Job as a Pilot 2010

[tw87]

There's a lot of good info on these pages about becoming a pilot etc. but was interested to see if anyone could answer some questions to which the answers may not be readily available to people out with the industry currently.

The two main training schemes I am currently aware of are CTC and Oxford Aviation. Both are very expensive and thus seem to make becoming a pilot a less than straightforward option (sorry for stating the obvious!). I already know two people who have completed the same university course as me that have been successful in their applications to CTC. So, my questions are:

1. Are CTC\Oxford Aviation the main schemes available to people in the UK (outside specific airline schemes)? Which is generally considered to be better (both generally and employment wise)?

2. At the end of these schemes, is it a case of "here is a job with airline x, it has the following pay and conditions - take it or leave it"?

3. What are the general working patterns of a pilot? Is it 4 days on, 3 days off etc?

4. Once you are in a job (say after completion of the scheme), how secure is it?

5. Approximately how long does it take to pay off the expense of training

Also, in terms of the finances, does anyone know of people who have undertaken one of these schemes (CTC/Oxford) and subsequently found themselves in financial ruin? Any answers/comments would be greatly appreciated!

Cheers!

[Bealzebub]

I am afraid a lot of the questions are of the "how long is a piece of string?" variety. The answers depend on many variables and the answers in themselves vary.

Certainly CTC and Oxford are 2 of the principal providers of integrated flight training courses in the UK, but they are not the only ones, nor is the UK the only source of integrated flight training. Integrated courses are inevitably an expensive option in the pursuit of commercial flight training, however there are also modular routes into achieving a commercial licence and instrument rating that for many people offers a more affordable option.

1. CTC and Oxford are two of the principal providers of Integrated flight training courses. Both also offer modular components to people electing to source aspects of their own training programmes. It is something of a moot point to ascribe one as being better than another, since few people will have any comparative assesment of both. The one you choose is probably going to be the "better" one in your own case. They both have a good reputation in the main. Both have had airline specific affiliation programmes from time to time, and obviously within the context of those programmes the preference is that of the airline customer.

2. No it most certainly isn't. Jobs are very hard to come by at the moment as a result of the general economy and specific economic, social, and work practice changes within the airline industry.

3. Working pattens vary enormously and will be largely dictated by industrial agreements within specific airlines in various types of airline operation. Some may well have 4 on 3 off type operation with flexibility either side. Others may have you working 6 straight days one week and 3 the next. It is a 24/7/365 industry and the operator will construct whatever programmes fit in with the regulatory and industrial framework in order to satisfy their own individual requirements.

4. Once you are (these days) lucky enough to secure a flying job, if indeed you ever do, then you are normally at the bottom of a long seniority list. Obviously that in itself is the not the securest place to be. However the general state of the industry provides for very little real security generally.

5. Anytime you like. Obviously it will depend on your own personal debt and your own level of income or external support. Integrated training may cost typically anywhere from £85,000 to £130,000 and if you need to finance any or all of this training, the interest charged will likely vary, as will the monies you might have available to discharge the obligation. I would have thought that 7 to 10 years would be a reasonable "guesstimate" in many cases, but it really does depend on so many variables.


In answer to your final point, yes! There are people who have borrowed these large sums who have suffered severe financial difficulties. Yes I do know a couple. These days such large sums are normally secured by a mortgage charge. Therefore the ultimate liability will rest on the guarantor or mortgagee. However the few lenders who might still consider advancing money backed by this charge, are likely to be reasonably satisfied that the guarantor can service the borrowing even if employment for the borrower is not forthcoming at the point repayments need to commence.

Make no mistake it is a major commitment with absolutely no guarantees whatsover, and a very high likelyhood that employment as a result of the training will not be forthcoming in any required timescale.

[G SXTY]

As ever, Bealzebub's answer is pretty definitive, but few more thoughts:


Are CTC\Oxford Aviation the main schemes available to people in the UK (outside specific airline schemes)?

God no, although they would like you to believe it, and their sales people might well leave you with that impression. There are dozens of flight schools where you can train to CPL/IR standard (which is the licence you will need in order to apply to an airline). Oxford and CTC are merely two of the largest.

