UK Mil to get NH90?

[Spanish Waltzer]

Anyone else seen the throw away comment in the article on the forthcoming defence cuts in todays mail on sunday that the UK is going to purchase 10 NH90s for use by the SAS.

I appreciate more times than not the papers get it completely wrong but if this is the case why is the MoD looking at another aircraft type rather than sticking to a type we already have or what is battlefield proven. I didn't think the NH90 has had fantastic reviews either. A fleet of just 10 must surely be more expensive in the long run than increasing the exisiting fleet of either merlin or chinook or buying blackhawk off the shelf?

[Could be the last?]

What's wrong with the latest version of the Lynx.............Surely if it is as good as AW say it is:E

[HaveQuick2]

Didn't they recently just get some new Dauphins?

I thought NH.90s are being less than well-recieved by some current customers. What would it bring that other platforms fail to provide (apart from yet another additional support infrastructure)?

[vecvechookattack]

By CHRISTOPHER LEAKE

Defence chiefs are planning to axe up to 15,000 soldiers in a major review of military spending.
Defence Secretary Dr Liam Fox last week warned that tough choices had to be made in the Strategic Defence and Security Review, which takes place every five years.
Senior sources have told this newspaper that the cuts envisaged would mean a 15 per cent reduction in the size of the British Army, with the loss of at least four of the current 36 infantry battalions.
The defence insiders say other measures being considered in the review – due to be published in August – include:
Halving an order for US-made Joint Strike Fighter aircraft from 140 to 70 because of delays and cost increases.
Further cuts to Harrier and Tornado jet squadrons and the closure of several air bases.
The retirement and mothballing of more nuclear submarines.
The sale of acres of real estate at the Plymouth, Portsmouth and Rosyth dockyards for development of homes, shops and offices.
Extending the life of Trident, Britain’s nuclear deterrent, because a replacement is regarded as too expensive.
A cull of Ministry of Defence civil servants including senior mandarins on six-figure salaries and huge bonuses.
Dozens of colonels, brigadiers and other middle-ranking officers being sent into early retirement.
A sell-off of defunct tanks and armoured vehicles no longer suitable for battles in Afghanistan.
Colonel Richard Kemp, former commander of British forces in Afghanistan, said: ‘The Army has suffered from many years of under-resourcing, yet it has borne the overwhelming brunt of the fighting in every major conflict since World War Two. It must now have priority on resource decisions.
‘I am very concerned to see infantry battalions considered for cuts – we don’t have enough foot soldiers now and if anything we will need even more in the future.
‘It is right to remove the glut of senior officers in all three services, and there must be substantial savings to be made by closing or merging several of the military headquarters that have been built up, some of which are unnecessary, inefficient and duplicate effort.’
However, one piece of good news expected in the review is that the SAS is to get ten new helicopters worth £100 million.
The order for the twin-engined European-built NH90s will boost operations in Afghanistan, where commanders have long demanded more capability to airlift troops.
But the Special Forces would have preferred the more expensive US-built Black Hawks, which are seen as tougher and more reliable.
Under the review, the Parachute Regiment and the Royal Marines will be asked to share back-up units such as artillery, medics and engineers. But senior officers at the sharp end of battle group brigades say that to dismantle any aspect of these two elite formations would undermine their fighting ability.
An MoD spokesman said: ‘The Defence Secretary has made clear that tough decisions will need to be made but the complex process of a Strategic Defence and Security Review is in its early stages and speculation about its outcome is entirely unfounded.’


Read more: David Cameron is told: Here's £37bn of cuts to get you started | Mail Online (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1286199/David-Cameron-told-Heres-37bn-cuts-started.html#ixzz0qkdOZUFX)

[grandfer]

Didn't Wastelands get the go-ahead to build Blackhawks under licence from Sikorsky a few years back , I seem to remember they obtained one to modify & rebuild so it could use RR engines .

