Saville report

[endplay]

Wow! This seems to be an unequivocal damnation of the support company's actions on Bloody Sunday. What next?

[Wander00]

First time I have seen General Mike walking on metaphoric eggshells!

[vecvechookattack]

BBC News - Bloody Sunday killings 'unjustified and unjustifiable' (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/northern_ireland/10320609.stm)

Should General Mike and Major Loden be walking towards a lengthy prison sentence.

[Cows getting bigger]

Probably. To put things in context (a word Jackson used), one has to ask how much influence did the events of Bloody Sunday have upon the following years?

[racedo]

To put things in context (a word Jackson used), one has to ask how much influence did the events of Bloody Sunday have upon the following years?

I think you can pretty much but down what happened in the following 25 plus years to that day as people say the state attacking and the coverup that followed when the establishment closed ranks.

Cameron I think got the statement about right in what would have been an uncomfortable day for the establishment.

There only victors today are the families who have seen their loved ones cleared from a stain on their names unworthy of this country.

[minigundiplomat]

£119 million well spent then?

I think it should be the bloody lawyers in the dock.

[Old-Duffer]

Do we now have an enquiry into the murder of Mountbatten and the 14 (?) soldiers killed the same day at Warrenpoint?

I think if I had been summoned to the Saville Enquiry as a squaddie taking part, my answer would have been something like: "I'm sorry yur 'onour, it was a long time ago and after getting bashed on the head during several tours in NI, my memory is unreliable and I remember very little".

[larssnowpharter]

£119 million well spent then?


Needed to be done.

This was a key factor in the Troubles as others have said. Part of the deal done to move on to where we are now was a proper indpendent inquiry not the earlier whitewash.

Cost - in pure monetary terms - nothing compared to the human cost if the status quo had been allowed to continue.

[Double Zero]

I feel truly sorry for those genuinely innocent who were involved; on both 'sides'.

However it's easy for even me, a civilian with slight military connections, to imagine a frightened young squaddie letting off a few warning rounds, next minute his mates think the worst and join in...

Let us not forget the torture the IRA were fond of, not to mention placing powerful bombs among civilians on both sides of the Irish Sea.

As for the troops' equipment, remember that was 1972.

That minute's silence today should be for truly ALL losses.

[mrmrsmith]

don't be forgetting RAFG also, it wasn't just the UK that had Mr IRA out and about killing people. I have never forgot about the poor Dad and his 4 month year old just outside RAF Wildenrath in 89 -90, or the poor Aussie tourists that got it just over the borber in Holland , coz they spoke english, must be brits Mr IRA thought.
Though I am happy with the way things are now, even if Mr Mc Guiness is now a minister, was in Derry last Oct and I have to say the people are the best, and can say no wrong of the good people of N. I.

[Pontius Navigator]

And the WO driving home and shot in the ferry queue at Zeebrugge.

[im from uranus]

don't be forgetting RAFG also, it wasn't just the UK that had Mr IRA out and about killing people. I have never forgot about the poor Dad and his 4 month year old just outside RAF Wildenrath in 89 -90

I was on the gate at Wildenrath that very night, and the only one armed with a rifle, 'til all hell broke loose of course.

RIP CPL Mick Islania and 6 month old daughter. :(

[mrmrsmith]

and the rock apes up at Laarbruch ?, WO I remember, there is so many that the IRA ( IRA of olde, they no longer.....) are happy for us to forget. I say NO we need too remember them all. The Bloody Sunday "13" and all the others, service persons, civilians, the damned (sorry ITA and others).
UK main land, N.I, RAFG, everywhere, GIB. savilller report. F**K that. list the people we must not forget, lust we no longer forget.
Moder plz, change the name of this thread too ?

"We have not forgotten ........ Any of ...YOU..."

[November4]

Not forgotten

Roll of Honour (http://www.britains-smallwars.com/ni/ROH2.html)


Police Roll of Honour (http://www.britains-smallwars.com/ni/ric.html)

[mrmrsmith]

Thank You Nomember4 a sobering list

[November4]

Reading through the Roll of Honour and....

one of 12 people killed, including his wife and two young sons

19 other people killed by bomb

shot with his wife at their home

shot driving school bus. 3rd brother to be killed

[racedo]

Can we please stop confusing the outcome of the report with the IRA.

