Jandakot Class D changes

[Green_pilot_79]

In reading the Class D changes for the 3rd of June i have seen not that much change for a VFR flights out and in. So you can come inbound from any position but ATC have the power still to guide you through the VFR appraoch points ???? .

Also the only other change is that all i do now is tell ATC my intensions etc on my taxi call now( which there was no call to be made taxying before at YPJT) and then they will clear me to the holding point and i just say ready when there. Doesnt seem much of a change to me :/

Yet to have a chat to my instuctor about this yet as I am away and cant make the CASA siminar either that they are running.

But if there is anything else im missing please do tell :)

[Icarus2001]

which there was no call to be made taxying before at YPJT) That would depend on which before. It is not that long ago that we used to give a taxi call at GAAP and then when you called ready ATC knew where you were going and that you had the latest ATIS. Then a bright spark decided a taxi call was not needed and so loaded up the ready call with all the useful information that used to be passed in the taxi call.

So now we go back to the future. :hmm:

[ContactMeNow]

Is a departure report required for every flight leaving the CCT area?

Freq could get busy......

[VH-XXX]

Departure calls no longer required for VFR.

[Clearedtoreenter]

ATC have the power still to guide you through the VFR appraoch points ???? .

From what I heard at the seminar, it seems likely that inbound calls from points other than the old reporting points, (where many of the accidents were that brought all of this on) will not be accommodated and you will most likely be politely requested to go to the old approach points. Looks like anything outside the circuit is still to be 'sort yourselves out boys and girls' - and if you crash into someone its your fault for not maintaining separation because you are VFR. Works great, until you get 3 or 4 aircraft at the same approach point at the same time. Situations with high wing silightly lower than low wing being channelled to the same point remain inherently dangerous.

We'll be much safer taxiing around on the ground now though, at 5 knots, with separation and clearance to anywhere with a yellow line on it.

The review of pricing at GAAP airports... er sorry Class D, will be interesting when all of this has to be paid for.

[Dizzy Llama]

(where many of the accidents were that brought all of this on)

many? - One (2RN), I think, in about 35 years of GAAP and umpteen million movements.

being channelled to the same point remain inherently dangerous.


possibly - but I would suggest not nearly as dangerous as coming inbound between two IRPs and directly into the teeth of multiple OUTBOUND aircraft. A major part of having IRPs is to segregate inbound from outbound.

[Ted D Bear]

Departure calls no longer required for VFR.


That's right - but AIP ENR 1.1 - 8.4.2 says you have to stay on tower frequency after departure until ATC tells you to change :ugh: I bet that ain't gonna happen

Ted

[David75]

A major part of having IRPs is to segregate inbound from outbound.

And yet from the documentation I've seen there is less importance on the outbound routes... I presume in practise everyone will still do what they did before. But the instruction to extend a leg of the circuit to depart seems a little less explicit than the current GAAP procedures.

[Captain Nomad]

Have a read of AIP SUP H28/10. When taxiing you will need specific clearance to enter taxiway B. They have also defined names for the apron areas which they will want to hear in the taxi calls both on initial taxi and on clearing the runway on landing when getting taxi clearance to the appropriate apron.

Fun times ahead for all... :ooh:

[David75]

When taxiing you will need specific clearance to enter taxiway B.


This could be interesting - I'm convinced they are just making this up as they go along.

[triton140]

At least for YSBK and YMMB (haven't checked the others) you're still required to arrive via the same old (but renamed) VFR approach points.

The CASA tutorials are quite misleading in this aspect.

[das Uber Soldat]

The whole thing is bull****. They should create a series of animated examples for different categories of operation complete with radio calls to give people an understanding for what is going on.

As it stands, i've read all the material sent to me, done the eLearning modules and still dont really have an exact idea of what to do/say come the 3rd. Im sure ill get by but it could be have been implemented better.

[kingRB]

I am expecting the new cloud separation standard of 500 foot below cloud will work really well for VFR traffic at YPPF in the coming winter :rolleyes:

Every VFR movement will need to be special VFR, and from what I can gather from the CASA training material, school ops will be unable to fly circuits if the vertical separation below cloud is not achievable..

[XX-ANY]

Dont forget to squawk 3k

[Ted D Bear]

And make sure you change from 3000 to 1200 (or 1200 to 3000) at the zone boundary

[AV8 consultants]

There was a meeting last night at RACWA outlining stuff that was not even discussed at CASA roadshow. Departure calls are required but if you forget they wont shoot you down. I suggest you ring RACAWA of the Jandakot tower and get filled in about the changes as they are significant and have been 'refined and tailored to suit Jandakot'. They also suggest you dont use SVFR unless absolutley neccessary as it can cause huge delays for traffic due separation standards.

