Turbo Charged Airvans in Kununurra

[Blueskymine]

That's right.

A well known operator has started upgrading the Airvan fleet to the new turbo charged Airvans.

As a Pilot that would be fantastic, more power, better take off and climb performance in the inland areas and climb performance at altitude etc however one can only wonder what will happen when the young whipper snappers are being let loose with the TIO-540. While a proven and reliable engine they do tend to cause heart ache for the operators if they are abused, run too lean or mishandled. I certainly remember cringing at the way the engines were operated in my time on pistons by both junior and even some senior type Pilots. Instructors where generally the worse treating every engine like it was an 0-235 or 0-200.

I certainly would not want green Pilots being let loose with one. Perhaps the extra payload they can carry will compensate for the increased maintenance costs. Most of those bungles scenics are however generally done from a low level and most strips have plenty of runway available to them.

Thoughts?

[apache]

Thoughts?


one casts stones from lofty spaces!

I am sure that the operator would ENSURE(not insure) that ANY pilot, be it newby or otherwise would be properly trained.

[FRQ Charlie Bravo]

I certainly have a thought on the matter.:}

Having spent many an hour staring through the bubble window loathing those aero-anchors holding me back I often wondered why in the hell don't we put some spats on those wheels. Sure there'd be no extra grunt on T/O but being a wee bit faster a touch less fuel might be needed increasing payload available. And don't say it's because of the size of the tyres and the bush strips, you only need them to cover a bit below the half-way point.

Turbo-charged GA8s in Kununurra, what's the big deal? Study some theory texts, read the Manual, operate to the Manual and after about three or four departures and approaches ICUS you'll be right (chuck at least one go around in there too).

If you Fununurra folks want to look at a beautiful turbo-charged single look no further than Steve's little rocket at Shoal Air, VH-DSO (the folks at Mooney even let you put a bit of breathing O2 to get proper use of the turbo-charger). Damn, I'm getting all teary-eyed thinking about the old girl and the remnants of my blood, sweat and tears which must still be floating around inside her fuel tanks.:\

FRQ CB

PS Do these GA8s have a fixed or variable waste gate? Can they be over-boosted on T/O near sea level? Have they done anything to FIX THE SEATS?

[Blueskymine]

The spats would not last very long in the top end, with punters using it as a seat or a step to rocks being flicked into them.

A retractable strutless Airvan would be nice, CASA might not be so supportive however :hmm:

The seats are still the same, one would have thought that after most Pilots suffering hemorrhoids after a season or two they would have cushioned them a little more.

Just because a Pilot is told to do something in line training does not mean they won't think they know better 20 hours later on the line. get high on profile, power back, get low power on wasting all that cooling. Lean for cruise, then decide they want a higher level, increase power, forget mixture etc etc.

We shall see in 12 months or if they make TBO which should be two years or so :p

[eocvictim]

I am sure that the operator would ENSURE(not insure) that ANY pilot, be it newby or otherwise would be properly trained.

I'm sure I'm missing your underlying cynicism but when reputable operators cant ensure the above with 2000-3000hour twin drivers I don’t hold much hope for these poor aircraft.

[Jabawocky]

Blueskymine, if they were taught to lean them properly and they climbed forgetting the mixture they would not do any harm at all. :)

Its about time folk in GA of all ages started to learn about the science of combustion and where to operate their engines.

Of course if they were being operated just a fraction too rich and did that.....yes you may have a point.:ooh:

[splinter11]

Totally agree with bluesky, the proof will be in the pudding in a years time. From all reports there is no increase in MTOW, so the advantages i would say would be minimal. I would imagine the cost would be somewhere between 700K-1 mill also, so Alligator outta hope they have a smart business plan in place. I think in this day and age, with people getting heavier, it is very difficult to LEGALLY fit 7 pax in an airvan with a payload to the bungles of roughly 510kg. So what happened to the good old C210's, they are the true money makers, as well as the trusty C207's. In terms of engine management i suppose they better hope the new chief pilot is sound in teaching green pilots how to fly turbos. Im sure they have it under control....surely.....

[FRQ Charlie Bravo]

Im sure they have it under control....surely.....They do have it under control ...and don't call me Shirley!

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/d/da/Airplane_screenshot_Haggerty_Nielsen.jpg/250px-Airplane_screenshot_Haggerty_Nielsen.jpg

FRQ CB

PS Woo hoo, my 5ooth post. Time to break out the bubbly... and drink it... from a plastic flute... by myself... as I troll through my exciting life on PPRuNe. Damn.

Edit - In hindsight from 2012: were the lessons learnt?

[Chadzat]

Just dont have the fish FRQ CB!

Jaba, I concur 100%, however even with operators at the GA level, most still have SOP's to adhere to. So no matter how much research and learning you can do about operating piston engines, it doesn't change the fact you have to operate them the way the Owner/Boss/CP/Head gringo said you should operate them.

[Blueskymine]

Of course if they were being operated just a fraction too rich and did that.....yes you may have a point.

I doubt they will be operating LOP Jaba. They will more than likely be setting a fuel flow for climb and a fuel flow for cruise which will be on the rich side of peak. When I operated these engines in 310/350 combos I would lean straight to a fuel flow too. Been a while but it used to be 27/28 GPH on climb and 17/18 GPH for cruise. If you peaked the EGT you could get it down pretty low in cruise but 49 LPH on a TIO-540 seemed a tad dangerous to me. You can never trust those old EGTs.

If they had GAMI injectors and a full FADEC setup perhaps. Something tells me that won't be happening anytime soon.

[sky_pilot]

The Turbo Airvan is a great aircraft and as other ppruners have mentioned if trained right there is no real problems with letting a junior (or senior) pilot loose on one.

If they can use it in skydive operations in which its full throttle to FL145 with 9 POB then down again in 5 min and that sort of operation being approved by Gippsland Aero and the engine manufacturers (with help of a 6 probe egt system + EDM).

i think for the performance it has over its little brother, good move for the operators in Kunnas.

Sky_Pilot :ok:

[Jabawocky]

Chadzat
it doesn't change the fact you have to operate them the way the Owner/Boss/CP/Head gringo said you should operate them.

Precisely where the changes need to be happening. And remove the OWT's.

J:ok:

[j3pipercub]

The way you guys are carrying on, you'd think the Airvan was like the space shuttle!

[The Green Goblin]

In terms of engine management i suppose they better hope the new chief pilot is sound in teaching green pilots how to fly turbos. Im sure they have it under control....surely.....

You'd have a pretty good idea of that mate, more than most i'd imagine :ok:

The way you guys are carrying on, you'd think the Airvan was like the space shuttle!

Maybe J3, but secretly we know that a turbine is far easier to operate than a piston engine :p

The Airvan is a very docile Aeroplane, but it's still capable of carrying 7 souls plus your own ego. If one speared in it would be up there with the worst aviation accidents in Australia. Coupled with the fact they are operated by 200 hour Pilots makes you wonder.

as well as the trusty C207's.

Trusty perhaps, but 30,000 hours of abuse in the Kimberley on some airframes makes you appreciate new equipment.

I always wondered why Captain Croc didn't go down the caravan path though like the experts of the long field landing next door..........

[splinter11]

Because "im telling you this is the first step to Alligator owning Skywest"

[D-J]

If they can use it in skydive operations in which its full throttle to FL145 with 9 POB then down again in 5 min and that sort of operation being approved by Gippsland Aero and the engine manufacturers (with help of a 6 probe egt system + EDM).




geee I'd like to know the numbers they're using on decent.... hope the drivers are keeping a eye on the cht's

[FRQ Charlie Bravo]

Because "im telling you this is the first step to Alligator owning Skywest"

and "I'm telling you" that I have borrowed that catch phrase more than I should have these past few years.:ok:

FRQ CB

[Wally Mk2]

Am sure any operator planning to operate TC pwr plants will do their homework re training & eng handling. We've had TC engines for a few years now so nothing new there.
Will be interesting to see the Jet A1 version of the 'Van' one day. Turbines are so much nicer/smoother to use providing some good sound training has been put in place udderwise one 'cooked' in-line 4 stroke eng will cost a LOT more than a blown few cylinders on a TC recip donk! I hear the Turbine version is in the making, perhaps a Allison C10B or similar at say de-rated to 400 gee gees??...........nice:ok:


Wmk2

[Joker 10]

Like any turbo Cessna, pin the Top of the green Manifold and RPM lean to specs and no more and you simply cannot go wrong.

Turbo Charging is GOOD for the engine, stable pressures, and a happy engine

[Oliver Klozof]

Not knocking the Airvan, but I don't see the economic sense in using the Turbocharged version unless you really need the altitude capability.

From Lycoming, a rebuilt-exchange engine for the turbo version runs $76,992 USD vs $48,955 USD for the normally aspirated version.

I don't know the TBO of these engines, but imagine the turbo version is probably 100-200 less?

That's big chunk of cash per hour!

[sms777]

Christ!... i would have never thought flying a single could be so complicated these days. But then i looked at the trend that is developing in aviation these days where there is the lack of hands on flying as demonstrated by the accident report on the crash of AirFrance A330 over the Atlantic recently.
The turbo Airvan is one more step towards development of high performance automated complex aircrafts that will be piloted by uni graduates with only sim time on their hands and no real flying experience.
I feel sorry for the newbies heading for the north hoping for the break in aviation but lacking experience in "turbo airvans".
I may be old fashioned in my thinking but over the hill is sometimes better than under it.

[The Green Goblin]

Because "im telling you this is the first step to Alligator owning Skywest"

:D

Just pray it aint something with red tails and link in the name, I'm telling you this now.......

[Jober.as.a.Sudge]

Turbocharged Airvans in Kununurra...

FFS ya blouses -get over it. A turbo on a 540 is NOT a big deal. A TINY bit of training (which it will be once you've dropped all the OWT's and ego-driven crap out of the briefing) will suffice, then get on with it.

:} JaaS

[VH-BCY]

Check this website (Forced Aeromotive Technologies Supercharger for piston powered aircraft with Lycoming and Continental engines. (http://www.forcedaeromotive.com/product.htm)). Finally a great engine to throw into the 200 series Cessnas. Might be a better and cheaper alternative than a turbo Airvan. I'm looking to convert my 2 turbo charged 206s to the superchrged IO550N, can't wait! :ok:

[kingRB]

supports PPonk conversions too. Nice!

[bushy]

And it will be of limited use in Australia because the transition level and the adjacent levels are not available for cruising.
Our transition level should be raised to a higher level to allow turbocharged and supercharged aircraft aircraft to cruise higher.
And the oxygen requirement level is significantly lower than most of world uses.
So turbocharged and supercharged aircraft cruise at much the same levels as the others. They just get there quicker.

[multime]

Rumours of a G10, turbine version in Aus flying magazine.
Ten seats, a mid level caravan and australian built, fantastic.

[The Green Goblin]

There has been rumours of a Turbine Airvan since the first aeroplane went into service.

With the time effort and money it took them to develop and get approved the latest version with CASA don't hold your breath for the G10!

If you hear Rob spruiking a turbine airvan as a carrot, he was talking about Vulcanairs and Caravans when he took over the company. Instead of Vulcanairs and Caravans, Airvans, Aztecs and Chieftains arrived :}