Heli down - Devon

[AnFI]

Anyone know about this?

BBC News - One person injured in helicopter crash in Newton Abbot (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/devon/8702136.stm)

One person has been injured in a helicopter crash in Devon. It is thought that the light helicopter hit power lines in the accident, in the the Poundsgate area of Newton Abbot.
Devon and Somerset Fire and Rescue Service crews were called to the scene at 1748 BST. They are absorbing fuel spilled from the aircraft.
The power lines have been switched off and the injured person has been taken to hospital. No-one else was involved in the crash.

[Hughes500]

MD 500E G-VICE hit a power line coming into land, flipped on roof. Owner the only person flying walked away with cuts and bruises, having a CT scan as a check in The RDE hospital

[AnFI]

... pretty machine ... seen it around.
news passed to friends who had asked me .. thank you.


(60% of wire strikes are into wires that the pilot knew were there..... )

[CRAZYBROADSWORD]

aircraft landed on it's roof and the pilot walked away with only cuts and bruise's I still say if your gonna have a crash the 500 is a great machine to do it in !!!!!!

[Helizoom1]

Pilot escapes with minor injuries after helicopter crashes next to Devon pub | Mail Online (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1281332/Pilot-escapes-minor-injuries-helicopter-crashes-Devon-pub.html)


That nearly WAS last orders: Pilot escapes with minor injuries after helicopter crashes next to village pub
By DAILY MAIL REPORTER
Last updated at 7:20 PM on 25th May 2010

A pilot had a miracle escape after he lost control of his helicopter and flew into power lines before crashing in a field just yards from a village pub
The man was flying low over Poundsgate, near Newton Abbott, Devon when he was heard careering into a series of overheard electric cables.
Onlookers heard a loud bang as the helicopter touched the power lines which ripped the rotors off.
The Hughes 500 came hurtling down into a field in a shower of sparks with fuel leaking from the tank.

http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2010/05/25/article-0-09BF6DFB000005DC-80_634x384.jpg
The crashed helicopter lies in a field near Newton Abbott after its pilot hit power cables. Miraculously nobody was seriously hurt in the crash


But incredibly the pilot was able to scramble free from the wreckage and was airlifted to hospital with minor injuries after the accident early yesterday evening.
June Hamill, landlady of the local Tavistock Inn, said: 'I heard a helicopter come across and it was a bit low and hit the power cables and disintegrated.
'It was a big bang and as it hit the power cables the rotaries came off and landed everywhere, and the helicopter just tipped into the field.
'The paramedics pulled him out and saw to his wounds, then the air ambulance, fire engines and police cars all came up soon afterwards.

http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2010/05/25/article-1281332-09BFE7D7000005DC-744_634x356.jpg
The stricken helicopter can be seen in the field, circled, just yards from the Tavistock Inn in Poundsgate, Devon


'He had a big cut on his head and other cuts but he was sitting in a chair and they kept him talking.'
The pilot, of Exeter, Devon, survived and was treated for minor injuries at the scene before being airlifted to hospital.
Emergency services who attended the scene switched off the power lines and closed a nearby road while debris was cleared away.
A police spokesman said: 'When police arrived a helicopter was found to have collided with power lines with the aircraft hitting the ground in a field, suffering severe damage and was lying on its side.
'The pilot was treated for minor injuries at the scene and taken to hospital by air ambulance. Nobody else was involved in the incident.'
The wreckage of the helicopter remained in the field today and the incident has been reported to the Air Accident Investigation Branch.

[pitot212]

sloPe:rolleyes:

[SilsoeSid]

That would be the 180° rotated 'p' at the end of 'surround'.

'There but for the grace of God go I.'

Sometimes it's easier to see things from the ground than from the air, like those lengths of D10 wire strung over the German countryside and the recently highlighted netting wires on sports pitches. Lets not forget the ever growing amount of aesthetically pleasing green wires we now have in the countryside.

Lady luck didn't pop down to Newton Abbot that day for a swift half, yet Mr Hindsight turned up to the party pretty sharpish.