Note that training costs tend to be directly proportional to the quantity and shininess of a school's marketing literature, and it is possible to get fully qualified from around £45k by using a combination of smaller schools and modular training.


Which is generally considered to be better (both generally and employment wise)?

Neither, and the question opens a huge can of worms. At the end of the day, all schools have to train people to a standard where they can go flying with a CAA examiner and pass the skills tests for a CPL and instrument rating. We all end up qualified to the same standard.

Regarding employment chances, individual airlines (often for historical reasons) lean towards particular schools when they recruit, and a recommendation from your school can send your CV straight to the top of the interview pile. Note that this is emphatically not the same as guaranteeing a job, but it's a hell of a head start. The big integrated schools make much of their relationships with airlines (it's one way of justifying the cost differential) but smaller schools can be just as effective at securing interviews for people. In any case, most if not all UK airlines source their low-houred recruits from more than one school.

Far more important is whether airlines are actually recruiting. If they are not (and right now the job market for inexperienced pilots is practically dead) then it matters not where you trained, you will struggle to find work. Several of my cabin crew colleagues have CPLs issued by Oxford, FTE and modular schools – none of them can find a flying job.


At the end of these schemes, is it a case of "here is a job with airline x, it has the following pay and conditions - take it or leave it"?

If only. The job market for pilots is classic boom and bust, operating on roughly a 8-10 year cycle. Historically there is a sweet spot during the couple of years leading up to the peak, where jobs are relatively plentiful, and most people find employment quite quickly. The rest of the time, the experience of finding a first job ranges from very difficult to downright impossible. The importance of timing cannot be over-emphasised.
When times are good, it's not unknown for people to pick and choose between jobs, but it's rare. The vast majority of people would sell their granny for a chance of an airline interview, never mind a job.


What are the general working patterns of a pilot? Is it 4 days on, 3 days off etc?

Depends on the airline. Some have fixed roster patterns, like Ryanair of Easyjet. Some, like BA, have biddable rosters, so in theory, the longer you stay, the more you can write your own roster. Other airlines have variable rosters – within legal (CAA) and industrial (union) limits they can do what they like with you. I've got next month's roster in front of me; 2 off, 5 on, 2 off, 6 on (including 5 nights away from home) 3 off, 5 on, 2 off, 5 on. Only 2 standby days, and invariably I start on an early and finish on a late, so 2 days off is actually more like 36 hours. Then again, it is July. In winter months I might have a week of unused block standby – being paid to sit at home 'on call'. Swings and roundabouts.

One of the truisms of being an airline pilot is that within a year or two, the initial excitement subsides, and what you fly and where become secondary to the money and quality of life. But that's for the second job and beyond – when you're starting off, any work will do.


Once you are in a job (say after completion of the scheme), how secure is it?

How secure is any job? This industry is notoriously volatile, and few of us will get through our careers without at least the threat of redundancy. Added to which, we face regular medicals and simulator checks, failing any of which could mean a 'career interruption', as one of my colleagues delicately puts it.


Approximately how long does it take to pay off the expense of training?

It depends on how much you spend on training, how much debt you take on, how quickly you find a job and how well the job pays. I'm a career-changer, with a reasonably well paid office job in London which funded around half my training, the rest going on the mortgage. Three years after leaving that job, my income is just about up to the same level (although with much better long-term prospects and vastly better job satisfaction and quality of life). In short, if you're doing this to get rich, don't bother – train as an accountant instead.


does anyone know of people who have undertaken one of these schemes (CTC/Oxford) and subsequently found themselves in financial ruin?

Yes. I know people with £80k plus of debt who have maxed out all their credit cards and are struggling to fly a few hours a month to keep current. Good guys as well. They simply qualified at the wrong time, and it's not a pretty sight.

Good on you for asking the questions, but if you decide to launch into commercial flight training, always plan for the worst, and assume it may take years to find employment after you qualify. Never, ever listen to careers 'advice' from any flying school, and for God's sake limit your debt exposure. There are people qualifying now in their early twenties who will be well into their thirties before it's all paid off. They could have got a 'normal' job and used it to fund part time training while sitting out the recession and waiting for the job market to improve.

