EK orders 32 more A380's(Merged)

[Rather Be Skiing]

I didn't think they would find use for 50+ 380s, but...

Emirates Airline expects profit to fly past $1 billion this year - The National Newspaper (http://www.thenational.ae/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20100607/BUSINESS/706079906/1005)

[Oblaaspop]

JUST been announced an EXTRA 32 A380's have been ordered at Berlin by EK. That brings the total to.........90!!!!!!!!!:eek:

[SKY's4ME]

Crazy times ahead for emirates! Pilot recruitment will have to rise dramatically to keep up with the pace of expansion planned.

Out of interest will there new recruitment drive cause an exodous from lowcosts in Europe/States?

[Cloud Bunny]

Out of interest will there new recruitment drive cause an exodous from lowcosts in Europe/States?

Might do. However most of the people I fly with on a daily basis say things like "I'd go anywhere but the ME"!!
I on the other hand could be on my way if the package is good enough. Maybe not to EK, more likely EY. We'll see.......
As a side question whats with the bit at the end of that article that says Emirates has 50 737s on order? Assume thats a mis-print and should read Fly Dubai has an order for 50 737s?

[Fart Master]

Well here it is, 32 more 380's ordered in Berlin worth more than $11Bn


ILA: Emirates orders 32 more Airbus A380s (http://www.flightglobal.com/articles/2010/06/08/342948/ila-emirates-orders-32-more-airbus-a380s.html)

[alwayzinit]

With regards to where all the "drivers" will come from..............

If the Rescue Packages for UK Ltd and other EU countries are going to be as tough as needed then few in the EU will have the spare cash to take overseas holidays,as a result the holiday companies and their airlines are going to have a really tough time.

Supply and Demand will dictate that not all of the holiday carriers will survive.

And a job is a job even in the sandpit.

Looks like the 70s all over again.



So EK will get the pilots ..........................just wonder who will be filling the back of the aircraft:eek:

[The Turtle]

i just can't get my head around this...

[ramiyns]

Emirates orders a new 32 of A380 In the face of the Aviation downturn.
Which brings the total order of the A380 to 90.
At the same time lowering the bar for the new hire,
wondering!How many pilots will they need over the next 2 to 3 years?
I think the turning point is getting closer,Then time will again be on the pilot's side.


Happy Times

[Payscale]

Emirates orders a further 32 Airbus A380s

Dubai based Emirates Airline has ordered a further 32 A380s from Airbus, taking their total firm orders for the iconic flagship of the 21st century to 90 aircraft. The order has a list price of US$ 11.5 billion. The agreement was signed in a ceremony today at the Berlin Air Show witnessed by German Chancellor Angela Merkel, by Emirates Airline Group Chairman and CEO His Highness Sheikh Ahmed Bin Saeed Al-Maktoum, and Airbus President and CEO Tom Enders

“This latest order, adding to 58 A380s previously ordered, affirms Emirates’ strategy to become a world leading carrier and to further establish Dubai as a central gateway to worldwide air travel. The A380 is our flagship in terms of passenger comfort, innovation, operating and environmental efficiency and revenue generation. Our latest commitment signals Emirates’ confidence in the growth to come in a thriving aviation sector,” said H.H.Sheikh Ahmed Bin Saeed Al- Maktoum.

“Emirates has supported the development of the A380 from the earliest days, and today’s order - the single largest A380 order ever - is the best endorsement I can imagine. On behalf of all of us at Airbus, we thank Emirates for their confidence and support. The A380 is indeed a remarkable eco-efficient aircraft, a profit generator for airlines and a great flying experience for passengers,” said Tom Enders.

Following delivery of their first A380 in July 2008, Emirates now operates ten aircraft serving eight international destinations including London Heathrow, Toronto, Paris, Jeddah, Bangkok, Seoul, Sydney and Auckland. The airline expects the list of destinations to increase as more and more airports around the world are A380 ready. Emirates’ tenth A380, received on 7 June 2010, is on static display at the ILA Berlin Air Show. All Emirates’ A380 are powered by Engine Alliance GP7200 engines and delivered from Hamburg. In Germany more than 30 major suppliers are directly feeding into the A380 programme. The A380 programme alone adds an estimated 40,000 direct, indirect and induced German jobs.

The world’s largest passenger aircraft, the Airbus A380, is also the quietest and most fuel efficient, demonstrably consuming less than three litres of fuel per passenger per 100 kilometres. Nearly 5.5 million passengers have already enjoyed the new experience of flying on-board one of the 30 A380s in service, taking them to 20 major international destinations worldwide in unequalled comfort.
The A380 in-service fleet has accumulated over 15,000 commercial flights, and its operators have unanimously praised its popularity with passengers, higher load factors and superior profitability. With a range of 8,300nm / 15,400 km, and seating from 400 to more than 800 passengers, the A380 is the answer to alleviate traffic congestion at busy airports, cope with growth and minimise environmental impact. A380 firm orders now stand at 234 from 17 customers.

[apron]

Is this likely to enhance command for Airbus drivers and possibly slow/halt progression in years to come on the 777?

[alexm320]

apron, i sent u a pm, hope u can reply!!

[Wizofoz]

Is this likely to enhance command for Airbus drivers and possibly slow/halt progression in years to come on the 777?

If we took every A380 Airbus built, it would still take 9 years to fill the order. Flat out I don't think we'll get more than7 or 8 A380s a year. Yes, it will give the Airbus guys a much needed boost, but it's more likely the A350 will be the real mover on that side.

As to the 777, I believe Farnborough is the venue for THAT fleet announcement....

[Willie Everlearn]

32 more A380s :eek: You must be joking :confused:

Remember the financial collapse of 2008, anyone?
Abu Dhabi bailing the Emirate of Dubai out?
This is either the financial end of Dubai, Emirates Airline, or Airbus. I can`t imagine anyone buying into the massive profit reports from this airline year after year. Something just simply doesn`t add up. Rarely has. :ugh:

Ahh, what the heck. This is the most unbelievable airline in the world.
What do I know anyway???

Willie :ok:

[RPG]

Thankyou for your balanced posts re EK, I have been reading with interest.
It seems EK's expansion will be moreover with Airbus aircraft, majority A350.
Will the A350 do ultra long haul and similar patterns to the 777 ?
Is it true the A330 crew rosters are mainly night turnarounds to regional destinations ?
Please keep the informative posts coming.

[Wizofoz]

Remember the financial collapse of 2008, anyone?


You mean the year EK only made a $500 000 000 profit?

Abu Dhabi bailing the Emirate of Dubai out?


And taking a security over the one good asset Dubai had- EK!!

I can`t imagine anyone buying into the massive profit reports from this airline year after year.

How abour Price Waterhouse, who audit those results?

What do I know anyway???


....... I don't have an answer to that one.

[Wizofoz]

RPG,

Well, we'll see! The A350 is no more than a Cad-Cam program at the moment, if Airbus don't get it out on time, I suspect EK will tell them to stick it and get more 777s, possibly 787s as well.

The A330 rosters are terrible at the moment. the 777 is taking over all the ULR flights, so, yes, they are doing the brunt of the night turn-arounds.

I don't know what routes in particular will be A350, but I think it's more medium-haul than ULR.

[GMDS]

First, His Highness has confirmed repeatedly that none of EK has been traded or given as any
kind of security for the bailout from the southern Cousins. He was on the contrary not amused
at all (politely put) about the traffic rights pouching of them lately (ORD, NRT).
This huge order seems to me as a highly political signal to the World: Don’t discard Dubai and
don’t take advantage of its slip. For Europe such an order could not come at a better time.
I believe it was most certainly arranged with ample kickbacks, like landing rights or other touristic
or economic deals with Dubai. Astutely done at the time when a recovery looks dawning.
On the other hand I believe this is a punch into the stomach of Abu Dhabi. We all know that
the Dubai bailout was not to help some kind of brother or cousin out of pathetic bloodline sympathy.
They knew bl@@dy well that if one of them goes down, the other will follow suit, too interwoven
are the systems. But as EY was only set up for the tit-for-tat little ego war between sheikies,
it would be tolerated to suck its Daddy’s wallet dry as long as it did not hamper too much EK.
But as EY started the unfair poaching game at the very time Dubai was in trouble, the latter had two choices:
Give in and hand EK on a tablet as “security”, that would have been taken in the very moment they signed, or to throw in the gauntlet. That’s what they did and the pressure is now on EY (and Qatar).

The order is huge, and it’s a gamble. But considering the situation it might just work out fine for Dubai.

[ferris]

They knew bl@@dy well that if one of them goes down, the other will follow suit, too interwoven
are the systems What utter garbage. Abu Dhabi has the largest sovereign fund in the world (or near enough to). Dubai has a sea of debt they are offering 30 cents on the dollar to their desperate creditors.
You seem to be trying to spin this as 'Dubai is the big player, and Abu Dhabi is the pretender!' Who do you think you are kidding?
This smells MUCH MORE like Airbus realising that Dubai could drag it down. They have no choice but to back EK. In for a penny...
I'd be interested in Abu Dhabi (as the de-facto owners of EK via Dubai Inc debt) how the dividend payments are going to be maintained with such a large capital requirement- or is that the game? IPO, anyone?

[Wizofoz]

IPO, anyone?

Inevitable IMHO.

[GMDS]

Thanks for the garbage, ferris.

Just look at Europe and see how interwoven their system is. They can't afford to let Greece go bankrupt for the exact same reason Abu Dhabi can't let Dubai go down the drain.This is not my spin, but economical reality, especially with shared currencies.

The two airline companies play a game somewhat parallel to the national economy, again, just as do airlines in Europe an America, allthough they play an integral part of it. Here, and only here, EK is definitely the big player and EY the pretender.

Your presumtion that Abu Dhabi is the de facto owner of EK is more of a spin. Who in their right mind would "own" a company that makes billions and in the same portfolio hold another similar one that makes the same amount backwards with a third of the size???? Not even pride would lead to such stupid behavior as it anihilates profit. If your presumption would be true, one company would vanish quite rapidly.

[shazar]

Thanks for the news in this regard.

It is nonetheless a time to repeat the question of fair competition in the middle east and in particular gulf region. I would like to see Emirates operating without the financial backing and unlimited political monopoly from Dubai government to perceive the real strength of this airline. It reminds the old Arabic dictum; if you have a trick, then cheat. There are many times examples on this forum how Emirates practice deep and unfair competition and advantage!