It was a Civil rights parade that was fired on and that is what the report dealt with nothing else.

Remember the other people who died BUT please stop trying to deflect the thread.

[side-slipper123]

The Saville report has been long overdue. All the people from Derry who have had family members and friends killed have been going through hell over the past 38years. As Mr Cameron said in his statement, these brutal killings by the british soldiers were "UNJUSTIFIED AND UNJUSTIFIABLE". The family members and friends can now move on, now that it has been admitted by the british government that the 14 victims were innocent.

R.I.P Bloody Sunday victims

[November4]

Whilst I agree that the shooting were unjustified I do not agree with all the 14 vicitms being called innocent...

Vol 1 Chap 3 Para 3.111

Gerald Donaghey was taken by car to the Regimental Aid Post of 1st Battalion, The Royal Anglian Regiment, which was at the western end of Craigavon Bridge, which spans the River Foyle. There four nail bombs were found in his pockets. The question arose as to whether the nail bombs were in his pockets when he was shot, or had been planted on him later by the security forces. We have considered the substantial amount of evidence relating to this question and have concluded, for reasons that we give, that the nail bombs were probably on Gerald Donaghey when he was shot. However, we are sure that Gerald Donaghey was not preparing or attempting to throw a nail bomb when he was shot; and we are equally sure that he was not shot because of his possession of nail bombs. He was shot while trying to escape from the soldiers.

Not a justification for his shooting but he obviously had a very innocent reason for carrying 4 nail bombs to a Civil Rights March.

[knowitall]

One sided stitch-up

and it will remain so until such time as Martin mguiness and co give a full and frank account of their actions that day!

[Whirlygig]

A stitch up? How else would you like to account for 13 civilian deaths and 14 seriously injured by British military bullets; some of which were in the back?

Didn't Widgery give the "other side"?

Cheers

Whirls

[knowitall]

whirls

what were the IRA doing? who fired the thompson SMG shots?

did they knowingly bait the british army? and lead innocent civilians into a trap?

non of that excuses their deaths in any way, but if the IRA played a role in the events of that day we should know

we don't know as mcguiness and co said they couldn't give evidence due to the IRA's "code of honour" and it was left at that

like I said one sided stitch-up

[NURSE]

sorry its all part of the appeasment process sorry peace process. Bend over backwards to please the republicans and dump all over the unionists.
Living in Northern Ireland when Saville set up it was fairly common knowledge on the eve of the first hearing what the outcome was going to be. Its another white wash. the Truth is somewhere between widgery and saville. But unless the report came up with this conclusion the relatives would reject it. I think the only bit that was left out of their version and saville was state colusion.

[cats_five]

<snip>
However it's easy for even me, a civilian with slight military connections, to imagine a frightened young squaddie letting off a few warning rounds, next minute his mates think the worst and join in...
<snip>


Do the Paras have 'frightened young squaddies' among their ranks?

[Cows getting bigger]

Getting back to context, it has to be remembered that this event was probably the main catalyst for 20+ years of troubles, including many/most/all of the subsequent murders on both sides. The lesson that needed to be learnt was that putting the military on the streets in order to manage/control the civilian population was the wrong thing. Mixing armed soldiers with a dissenting population is always a dangerous scenario.