Forget school A versus B - hitting that sweet spot in the recruitment cycle is the best thing you could ever do to improve your employment prospects.

[MightyDucks]

I know this will seem like an impossible question to answer but how long will it take until the market does pick up again?

And i'm talking about jobs for newly qualified pilots. i'm hearing from between a year to 5 years

[tw87]

Cheers guys, good insight there. It does seem to be an incredibly tricky career in terms of getting that foot in the door. I have considered more "normal" careers/jobs, simply to avoid the uncertainty and prospect of severe financial difficulty. Should I go down that route I will probably try and gain a ppl in my spare time, although I've always been interested in flying bigger aircraft. I would be interested to hear about any experiences and the satisfaction of a job as pilot. I have spoken to a pilot who seemed to suggest that while larger aircraft like 747/A380 and even medium sized (737) may seem like an exciting prospect; the reality is that these aircraft operate more rigidly (in terms of their flight plans/operations) and thus flying them may become monotonous after a period of time...

[minimad]

I'm 21 and doing my ppl. I've decided on going the modular route, because it suits my
Circumstances better, if you have the money intergrated would be good but at the end of the day everyone has to take the same test and be at the same standard. There are other wats than just cabair and oxford. Keep as many options open and have a good look around! Have you considered the military?

[A320rider]

it will take 4-5 years for airline pilots.
5-8years for a 200 h pilot.

slow recovery with risk of double recession? Yes.
actually the USA create 400'000 job per month, when last year they lost 700'000 job/month.
it will take 2-3 years until we go back to a good time.As long they create 400'000 jobs which I doubt.
Good time very soon?, maybe, but not in aviation knowing banks are not willing to help the airline industry anymore.

I think that a double recession will be here after summer 2010.I see it in my crystal ball.(japan, greece, spain, italy and finally USA).

no need to rush to flight schools!.

[G SXTY]

th87

It's a couple of years old, but this might give you an idea:
http://www.pprune.org/interviews-jobs-sponsorship/327746-day-life.html
One of these days I might get round to updating it, but I still love the job as much as when I first started.

I think it's fair to say that job satisfaction varies tremendously, depending on a number of factors: employer, base location, route network, pay, lifestyle, and not least one's expectations when coming into the industry. Personally I'm very happy with my lot, but I've always been a 'glass half full' type of chap, and I recognise that other people's situations (even within my own base) might not be so good. It's pretty unscientific, but in my limited experience, the few miserable sods you meet have generally gone straight into flying from school or university, and have known nothing else. Career changers (again, in my limited experience) tend to be happier, possibly because they have the perspective of having worked in the outside world, and can appreciate the benefits of flying as opposed to a 9-5 office job. That's my theory, anyway.

Regarding aircraft type, as I said before, it's very much secondary to pay and lifestyle. If I can generalise however, the bigger the aircraft, the greater is the tendency to 'operate' it rather than 'fly' it. The comparison in my company is between the Q400 and E195, and while the jet is regarded as the cushy option, with more sophisticated avionics, greater automation and more user-friendly systems, people who have flown both regard it as a bit boring compared to the Dash – which on a good day is an enjoyable challenge to fly, and on a bad day is a right handful. However, the 'fun' element of flying the turboprop is being eroded by ever more restrictive SOPs, so in practical terms there isn't really much difference.

Regardless of aircraft type, any airline flying has a tendency to become monotonous after a while (particularly if you're operating a small route network) and it's very different to poling around VFR in a Robin or PA-28. Personally I couldn't care less, because (a) they're paying me for the privilege, and (b) I get my flying fix from being around aircraft and admiring the views from the flight deck. Each to his own though.

Reading between the lines of your post, it sounds like you are best off getting a PPL and doing some pleasure flying to start off with. You'll soon know if it's got under your skin (it's a bit like falling in love, you just know) and whether all the grief and expense of commercial training is worth it for you. Everyone is different, and there is no simple right or wrong answer.