[barnstormer1968]

Westlands did build a Blackhawk, and also designed an attack helicopter based on the lynx. It just seemed that the government did not want them (luckily in the case of the attack chopper).

IMHO we have done quite well using Westland built helicopters based on U.S. products (especially in the case of the Wessex). If you do not agree with my conclusion, perhaps I had better add that it was better to have the U.S. designs, bearing the mind the product still had to be UK made.

[Bismark]

Lets axe the GR4 and Harrier early,

A lower risk option would be to put the Harrier back in Afghanistan from where it should never have been removed, and axe the GR4 force. That way we will not compromise Typhoon and also be ready for JSF. We must not forget that the Harrier force was only reduced in size to try and get the RN out of the force - with Stirrup now compromised, and Torpy and Anderson out of play, sense should prevail.

[MaroonMan4]

NH-90 hey?

And of course if this Govt is seeking to cut procurement costs and timelines it has spoken to the waiting NH-90 customers that have been battling project delays.

And if the Prime Minister is seeking advice from Canada on how to resolve the national debt, he may also wish to seek advice from Australia on how not to bring into service a Eurocopter military helicopter - they are significantly behind on both their NH 90 and ARH Tiger projects.

Why not buy something that is doing the job and combat proven?

[Lima Juliet]

Axing GR4 vice Typhoon might make sense from a first look, however, it is nearly 40% more expensive to fly Typhoon than GR4. So if you go down "The war" vs "A war" argument then GR4 makes more sense:eek:

I understand that GR9 is cheaper than both - but you get what you pay for!

LJ :ok:

[rockape2k7]

Dozens of colonels, brigadiers and other middle-ranking officers being sent into early retirement.

Go on you know you want to!!! :E:ok:

[Tiger_mate]

The only thing wrong with ordering 10xNH90 is that they havn't ordered 30 to replace Puma. They should not be multi role models but built for a specific battlefield objective. Multi role airframes are rarely optimised for a specific task. I hope it happens; it should have happened years ago.

Crewing them is going to be a bunfight.

[chopper2004]

Cool so after 6 yrs, its finally coming to fruition :cool::cool::cool:

SAS ghost squadron; New 'stealth' helicopters will guard against attack on UK | Mail on Sunday (London, England), The Newspaper | Find Articles at BNET (http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_8003/is_2004_August_22/ai_n37301906/)

[zero1]

I am not a heli expert, as you will soon tell from this post so don’t shout at me forgetting this wrong but to save money why buy a new airframe type (NH90…), you would be better buying more Merlin (perhaps with a renegotiated purchase cost), which might be able to replace the aging Puma assuming it can match the operation role or buy more Lynx, as a small team insertion helicopter, both of which would help extend the production lines and keep people in work. The other obvious choice would be the Blackhawk Special Forces version but that would introduce a new airframe and increase the support and running costs and I won’t bother mentioning the V-22….
I could never understand the choice of the Chinook in the first place, there is no way one of these could sneak up on you without you hearing it first from 5-10 clicks…. When they fly over the house at 2-3k ft they still shake the doors windows with the low frequency noise. Perhaps the SAS choose it let the enemy know they were coming so they had time run off…

eugene

[Faithless]

We will get it....strip out the engines put new ones in....rip out the avionics put some others in....put different blades on and call it WH91 :rolleyes:

[wokkamate]

utter hoop........:ok:

Sell the Tornado force and the AT Fleet, get rid of the Royal Navy, bring the whole of the British Army back to blighty and batten down the hatches! Proper 'Dunkirk Spirit'......;)

As ever, just a thought!

[wokkamate]

@ Tiger Mate:

'crewing them is going to be a bunfight'

or B. Give them to the AAC!

What they might achieve with a decent Aviation platform?

I can only guess you are a Puma mate, loads of SF experience to offer? :cool:

[minigundiplomat]

The only thing wrong with ordering 10xNH90 is that they havn't ordered 30 to replace Puma.


Ahem, 10 NH90 v 30 Puma, I think you may have answered your own point there.

[Tallsar]

Good point MGD ----- replace 30 with 10 ---I like it!! Of course we could always buy a few more later when they eventually mature:ouch:. An RAF CH47/NH90 fleet - now there's a thought (from about 1986 I think!!):ugh:

As for more SH Merlin.....it's probably the most expensive cab to buy, fly and maintain per kg auw in the UK helo inventory......moving the RAF fleet to the FAA ownership has some sense since at least it allows a single focus for supporting the type and as cost effectively as possible in the circumstances ...but no one should think that is the most efficient way of spending the Queen's Shilling if other choices were possible....a poor legacy from the 1995 procurement decision by the last Tory government!!

Sadly UK helicopter procurement through the decades while disjointed and subject to fierce single and inter-service "issues" has left us with some difficult legacies - and cost effective fleets is not one of them!

If we do buy NH90 - at least we will get a modern cab that has some elements in its design focussed on tactical work (including spec ops) ----Have we ever done that before? Now let me think.......CH47 Mk3?:hmm::*

Keep smiling!!:rolleyes:

[Doors Off]

he may also wish to seek advice from Australia on how not to bring into service a Eurocopter military helicopter - they are significantly behind on both their NH 90 and ARH Tiger projects.


Too right. I don't think the Ozzies are anything to go by in bringing in new aircraft. Even the French have deployed their Tigers to Afghanistan. The Oz one is more capable (hellfire equipped) yet there is no mention of it nearing deployability and they have had them for nearly six years:bored:

[juliet]

zero1,

Lynx is to small for most roles and has only been of limited use. Merlin is bloody big but without the capacity of CH-47. Puma has proven to be of a very useful size for most Ops.

Ask the boys on the ground what they want and they will tell you CH-47. Its fast, can carry all the lads in one hit, and is able to operate everywhere, unlike other helis we have. Failing that the NH90 will be a good option size wise.

Perhaps a good introduction of NH90 will lead to a bigger buy to replace Puma?

Wokkamate - you doubt the experience of the Puma in the SF role?

[Tiger_mate]

Wokkamate - you doubt the experience of the Puma in the SF role?

Especially when operating in an 'Olympic village' or indeed central London.

[Lynxman]

Aren't we moving off thread. There was talk on the web of the SAS getting NH-90 about six years ago but since then the Dauphin has replaced the A109A. I think its a non story.

[Hilife]

I suspect the author of this piece in the Sunday Mail started his career at the Sunday Sport, as the idea of the SAS procuring NH90’s is about as believable as one of NASA’s space probes spotting a Lancaster bomber on the moon, or that Elvis is alive and well and residing in Leeds.

On the sales PowerPoint presentation, many new aircraft designs promise incredible performance, systems integration, reliability and reduced maintenance gains, but in truth when it pulls up outside the hangar – often many years late and vastly over budget – the reality is somewhat different, so yet again we compromise and adapt.

In spite of the fact that there are 5 NH90 productions lines around the world, delivery numbers to the six or so customers with platforms in stock are years behind plan and still only trickling off the line and to suggest recipients’ are very unhappy with their all singing all dancing Hangar Queen’s would be an understatement.

I read that the latest deliveries to the Dutch Navy are for a platform in a "Meaningful Operational Capability" (MOC) configuration. I mean what’s that all about?

Noting a thread on Rotorheads regarding problems associated with in-field composite repairs, can you imagine the nightmare maintenance/quality issues of trying to patch-up a composite structure in Afghanistan where dust and sand works its way into every nook and cranny.

Add to that, issues with the floor, the ramp, door gun positioning, the landing gears suitability for uneven terrain operations, the radar and poor airframe and engine reliability issues, the NH90 is a long way off proving itself as a COMBAT PROVEN platform likely to be chosen by Britain’s elite forces, who won’t be looking for a "Meaningful Operational Capability" platform.

I’ve no doubt the SAS would love new purpose built platforms, but with a cash strapped MoD and a number of performance improvements added to our existing rotary fleet in order to operate in the sandpit, I’d suggest that the powers that be would argue that what you have now is better than what you had before, so get on with it.

Now had the article referred to S-70M’s, then it may have had some credibility.

Lynxman. The A109 replacement was for an NSRW platform, so anything Mil out of the question.

[Wirbelsturm]

Just as an aside I was lucky enough a fair few years back to fly the prototype NH90 and, imho, it was an excellent cab. Far nicer than the Merlin to operate.

I remember that EC were also flying a FBW version around and had the capacity to specifically modify according to customer need. The example given was that the Norwegian test pilot complained that the cabin was too low, a bit like the Blackhawks albeit a little taller. Eurocopters answer was to 'saw' off the roof and add a fillit which raised to roof to more Scandinavian like height requirements.

Can't ever remember Wastelands being so flexible???

Edited to add:

The Lynx has been operating for years in the field with composite panels. Those behind the sliding doors are Nomex I seem to remember, I once had one damaged during operations in foreign (dusty/dirty) fields and we covered it with BDR tape and carried on until Wastelands threw a fit. By that time we had left theatre and had time to glue the requisite repair plug back in.

The GR7/9 is also primarily MMMF and hasn't seemed to have suffered too badly.

[zic]

'Defective' choppers have potential - ADF | Courier Mail (http://www.couriermail.com.au/news/breaking-news/defective-choppers-have-potential-adf/story-e6freonf-1225836222742)

Defence does not know cause of engine failure in grounded Australian MRH-90 helicopter | The Australian (http://www.theaustralian.com.au/news/defence-does-not-know-cause-of-engine-failure-in-grounded-australian-mrh-90-helicopter/story-e6frg8yo-1225868685289)

Helicopter delayed by 'dodgy' parts | Adelaide Now (http://www.adelaidenow.com.au/news/national/helicopter-delayed-by-dodgy-parts/story-e6frea8c-1225873753827)

[wokkamate]

Juliet,

I don't doubt the experience of the Puma force.......

All banter aside, they have done a good job at times in the past, however, perhaps we should be spending more money on expanding the AAC's SF role instead of buying another 'one size fits none' SH platform?

I know, lets buy some MH60's!

As for composite skins, try banging a few holes in it and then do some quick BDR - speed tape is fine for a quick repair but can't beat a bit of wriggly tin and some pop rivets!

:ok:

[Green Flash]

What about the Cougar (or the EC whatever-it-is) if you want a little more capacity in a known-ish cab? Any Cloggy (or even oily) Super Puma drivers out there care to comment?

[penny pincher]

Maybe Wokka Mate doesn't, but the Army does! :}:p

[Finnpog]

What about the Cougar (or the EC whatever-it-is) if you want a little more capacity in a known-ish cab? Any Cloggy (or even oily) Super Puma drivers out there care to comment?

I was going to say "Caracal" for consideration too.

http://www.airplane-pictures.net/images/uploaded-images/2007-12/21/8697.jpg

[helidriver]

Is it true that once a Puma has been modified with the proposed new engines and avionics upgrade it is significantly heaver and therefore has a similar if not less performance?

Does the Cougar have better performance than the Puma once it has been modified?

h

[HaveQuick2]

Presumably SF NH90 was just another non-story or journo rubbish then?

[nice castle]

Who knows? I'm glad we have nothing to do with NH90, I have heard enough to know it would be an epic mistake.

Cue order announcement tomorrow then:}

[NURSE]

will it be properley procured look at the mess the last time a SF dedicated Helicopter was procured!

[NURSE]

BTW isn't it more covert to use a type already in service? Using an odd type like Blackhawk or NH90 just draws attention and you see it and you know its Special forces?

[MTOW]

If HMG wants some NH90s cheap, I suspect the Australians would be very pleased to pass their sparkling new, never been used inventory on to them at a very reasonable price - so they could then do something really novel for the Australian military acquisition team, like buy something that works.