Student Pilot needs advice

[rabidcat]

My first post here and instead of contributing, I am begging for some help. I don't really know where to begin.
I am at about 60hrs r22 time
I do 2hrs a day almost every day of lessons (fly or grnd)
I study my butt off every night
I try to be a sponge in the classroom and outside

I have a fairly inexperienced flight instructor who is very nice and tries very hard, but just can't seem to help me get down autorotation for anything. This particular instructor had an issue early in the new job by having had an overspeed with a student doing an auto. I am pretty sure that because of that incident, my instructor (in my very humble opinion) seems too jumpy to let me actually complete the entire autorotation maneuver without any input from the left seat. Now, I have been at these autos for over 2 months now and it seems I can do them O.K. when it is someone else instructing (or letting me have the reigns), but not hardly at all with this instructor.

At this point I feel like I would have been a private pilot 20hrs ago with my former CFI, and saved me a $100000000 dollars. I used to be much more confident in my ability to progress and be a capable enough pilot for my level of experience; now I am not sure I'm even cut out for this or if I should even be getting in the solo seat. The shameful part is, I used to be able to do autos...

How long did it take everyone else to learn this stuff? It just isn't all that dang hard right?:confused:

[Epiphany]

You are paying for this I presume? If so you should ask for a change of instructor asap. All you have to do is talk to him/her first so there are no hard feelings and see the CFI. Seem you have given things a try.

[Pandalet]

If you're paying for the service, and an instructor isn't working out for you (for whatever reason), ask for another! Your money, your call.

[stringfellow]

please dont despair!!!! i too had an instructor i neither got on with of found helpful... by the time i raised the issue i was too long into my course and was advised to stay put.

in hindsight i should have changed straight away but i was a humble student who knew no better. you are paying for this remember, ask in a polite but firm manner for a time served older insructor who really wants to be there. please do and let us know how you get on you will be amazed how well you progress.

[stringfellow]

and by the way since then i have flown with some great instructors and it has been a really enjoyable journey.

[Dave Sharpe]

as a 22 Pilot of several years and about 180 hours my suggestoon would be to change instructors for at least that aspect for you are going to chuck money at it with very little (if any) progress which will become demoralising

[rabidcat]

I appreciate all the advice. I may go ahead and finish up the last of my Pvt and switch over to a new instructor for Ist and Com. It is a small community, and there are alot of factors I omitted from my situation, which is the main reason why I have been hesitant to switch. I am not interested in burning any bridges in the copter world, and training is a team effort. Just feels a bit wrong to 'step out' on my teammate. Meditate on this... I will.

What were the main plateaus that you all experienced in your training? And how did you manage to overcome them?

[spinwing]

Mmmm ...

Rabid ....


You MUST go and see the Chief Flying Instructor of you training organisation and have a heart to heart discussion about this ....

I agree with Epiphany on this you MUST have a change of Instructor ... at least for this training sequence ...

Autorotations are considered to be very important and unfortunately for a budding commercial pilot ... the 'basic auto' as trained by an inexperienced instructor will just not do .... (and I shall not to go off on a tangent about my views on what level of experience a pilot should have before being allowed to instruct in Helicopters) ..... :rolleyes:

Good luck ...

[Retro Coupe]

What were the main plateaus that you all experienced in your training? And how did you manage to overcome them?

When you're learning a new skill and it doesn't matter what it is, you'll experience plateaus, it's only natural. Whether it's learning to hover, flying a decent circuit, controlling the aircraft in autorotation, navigating etc. I bet all pilots who post in this forum have experienced them at some time or other. The best way to overcome them is to practice and have some self belief.

As for your personal circumstance, I agree with others who advise you to change instructor if only when you need to practice autos. All instructors have to start somewhere, but being taught by an inexperienced instructor is like "the blind being led by the short sighted" and is not giving you the firm foundation you need to become a proficient pilot. Your instructor sounds like they need some help from the CFI to regain their mojo.

