Drop tanks

[Double Zero]

I've just been perusing another site ( gasp ! ) about the Harrier.

A question came up which I thought I could answer instantly, then had to stop & think ( it's a while since I was around live jets ).

The question was actually " did early Harriers contain any unusual / surprising materials ? "

To which my reply would basically be no.

However a fitter from those days reckoned the drop tanks were ' some kind of plastic '.

That's a new one on me, maybe something on GR1's before my time.

I was about to reply that I'd seen ' Phenolic Asbestos ' stencilled on the tanks which I remember, then I realised, during the Falklands War the 100 Gallon jobs were hurriedly 'stretched' to 190, so must have been conventional alloy, which would also tally with slightly crumpled examples seen after mishaps...

So were the 'normal' tanks alloy, and I'm possibly thinking of our Trials T8M Hunter with Phenolic Asbestos jobs ?

I expect this thread will take nanosconds to answer...

[Lightning Mate]

Same material as on the Jaguar. Our tanks were stamped "Asbestos Phenolic".

Easy to manufacture and relatively light and strong.

Ours were a little bigger than those on the the Harrier - 1000 litres.

[Double Zero]

Lightningmate,

Thanks, but I'd think those difficult to stretch with a plug, I seem to remember that being done rather than whole new 190 G tanks, though my few remaining grey cells may well be playing up...

[kenparry]

Phenolic asbestos was not a new material when the Harrier appeared. All the 100-gallon tanks on Hunters were made of that, going back to about 1956 or so. (The 230-gallon tanks for the Hunter 6A/9/10 were steel. The 150-gallon tanks used by the Swiss Air Force on their Hunters were possibly phenolic asbestos.)

[Lightning Mate]

Double Zero,


Thanks, but I'd think those difficult to stretch with a plug, I seem to remember that being done rather than whole new 190 G tanks, though my few remaining grey cells may well be playing up...

I think you're right.

A colleague who shares my office has lots of time on Harriers, and was in the '82 campaign. I'm sure he will have the answer, so if the thread is still running on Tuesday I'll ask him for the answer.

[Double Zero]

Thanks, Lightningmate.

BTW I expect you're well aware, but there is a fairly fine example of your namesake kept indoors at Tangmere Military Aviation Museum; I forget which mark but single seat with belly tank & probe, if you explain who you are you could probably fight past the elf'n'safety regulations and get in, as long as only sensible not officious types are there...Mondays are good, if interested PM me.

DZ

[Double Zero]

Kenparry,

I rather doubt those tanks were steel but as always I stand to be corrected...

Lightningmate, looking forward to your chum's memories.

DZ

[Kieron Kirk]

I am sure that Hunter 230 gallon drop tanks were steel-mild steel no less.

I saw umpteen of them being manufactured at Kingston back in the 1960s.

Ciarain.

[Double Zero]

Ciarain,

I bow to your superior knowledge re. Hunter 230's; just asked my father who dealt with them and he reckons they were thin mild steel.

Incredible in my book, then again if from Warton they'd have been bored out from the solid !

The jury's still out on 100 / 190 Sea Harrier tanks...

[Double Zero]

I've just been advised from a source I wouldn't doubt, the Sea Harrier 100-190 tanks were alloy, the Hunter in Dunsfolds' case ( 100 Gallon ? ) tanks were phenolic asbestos.

All values Imperial...

DZ

[NutherA2]

I am sure that Hunter 230 gallon drop tanks were steel-mild steel no less.
I'm pretty certain that the 4 x 230 gallon drop tanks fitted underwing on our Javelin 9R ( in addition to the normal 2 x 250 gallon ventrals) were the identical item.

[Compass Call]

The 230 gallon tanks used by Singapore, Kuwait & Oman were steel:ok:

Regards,
CC

[astir 8]

OK guys, a question I posted years ago but never got an answer:-

Who first used drop tanks? If the Luftwaffe had used them in the Battle of Britain it could have affected the result.

p.s. I do some work in New Guinea and the Ramu valley is still littered with steel USAAF drop tanks - they look just like the ones on the big Airfix P51 kit!

[Load Toad]

I swear I saw a picture recently of a WW I stylee biplane with a tank between it's wheels - now if I could bloody remember where cos I was surprised to see it. It could have been of course a picture from the late 30's...

[Double Zero]

Astir 8,

It's said the Luftwaffe were conversant with drop tanks during the B of B, so indeed a mystery why they didn't use them - maybe they hadn't got separation sorted, or it was just a whim of Goering's ?!

My father was leading air mechanic on Seafires, Escort carriers, and recounts trying to fit a slipper tank in a rolling hangar ( it was connected with a glass tube, god knows why as you're not going to punch off a slipper tank ) - they were ankle deep in high octane sloshing from side to side !

Unsurprisingly, the first of class, HMS Dasher, blew up off the Clyde with the loss of almost all on board.

He also recounts being under attack from the Japanese, when a 'huge bomb' came down, making everyone take cover; it was a discarded drop tank, so the Japanese at least had it sorted by 1942 on.

Back to the Bf109's, maybe carrying a tank ( I'm assuming centreline to start with ) had too much drag, or feed problems ?

I can certainly see snags with wing tanks, what with fuel transfer & syphon problems; even the Hunter & Harrier were prone to problems with valves etc...

Maybe the extra effort of handling tanks which may or may not feed, and may or may not punch off, was deemed not worth it ?

I'd like to think it wouldn't have made much difference, but being British I would say that !

One can't leave the subject of drop tanks without mentioning Chuck Yeager; according to his own self effacing & modest book ( not ) he and his chum went off in their Mustangs when they thought the war in Europe was over, punched off their tanks, and tried to shoot them as they fell.

When they returned with gunports open, others exclaimed " so you were there then ! "

It turned out the rest of his squadron had been fighting for their lives in a massive last ditch effort by the Germans...very professional, Mr.Yeager !

Load Toad, I know the sort of thing you mean, are you sure it was a drop tank, not just a low tank for CofG purposes ( getting them to feed must have been a pain ) ?

[XV490]

Who first used drop tanks?

Didn't Col. Cas Hough and his US 8th Air Force team at Bovingdon develop them, made of some sort of paper derivative, for P-47s and P-51s?

[Load Toad]

I can't find the image I thought I'd seen of a WW 1 stylee bi-plane with a drop tank - for some reason I'm thinking I was looking for pictures of the Avro 504 or derivatives of. But I'm prolly mistaken.

Wiki (yes I know...) suggests drop tanks were being used during the Spanish Civil War.

Drop tank - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Drop_tank)

[Lightning Mate]

Double Zero


but there is a fairly fine example of your namesake kept indoors at Tangmere Military Aviation Museum; I forget which mark

Thanks for the heads up. It's an F53, the export model of the RAF F6, which I have flown.

Cheers.

[Double Zero]

I suppose the ultimate drop-tank was the Hustler's combined tank & cruise missile !

There was the case of a Sea Harrier larking about ( in my opinion & experience the FAA always explore the limits of their aircraft and push them to the full, and top points for that );

The pilot involved was rather too keen, to the extent the tanks were torn off the pylons as he did a high speed loop; the tanks landed in an aspargus bed in a chap's Somerset garden, no harm done except possibly the pilot's career and a dose of Immodium for the occupant; I don't remember the pilot's name.

Nor does anyone remember the pilot the late Rod 'Fred' Frederickson was referring to when he said, " The last time I saw ....X he was spinning inverted into cloud, engine out ".

The git ejected, and by making sure his recovery actions were on the voice recorder, got away with throwing away a perfectly good Sea Harrier...

Back to drop tanks...

[Lightning Mate]

Double Zero,

New PM.


and by making sure his recovery actions were on the voice recorder

What voice recorder?

[Load Toad]

..he took his wife with him?

[Lightning Mate]

No way.

Voice recorders, when fitted, recorded accurately.......

[Compass Call]

Omani Beaver carrying (drop) tanks :ok:

CChttp://i81.photobucket.com/albums/j216/Compass123/Beavercarryingreservefuel.jpg

[twochai]

Didn't Col. Cas Hough and his US 8th Air Force team at Bovingdon develop them, made of some sort of paper derivative, for P-47s and P-51s?

Did the DH Mosquito not have Papier Mache (or similar composite material) slipper tanks underwing? I'm not certain they were droppable though.

[rigpiggy]

whiskey barrels

[Double Zero]

That Beaver (?!) looks like it had a 5 knot margin between takeoff speed & flat out; please tell me they weren't plumbed in...

[Compass Call]

Double Zero

No, They were not plumbed in. Just used to transport the fuel from A to B :)

Pretty inventive those Airwork fitters!!!!!

CC

[Nautilus Blue]

a WW 1 stylee bi-plane with a drop tank

Vickers Vincent? Apparently derived from the Vildebeest torpedo bomber by replacing the torpedo with a long range fuel tank under the fuselage.

Re the Luftwaffe, I read that they tried the Bf110 with drop tanks as a long range escort over northern England. Only used once, had some issues with not being able to jettison the tanks, and were intercepted by Spitfires with inevitable results.

[India Four Two]

Those Airwork fitters must have seen these photos from 1944:

http://i30.photobucket.com/albums/c309/india42/Spitfire_1.jpg

http://i30.photobucket.com/albums/c309/india42/Spitfire_2.jpg

http://i30.photobucket.com/albums/c309/india42/Spitfire_3.jpg

I remember seeing the third picture in a book. Was it Johnnie Johnson's?

[Double Zero]

Whoever it was, I remember reading of such 'deliveries' to forward airstrips in Normandy; they often contained something a bit more morale boosting than high octane !

[Brianf127]

During the Japanese strafing of Broome, Western Australia on March 3rd 1942 drop tanks were mistaken for bombs.

[Double Zero]

My Father was on Escort Carriers at the end of WWII; one day when under attack by the Japanese ( there's a photo ) a 'huge bomb' fell and they thought "Jesus, our time's up !"

It turned out to be an empty drop tank...