Glad to see it wasn't more serious.

[500e]

Lost its rotaries, nasty.
Fuel leaking, strange as fuel bags are under floor, (unless there is a Fargo tank) there does not appear to be damage to belly panels

"But incredibly the pilot was able to scramble free from the wreckage"
"The paramedics pulled him out and saw to his wounds"
Where is the proof reader ? either he scrambled from wreck, or was pulled out.

[robin]

From the Exeter Express & Echo

'I just can't believe that I'm still alive' - pilot thrown about like a rag doll (http://www.thisisexeter.co.uk/news/just-t-believe-m-alive/article-2213985-detail/article.html)

http://i.thisis.co.uk/275567/article/images/2213985/1590867.jpg

HELICOPTER pilot Jerry Dunn has said he is "lucky to be alive" after walking away from a horror crash.

Mr Dunn, 70, escaped with only minor injuries after his McDonnell Douglas 500 helicopter collided with power lines and crashed.

And the experienced pilot from Longdown, near Exeter, insists he will be back in the air within months.

He said: "I feel lucky to be alive.

"This particular model of helicopter has an A-frame inside and that is what saved my life. It was like a cocoon. If it had been another type of helicopter I may not be here."

His helicopter crashed near Poundsgate, Dartmoor, near Newton Abbot, at about 5.40pm on Monday.

He said: "The tail came off, and the rotors. I was flying to pick some people up. I have been to that place loads of times but there was a north-east wind so I had to come down a different way.

"There was a gap but I did not see the wires."

Grandfather Mr Dunn, who lives with his wife Pat, 61, suffered two cracked ribs, lacerations to his head, a large cut to the back of his head and bruising.

"I dropped 40ft," he said. " The electricity wires were like a bungee. They extended and then it was like a catapult. It sent me backwards and rolled me several times before hitting the deck. I was like a rag doll inside.

"I was very lucky to come out of it alive. I tried to pull up but it all happened so fast.

"I was also concerned that the aircraft was going to blow up and catch fire. Luckily part of the helicopter had snapped off and blocked the fuel line. Somebody up there must have been watching."

Mr Dunn, who has been flying for 20 years, said he has never been in an accident before.

He said 95 per cent of helicopter crashes were due to pilot error.

He added: "I will be back up again in a couple of months."

Ron Doe, 70, witnessed the crash as he waited to be picked up for a flight in the helicopter.

Mr Doe, who is from Brighton but was on holiday in Torbay, helped the dazed and injured pilot from the chopper.

It crashed in a field opposite the Tavistock Inn, in Poundsgate.

Mr Doe and his wife were due to go on a pleasure flight with pilot Mark Wilkinson, who was going to take over flying the chopper, when the drama unfolded above them.

He said: "The helicopter hit power lines. It was like fireworks going off.

"We were standing with Mark who was going to take us out for a flight.

"We knew the pilot, Jerry, was due in about 5.30pm and were waiting for him."

He revealed: "The helicopter came in a bit low over the trees which obscured the power cables.

"The trees are green and the power cables are green.

"As he tipped the nose down the front caught the cables. For a moment I thought he was going to break free because one of the cables broke, but then he went down.

"He came in as if it was a normal flight. Mark realised he was coming in too low and ran down the field trying to tell him."

He added: "There were sparks and flashes all over the place. Once it tipped him off he cart-wheeled down the field. It looked like fireworks going off. It was lucky he missed us all.

"Some of the bits of the helicopter flew over the hedge into the road."

Mr Doe was just 40 feet away as the helicopter hit the ground.

"We ran to the helicopter and got the door open.

"He was bleeding pretty badly," said Mr Doe.

"We got him out. I put my handkerchief over the cut on his head but he was bleeding through that. It was really scary.

"I have never felt better than when I looked at him and he was looking back at me smiling.

"It was really scary. My wife is very shaken up by what she saw.

"But it has all turned out all right in the end, apart from the helicopter.