[rabidcat]

Please, I would love to hear your rant. I am going to be an instructor one these days... If you don't mind humoring me, I would appreciate it. Thanks for the reply

[Walking Ballast]

Rabid

I was having similar issues with an instructor, but this chap had over 5000 hours before he became an instructor, and you would never do anything as well as he could, I found it very frustrating that halfway thru a manoeuvre he would call “taking over” and then proceed to tell me that my skills were not up to speed and that I was not suitable to wash an aircraft let alone try to learn to fly. I had a lot of self doubt and questioned if I should continue.

It literally came down to one day I decided to pull the pin, but I had a few dollars credit in my account left so why not fly it off. My regular instructor was off sick and I had another instructor who told me he had no issue with my abilities and thought that I was fine and would make a competent pilot.

Then I found out that several of the other students had had the same problem with my regular instructor and had left or moved schools. I had a word to the CFI, changed instructors and went from there. Licensed, happy, now working....and I have proven many many times that I am suitable to wash aircraft.

Upshot is, talk to your school, your money, your time and effort, and you may avoid an issue for someone else in the future. Treat it as your first foray into CRM by discussing the issues with your CFI.

All the best.

WB

[AirWon]

I don't understand this idea of changing this guy just for this particular stage of your training. If this guy sucks then he sucks!!
Burning bridges is not even an issue at your stage of the game. I'm not sure about this "team" issue you're having. He's your instructor, you're paying him, or the school, and you're not happy. Move on....
Now,......if the details that you're omitting include the fact that you live in his basement and he's married to your mum...well then that IS a problem.
On a more serious, and hopefully helpful note, don't fly or do ground every day, and don't study every night. Take a break. You're not studying to be an astronaut...:ok:

[thecontroller]

This 'issue' comes up a lot in training. Fly with ten different instructors and you will get ten different ways of doing things, and ten different "personalities" and abilities from the instructors.

Yes, a decent auto is hard to teach to people, esp when you are a new-ish instructor (who has suffered an overspeed in the past and needs to keep his job). But, also some students just have a real problem with them and some of them blame the instructor. Some students think they are better than they really are, some instructors aren't that good at teaching either!

I would have a quiet word with your instructor, tell him you feel you would benefit from doing a few flights with a different instructor, no hard feelings, nothing personal, your confidence is gone a bit, you're worried about money etc. Yes, he might be a little 'upset' but he should understand that teaching/instructing is all about personalities and the student should feel comortable with his instructor. Just be friendly and tactful and it should be ok.

On the subject of R22 RPM in autos, the key is to keep the 60 kt attitude. The R22 RPM is very sensitive to attitude changes, keep your eyes OUTSIDE, do not stare at the airspeed dial. Set the attitude and hold it, then control the RPM with the lever. Start the flare when the RPM is at the bottom of the green arc, as you know it will rise in the flare.

My advice (I'm sure others have different techniques) ... If you are having trouble with RPM control, go up to 3000+ feet, enter an auto and just play around with the RPM, see what effect cyclic inputs/attitude has on autos, do some turns, get comfortable holding the 60kt attitude and managing the RPM etc. It's a lot easier than trying to learn this while heading for the ground at 500 feet.

Good luck.

[spinwing]

Mmmmm ....

...... My advice (I'm sure others have different techniques) ... If you are having trouble with RPM control, go up to 3000+ feet, enter an auto and just play around with the RPM, see what effect cyclic inputs/attitude has on autos, do some turns, get comfortable holding the 60kt attitude and managing the RPM etc. It's a lot easier than trying to learn this while heading for the ground at 500 feet .....

This is exactly what your instructor should be doing .... as well as teaching the effects of varying speeds in the 'auto' to achieve different glide angles/distances travelled etc ....

One of the disadvantages of having a relatively inexperienced instructor is that perhaps he does not know what he should be teaching ?

