CC working hours

[robtheblade]

We keep hearing about CC/FD doing a max of 900hrs p/a. How are the hours accumulated? Do the hours start, for example, 1 hr before flight to 1 hr after regardless of destination, or does it mean from arrival at home airport, doing flights, taking compulsory/negotiated rest time, returning to base and checking out.

[bondim]

Hello Robtheblade,

These hours are claculated from chocks-on till chocks-off, ie. when chocks are removed from in front of the aircarft wheels until after landing when chocks are placed to the wheels. So it does include taxy and any delays on the ground after pushback, ie waiting in the queue for take-off, waiting for a stand to become available after landing, etc.

The 900hr restriction is in place because of the harmful effects of cosmic radiation, if you are interested pm me and I can look it up for you in more detail.

Im not so sure about FDP (flying duty period), I think its from first push-back till half an hour after last landing. Im sure someone else can correct me on that one.

Restrictions on total duty hours (thats including all FDP I think) are also in place, but that has nothing to do with effects of radiation, more like to avoid fatigue.

Hope this helps.

Happy flying!

B

[Bealzebub]

The above answer is confused and incorrect, but in fairness it is a complicated subject with a gamut of variences, options and differences.

Firstly the 900 hour hour restriction is a core limit on the number of block flying hours that a flight crew member (pilot, flight engineer,) can aggregate in a 12 month period. It doesn't apply to cabin crew since they do not operate in a flight crew role. In the UK these block hours are defined by the Civil Aviation Authority Working Time Regulations. This defines a block hour as, the time an aircraft first moves from its parking space (including any push back) for the purpose of taking off, until it comes to rest on its designated parking position with its engines stopped.
That is the 900 hours you are referring to. This 900 hour restriction is one of the restrictions utilized in order to supposedly prevent the onset of fatigue. It has nothing to do with EU directives on cosmic radiation, which it obviously pre-dates, and which are a separate requirement.

Flying duty periods and duty periods affect all members of the crew, including the cabin crew. The cumulative limits on these are daily, weekly, and monthly. They may differ for different crew members and may be subject to various modifications.

A flying duty period starts at a time when the company requires a crew member (flight deck and cabin crew althougth these times may differ) to report for a flight, until the flight or series of flights arrives on chocks after the final sector. (It does not include any time for post flight duties after the the final sector.)

A duty period is any continuous period during which a crew member (flight crew or cabin crew) is required to carrry out any task associated with the business of the company. Clearly this would include post flight duties.

In summary the 900 hours is an annual flying hours limit on the pilots (operating crew) only. It has nothing to do with report times or duty periods. The limit also has weekly and monthly restrictions. It is flying hours as defined above.

Flying duty periods are assesed from the time the company requires you to report for work until the aircraft arrives on stand at the end of that duty day. However the duty period won't end until later. These periods are normally used for calculating allowable hours to be worked in a day.

Duty periods are the total period worked. There is usually no limit on these and they are used for calculating subsequent rest periods.

As I pointed out this is a very complicated subject, even for those of us who use it everyday. I hope the information provided gives you a basic understanding of the differences between the terms. They have quite different and important meanings, as well as in their subjective application.

[bondim]

Thanks Bealzebub for the much better answer that I gave.

May I point out though, that the 900 hr rule is also applicable to cabin crew, for the same reasons it applies to flight crew.It is in my ops manual somewhere, wen I have more time I shall go and find it for you, if you are interested.

Trust me, if it didnt apply for cabin crew, my mob would make me work so hard my tongue would be hanging!!

[Bealzebub]

Bondim, you are welcome.

CAP 371 sets out the framework from which individual UK operators construct their flight and duty time limitations. It can be found here. (http://www.caa.co.uk/docs/33/CAP371.PDF)

Under section 21 it states that:

21 Absolute Limits on Flying Hours
This paragraph does not apply to helicopter crew.
21.1 A person shall not act as a member of the flight crew of an aircraft if at the beginning of the flight the aggregate of all previous flight times:
a) during the period of 28 consecutive days expiring at the end of the day on which the flight begins exceeds 100 hours. (This means that on the 28th day a flight crew member may depart on a single sector flight, and may complete that sector, even though at the end of the flight the total flying hours completed in 28 days will exceed 100 hours. Consequently, the flight crew member cannot then continue to operate as a flight crew member on any subsequent sectors during that day); or
b) during the period of 12 months, expiring at the end of the previous month exceeds 900 hours.


The rules relating to Cabin crew differ in this respect as follows.

24 Rules Relating to Cabin Crew
24.1 The requirements detailed in this paragraph shall be applicable to all cabin crew employed as crew members and are not intended to apply only to those cabin crew carried to meet the provisions of the Air Navigation Order.
24.2 The limitations which shall be applied to cabin crew are those applicable to flight crew members contained in paragraphs 6 to 23, but with the following differences:
a) A flying duty period can be 1 hour longer than that permitted for flight crew. The
FDP and limits set on early starts for cabin crew shall be based on the time at
which the flight crew report for their flying duty period, but that FDP will start at the report time of the cabin crew.
b) For cabin crew the minimum rest period which will be provided before undertaking a flying duty period shall be:
i) at least as long as the preceding duty period less 1 hour; or
ii) 11 hours; whichever is the greater.
c) The combined sum of standby time and subsequent FDP can be 1 hour longer than that permitted to flight crew.
d) The maximum duty hours for cabin crew shall not exceed:
Single Day Table D
Any 3 consecutive days 18 hours
Any 7 consecutive days 30 hours
Any 3 consecutive 28 day periods 240 hours
60 hours in any 7 consecutive days, but may be increased to 65 hours when a
rostered duty covering a series of duty periods, once commenced, is subject to unforeseen delays.
105 hours in any 14 consecutive days.
210 hours in any 28 consecutive days.
e) The annual and 28 day limits on flying hours appertaining to flight crew need not be applied.
f) The limits relating to two pilot flight crew long range operations do not apply.

As you can see under section 24.1(e) the 900 hour annual limit is not a rule since it doesn't need to be applied. Your employer can elect to use the limit if they wish, and for practical purposes the other restrictions on FDP and duty times may well amount to little practical gain with or without the elected application. However the 900 hour annual flying hour limit is only a CAP 371 rule restriction as it applies to flight crew.

As I stated, it is a very involved subject that is often difficult to encapsulate in only a few sentences. The reference document I have cited, in itself runs to some 105 pages. Hopefully this serves to show the original poster the complexity behind the simple answer given.

[robtheblade]

Thanks Bondim & Bealzebub for your long and interesting answers. Now my head has stopped hurting, perhaps I should apologise and put my question a different way.

The BA dispute has thrown up some interesting "facts" re pay. One of them is that crew are paid an E/O payment of £2.75hr, sorry if that is the wrong figure but don't fancy going over 2000 posts. How is that figure calculated?

Thanks

RTB.

[bondim]

Thanks again, Bb, for your time posting this info.

My undrstanding of section 24.2 is that all that applies for flight crew also applies to cabin crew, but with some exceptions, which are listed below it That list does not mention the 900hr rule as something that is different for cabin crew as opposed to flight crew. Am I still wrong?

[Bealzebub]

Yes, I highlighted the relevant bit for you at (24.2e)
e) The annual and 28 day limits on flying hours appertaining to flight crew need not be applied.

[bondim]

I see....Thanks again, and PLEASE do not tell my airline about this!! :ok:

[jetset lady]

You sure about that, Bealzebub? I seem to remember this ruling being extended to cabin crew about 3 years ago. It caused chaos at the airline I work for and led to a large percentage of cabin crew being grounded, in some cases, for months.

I found the following in EU Ops but couldn't find a let out clause for CC. Trust me, I read it all....:{ (Pg 225 for anyone interested or really, really bored!)




1.11. Operating crew member:
A crew member who carries out his/her duties in an aircraft during a flight or during any part of a flight.


OPS 1.1100

Flight and duty limitations

1.1. Cumulative duty hours
An operator shall ensure that the total duty periods to which a crew member is assigned do not exceed:
(a) 190 duty hours in any 28 consecutive days, spread as evenly as practicable throughout this period; and
(b) 60 duty hours in any seven consecutive days.

1.2. Limit on total block times
An operator shall ensure that the total block times of the flights on which an individual crew member is assigned as an
operating crew member does not exceed
(a) 900 block hours in a calendar year;
(b) 100 block hours in any 28 consecutive days.


I may be totally wrong as I'll be honest and say I don't completely understand the difference between CAP 371 and The EU Ops regs, but as far as I'm aware, as a UK registered airline, we do have to adhere to EU Ops.

[BOAC]

RobtB - I'm not sure what an E/O payment is, but if it is 'flight pay' it is paid from report at base to off duty at base. EG If base is LGW, from report at LGW for however many hours or days until off duty at LGW again.

[robtheblade]

Many thanks for the reply.

Yes E/O = extra over all other payment. Those Sydney flights are a nice earner then:eek:

[jetset lady]

Robtheblade,

Only LGW crew are paid on an hourly rate and we certainly don't operate the Sydney route from there. May I ask what context E/O was used in, as in what crew were they talking about and what reason would it be paid for? Could it have been the suggested hourly rate for the New Fleet crew?

[Ancient Observer]

JSL is right about the 900 hours for CC.

It was invented by the EU to appease the Trades Unions, and although BA et al objected, the Brit office in the EU that were dealing with this , and a whole range of other non-Aviation matters, - a nasty palce called UKREP - ignored BA et al's objections and agreed on behalf of the UK Govt to apply the 900 hours limit to CC aswell as those in the pointy end.

There is not, and never has been, any scientific justification to the 900 hours for anyone on a plane. It's just a bit of history from many years ago that used to apply to pilots only that no-one in the sector has had the energy to want to change.

The reason that it caused problems for BA was that they had no effective means of either counting or predicting BA's CC hours against the 900 hours. Also, BA CC sickness levels for LHR based crew were circa 25%. Thus, they often schduled CC at lhr for a notional 1200 hours, knowing that many of them wouldn't turn up. I wouldn't run a market stall that way - let alone an airline!!!!!
Yup, JSL, LGW's record was not as bad.

[wiggy]

The 900hr restriction is in place because of the harmful effects of cosmic radiation

As an aside, that's the first time I've heard that and AFAIK it's not the reason - it's purely fatigue.