"I really must convey my thanks to the emergency services. It does not seem like there was any time between the crash and the ambulance, police and fire service arriving on the scene. They did a great job."

About 150 homes lost their electricity because of damage caused to the cables.

Workers for Western Power Distribution restored power by midnight.

Nobody else was involved in the incident, which has been reported to the Air Accident Investigation Branch.

In a statement a spokesman said: "We are investigating through correspondence with the pilot."

[Hughes500]

I loaded the wreck on to a trailer this evening. All fuel had leaked out , all landing gear dampers had sheared off. Blades had taken doghouse and tailboom clean off. Rotor head had failed on the actual casting, all blade pins intact ! The actual A frame completly intact. As loss adjuster said pilot would be dead in any other type of light heli. I now have even more faith in the machine, hats off to the 3 designers who designed this in the 1960's:D

[SilsoeSid]

I think the article Robin has posted highlights a lot of potential Emmental slices, which should make the report an interesting read.

[west lakes]

Just for clarification, it looks from Google Earth that the overhead line he struck was a four wire, in vertical formation, 415/240V line, that runs across the southern end of the field he was landing on. (though the height quoted as 40ft is a bit high except for pylon lines, 20ft would be more accurate).

The reason for the "green wires" is the natural oxidation of copper wires, as new they would have been nice and shiny copper colour, but over the years they turn to green
Why does copper turn green? (http://www.finishing.com/261/74.shtml)

[SilsoeSid]

That's weird west lakes. How come most of the wires in the countryside and all of the wires out of the countryside just turn a dirty dark?

Sorry, couldn't find a smart link for "Why do power cables in the countryside get a green coloured sheath?"

[Hughes500]

West Lakes

3 wires in horizontal formation, about 25 -30 ft high. He missed the 1 st one and broke the other 2

[west lakes]

Some could be aluminium which turns a dull grey, from above copper doesn't look green, it's only when close up you can see the colour!

[west lakes]

Hughes
Ah that would be either 11 or 6.6kV, thinner wires and harder to spot, though that is unusually high!

[Lala Steady]

Shall we call that a p*ss poor recce then?

[west lakes]

This post I made some time back may be of use

http://www.pprune.org/5302910-post10.html

[SilsoeSid]

If the wires were/are green, it is because they have a green sheath.

[west lakes]

Some stuff put up in the 60's had a green PVC sheath, but it was not used everywhere, looking at the HV line at the north end of the field it looks to be bare conductor, I would suggest witnesses saw the wires close up and could see the green oxidation

Looking from the east, powerline is above the white (fenceline) in the center

http://i225.photobucket.com/albums/dd161/west_lakes/devonfield.jpg

Street view

http://i225.photobucket.com/albums/dd161/west_lakes/devonwires.jpg

From the north
http://i225.photobucket.com/albums/dd161/west_lakes/devonfield2.jpg

[SilsoeSid]

west lake,

I will bow to your 35 years experience in this field, but there are some newer green sheathed power lines round these here parts.

SS

p.s. Does street view show anything?

[west lakes]

Sid
Quite possible, different companies use do use different conductors at times.

There is some modern plastic covered stuff, we have some but it is black, though it's feasible that a green coloured version is available, I'll see what I can find out tomorrow

[SilsoeSid]

Interesting thread on the below link, especially as this was said...
Mr Dunn, who has been flying for 20 years, said he has never been in an accident before.

He said 95 per cent of helicopter crashes were due to pilot error.

He added: "I will be back up again in a couple of months."


Civilian Aviation • Home to the Civilian Aviation Enthusiast • View topic - Pilot recovering after Poundsgate helicopter crash (http://www.civilianaviation.co.uk/forum/viewtopic.php?f=113&t=2737&start=0)

Postby Razor61 » Tue May 25, 2010 11:36 am
I had a feeling it would happen as i said to my other half i had that "inkling".
G-VICE MD-500 Helicopter was zooming east across Budleigh Salterton beach yesterday afternoon and up over the cliffs. IT then came zooming over the cliff tops very low and dived towards the sea across the beach heading back west again. Shortly afterwards it hit powerlines near Newton Abbot, Devon.
Pilot is okay, but the helicopter is a right off.... Rotor detached and blades flew everywhere according to eye witnesses and the helicopter ended up on its side.

That's the one!
Sounded lovely as usual.
Often see it zooming around the south coast of Devon but he was certainly having "fun" yesterday. The way he came over the cliffs and came down like something out of a film! Awesome to watch.
Sadly about 15 mins after i watched him, he had hit the powerlines.


I think he was probably doing a Magnum and flying it like TJ in the opening credits

<object width="480" height="385"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/3CquMO3vJvo&hl=en_GB&fs=1&"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/3CquMO3vJvo&hl=en_GB&fs=1&" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="480" height="385"></embed></object>

[loggerman]

couple of quick questions:-
1,Did he have wirecutters on the machine ?
2,If they were not fitted would it of saved the day if they were fitted ?
3,How effective are they and what thickness wire will they cut through?

[on21]

From the pictures in the above "magnum" link there were no cutters fitted. (Just an incidental from other accident discussions, I thought eye witness put aircraft way too low and all that, so why post all the above drivel?)

[SilsoeSid]

on21,

Sorry you think it drivel, but it appears that allegedly someone saw the aircraft 'doing a TJ' 15 minutes before the accident.

However, I'm sure the report will decide what is drivel, hearsay and relevant in this incident, especially if the ac had a GPS fitted.

SS

[Hughes500]

Sid

There wont be much of a report, I notified the aaib, who due to it being pilot error were not interested in any investigation as to what happened. Report will be based on pilots report

[SilsoeSid]

That's a shame H500, it sounded as if it would be a good CRM case study.
:(

[Hughes500]

Ah CRM, would that be for single pilot operations " I have f...ed up so I will give myself a good talking to !
Basically he came in too fast without doing a recce, had landed in the next door field more than a 100 times. Complancey breeds contempt

[Thomas coupling]

Is that the lesson you are passing onto ab initios in the helo world then Hughes?

I think one would agree, one was a very very lucky person to get away with one's life......

[SilsoeSid]

Nice one Hughesey,

So, CRM doesn't apply to single pilot ops then! :eek:
This is a classic example to show that it does, and it's a pity that the 'I'll give myself a good talking to' that you refer to, doesn't translate to, 'I will give my recce an extra going over as this is not my normal landing site'.

There are a lot of things that could be discussed about in this incident, things that would come up in an open forum discussion about it, however rather than let the old speculation chip warning appear, let's just look at the 'FACT' that someone who knows the pilot, the landing site and the nature of operations at the incident site tells us,

'Hughes500'
Basically he came in too fast without doing a recce, had landed in the next door field more than a 100 times.

Ignoring the speed, that you cannot verify and the lack of pre landing recce, that unless the pilot admits to not doing, you cannot comment on, we must look at the part of your statement that says they "had landed in the next door field more than a 100 times".

I do wonder, if after landing in this normal LS of a field time and time again, they had ever seen these wires or indeed taken the opportunity to familiarise themselves with the area of operations from the ground perspective as there were many opportunities to do so. If this opportunity was taken, perhaps these wires, any other obstructions and lay of the land would have been seen and appreciated. Perhaps even looking around the site for different approach headings that would be available, depending on the wind direction of the day for example.


The good thing about this incident, apart from the lack of injuries, is that the rest of us can learn from it and will take that extra bit more care when circumstances dictate that we do something slightly different from our normal routine. That Hughesey, is what CRM is about, and if you and others from the 'CRM doesn't apply to the single pilot' mentality world took more notice of it, incidents like this would happen less frequently.

Looking at it in hindsight?..Yes I am. Because that's what CRM allows us to do and learn from.


http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2010/05/25/article-1281332-09BFE7D7000005DC-744_634x356.jpg (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1281332/Pilot-escapes-minor-injuries-helicopter-crashes-Devon-pub.html?ito=feeds-newsxml)

[SilsoeSid]

Hughes 500;
Ah CRM, would that be for single pilot operations " I have f...ed up so I will give myself a good talking to !