I wonder how just how well the Chief CFI is supervising his schools syllabus if this is going on?

[chopjock]

On the subject of R22 RPM in autos, the key is to keep the 60 kt attitude. The R22 RPM is very sensitive to attitude changes, keep your eyes OUTSIDE, do not stare at the airspeed dial. Set the attitude and hold it, then control the RPM with the lever. Start the flare when the RPM is at the bottom of the green arc, as you know it will rise in the flare.

If I was given that advice when I was learning I would have accepted it because I didn't know any better at the time.
Now I know better and I only need to keep a minimum of 60kts attitude when approaching the ground, if higher than 500 feet it is not necessary. (you should be varying the airspeed to either stretch or shorten your aiming point). Also during the flare I would raise the lever a little to contain the rpm, no need to let it rise.

[thecontroller]

As I said everyone has their own way of doing things.

For basic autos I think you should be aiming for a 60 kt attitude, this helps keep the RPM management much easier. Keep it simple. When the student has got that, then you can move onto autos at different speeds to lengthen/shorten the glide.

The biggest problem I used to see with students is that they would move the cyclic back and forth to "chase" the airspeed, and the RPM would go bonkers, then they would pump the lever to try to control it. Then it becomes 5 times more difficult than it should be.

[spinwing]

Mmmm ...

controller ... O'l chap ...

The problem here seems to be rectifying an instructors faults .... not fixing the imaginary faults this student might/might not have !!


:hmm:

[thecontroller]

I think if we all try hard enough we could teach him to fly online. We will save him a fortune. :)

[helipan]

Best to change the instructor before you waste another $:mad:
Good training is everything in going forward in your first job!

helipan :)

[oibal60]

Howdy,
As a newly-minted PPL(H) (Robinson R-22) :-) -- I agree with the folks here. You NEED to 'slide over' to another instructor -- and here's the kicker -- to an instructor who's not "constantly guarding the controls" but who gives you, over your headphones, the necessary pointers that results in a successful maneuver.
Also agree with taking the ship up to 3000' - and SLOWLY lowering the collective - then establishing a 60kt. attitude and seeing for yourself!!! - that once you 'set' the attitude/airspeed and 'set' the collective so that the RPM is in the green - that you can, literally, hold "that" for a really, really long time. It then 'sticks' in your noggin that "chasing" the needles is a whole waste of time -- instead, just 'set' it and 'monitor it' as you descend. SMALL inputs is all that's needed. Emphasis on SMALL!
If everything else (i.e. other maneuvers) is going swimmingly -- sounds to me like you are ready for your 'final prog check' or 'checkride' itself -- and all you need to do is be able to 'on demand' (do) several (let's say 3) "straight-in" autos - one after the other - and each within PTS tolerances.
I personally found that if you can do the maneuvers - on demand - and do three of them - in sucession -- then you are 'ready'.
Good luck -- and remember...

Down collective (slowly!)
Right Pedal
Aft cyclic
"Baby" check (of the collective -- because the descent AND your aft cyclic input WILL make the RPM's "go up".)

..and then just...

"RPM -- airspeed -- spot" -- using GENTLE inputs

until the point when you should be starting the flare. If the RPM needle is 'top of the green' -- then 'check' the collective so as to bring it down to the bottom of the green -- because when you pull back on cyclic for the flare - she'll "spike" -- and it's a lot better to 'spike' from green into the yellow than spike from yellow into the red ! :-O

Adjust the 'agressiveness' of the flare depending on the winds. If the winds are zero or very light - then you'll have to flare 'a lot'. If the winds are 'high' - then you should 'baby flare' first - then increase the flare so that you 'dissipate energy' rather than balloon.

Then pitch forward -- and as you're pitching forward -- roll the throttle back on so that the needles are 'encouraged' to join -- and then pull on the collective (and add left pedal) so as to end up about 5' away from the earth.