[MOSTAFA]

Wrote a note in my diary yesterday it simply said

"Well that confirms it - 30 years of my life completely wasted"

[Sloppy Link]

I don't believe this one incident was the main catalyst for the following 30 years or so. The province was rapidly falling into mass civil disorder with famlies being burnt out of their homes, republican and loyalist gangs asserting their power on the populus with violence whlst at the same time engaging in vicious internal power struggles within resulting in no clear direction from their own hierarchy. Perversely, McGunness was in control at the time, his role never fully explained on that day, however, the Saville report does accept there was OIRA sniper activity.
Bloody Sunday is oft quoted as a justification for the republican cause, the reality I'm afraid is a catalogue of reasons. Internment without trial. Op Motorman. Armoured cars patrolling your street. B Specials. Miami Showband. Power struggles. Money. I can go on, the issue is that these people died at the hands of Government Agents and as such, the Government has to be held to account, trying to draw parrallells with IRA deeds is apples and pears, two completely different issues. They still have to atone for ordering 10 of their members to starve themselves to death, for disappearing Jean McConville, for countles atrocities upon their own let alone soldiers, policemen and civilians and no, there will not be an enquiry because they will not accede to investigation. They are not a tool of Government and therefore have the luxury of being answerable only to themselves.
The reports failings are it's success. 12 years and nearly £200M, there is no appetite for another enquiry covering this or any other part of "The Troubles". To steal from the Daily Telegraph, court action against the soldiers is unlikely because of the comprehensiveness of the report in the chain of events but its refusal to categorically state which soldier fired which shot that killed which civilian but uses probable, possible and likeley. It would be impossible for a conviction due to the amount of information in the public domain would prevent a free and fair trial. I honestly believe it would serve no further purpose than to further line the pockets of ambulance chasing lawyers.
I also think that the PM has handled this in the correct manner.....mind you, he has had a long time to prepare his statement to the house.


SL

[GANNET FAN]

Surely General Mike's comments that the report should be read in the context of what the situation was at the time, are very relevant?

[dalek]

Correct me if I am wrong.
I thought that all incidents/ killings/ crimes committed prior to the agreement were closed.
The police no longer pursue PIRA and UVF killers from that period.
Why should the PIRA and their supporters ask the police to investigate soldiers, who forty years ago, "may" have committed an offence.

[Tester_76]

The police no longer pursue PIRA and UVF killers from that period.
Why should the PIRA and their supporters ask the police to investigate soldiers, who forty years ago, "may" have committed an offence


One simple reason - one rule for "us", another for "them".

[biscuit74]

Tester 76, Mustafa,

Sadly I think you are right. Though, Mustafa, some of us are grateful for the efforts of folk like you.

The perfect hindsight mob are always around.

Lawyers and judges can sit in peaceful safety and pontificate at length. Having been given strong & biased direction by politicians who have little interest in truth, more in convenience, it's not surprising the results are somewhat unbelievable. In Britain very few enquiries ever seriously challenge the 'establishment' view.

Clearly, this is a whitewash. As such, low in believability. I am not so naive as to assume a 'learned judge' is any less fallible or distorted in his viewpoint than anyone else. They start with bias too. Few sensible folk will take any other view of this.

The truth, I am sure, actually lies somewhere between this rather silly whitewash and the early stories from the Army at the time. A mixture of innocents and bad hats out to cause trouble, plus some rather worried and frightened folk. On both sides. A recipe for trouble.


My recollection of the views of various Northern Irish acquaintances before and after Bloody Sunday doesn't match with what this report talks about. For far too many, a life of simmering malevolent hatred for their perceived opponents that chilled me then.

Having very recently been back, visiting the border areas, it chills me still. 'Peace' now yes, but a watchful, unsettled distrustful one. I doubt that much has changed, beneath the surface, yet. The politicos may feel this, at great expense, gives 'closure' and allows things to move on, improve.

They may be right. In my experience politicians seldom are.

[charliegolf]

Mostafa

Wrote a note in my diary yesterday it simply said

"Well that confirms it - 30 years of my life completely wasted"

Why? I assume you're referring to service in the province. Did you do a ****e job when on duty? I bet not. Why was it a waste? Just interested.

CG

[tonker]

It's getting like the middle east, and to be honest i just can't be bothered to talk or listen about it anymore. I'm sure if my relatives had been killed that day, yesterday would have, and lets be honest a momentous day.

But life is going to move on regardless of all those living in the past with either their terrible memories, or their vested interests in keeping this period afloat.