CAP 737
Crew Resource Management (CRM) Training (http://www.caa.co.uk/docs/33/CAP737.PDF)

Chapter 9
CRM for Single Pilots

8.1 Self Assessment
The single pilot does not have the benefit of feedback from another crew member and therefore has to learn from his own experiences. However, much can be gained from a little self analysis. After a flight it is worth reflecting on what went well and why this was the case; what did not go so well is probably more easily recalled and one can speculate the reasons for this and how one could handle a similar situation in future. The problem with self assessment is one of keeping a balanced view. This may be helped by discussing events with a colleague who can give a more independent opinion. This will also allow single pilot crews to gain some benefit from each other’s experience. A mark of good CRM is being open about one’s mistakes and sharing the experience with others.

[SilsoeSid]

Mr Doe and his wife were due to go on a pleasure flight with pilot Mark Wilkinson, who was going to take over flying the chopper, when the drama unfolded above them.

From G-Info page here, (http://www.caa.co.uk/application.aspx?catid=60&pagetype=65&appid=1&mode=flightmanual&fullregmark=VICE&fmcode=217) do the figures from page 4, in this supplement, (http://www.caa.co.uk/docs/DecOfFlightManStd/0217_CAA_SUP_1_ISS_3.pdf) apply to this flight?
Seems like a small field.

[griffothefog]

Chapter 9
CRM for Single Pilots

8.1 Self Assessment
The single pilot does not have the benefit of feedback from another crew member and therefore has to learn from his own experiences. However, much can be gained from a little self analysis. After a flight it is worth reflecting on what went well and why this was the case; what did not go so well is probably more easily recalled and one can speculate the reasons for this and how one could handle a similar situation in future. The problem with self assessment is one of keeping a balanced view. This may be helped by discussing events with a colleague who can give a more independent opinion. This will also allow single pilot crews to gain some benefit from each other’s experience. A mark of good CRM is being open about one’s mistakes and sharing the experience with others.

But without 2 crew members, how does he get his hug? :ugh:

Maybe we should all go to self assessment therapy classes once a week as well and try and discover the deep rooted reasons why bizarrely we all think we can imitate bees for a living :E

In day's of old one hit the bar, ordered a pint, gave the day a quick glance over and moved on... advances in technology are the only reason safety in the industry remains high.... human nature is impossible to change and for every CRM up to speed Captain safe out in hover land, there will always be the complete opposite flying around somewhere :ugh:

FWIW, I have attended at least 5 or 6 CRM modules as both a single pilot and as part of a multi crew and have thoroughly enjoyed them all, but have they really changed the way I think when out there on my own????

Dunno :confused:

Be honest, most of us are a "there for the grace of god" merchant from some time in the past, so let's not get too carried away .....

[Hughes500]

CRM courses do not have to be done by pplh. I can think of loads I have done that refered to problems within the cockpit and had very little to do with single pilot ops !!! My comment was slightly oh ever tongue in cheek. What went wrong is not doing as one is supposed to and being too flash coming into land. Too exubrient flying
SS and TC have you spoken to the pilot about the incident ? I have I know exactly what speed he says he was going at, do you ? A pilot I trained was on the ground, I have spoken to him , have you ? Personally for the ac to hit 2 wires and then continue for 100m plus it was going faster than the pilot thinks he was going at.( 40 kts )
Have either of you been with a pplh I have trained ? I have argued long and hard that the pplh sylabus is wrong, it pays more attention to inadvertent flight into imc, than confined area training. Lets be honest most ppl's once they have a shiny new licence will go and land in a friends field ( what helis were desighned to do)not fly in bad weather and risk going imc. The LPC doesnt really have a check on confined areas, I put it in as part of different landing profiles.
Yes I even did a confined area in Mr Dunn's last LPC which was about 2 months ago, which he did do a recce, into a field with wires round it. What he does or any other pilot does when he is away from me I cant look after

[SilsoeSid]

Enough back covering Hughsey.