Could European airlines or other neighbouring governments such as Bahrain and Oman with high unemployment among nationals and less strong financial muscles to do the same? Absolutely not. Emirates, Eithad and Qatar airways more or less pursues similar business practices.

I think Emirates announcement for orders of 32 A380 and alike previous ones makes a good propaganda for a weak tribal mentality unable to compete fairly. A tribal mentality can never compete fairly because fair fight means lose risk. Emirates (tribe) enjoys self-protection and impunity from anti-trust lawyers and laws organising fair competition. (remember the case of Dubai Int’l Ports in the US; they were not able to win the bid for security issues)

I think Emirates is wishy-washy airlines, foolproof and not an upfront to defend its arguments.

[BusyB]

As I understand Abu Dhabi is the senior Emirate and can authorise traffic rights within the UAE. Poaching doesn't seem the right word for that.:}

[ferris]

Just look at Europe and see how interwoven their system isAre you seriously trying to equate the UAE with Europe? for the exact same reason Abu Dhabi can't let Dubai go down the drain.What reason is that, exactly? I'd say Abu Dhabi can let Dubai go "down the drain", whatever that means. Dubai having to announce publicly that it couldn't pay it's debts effectivelymeant it was down the drain. The 'rescue funds' from Abu Dhabi merely allowed an orderly restructuring (read; bankruptcy procedure on a "state scale") of debts. What do you think the cousins stood to gain with accepting Dubai paper to the tune of 10 BILLION dollars? Dubai gained TIME, but they OWE AD THAT MONEY. Is that totally lost on you? Subsequently, the order went out to "send all income to the govt". What do you think that is for? If all the money EK makes is heading into the AD coffers, who do you think owns the airline- even if it is in a defacto fashion? Not even pride would lead to such stupid behaviorAre you kidding me? You don't see any evidence of stupid behavior here? Especially wrt money?

I'm with you, Wiz. The capital requirements make an IPO inevitable. If your presumption would be true, one company would vanish quite rapidly. Perhaps the access issue is the only thing having prevented that already?

[Oblaaspop]

LR 3,

Mate, where do I begin with destroying the complete crap you just spouted??

For a start, when (in the last decade) was overtime EVER paid at 71 hours???? You and I both know that it was 78, so why blatantly lie? What are you trying to prove??? Yes I know it has changed for the worse, but for F@ck sake at least try to sound a little credible.......

Utilities paid for... ALL GONE???????? Yet again, you are speaking poo!! Until this week, the company paid 21,800 DHS towards utilities (hardly a drop in the ocean). Check your mail box, they have now said that NO ONE will now be billed for the extra as only 11% of households came in over that limit.

Rotating 5 month roster was still there the last time I looked????? So again something else that's hardly ALL GONE.

You have had to pay 10% towards the kids education for at least the last 7 years. So what's your point?? How much of your income tax back home went towards education???

I'm interested to see your other points, who knows, you might actually get one right.......... But if the majority of your posts are anything to go by, I seriously doubt it!!!

I'll say it again for the hard of understanding, or for those with a IQ of 4: By all means bring up points and gripes that are genuine, and that need bringing to the attention of the wider audience..... FATIGUE for one, but for Allah's sake, don't come out with stuff that simply isn't true, or you will run the risk of making us ALL look like TW@T's..... Fortunately, on this occasion, it's only you that looks like one:E

[GMDS]

I am overwhelmed by the wisdom on this site.

I'd say Abu Dhabi can let Dubai go "down the drain"

Ask any first term political economics student about this statement's worth.

As I understand Abu Dhabi is the senior Emirate and can authorise traffic rights within the UAE. Poaching doesn't seem the right word for that

It is the UAE GCAA's authority to give traffic rights, not Abu Dhabi's. If AD would dictate as you pretend, then my argument just gains in weight.
In respect to poaching, you obviously don't know the context: EK prepared the field for ORD flights and when they were ready, EY simply started them up on that. That was an insider job and would be sanctioned in any other confederation.

I would like to see Emirates operating without the financial backing and unlimited political monopoly from Dubai government

So let me recapitulate: One says Dubai is bankrupt, the other talks about "financial backing" (remember: we're still on 90 A380s). One says AD dictates all, the other talks about unlimited political monopoly from Dubai.

Time to leave this site

[4HolerPoler]

Cheers mate - thanks for your valuable contribution :ok:

4HP

[aeroground]

Plenty of parking spaces in Al Maktoum international

[Wizofoz]

. I would like to see Emirates operating without the financial backing and unlimited political monopoly from Dubai government to perceive the real strength of this airline.

In what way do you percieve that EK has "Financial backing" from the Dubai Government. EK has been profitable and self funding, returning dividends TO the Dubai Goevernment, since its second year of operation.

Also, what do you mean by "Political Monopoly"? Traffic rights? Every country in the world negotiates traffic rights to be as advantageous to it's own econnomy as possible. Look at the situation with Canada. And in that regard, traffic rights granted to the UAE have to be shared with Etihad, whilst the UAE has an open skies policy.

EKs strenghts are geographic position and relativley cheap labour who do not pay income tax. It doesn't need and doesn't get subsidies from it's owners, rather the opposite is true!

[Immigrant]

You have had to pay 10% towards the kids education for at least the last 7 years.

From EK Web
.........................
The eligibility of the following benefits is dependant upon the applicant’s unique personal circumstances:

• Education Support Allowance
Financial support towards the payment of core tuition fees is provided to staff in more senior positions. It is intended as a contribution towards the overall expenses the employee may incur for their children’s education.

.........................
"...s provided to staff in more senior positions." :confused:

[White Knight]

"...s provided to staff in more senior positions."

Yes - that includes pilots too (amazingly in this day and age:})

[fliion]

Oblaaspop.

Thank you for correcting LR3's misinformation. I would not have the energy to correct the constant drivvle that he posts.

Add to it his complete lack of prefessionalism on pprune - its no wonder that our profession has been degraded by those of his ilk.

Sad

f.

[atpcliff]

Hi!

If EK is to avoid a MASSIVE crew shortage, they will HAVE to improve the T&Cs of the current pilots, to keep them at EK.

Just filling the new pilot seats, in today's current aviation upturn, in conjunction with the massive downturn in the numbers of pilots now being produced in the US, will be difficult. If EK can't keep the pilots they have, look for LOTS of planes to be sitting idle for lack of crews, down the road.

cliff
LFW

[Red Soxs]

Would EK ever look at a 25 year old guy who is now at a US regional with about 3000 hours, which 2000 of them are SIC in the CRJ-200? Is it even worth filing out the application?

[fatbus]

The slight upturn in the market (US) and you think EK is going to have difficulty getting 700 pilots because the US wont be able to provide. Got news for you - there just happens to be some a few countries besides the US that might provide some pilots.

6 years ago EK only had 2 US pilots and just managed fine without.

[atpcliff]

Hi!

Is TyphoonPilot here on FI???????????? EK MAY have PIC limits: All the CRJ guys I have heard of being interviewed were PICs. They DO have age limits, but they are NOT published on their hiring website...it is "secret". So they may also have "secret" PIC limits????

cliff
LFW

[Wizofoz]

Would EK ever look at a 25 year old guy who is now at a US regional with about 3000 hours, which 2000 of them are SIC in the CRJ-200? Is it even worth filing out the application?

At the moment, no, the minimums are the minimums and it's 4000hrs, 2000hrs Jest, OR 2500TT on "Modern, multi pilot Airliners" which is basically 737EFIS of bigger.

But watch this space, and, as soon as the hour-o-meter ticks over 4000, you will be considered.

[MosEisley]

6 years ago EK only had 2 US pilots and just managed fine without.

Thanks for proving the point. Where do you think the majority of pilots have come from in the past 6 years since Americans now make up the second most populous nationality among the pilots?

[shazar]

Indeed, Emirates has financial and political backing from Dubai government. I am not the only who say this, Qantas made many statements on Emirates. Please see this link http://edition.cnn.com/2005/BUSINESS/11/03/qantas.emirates/ (http://edition.cnn.com/2005/BUSINESS/11/03/qantas.emirates/)

Also, CEO of Gulf Air made an implicit statement about Emirates, Etihad and Qatar Airways 2 to 3 weeks ago. Gulf CEO was President of the Arab Air Carriers Organisation (AACO) and Chairman of the International Air Transport Association (IATA) board of governors until June 2009. So, he does not talk nonsense.


Please review my previous posts on this site where I listed many examples of unfair competition practices adopted by Emirates. You even stated your good-self that Dubai government negotiates traffic rights to meet its economic needs, i.e., basically not abiding to established formal rules. They are making it cherry-pick. I recall very well 4 to 6 years ago Dubai authorities denied granting landing rights to airlines offering fares lower than Emirates (this was published in local press by Editor of a Bahraini newspaper).


I thank you for the example about traffic rights for Etihad with Canada. But Abdu Dhabi or Etihad is not like Dubai or Emirates, are they? Please read this link
http://www.calgaryherald.com/business/Canada+fights+Emirates+push+flights+Calgary/2665068/story.html (http://www.calgaryherald.com/business/Canada+fights+Emirates+push+flights+Calgary/2665068/story.html)

In early 2010, UAE asked Canadian authorities to grant Emirates greater access to Canada in exchange for extending permission for the Canadian Forces to stay at Camp Mirage, a Gulf base that serves as a crucial jump-off point to Afghanistan. What politics has to do with commercial issue here? Is this not lobbying to get way with business? Emirates official declined to give comment on this issue because he knows very well his airline depends on monopoly strategies of Dubai government.

The situation reminds me about gulf government affirmation that their sovereign funds operate on commercial grounds, while the true that the people behind them use diplomatic passports in Europe to move easily and avoid paying taxes!

Neither UAE no any GCC has open sky policy. Monopoly does not create excellence for any company, does it? It makes money because you secure all the required yard sticks but when the game conditions change, we all perceive the difference. An athlete who runs using steroids is not like someone running without it, right?

http://www.financialpost.com/story.html?id=2663385 (http://www.financialpost.com/story.html?id=2663385)

Bahrain has granted private sector to run Bahrain Air rather than giving support to its loss-making Gulf Air. Kuwait privatised its national airline Kuwait Airways and allowed private sector to run Jazeera Airways and Wataniya Airways. What did Dubai do? They reverted with fly-dubai subsidiary after emergence of many economy-based companies. This was predicted by MEED many years ago.


I am not saying Emirates has low demand globally, it does, but this huge amount of profit comes from unfair competition, which in fact say that no competition exist! how Emirates is able to make huge profits when more than 90% of airlines make losses! Is this magic? especially Dubai is being hit hard by the financial crisis and made a statement that it is on default by asking delay to pay its debit.


Please do not tell me that a tribal mentality can fight fairly because a tribal person will only fight when he is stronger and knows his competitors are weaker.

[ekwhistleblower]

Of course Qantas and Air Canada have nothing to gain from mud slinging.

Subsidy - myths and facts | Public Affairs | About Emirates | Emirates Canada (http://www.emirates.com/ca/English/about/public_affairs/subsidy_myths_facts.aspx)

Here is the other side from EK, as they say there are always 3 sides to every story.

[Wizofoz]

So basically your entire argument consists of quoting what Emirates less sucessful competitors say about it, whilst they argue with their governments to restrict free trade, and that is an example of EMIRATES employing unfair trading practices?

Emirates may be wholly owned by the Dubai government, but it does not attract a soverign credit rating. What Jackson said was just plane wrong. Have a look at the ratings of other Government ownded companies like Emar. they reflect the commercial reality of those busniesses (which is to say, lousy!!)

EVERY government negotiates traffic rights and other advantages for it's idgigenous businesses. Why do you think Qantas lobbys so hard and so successfully to keep any competitor from competing against it on the Pacific? You quote how the Canadian government is being overtly protectionist towards Canadian Airlines.

The threat to close the Canadian base was, I agree, clumsy and ultimatley couter-productive. But governments everywhere use any amount of leverage and horse trading to bolster there own interests.

Neither UAE no any GCC has open sky policy

Please support that assertion.

. Monopoly does not create excellence for any company, does it?

No, which is why standars at protected airline like Qantas and Canadian are often cited as being sub-standard.

I am not saying Emirates has low demand globally, it does, but this huge amount of profit comes from unfair competition,

I would say that Emirates biggest advantage is the ability to pay its staff in a tax free environment. Is there a reason it should NOT do so?

how Emirates is able to make huge profits when more than 90% of airlines make losses! Is this magic?

By offering a desirable product from a strategic position.

especially Dubai is being hit hard by the financial crisis and made a statement that it is on default by asking delay to pay its debit.

Dubai has debt it cannot repay. EK does not.

Please do not tell me that a tribal mentality can fight fairly because a tribal person will only fight when he is stronger and knows his competitors are weaker.
Today

Unlike business people elswhere in the world who line up to help their less fortunate competitors......

[ManaDubai]

shazar...

I'm just so tired of bs like that being spread around the net. I recommend this article (http://www.economist.com/node/16271573?story_id=16271573)in the Economist (one of the world’s best and well reputed magazines) for a balanced and good article about the ME carriers and EK in particular.

The biggest threat to future EK expansion is protectionism from other governments, especially in emerging markets like India. Open skies is essential for the future strategy of EK to make Dubai into a global hub of transportation, and as a result UAE has open skies agreements with many countries.

It's in UAE and EKs interests as a small country with a small home market to be as open and business friendly as possible to attract skilled workers and investments to the region. As the Economist article points out very well EK is in no need of subsidies. The aviation friendly climate and low cost base of Dubai is more than enough to give EK a competitive advantage that allows the company to both have lower costs and higher profits than its main European and Asian competitors.

[motley flight crue]

Mana, possibly the biggest load of rubbish on pprune.

I wish most countries would close open skies. Why should they care about Dubai and EK. open skies in UAE who cares. Maybe QF or SQ should base 15 aircraft here and utilize the skies like EK do, and then whinge about fair treatment ( Canada )

What friendly and cheap Dubai are you talking about. The rudest and most repulsive mish mash of trash and crooks on the planet ( except wall st. )
When has anyone here lived up to contracts or even basic humanity.

And I actually don't mind dubai and EK, but can't deny the reality of this place.

[ManaDubai]

Sigh...

Open skies = Good for Dubai, good for EK and good for the air travellers as it provides lower fares and a quality product. I do agree it’s not so good for EK competitors that have a cost base that is severely higher than EKs. There is no doubt that many of the traditional legacy carriers will have trouble keeping in the air as a result of this. However I think the interests of the average consumer should be put before the interests of legacy carriers that are not able to adjust to new times.

Business friendly or as I put it aviation friendly = Low taxes, great infrastructure, easy and fast decision making process. This makes it easier for EK to compete, and makes EK a more profitable company that can offer lower fares than most of it competitors.

Cheap =? I never wrote anything about Dubai being cheap, but after the financial crisis good house accommodation has certainly become very affordable. The point and the argument I think you refer to is my point regarding EKs low cost base. That is explained above. EK also have lower wage costs than European and American competitors because of the 0% income tax, or as I put it a business friendly climate. Dubai has done and is doing a lot to attract business and skilful workers, I was just referring to why that is and has been essential for EKs success.

I did not refer to how you might feel it is to live in Dubai whether you have problems with the people, traffic, treating of women or any of the other known complaints about this place. That was not the point of my post. I just pointed out why EK does not get and does not need subsidies, and why EK has become the most successful airline of the 21st century.

[shazar]

Chairman of Jazeera airways made a press statement few months ago published in a local Kuwaiti press demanding all GCC countries to adopt open sky policy. Mutual agreements between certain governments do exist, I agree with you, but still there are no formal legislations in place on large scale. It is still cherry-pick. UAE does not have competition regulating body for organsing competition. Alike all GCC and more, UAE controls many blue chips industries.

I read more about orders of planes for Emirates than products, and more rewards for innovative products to Etihad and Qatar Airways than Emirates. Skytrax has some to offer on this. Award winning products such as sky chief, sky nany , ..etc all did not start at Emirates. Even lately, a lost making airline was the first to resume flights to Iraq.


All regional airlines pay free taxes salaries. Therefore, this is not a unique advantage. However, majority of people working for Emirates are expats and this is truly supportive. If you think about this to far extent, you will find the geo-economic and native population size supports Emirates. I had access to research done by Economist in this regard few months ago and just 3 days ago a magazine article from a reputable and legal UK HR body supporting my argument. for Mr. ManaDubai, I do have access to Economist as well as numerous international publications but it is very important to state an opinion in a polite manner and acknwoledge existance of others.

I am sorry, but I can see big difference between the way I think and you do so Mr Wizofoz. I think about being more professional competitor, demanding for general framework for the basis of competition and sustaining permanent profitability (i.e. capitalist) and you think about employing tribal approach to prop-up your stand (socialist). In this part of the world, the concepts of competition, measurement and performance are truly new to tribal people as much as when it comes to issues like corporate governance which do not exist in Emirates (e.g. Chairman holds conflicting roles). This is not only my opinion, but I worked with top international bankers and businessmen who do hold the same opinion. (again I am sorry but this is my true opinion based on many years of experience).

Thanks Mr Wizofoz for your professional attitude and opinion. I really appreciate talking to people holding proper communication skills like your good-self :D


ManaDubai .. you are affable and polite communicator :rolleyes:

[Iver]

Can anyone list the airports worldwide that are CAPABLE of handling an A380? Just wondering where EK will put A380s as they deliver more (beyond just adding more frequencies to LHR, CDG, ICN, SYD, etc.)...

[MrMachfivepointfive]

Do I hear a faint echo from the year 1969? Oh my god! What airport could possibly handle a Boeing 747? Since airports used to be round grassy patches, aircraft technology has always driven airport technology. Not the other way around. Aircraft are just comparably the more expensive piece of kit. Otherwise flying boats would still have a great future. The clipped wings of the Short Stirling and the triple fin of the Connie (both to fit hangars - not runways) are the exceptions from the rule.

[efis78]

Hello bunch.

I know this has probably been discussed somewhere, but any of you think Emirates will still put orders on the 748i or more on the 777?

Take care

[MrMachfivepointfive]

Wait till Farnborough. Don't think there has been a Farnborough airshow during the last decade or so, without EK signing for something or the other.

[mini cooper]

Ek still sniffing around the 748, as it is needed for SFO / LAX. You just have to watch the number of 'significant' people who fly to SFO then on to Boeing to know something is up and not just another 777 order. For info though, Boeing rubbing EKs nose in it as EK didn't take up the initial offer (longer range, shorter upper deck) when they were given the chance of a lot of input into the design. Typically EK then started wingeing when Boeing went with the design the other carriers wanted (more seats, shorter range)even though they had not shown any interest. Also EK still has a 748 project pilot (though what qualifications he has to be in the job I have no idea, I believe never flown 747, joined on 310 cargo then as Eds best mate got the transfer to 777!!!!). The FOs love him - NOT!
So anyway 748 still a possibility but tied up with politics of A350 / 787-1000 / engine selections and 777 300LR!!! A long complicated story!
Remember its a rumour network, but this is what I heard!!

[efis78]

Kinda makes sense I guess. We'll see during Farnborough....

[fatbus]

personally don't see the 748, yes it works for LAX/SFO but EK is not going to get a small fleet to do one route. They could send 380 with 400 pax and full cargo until the higher weight version comes at less cost IE set up cost for the 748

[mini cooper]

Thought A380 had problems just getting the bags on board when full passenger load, let alone trying to get any cargo on!! When is this higher weight version due to be available? I'm sure the load factor will have to be substantial to justify the huge fuel burn the A380 has!
Also I think there is a degree of playing one company off against another ie EK has just placed a big order with Airbus so Boeing will not want to miss out, they need the business as well so I think there may be something coming up in the future.
This leaves us with the sticky issue of pilot recruitment and from what I know it is not going well, recently on one of the roadshows hundreds applied, only single numbers accepted for interview. The trainers are keeping up the standards so not that many are getting through Sim ride. Even AAR knows he's in trouble! We all know the summer months will be touch and go as so many are maxing out on the hours - I certainly am!
Keep Discovering

[ETOPS]

When is this higher weight version due to be available?

From aircraft 095 - delivered to BA around the middle of 2013.

[pool]

Just trying to dispel some of the myths

I admit that you're trying to be factual, but if you want to dispel myths, you need to dispel myths.

It is very easy to copy flightplans on the same route, the same day for a T7 and a A380, and it will be even easier once the latter picks up the 201 again.
I challenge every one to do so and to judge by themselves about the remaining cargo capacity on a JFK flight and about the fuel-burn vs. pax-number or vs. kg transported.

I am not alone having done so and all came to the same myth busting conclusion.
Up to you to check weather it's the AI spin or the PPRuNe spin.

[pool]

Sure thing buddy, I am not contesting that.

What I am simply saying, is that the A380 uses MORE fuel vs. pax or load than a T7. It can therefore NOT be more ecological, what they always brag about.
I did not go into profits, as a bigger one should per definition deliver more yield, as the initial costs (trfc rights, crew needed, handling fees etc.) are smaller in comparison.

On the other hand your math, although correct, can be spinned at wish:

On a JFK route

- 300 to 400 pax are transported cheapest with a T7
- 480 to 600 with a A380
- 800 with two T7's
- 900 with one T7 and one A380
- 950 with two A380's
- and so forth.

Every aircraft handling such a sector has it's perfect passenger number, just have sales bring you this match, and your tube of metal is the best.

The only real comparison comes therefore with the burn per capita or per kg transported. And incontestably the T7 is the winner in this respect, thus the most ecological.

That's what I said.

[Sataybox]

:zzz: :zzz: :zzz: :zzz: :zzz: :zzz: :zzz:

Honestly, who could give a flying **** which is good at what?

The pilots on ALL fleets are screwed equally by management. Why do you care what or how many you carry?

Get lives!!

Next topic..............

[Dessert Aviator]

So when are you recruiting Direct entry Captains for the A380's :ouch::ouch:

[BusyB]

How fast is an A380 then:confused:

[pool]

I think you will find a 2 seater motor glider more efficient, and by your argument-
gasp.... The A330-------- less of a fuel burn than the 777

.... but they both can't fly DXB-JFK.
For the sake of the case, stay focused and compare apples with apples.
Take a 201 and a 203, on the same day, with both full pax load, see what you burn per pax and per kg, check how much extra cargo (in % and in t) you can load, and then come back.

A 330 (especially the -300) is as fantastic aircraft on its specific routes, no doubt.
If you dig a little deeper, you would realise that any twin with only two landing gear struts is a fine machine, as the manufacturers match each other quite nicely.
It is the anachronistic design of four engines and four struts that make the whale too heavy to be able to match the efficiency of twins. As simple as that.

The A380 is quieter, bigger, makes more money due to the hype as long as you fill it, it has a beautiful bar and so forth. I do not deny it, it has its attraction and assets. But neither can any 380-fanatic deny that it is simply too heavy (for the time being) and any quarter pounded self proclaimed professional of the skies might remember lesson number one of aerodynamics: The heavier, the more burn.

The T7 dates back to the early eighties, it simply can't be as sophisticated as a brand new model. The mere fact that it still competes in efficiency with the A380, should point out the latters weakness: It is simply not as efficient as proclaimed.
This is what is bugging me. An aircraft that brings only fractional improvement, that has a very narrowly peaked best performance curve and is ordered in huge numbers, is a potential threat to a company.

[EGGW]

Right guys, please take a break from the debate as to whether the 380 or T7 is the best, we can go on ad nauseum and everyone still has the same viewpoint. Any more posts on this facet of the thread gets binned

EGGW

[three eighty]

DATE:14/06/10
SOURCE:Flight International

Why Emirates chose ILA to reveal big A380 deal

By Murdo Morrison

Why did Emirates announce its massive A380 order at ILA rather than the higher-profile Farnborough air show next month? That was a question many were asking at an event that has been seen in the past as a rather parochial get-together for German industry.

There were two reasons. While the Dubai-based airline is already comfortably ensconced in the UK market, it is desperate to secure more lucrative German routes, including Berlin, where the regulatory and political environment is not so welcoming to potentially dominant foreign carriers.

Despite the temptation to delay the announcement to July, Emirates bosses figured the opportunity to impress German media and ministers, including Chancellor Angela Merkel, was too good to pass over.

Airbus parent EADS is also by far the biggest exhibitor at ILA, and through its influence with German trade association BDLI, in effect underwrites the whole event. The European giant was delighted to dominate the headlines at what it regards, with Paris, as one of its two home shows.

[fatbus]

everywhere you see a full 777 will become a 380 and maybe even some india stuff

[Sataybox]

Leading Seaman Stains, think of how many more ****-holes there are in Africa. Then there's a billion Chinese.

Lots more cities in N. America too. Loads of indians in Vancouver all wanting-wanting to go home.

[mini cooper]

Here's the latest from Flight Global, follow the link or read it below:

New A380 deal part of long-term strategy for ?measured growth?: Clark (http://www.flightglobal.com/articles/2010/06/11/343122/new-a380-deal-part-of-long-term-strategy-for-measured-growth.html)

New A380 deal part of long-term strategy for “measured growth”: Clark
By Max Kingsley-Jones

Emirates gave the Airbus A380 a major shot in the arm last week, placing the biggest single order ever for the superjumbo with a deal for 32 aircraft. The airline's chief executive Tim Clark dismissed cynicism from certain quarters about the deal, which takes the airline's orders for the 500-seater to 90 aircraft, saying that it simply reconfirms its successful strategy of "measured, staged growth".

The Dubai carrier signed the $11.5 billion firm order at last week's ILA show in Berlin, where it had also just taken delivery of the 10th of 58 Engine Alliance GP7200-powered A380s from its existing orders.

Clark says that the deal for 32 additional A380s, which will also be GP7200-powered, "has been in the making for a long time" and is "simply an extension of the growth strategy which have been doing successfully for quite a number of years".

Deliveries will begin shortly after the last of the current batch arrives in January 2015, says Clark: "The 32 will be delivered between April 2015 and November 2017.

The decision to expand the Emirates A380 fleet to 90 aircraft over the next seven years is part of the airline's strategy to ensure "we have the delivery slots we want at the time that we want, to allow us to grow at the pace that we want to", Clark says.

"When the going gets good again, if we haven't placed our orders and bagged the positions for the aircraft that we want to do the job then we'll be behind the curve when everybody else is doing it."

The airline is operating the 10 A380s already delivered to destinations across its network, including to key points in Europe, North America, Asia and Australasia. Clark says that as the airline's traffic and network grows the double-decker will be deployed to more destinations in these regions, replacing existing widebodies, and also to increase frequencies.

The size that Emirates'A380 commitment has grown to now raises a few eyebrows, but Clark uses a simple utilisation calculation to justify it: "When we send an A380 to the US East or West Coast on a daily basis, I lose 2.5 aircraft. If I go there twice a day that's five aircraft, so you've only got to do six destinations on a double-daily frequency on 14.5h missions and those 32 aircraft are gone."

He also points out that the airline will begin a phase-out in February next year of around 68 of its older widebodies, including A330-200s, A340-300/500s and Boeing 777-200s. These aircraft will be replaced by the larger 777-300ER, and the A350 XWB which is on order, as the A380s arrive and succeed those big twinjets on denser routes.

The A380 order, which is the first for the superjumbo in 2010 and comes after several years of slow sales, has met with criticism in some quarters with observers querying the logic of Airbus's over-reliance on one market for A380 sales.

"From Emirates' viewpoint, it might just be win-win. They'll almost certainly get walk-away rights, so the worst-case scenario is a cancelled order," says Richard Aboulafia, vice-president analysis at Teal Group.

"Best case is better market access, and a lot of heavily discounted capacity with which to take advantage of this access. But even then it's impossible to imagine an expansion plan that absorbed 90 A380s before 2026, especially given all their other order positions."

But Airbus chief executive Tom Enders says the benefits of having so many A380s earmarked for one carrier outweigh the business risks. "There is always a risk in this sort of exposure, but if you see how Emirates operates, it has one of the best managements in the world. Their strategy is not built on sand. They see chances where others see risks. So I don't think we have too many eggs with a weak customer, as Emirates have demonstrated [by emerging quickly from] this crisis."

He adds: "Industrially it is much better than selling four A380s here and six there, with each one differently customised. Of course, it is easier for us to have bigger orders with fewer customers."

Although Emirates was a launch customer for the A380, its first commitment was for just seven aircraft (plus five options) and the growing success of the superjumbo at the airline has come as a relatively recent surprise to Airbus. Until 2005, the airline's Dubai hub was notably absent from the list of top 10 superjumbo hubs in Airbus's 20-year global market forecasts - it then went straight in at number six.

However Enders says that A380 was developed very much with the Middle East and Asia in mind. He sees Asia as the bigger opportunity now, as this Emirates order probably represents one of the final big commitments from that region. "I think we have exploited that market already".

He believes the Emirates commitment will prompt rivals to reconsider their fleet strategy. "Some of the blue-chip airlines will have to think 'Are we getting it right and Tim [Clark] is getting it very wrong. What will the world look like when Emirates has 90 A380s?'."

Although Airbus's A380 product-marketing chief Richard Carcaillet acknowledges that the industry is not used to seeing orders of this size for very large aircraft, he is convinced more customers will follow the Emirates lead: "I have no doubt we'll see a number of airlines with fleets of this sort of size in the medium to long term."

But Aboulafia points out that as Emirates is not growing with traffic that is organic to Dubai, its huge deal could hurt other potential A380 customers. "Much of Emirates' traffic has been siphoned off from Europe's legacy carriers. Europe appears willing to let Emirates poach this traffic in order to save the A380. Since the A380 seems to have exactly one big fan (whose enthusiasm has been overstated) letting Emirates grow at European carriers' expense might be the only way to generate demand for this airplane."

Speaking a month before the Emirates deal, Airbus's chief salesman John Leahy doubled his earlier estimate for the minimum number of new A380 orders in 2010 to "at least 20". But Aboulafia says if this deal constitutes that forecast, it "raises troubling questions about this programme, particularly if ILFC cancels its orders. It has been a very long time since they've secured new A380 orders, or a meaningful commitment from someone new."

However Carcaillet says that Airbus is currently engaged in A380 sales campaigns with at least three potential new customers for the type, although he is non-committal whether any more deals could materialise this year.