Gliding-NPPL-JAR PPL-CPL (help!?)

[Kai5555]

Hi, I have a few questions that I can’t find any answers to elsewhere and I was hoping someone here may enlighten me.

I am a glider pilot with approximately 200hrs, I have a ½ share in a glider which I fly regularly. I currently have a good career as an Engineer working for a well known gas turbine manufacturer in the UK but I have aspirations to get my ATPL at some point and change careers, hopefully before I am 30. Dare I say it on here that my gliding is my first love and consumes a large amount of my money, leaving little to get my PPL. I am in the fortunate position that due to my gliding experience I can attain my NPPL with 10hrs in a Touring Motor Glider relatively cheaply, <£1000. I was then planning to convert this to SEP with some differences training. At this point I can act as a tug pilot at our gliding club and effectively build hours for free whilst helping my club out in a much needed role and having some fun at the same time. Occasionally gliders land-out at other gliding clubs in the UK and instead of road retrieving them with their trailer it’s preferable to retrieve them with the tug which would cover some aspects of the required XC flying experience.

The process of converting a NPPL into a JAR PPL is fairly well documented on here for people who took a conventional route, but what concerns me is that I might run into problems converting when the instructor realises that I only did 10hrs instructional in a motor glider and then <5hrs differences training in a SEP. Does anyone think there will be a problem here and what would be the outcome? Would I have to make up the hours anyway meaning that I may as well do them at the start?

With a view to gaining a commercial licence I would take the modular route after gaining my JAR PPL and I’ve gained the required number of hours flying the tug. At some point before my CPL I would need to commit to a career as a pilot and end my engineering career but as you can probably understand I want to keep my options open up to that point.
I can quite quickly build hours by flying the tug at the gliding club on an NPPL and within the year I should be up around the 150hr mark if I volunteer for lots of days, but the question I can’t find the answer to here is, if I am tugging on an NPPL then will my hours count towards the 150 I need before embarking on my CPL, or will I need to complete these hours post gaining my JAR PPL?

Any advice or comments on the problems of my planned route would be much appreciated.

Regards,

Kai Wheeler

[stuclark]

Hi there,

I was in your position a couple of years ago...... i held an NPPL SLMG, (with OSF- Enstone) After a year flying SLMG & SSEPL(Simple single engine piston land) Aircraft (A 3 hr diff training) I converted my NPPL to a JAR PPL (with PFT at Hinton). My only problem was that i required 20 hours with a JAR instructor, - all my SLMG training hours were not!- training with gliding instructors authorised to deliver NPPL SLMG. I fortunately had 15 or so hours JAR instruction on SEP from some scholarships, in the end, it was 5 hrs dual, another QXC and PPL skills test.
The only consideration with hours is that only 30 hours motorglider can count towards the 150 CPL requirement. You could in theory get an NPPL SSEPL, and fly all 150 hours on it, Convert to JAR, and then begin Groundschool.

So importantly, your NPPL training should be carried out by a Jar intructor, so it can count for conversion. Not touting for business, but i have now completed CPL, FI to finnish in 2 weeks, I will then be able to give NPPL SLMG training, as a JAR Instructor. PM me if you wish.

Stu.

[Kai5555]

Hi Stu,

Thanks for answering my post, lots of great information. Looks like my route will work then and should cost me significantly less than a conventional route if I get all my training from a JAR instructor rather than just a BGA approved instructor. Much better to get this sorted than find out half way down the road and getting a surprise!

Thanks for the offer of instruction also, I have some favourable rates with one of the gliding clubs where I used to work so I’ll try and exploit that first but if it fails I’ll get in touch. Where are you based?

Regards,

Kai

[MartinCh]

So, your gliding club will let you fly the tug with bare NPPL off gliding experience?
I know gliding experience is very valuable for tuggie post, but I wouldn't put motorglider 10hr-ish training and couple hours on SEP as enough for tugging.

Most BGA clubs require 100TT on SEP AFAIK. I know it's guidance, not set in stone, but what about the club insurance? Can you be trained dual in Super Cub during actual tows? There are few gliding clubs around Bristol, so can't tell about the fleet.

Chatted with one guy who started as tuggie (different country) at gliding club with maybe 60 hours SEP and he said he sees why the 100hr 'standard' for tugging. He was also glider pilot by the time he did his PPL.