[Poose]

Fantastic response and first class advice as always, from G-SXTY!

I can definetetly relate to his comments, especially with regard to appreciation of the career. I would agree that the guys who moan have never experienced a crappy or mundane job. I'm currently stuck in an office and would just like to wake up in the morning looking forward to work... as opposed to that sinking feeling one gets on a Sunday night... :uhoh:

A friend from my office now works for the same company as G-SXTY, after following the 'Modular' route and timing his training right...
In essence, it proves that this can be done, given patience, drive and good planning!

Listen to the wise words of G-SXTY, folks! :D

[119.35]

What a great read this thread is and I have to say many thanks to G SXTY and Bealzelbub for taking the time out to post such detailed, informative and insightful replies.

It's invaluable and much appreciated guys!

G SXTY - updating 'your day in a life' thread giving your perspective from a career changer 2 years on would be really great as you don't tend to hear from people once they have 'made it'.

But maybe your statement 'but I still love the job as much as when I first started' sums it up nicely!

[redsnail]

I'll have a go. Finished early today, been busy over the last couple of days.

1. "schemes" as in guided? They are very expensive for what is exactly the same licence. They suit some people but aren't always suitable for every situation. Which is better? It's up to the person.
Some of the smaller flight schools have very good contacts with the GA charter world & bizjet world.

2. I'll be honest, I have no idea. I relied on getting my own jobs, not being "handed" something from a flight school.

3. "How long is a piece of string?". My working "week" is 6 on, 5 off. I do not plan on being home at all for those 6 days on. I could end up (and do) any where. There is no routine. (Note, I don't do an airline job)

4. There's the usual initial period of 1 to 6 months where if it's not working out (you fail, you don't like it, they aren't happy with you) where you can part ways with comparatively little pain. Depending on the reason for the company to let you go, you'll be liable for none, part or all of the training bond. Once through that period, then your job security is dependent on the company remaining solvent, your base being viable, you not doing any thing that gives them reason to fire you.

5. It depends on how much you paid for your training and how much you earn. Simple. :)

6. I doubt they'd post here. We have a few guys at work who have had to take a "voluntary" (reduced wage) option who are in dire straits.

[minimad]

Top advice from g-sxty, I'm 21 and a career changer, young you might say but I've done 4 years in the army and a tour of Afghanistan, and a few more years ahead of me! My views are if its your dream then you have to go for it whatever it is. My glass is always half full, its a bit depressing hearing all this negativity about the aviation industry and jobs. I might not know much about the industry but I'm going for that left hand seat and anyone else who wants to should go for it aswell!

[m-23]

That´s true minimad, you need to think positive if you really want your dream to come true and if things get bad, think that it could allways be wors. I don´t know where i am going to train or anything, but what i know is that i want to work as an airline pilot!!

[Greg2041]

it will take 4-5 years for airline pilots. 5-8years for a 200 h pilot.

Hmm not according to Loop's advertisers!

Seriously, as pilots leave they will eventually need to back-fill jobs. I understand that for every 10 leaving 1 is recruited but I'm not sure if that is fact or fiction.

I really don't think we will hit a double recession although I suspect interest rates will rise next year. If this happens, then less people will train and the pool of pilots will shrink.

Either way, it is a win, win situation but not for another 5 years and not if you are riddled with debt.

That's my analysis of the situation and for what it is worth, I am usually wrong! :rolleyes:

[JB007]

Every now and then in this job, you need a kick up the arse! I've been to London by train today, I sat next to two guys surgically connected to Blackberrys who insisted in taking to each other with ego driven corporate boll*cks speech - I smiled..a lot!

I endured big delays on the Circle line in horribly high temperatures...

I've had this industry throw some crap at me in the past 12 months: redundancy, pressure to find new employment in a market place that is rock bottom and the big life changes involved in the new job. And most upsetting is experiencing the present generation of exploitation management skills...

But we are still VERY lucky...I have none of the above tosh to put up with, I get to see some wonderful places and awesome views. I apply a parking brake and walk away...it ain't that badly paid either...

Cheers
JB