Anyway.....:cool:

YouTube - Alan Partridge - Sunday Bloody Sunday (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=euhGPrgVZj0)

[Tester_76]

It's getting like the middle east

Whoa - no self respecting Irish terrorist would blow themselves up in a suicide attack on the promise of a few virgins. A few kegs of Guinness :D / Harp:yuk: would be enough. Plus once you gave them the kegs and they'd done the job, there would be some kegs left for the next big one (Green terrorism at its best)

[Unixman]

Tester_76 (http://www.pprune.org/members/255600-tester_76)

And there has to be one rule for them and one for us. That is what separates civilized societies who attempt to obey the rule of law from the terrorists.

This enquiry was to find out what happened when that attempt broke down.

[ExGrunt]

Correct me if I am wrong.
I thought that all incidents/ killings/ crimes committed prior to the agreement were closed.


Actually you are wrong.

The PSNI have a Historical Enquiries Team.

The Historical Enquiries Team is to examine all deaths attributed to ‘The Troubles’ from January 1969 to the Good Friday Agreement in 1998; this equates to 3235 deaths from 2538 incidents.

EG

[teeteringhead]

The PSNI have a Historical Enquiries Team.
... that would be the same PSNI whose Superintendants, unlike those of any other UK Police Force/Service, wear a star rather than a Crown, lest the Crown be offensive to some of the UK citizens in NI ........:ugh:

[bvcu]

Think we need to put the event into historical context as to where troops had been on operations in the preceding years which could explain mindset and procedures. Hadnt long finished a bloody war in places like Aden , so to put a combat outfit into a civil environment was very difficult. You can see that lessons were learned , which obviously doesnt help those who lost family. Hopefully it will allow people to move on , although some never will. Very difficult judging events from 38 years ago by modern standards , bit unfair to those there on the day as with hindsight i'm sure a lot of them might have acted differently. Unfortunately its being hijacked by various groups for political ends.

[RUCAWO]

... that would be the same PSNI whose Superintendants, unlike those of any other UK Police Force/Service, wear a star rather than a Crown, lest the Crown be offensive to some of the UK citizens in NI ........

Thats the one and I'm glad I'm now out of it, most of the new ones couldn't find their own arse with both hands, now the lowest clearup rate in the UK as opposed to the highest when it was a real "Royal" police force.

[Cows getting bigger]

Aaaaah yes, but some may say that the new incumbents at Palace don't exactly help.

[vecvechookattack]

Exactly.......the sooner we can get rid of them the better

[MOSTAFA]

CG,

I, like many on this site; spent most of their military careers in and out of Northern Ireland.

Personally I started going in April 1973 (my 18th Birthday). As a young paratrooper I did 5 tours, all in South Armagh on the ground. Then, I went flying in 1979 and left in 2003 having completed another 4 tours (Flying) and a 3 year posting (flying). So I feel qualified to comment.

All my time there did I feel we achieved something - you are damn right we did.

Now the politico's have had there say in the last 15 years do I still feel the same. - You are damn right I don't.

Has the killing stopped - no.

Sadly and from experience - there is only one way to fight terrorism and that is with terrorism. Forgive me, I don't condone what happened with 1 Para but I sure as hell understand it.

[x213a]

it has to be remembered that this event was probably the main catalyst for 20+ years of troubles, including many/most/all of the subsequent murders on both sides.

Never has there been a more fine reason to quote the latin logical fallacy:

Post hoc ergo propter hoc.

[Cows getting bigger]

Oh really? Maybe I should have said "... one of the key catalysts....". You may indeed be right, I'm just judging from the people I have lived and worked with for a couple of decades.

[x213a]

I'm just judging from the people I have lived and worked with for a couple of decades.

So let me get this right - you either lived and worked with the IRA or the IRA were wholly representative of a huge segment of the population's sentiments in their words and actions?

[Cows getting bigger]

:ugh::ugh::ugh::ugh::ugh::ugh:

[x213a]

Hmm, a constructive response.
I reckon you are lying - you even had your location as Scotland prior to your edit.
Editing profiles to match professed opinions? That's a new one.