[peuce]

... about the changes as they are significant and have been 'refined and tailored to suit Jandakot'.

Oh dear ...

[Captain Nomad]

Which really begs the question, why change from GAAP? That is what GAAP was for, special proceedures designed to maximise operations at a specific location. Not necessarily one size fits all...

[superdimona]

Please tell me that is a joke. What a nightmare.

[AV8 consultants]

Hey , we all dont like change but this stuff has been happening for years. So we adapt as usual. I was making taxi calls at Jandakot years ago and it should be no problem.
CASA has always wanted to align themselves with international rulings but as always they fiddle with it to suit their ideas. It has been going on for years. You can jump up and down and making noise but it wont do much. At the CASA roadshow they said they would not print the new Visual pilot guides until a significant time has passed and things have settled down.. so expect more changes. My guess is that we wil have GAAPs back in 12-24 months.
My only suggestion is that some bright spark does a cheat sheet of the new calls that we can understand as the ERSA and AIP has some ambiguities. So off you go !! All this stuff should have been clarified months ago by CASA not just in a brief last week in the roadshow. I would like to see what happens the first weekend of the changes when the weekend warriors start flying. I feel sorry for the tower guys. YOU can do it!:ok:

[peuce]

CASA has always wanted to align themselves with international rulings but as always they fiddle with it to suit their ideas

....... ideals?

[Ted D Bear]

There was a meeting last night at RACWA outlining stuff that was not even discussed at CASA roadshow.

This is great for people who were at the meeting. But there ought to be adequate online training, information and clear documentation (that doesn't leave many, many questions unanswered) for everyone


Departure calls are required


Only for IFR aircraft, from my reading of it. Does that include an IFR aircraft on a VFR departure :confused:. Who knows :ugh:

[XX-ANY]

8VA, what are the significant changes that were not captured on the roadshow or published in ERSA?

I will be calling SVFR if the cloud base is low enough that is what CASA said to do! or we will be breaking the rules!:ugh:

And if JT tower want to cancel my SVFR that's their call..

[AV8 consultants]

Ok guys if you are professional enough you will seek the information that you are not sure about from the correct sources. I suggest you ring the tower manager at Jandakot and talk to him. I could go on forever about what was at the meeting at RACWA but you should have been there. Mostly instructors attended but it was open to all. Discuss the procedures with your instructors.
As for the SVFR, the scenario was given that if you had 5 aircraft out in the training area and the weather was deteriorating on return if one aircraft requested SVFR when is was still VFR it would mean all the aircraft following close behind after it would have to also be svfr. SVFR requires higher separation standards and would cause greater delays for IFR aircraft who are arriving as the SVFR and IFR must be separated. So only ask SVFR when it actually is SVFR.
Airservices are not mandating the departure calls CASA is. Departure Reports are required for IFR aircraft and VFR aircraft that are departing into Class C airspace. No other aircraft are required to give a departure report.
Airservices Australia is the Air Traffic Control service provider and has been tasked by the regulator, CASA to implement Class D procedures at Jandakot.

So to all the grumble butts..You cant rely on the mountain to come to Mohammed so seek and you shall find!!!:8

[SayAgainSlowly]

And if JT tower want to cancel my SVFR that's their call..


TWR can't cancel your SVFR, just as they can't initiate it. But they can deny a clearance to facilitate separation with anything IFR or any other SVFR if it's due vis.

AV8, where do I start....


Ok guys if you are professional enough you will seek the information that you are not sure about from the correct sources.



The far majority of posters on this forum seem professional to me. If they're not then they are usually shot down in flames pretty quickly. What's not professional is claiming you know something about this process that, at the end of the day, might make this transition safer. The more everyone knows about this process the better.


I suggest you ring the tower manager at Jandakot and talk to him.


So the right source to ask is the guy that has to manage and implement this process yet had nothing to do with it? Perhaps the CASA ambassador to Pprune, Sake Skies For All, would be a better target to fire the barage of questions people have about this crap.


Departure Reports are required for IFR aircraft and VFR aircraft that are departing into Class C airspace.


Unless it's operationally required, VFR direct into C from a GAAP/D aerodrome is nothing but an unnecessary waste of time. VFRs should depart into G like the airspace was designed to accommodate (sorry, slight off topic rant).

Waiting for an IFR clearance is going to take long enough, let alone if your stuck in line behind a VFR asking for the same thing.


Airservices are not mandating the departure calls CASA is.


Pretty sure Airservices aren't mandating any of this sh#t.

[Charlie Foxtrot India]

I've spent a couple of days on a cheat sheet...(for my customers only :E)then the CASA guy came in today and told me different things to what the tower guy said yesterday...

As for SVFR. it is not the easy way around the D criteria, nor is the tower obliged to give it to you if there are other options.

It's going to be interesting...

[Awol57]

Departure calls are only required for IFR departures and VFR into adjoining D CTA (of which there is none at YPJT) and Class C (which you can't do HJ). 95% of our traffic therefore will have no requirement to make a departure call.

As much as it a large change we will be doing our best to help pilots out as well, not persecute you if you make an error. If it is VMC for the first few days most VFR aircraft won't notice a huge change - other than getting taxi clearances - to their flights. What we say to you will be somewhat different but hopefully not to confusing.

[peuce]

I suggest you ring the tower manager at Jandakot and talk to him.

AND

I've spent a couple of days on a cheat sheet...(for my customers only )then the CASA guy came in today and told me different things to what the tower guy said yesterday...

You may as well call the Townsille Refueller ...

Professional Procedures should not rely on the correct interpretation of heresay on a telephone call... Unless they put in ERSA that all pilots planning to Jandakot must call the Tower Manager for a briefing first!

"Your Honour .... Curly Controller told me that I should have zigged, not zagged"

"Your Honour ... I have no recollection of that discussion"

Professional Procedures should be available clearly and unambiguously in the documents.... full stop.

[YPJT]

Professional Procedures should be available clearly and unambiguously in the documents.... full stop.
Yes they should but lets face it, there has been ambiguity in documents pertaining to procedures that have been around for years.

As always, the CASA spin doctors will stuff it up and it will be up to the industry professionals to wade through the mess and sort it out.

[peuce]

Agreed.

However, is it not time that we say .... enough is enough?
Or, are you happy to clean up CASA's mess ... again?

Is it not time that CASA provide its interpretations, on paper, before implementation?

They obviously have a good reason for bringing in the change ... so they obviously would have thought this through ... so they can obviously answer ALL our questions, on paper ... before implementation.

IF NOT ... rethink the change!

[Josh Cox]

Page 84 may answer some of your questions, :).

http://www.icao.int/fsix/AuditReps/CSAfinal/Australia_USOAP_Final_Report_en.pdf

[Ted D Bear]

Professional Procedures should be available clearly and unambiguously in the documents.... full stop.


:D:D:D:D:D 100% agree!

[Ted D Bear]

Departure calls are only required for IFR departures and VFR into adjoining D CTA (of which there is none at YPJT) and Class C (which you can't do HJ).

Thanks, Awol57 - the report for the IFR departure I can glean from reading AIP and the online tutorial. But, if departing IFR (either into G or C), does the tower require a full procedural departure report as set out in AIP? Ie "ABC, departed at 23, tracking 291, climbing to 3,000, left 700, estimating Woop Woop at 47"?

Will this be required if IFR departing into G on a VFR Departure? (Not clear from any of the material I've seen ...)

You say a VFR into adjoining CTA needs to make a departure report :confused:. That's not what is says in AIP or in the online tutorial, though ...

If it is VMC for the first few days most VFR aircraft won't notice a huge change

That's good! What about the requirement in AIP to stay on tower frequency until instructed to change (which applies to ALL aircraft, including VFR)? Will the tower issue such an instruction to everyone?

And VFRs need to remember, when departing into G, to squawk 3000 until the control zone boundary, then squawk 1200 outside the zone, then reverse the procedure on the way back in from the training area ...

[Awol57]

As far as I know you will need to give the full departure call. We haven't been told otherwise.

I can't imagine we are going to give everyone a frequency change, however I did miss that bit so will ask the question.

It might be hugely different but maybe not its very hard to say. I guess we will find out on thursday, but its going to be new for us as well :)

[peuce]

Common sense is very admirable ... until something goes wrong!

In the event of an incident or accident, CASA/The Courts will revert to the letter of the law ... the documents.

So, if it says ... make a departure call ... I would think very carefully about relying on an alternate common sense action.

If you believe that the common sense action should be the law ... get it changed or get a CASA ruling.

[htran]

I really haven't noticed too much change at Jandakot in relation to arrival and departures, I've just got to remember to switch transponder codes, other than that, just arrive and depart via the same routes.

The only time I've felt inconvenienced was a couple of weekends ago it took me about 3-5 mins to get a taxi clearance as I couldn't get a word in with what appeared to be ground and tower(circuits runway) on the same frequency and lots of people talking over each other resulting in re-transmissions and more delays.

[Super Cecil]

As far as I know you will need to give the full departure call. We haven't been told otherwise.
Been operating out of D lately and the ole mate in the tower was still asking for VFR departure reports weeks after the implementation. When quized he said they could request it if they want to. They have stopped asking now :}