Lastly, why would someone with your job, half share in something nice and sleek, want to work for UK airlines? Each to their own, just wondering. :confused:

[Kai5555]

I've not heard of the 100hrs for tugging, I thought the BGA guidelines states any experience level is sufficient and I've seen quite a few people get checked out fresh from PPL. All gliding clubs in the UK will only allow reasonably experienced glider pilots become a tuggie, (minimum Silver badge and usually 50hrs P1).

Getting checked out for towing is not a trivial thing and that's why they don't base it on experience in terms of hrs. Instead they put you through several hrs of rigorous checks with the duty tug pilot who will not let you perform your first tow until he is happy you are competent and safe. I'd much rather it was that way than some fool who's managed to get 100hrs without killing himself is allowed to fly the tug!


10hrs SLMG and a few hrs SEP does sound very minimal but presumably the CAA have decided that the special dispensation for glider pilots on the number of hrs needed is equivalent of someone who has come fresh and done a PPL in 35-45hrs? I wouldn't like to argue for or against that.

My differences training would also have to include flying tail draggers as that's what we use at Nympsfield where I fly, it is a very tricky site to tow from as it's a ridge top site, rough grass and not all that big and can be VERY rough and turbulent in NW winds. The thoroughness with which they check out tug pilots reflects that. We use a Scout for dual flying when we need to check people out but I don't think you are allowed to be 2 up when towing anymore so your first tow is solo, I used to do loads of tugging dual (unofficial) when I was first learning to fly but the insurers put a stop to that). Most towing is done in a Pawnee because of the power it has, especially in marginal conditions with heavy gliders.

Why change jobs? I fancy a different view from my desk I guess?! Airline salaries go way beyond the level of engineering in the long term and it will give me more time to go and fly my nice and sleek glider!

[MIKECR]

Kai,

'Lasors' is your friend as far as licensing issues/requirements are concerned. You should find the answers to most questions there.

As far as tugging is concerned, if you have 200 hours gliding experience(as you say) and a NPPL with SEP rating then thats more than enough experience in my book to quite happily fly the tug. Even something like a pawnee....very simple to fly, and very benign handling characteristics. Previous gliding experience is always a major plus when it comes to a club looking for a tuggy. Its the fresh PPL's, or even fresh CPL pilots, with no gliding experience, that are the problem. No disrespect to them....but they wouldnt know a thermal, or perhaps a wave bar, if it hit them in the face.

My best advice would be to look at lasors and get an idea of what you need hours/experience wise for CPL etc. Remember that the likes of a multi engine instrument rating(assuming you want to do it at some stage) require minimum cross country hours. Towing gliders will certainly put hours in the logbook but you need to make sure you are also logging the appropriate hours for the likes of licence/ratings issue etc.

Enjoy your tugging though.... i've had many happy hours launching gliders over the years. I fly with an airline now but I still love it when I can get my hands on the tug on the odd occasion and get my fix of stick and rudder!

Oh and when I got my PPL, it was off the back of my bronze C.... or perhaps my silver....I cant quite remember. I certainly didnt have to do the full PPL course though. Thats was a few years ago....perhaps things may have changed now.

[Kai5555]

Many thanks for that, Lasors in indeed my friend, I hadn’t heard of that before but it contains all the answers I need. One thing it does clarify from Stu’s post earlier is that when converting from NPPL to JAR PPL, the 20hrs with a CAA qualified instructor must be flown in a SEP, it appears it’s not sufficient to receive that instruction in a SLMG even if it is from a CAA qualified instructor.

That means that 10hrs SLMG for my NPPL plus 5hrs SEP differences training, plus 20hrs SEP instructor time later to convert to JAR PPL = 35hrs total.

I can do my JAR PPL in 35hrs by getting a reduction in hours from my gliding experience so almost nothing gained other than spreading the cost and doing some of the training in the motorglider at £70/hr instead of £150/hr in SEP

Many thanks for your advice; once again I’ve proved to myself that there are no shortcuts in this world! :)

Kai

[moona]

Hi Kai,

The rules with regards to motorglider hours seem a bit bizarre to me.

I used to have a share in a motorglider which I was hoping to use for hour-building for the CPL. Unfortunately I found from lasors that I couldn't, so I sold the motorglider share and got a share in a TB9.

The motorglider had retractable gear, tail-wheel and a vp prop and hated crosswinds but the hours were deemed unworthy. The Tb9 had none of the above - go figure!