Yep, yep, I know, autos from 700' or so are over lickety-split - and thus, there's very little time to - not only complete the maneuver safely - but to also LEARN -- BUT -- trust me, we've all been there -- and it will come.

Cordially,
Gerry
CPL-A/S-MEL-IA
PPL(H) <-- :-)

[fly911]

Early learning is very important. If you learn wrong, it will be hard to change later. You realy want to avoid that. And at least let this be a lesson to you. Never accept an instructor that is assigned to you. It's probably the one that is sitting around. Make it very plain that you want to speak with several instructors before you make a decision, just to be sure that you have a good raport. The right instructor can provide twice the value for your dollar (or yen, or rubel) as the wrong one. I can't advise you on how to do this gracefully, but just do it. More is at stake than you can imagine.

[Two's in]

I am not interested in burning any bridges in the copter world

You're not burning bridges - you're burning your own money. Chop him altogether and get the sort of confidence back that a 60 hour student needs.

[rabidcat]

I really appreciate everyone's input here. It is great to have an objective source of opinions on how to handle a situation like this. I didn't expect to have so much help and input. You guys are great. Thanks.

[spinwing]

Mmm ...

I'm not so sure I agree with the folowing ....

.... Never accept an instructor that is assigned to you. It's probably the one that is sitting around. .....

A generalisation I hope .... actually the instructor you need is the somewhat 'grizzelled' almost worn out 'silver back' lounging(relaxing?) around the coffee machine ... who has been around the block so many times he's probably lost count .... BUT who will talk to you around that coffee machine till you have all the information he has to offer that WILL keep you alive ... He knows he is not God ... that got beat out of him eons ago (probably by his 2nd wife :}) so he knows what you need to know and will pass it on to you freely ... he does not consider you a competitor for a job ..'cos he knows it will take you years to accumulate the knowledge and ability he has ... but he will pass on to you the tools you will need to learn to survive!

Good luck ... :D

[rabidcat]

mm ...

I'm not so sure I agree with the folowing ....

.... Never accept an instructor that is assigned to you. It's probably the one that is sitting around. .....

A generalisation I hope .... actually the instructor you need is the somewhat 'grizzelled' almost worn out 'silver back' lounging(relaxing?) around the coffee machine ... who has been around the block so many times he's probably lost count .... BUT who will talk to you around that coffee machine till you have all the information he has to offer that WILL keep you alive ... He knows he is not God ... that got beat out of him eons ago (probably by his 2nd wife http://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/smilies/badteeth.gif) so he knows what you need to know and will pass it on to you freely ... he does not consider you a competitor for a job ..'cos he knows it will take you years to accumulate the knowledge and ability he has ... but he will pass on to you the tools you will need to learn to survive!

Very interesting statement. We have an instructor just like that, our CP as a matter of fact. He took me out for autos in the beginning when I was having LOTS of trouble and gave me the "real life autorotation scenario." At the end of it, I could do autos at different speeds, turning, straight, OGE (:eek:) and with even using only the collective or the cyclic to maintain speed and RRPM. At that point, I had it. Got some great advice from the pilot who has had the situation really happen. Too bad he isn't there to be an instructor... I was quite confident and comfortable at the end of that one. Any fear or hesitation with autos was gone after that. Since that lesson, all down hill :{

These smileys are cool...

[fly911]

A generalization it was. But I do feel that before you commit to an instructor, you should make sure that you click. I had an instructor that would not take his hands off the yoke. He would say "You're flying the plane" but he put artificial limits on how far I could turn the wheel. Instead of telling me that I'm reaching my altitute range and allow me to correct it, I would feel his resistance on the controls, preventing me from going any higher. I was allowed to learn nothing. I agree that the best instructor may just be sitting aroud, but it also may be the guy waiting for his first student. Not that that's a bad thing as long as you click. An instructor should build confidence in a student. Sorry for any confusion I may have caused.
Good luck.
Mike
ATP/CFII/Heli
Comm-Inst.ASMEL
:ok: