their application process.

ZappBrannigan
20th Jun 2010, 12:34
Can't really blame the kids for applying, or for not really listening to any advice not to apply. I applied for the QF cadetship a few years ago, shortly after I got my CPL - the reason being in my mind the only purpose for existence in aviation was to fly big shiny jets in the shortest amount of time possible. Even the concept of a single multi-command hour back then was super-exciting. Of course, as you progress in GA you learn about how the world really works, or how it should.

I certainly wouldn't have listened to any advice to not apply for the QF cadetship, as what possible reason could exist to NOT want to be up the front of a 747 in a Q uniform 2-3 years after being issued a CPL? Of course now I consider myself wiser, and this cadetship leaves me shaking my head a little.

I suppose my point is - don't expect any reasonable percentage of applicants to care in the slightest about comments on how they're "wrecking the industry". It's not until they've been up the front of that jet for a while that they'll probably start to realise that the other road, while harder and more frustrating, most likely leads to a brighter future. At this stage, they have very little industry knowledge, and just have their eyes fixated on the big jet they could be flying.

I don't see it as any different to people paying thousands of dollars for the privilege of flying some ICUS in a piston twin - blame the operator, but you can't blame the person forking over the cash - they simply don't know any better.

Gaius Baltar
20th Jun 2010, 23:01
Not everyone that has applied for this cadetship has no experience. I know of 5 people, including myself, that have between 1500-3000 total time that have applied. None of us have the minimums to get into an airline directly ( not enough twin time or night hrs). It comes down to this for me ; I am sick to death of the lack of safety culture in GA. I don't regret the flying or the experiences I have but I simply am feedup of the exhuasting mentality in GA. I want to fly aircraft that are safe and work for a company that has high standards. End of story!

I have applied for CTC and I have a date for stage 2 testing in Hamilton in July. If anyone else is going to Hamilton and wants to make contact please PM me.

fatalbert1
21st Jun 2010, 01:23
Does anyone know whats involved for the ACP selection after the initial one day Computer based test and interview? It says if the ab-initio guys are successful they will then have an interview at Jetstar in Melbourne but it doesn't specify what the process is for the ACP.

Lyra84
21st Jun 2010, 01:38
Im not sure about the next stage of ACP - I kinda assumed it would be the same as the ab-initio guys (i.e. followed by an interview with actualy Jetstar people in MEL again) although I am shuddering at the cost. I will be asking them what the next process is this week at my interview.

Does anyone know what the skills assessment/inital interview involves for the ACP? I guess Maths, personality, motivation... any news on specifics yet?

Cirronimbus
21st Jun 2010, 02:22
"At the end of the 6 years as a junior FO (or whatever it is called) is there any guarantee that Jet* will retain your services as a full FO?"

So, after the 6 years are up and no guarantee of ongoing employment, Jetstar gives the former cadet the flick and recruits another new cadet; is that how it goes?

It would be much cheaper for Jetstar to do that, so why wouldn't they?

And the poor old ex-cadet goes out into the real world with his 6 years of "experience" looking for another job.......what are his chances?

The Green Goblin
21st Jun 2010, 02:25
And the poor old ex-cadet goes out into the real world with his 6 years of "experience" looking for another job.......what are his chances?

A pay-rise :ok:

waren9
21st Jun 2010, 02:32
From Gaius Baltar,

I want to fly aircraft that are safe and work for a company that has high standards. End of story!

And so, you want to join Jetstar?

Oh dear me. You have much to learn young Skywalker.

ANCDU
21st Jun 2010, 04:43
I think a few things need to be taken into context here. The airline environment (and attitudes of people) are a lot different to when a lot of us were climbing the ropes in GA all those years ago.

The attitude these days is people want everything now, and thats fine, and thats what J* is using to their advantage. But what happens if the leisure market continues to dive? Where does it leave these guys? How do you pay off the loan if there isn't a position available for years? Do you have qualifications when you finish that will get you a position with another carrier..or god forbid in GA?:eek: (i dont just mean paper qualifications...i mean experience)

I think the amount of money they are charging for applications and testing is criminal, i thought the Qantas process was expensive!!!

Would be interesting to hear from some J* crew what they think of this, because by the sounds of some of the people on here applying for the cadetship its going to be hours of fun flying next to them :ugh:

Regardless of this, good luck to those applying, we are all pilots here and its great to see someones dream of flying come true if the opportunity presents itself.

boardpig
21st Jun 2010, 06:05
Paying for your own interview and selection process....??

:) all the way to the bank...

Comon guys, this should say it all really...

The Green Goblin
21st Jun 2010, 06:37
Regardless of this, good luck to those applying, we are all pilots here and its great to see someones dream of flying come true if the opportunity presents itself.

People do dream of flying but they also dream of buying a house, getting married having kids and eventual financial security.

In the past with a bit of hard work and determination the above was possible.

avi8r
21st Jun 2010, 06:52
Can anyone shed light on the assesssment process used by Oxford for the Advanced Cadet Program?

Thanks

toolowtoofast
21st Jun 2010, 07:23
Cadet at 19, RH seat at 21, fly for 6 years, pay off the bond, Jet* ditches you because there's other cheap-as cadets to fill your seat, you decide there's better money in building/plumbing/electrician, so at 27 years old you have had your first career - as an airline pilot - then you move on.

I can see this becoming the norm. It is regarded that the gen-y teens today will have 4 or 5 careers (not just jobs) before they retire. Hell I've had 3, and my kids are gen-y teens!

metrosmoker
21st Jun 2010, 08:25
As for flicking the guys after 6 years. On what basis would they have for sacking those pilots. If that was the way they operated, why wouldn`t they sack everyone after a year or 2 as it is cheaper to have pilots on year 1 wage as oppsed to year 6.
This is just blantant rumour mungering and slinging **** for the sake of it.

waren9 you are a F%^^$wit. On what grounds do you base your comments in reference to J* safety and standards? Simply because they are not Qantas? Grow up you child.

toolowtoofast
21st Jun 2010, 08:47
I would think it's like an apprentiship - a 6 year contract with right of renewal or not. There's plenty of (L)AME apprentices that do not retain their job at the end of their time, or at the least have to apply for a permanent position in the company that they have just worked for for the last 5 years.

eocvictim
21st Jun 2010, 09:02
How many virgin and J* FO's are on forced leave at the moment? That should give you an idea metrosmoker... Same thing happened to a few QF and Link cadets. But hey, as everyone says its what makes the world go round. :ok:

Jethro Gibbs
21st Jun 2010, 10:10
Paying for your own interview and selection process....?? and training

Struth you don,t pay an employer for a job get real out there soon these joints will have what they really want people to WORK FOR FREE and anyone paying is just making this WORK FOR FREE idea come sooner. :mad:

ausflying
21st Jun 2010, 10:15
Can anyone shed light on the assesssment process used by Oxford for the Advanced Cadet Program?

I'm in the same boat, if anyone knows anything about the assessment process for the ACP a PM would be great!

j3pipercub
21st Jun 2010, 10:57
Can anyone shed light on the assesssment process used by Oxford for the Advanced Cadet Program?

Does anyone know what the skills assessment/inital interview involves for the ACP? I guess Maths, personality, motivation... any news on specifics yet?

Have it on good authority that it is the SHL tests etc, quite extensive, including the shapes etc. There is also a panel interview asking behavioural questions and tech questions requisite with your aeronautical experience.

However, the most important test involves a pineapple. Day 1 you're allowed to use vaseline. If you are successful on Day 1, Day 2 is similar (As will the rest of the 6 years), they simply take away the vaseline.

:}

j3

Cirronimbus
21st Jun 2010, 11:27
Do the wannabe cadets get a new pineapple each day?

I bet they have to pay for that as well as the interview!!!

fatalbert1
21st Jun 2010, 11:37
Have it on good authority that it is the SHL tests etc, quite extensive, including the shapes etc. There is also a panel interview asking behavioural questions and tech questions requisite with your aeronautical experience.

Where'd you hear that?

moss197
21st Jun 2010, 11:42
Ditto...:ok:

Outtahere
21st Jun 2010, 20:49
Metrosmoker- go to the Atsb site. Jq standards may be the highest you've seen but they are not airline standards. Regional perhaps. They took 3 attempts to get Lwmo approval- and that was the check department.

The 330 is better, simply cause they failed most of the incompetents back to the 320, a novel way of addressing a standards issue. Nothing to do with not being Qantas, and a lot to do with once being Impulse.

Gnadenburg
21st Jun 2010, 21:26
Brutal and to the point outahere.

I must say, without naming names, some of the blokes I've seen coming out of low cost Australian carriers are well below par. Not their fault. Just nobody has ever invested any training in them.

3 Holer
21st Jun 2010, 22:03
As for flicking the guys after 6 years. On what basis would they have for sacking those pilots.

It's logical metrosmoker. After six years you have paid back all the money owed to the Company for training etc,. Now if you have been a good lad and not rocked the boat regards wanting more money and better conditions then you will be retained. However, if your name has "come out in lights" for whatever reason then ........there's the door.

This whole cadetship thing wreaks of hiring the most subservient aircrew imaginable and keeping it that way............OR ELSE!

Sad really :(

grrowler
21st Jun 2010, 22:31
I don't think the company is going to have to worry about sacking the cadets after 6 years, I'm guessing they are going to be leaving in droves anyway.

Didn't the former J* CEO say that he only expected his pilots to last something like 5-6 years?

Cirronimbus
21st Jun 2010, 22:40
You won't be "sacked" after 6 years; your contract just won't be renewed. After you've paid back your bond you are replaced by a new cadet (who gets paid a lot less than you to do the same job).

Once you no longer buy your job, they don't want to know you. You are replaced by a new "job buyer".

As they say, "buyer beware"!!!

desmotronic
21st Jun 2010, 23:00
caveat emptor indeed especially the passengers

waren9
21st Jun 2010, 23:54
Metrosmoker


waren9 you are a F%^^$wit. On what grounds do you base your comments in reference to J* safety and standards? Simply because they are not Qantas? Grow up you child.


On what grounds?

Having worked for 3 other jet operators (none of them QF) I reckon gives me a fair basis for my opinion. Didnt ask you to agree with it.

hardNfast
22nd Jun 2010, 04:39
There is hope for the cadets yet.

Maybe after 6 years they can purchase a 787 endo for a 4 year contract extension.:}

vancheng
22nd Jun 2010, 06:30
Batch 19 anyone?

Cirronimbus
22nd Jun 2010, 09:09
"...after 6 years they can purchase a 787 endo for a 4 year contract extension"

Yep, buy another job. No end to this generation's spending.

Paying for it all is really going to be a problem though.........

Tidbinbilla
22nd Jun 2010, 10:36
Well, based on what I've viewed in this thread, It doesn't surprise me that Australian airline conditions are in a spiral. :ugh: