Engine failure short final 737

[Speedwinner]

Hello,

some thoughts required on that:

1. The manouver is highly remote. Hows your tactic to fly this recovery with flaps 15? Any special techniqs? What do the students have to take care?


2. Considering judgement of skill of the trainee. How can this manouver taken into account? As I said, highly remote and not trained every sim. I think 95% would continue with normal flaps to touchdown. What´s your opionion?


Happy training


SW

[Callsign Kilo]

continuing with F30 works fine, just add a little rudder and some extra thrust on the remaining donk and land. To me it seems the more comfortable and indeed sensible method to executing an immediate go around. As you say, the majority of people would continue the approach. It isn't necessary to go to F15 as this will induce an initial sink. Just react to the failure and don't rush it. Go arounds should be practiced as well. Our last RST covered both.

F40 is a different kettle of fish as this requires a configuration change to F15, ensuring manoeuvre margin (white bug) and flap inhibit.

Approach it as a handling exercise to show the capability of the aircraft with an engine failure at short finals with F30 extended. It's not an overly taxing manoeuvre as the aircraft has excellent controllability. Just follow the correct technique with gradual rudder application (in accordance with initial thrust decay and gradual thrust application on the live engine). If it is short finals, then the approach is predominantly flown by visual reference at this stage. This makes it easier. Possibly start 3 miles from the threshold with the A/P still engaged and go through the method of controlling the failure and maintaining a stabilised approach. Then throw in subsequent failures progressively closer to the threshold in manual flight. Practice go arounds from Flap 30 as well. Once the crew is happy, introduce Flap40 approaches. It's a real confidence builder in my opinion. Any previous misconceptions regarding engine failures on final approach should hopefully be removed.

[GlueBall]

Engine failure on final approach in ANY airplane I wouldn't even think about going around; maintain configuration and land, manually if necessary, add rudder and thrust, as required, on remaining engine(s). :ooh:

[ImbracableCrunk]

Good explanation, Capt. Kilo. Why on a F40 landing is it suggested to go to F15 and not F30, I wonder.

[Pugilistic Animus]

you might not meet landing climb gradients below DH/MDA if you are heavy and/or in an obstacle limited environment--landing climb gradients are assumed AEO

[ImbracableCrunk]

So, let me get this straight:

Engine failure w/ F30 = stay at F30.
Engine failure w/ F40 = F15.

I'd think that climb perf on a SE G/A from F30--->F15, etc would be worse than starting at F40, reset to F15 and then on the G/A F1.

Actually, now that leads me to another question. If you went around from F30 on a SE G/A, would you go F30>F15>F1>Fup, or F30>F15>F5>F1>Fup. . . http://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/smilies/badteeth.gif

[Speedwinner]

Thats allright. Made the experience that training that manouver after several years again, in IMC without FD the students had mostly run 2 Go arounds and than got the skill back to fly it.

Same experience somebody else?

[Denti]

The 737NG is certified for one engine out approaches and landings with Flaps 30 up to CAT IIIa. So why change anything when experiencing an engine failure during short final?

Stay at 30 if you have that, consider changing to 30 if you have flaps 40 however do not unstabilize your approach by needless activity. If you have to go around out of flaps 30 just use the normal go-around flap schedule (15, at acceleration height 5, 1, up).

[Speedwinner]

Ok,

but could it be a fail item not to make the attempts to fly a Engine failure Short Final in imc without fd and retract the Flaps to 15? Because its Not checkride item and seldom trained

[de facto]

Engine failure at flaps 30...increase thrust on good engine to maintain your speed...if not possible,retract to flaps 15 and add 15kts(-700s) and 20 kts(800-900s).
All 737s except maybe the 200s will have enough thrust to maintain speed at high gross weight and high field temperature.

---->In case of a go around ,retract to flaps 15.

Warning:you must know your aircraft max weight to achieve the missed approach climb gradient.(Flaps 15,TOGA on remaining engine).It is a dispatch requirement just as a max landing weight/runway landing distance would be).

If you decide to retract to Flaps 15 and then have to Goaround,use normal single engine procedure.

Hope that helps.

[Centaurus]

The subject of Engine Failure on Final Approach for the Classics and NG are comprehensively covered in the 737 Flight Crew Training Manual under Chapter 5 and in my out of date (October 2006) manual at page 5.20 and 5.21. There are always lots of personal opinions and rationalisation - but generally it is best to stick to the manufacturers recommendations in the FTCM. The legal profession will use the FCTM to hang you if you deviate from recommended procedures and you bend the aircraft or hurt someone.

[RAT 5]

KISS:

Captain's discretion (means if it works you're a hero; if it doesn't you're a .....) manitain landing flaps if you think you can maintain landing performace; if not retract to F15 and acclerate to white bug or +20kts and land. If G/A from land flaps then F15, (assuming > F15 for landing). If G/A after retracting to F15 AND at +20kts then F1.
I'm not sure where it differentiates bewteen F30 & F40. For me it was LAND flaps.
If at F15 due SE, and the other one fails then retract to what you like and crash ahead, in a controller manner of course, and receive your medal later.

This thread is very relevant considering what happend at CIA where they attempted to G/A with naff all thrust. Brilliant captaincy to stuff it on the ground and all walk away. And No the pilot was not Sully, and No there are no You Tube videos, and I am ashamed to admit I do not know his name, but it should be up there is lights.

[ImbracableCrunk]

The subject of Engine Failure on Final Approach for the Classics and NG are comprehensively covered in the 737 Flight Crew Training Manual under Chapter 5 and in my out of date (October 2006) manual at page 5.20 and 5.21.

Page 5.28 of the Oct 31, 2008.

Thanks.

[JammedStab]

In the -200, our procedure is to increase thrust, retract flaps to 15, pitch up 4°(or as required) to maintain GS, inhibit the GPWS and declare an emergency. Target airspeed is outer bug(Vref +15). I suppose in windy conditions, approach speed could be higher than VRef+15. I wouldn't think anyone would slow down. Now at flaps 15 if you have to go around, you are in a lower initial drag situation.

[GW_04]

Centaurus :ok:

Rat 5 :ok:

FCTM spells that one out quite simply.

Just a quick note though, we practiced this one in our last SIM near minima in IMC and I can tell you when you add the roughly 20% to the live one and your not IMMEDIATELY and accurately on the rudder, the localizer shots out to the side and it turns into a go around.

Food for thought in a real situation :rolleyes:

[Tee Emm]

and your not IMMEDIATELY and accurately on the rudder, the localizer shots out to the side and it turns into a go around.

That is entirely expected. When close to 200 ft which is a typical Cat One DH or DA (whatever, depending!) the Localiser beam is getting progressively more narrow and seemingly more sensitive. Depending on the runway length among other things the localiser would be around 100 metres wide from edge to edge at the landing runway threshold. Note: Purely a guess but I am sure some maths guru will come up with an accurate figure. You would only have to yaw a few degrees during the intial one-engine inoperative go around manoeuvre to slide outside the localiser width near the threshold and surely only a pedant would fail you for not maintaining the localiser centreline so close to the threshold durng the climb.

[Denti]

Or you just have a nice new shiny autoflight system that actually can cope with an engine failure on its own ;) Yup, that is certainly available in the 737. Just one caveat, you have to have the second autopilot engaged prior to 800ft GND or as some airlines do it fly a dualchannel approach every time.

However, not a bad handling exercise in the simulator.