Of course we all know that CRM doesn't apply to ppls or single pilot ops does it? Smell the coffee and discuss this incident a bit more. Things like;

http://www.thisisexeter.co.uk (http://www.thisisexeter.co.uk/news/just-t-believe-m-alive/article-2213985-detail/article.html)

He (Mr Dunn) said: "The tail came off, and the rotors. I was flying to pick some people up. I have been to that place loads of times but there was a north-east wind so I had to come down a different way.

Mr Doe and his wife were due to go on a pleasure flight with pilot Mark Wilkinson, who was going to take over flying the chopper, when the drama unfolded above them.




You can see the Emmental slices lining up !

A pleasure flight.
The PPL owns aircraft.
The PPL/Owner flying in the pleasure flight.
A second pilot, (presumably a CPL/ATPL) conducting pleasure flight.
The PPL/Owner reported to be 'doing a TJ' just before the incident.
The PPL/Owner wants to make pleasure flight more enjoyable. "What went wrong is not doing as one is supposed to and being too flash coming into land. Too exubrient flying"
The CPL put in awkward position.
The CPL worries about next job.
The PPL?Owner/Employer wants to take control...

etc

This incident could have been a lot worse with 4 POB!

You still haven't answered the question about the acc-stop distances required for any public transport flight applicable to G-VICE. And while we are here, under which AOC was the flight going to be carried out?

IllegalPublicTransportPRCampaign (http://www.caa.co.uk/docs/1196/20071015IllegalPublicTransportPRCampaign.pdf)

Just that I can't see Mr Dunns name here;
Air Operator Certificates | Flight Operations | Safety Regulation (http://www.caa.co.uk/aocholders)

[chopjock]

Silso,

And while we are here, under which AOC was the flight going to be carried out?Are you under the impression that all pleasure flights must be classed as public transport and require an AOC?

[SilsoeSid]

Chopjock;
Breakfast feeding time is it !

Are you under the impression that all pleasure flights must be classed as public transport and require an AOC?

If the passengers have paid to be carried, Yes.


Referring to all the reports on the incident, there is no mention that the passengers that were to be carried were friends of Mr Dunn, or anything that leads us to believe this was nothing other than a pleasure flight, that any reasonable person would think would have been paid for.

http://www.thisisexeter.co.uk (http://www.thisisexeter.co.uk/news/just-t-believe-m-alive/article-2213985-detail/article.html)
Ron Doe, 70, witnessed the crash as he waited to be picked up for a flight in the helicopter.

Mr Doe, who is from Brighton but was on holiday in Torbay,...

Perhaps H500 could possibly tell us this was not the case?

If not, I will refer to the CAA Publication, linked above, about Illegal Public Transport Flights, where it says;
However, if any passenger has paid to be carried, the flight is classed as public transport, and is illegal unless the operator holds an AOC.

Oh, and you may also have read;

It is important to note that the contributions can include methods of payment other than money, e.g. free advertising or payment in kind.


Though the vast majority of flights - particularly to, within and from the UK and EU - are operated in accordance with an Air Operator’s Certificate (AOC) which is a legal requirement, there are unscrupulous operators who choose to circumvent the system. It is very much in passengers’ interests to avoid being carried aboard illegal flights. Compliance with the higher safety standards demanded of AOC holders is expensive but any short-term cost advantage to the passenger in lower fares can so easily be outweighed should any accident or incident occur.


However if H500 can tell us that this would not be classed as a Public Transport Flight, then I will wind my neck in, apart from asking where we can get these free pleasure flights from!

[Hughes500]

SS

Looks like you are going to wind your neck in. It is only a public transport flight if the pax are fare paying pax. If Mr Wilkinson ( type rated pilot)was hiring the ac off Mr Dunn again it is not a public transport flight. If the pax were paying a proportion of the flight ( not including the transit flight) then again it is not a public transport flight, providing the flight was not advertised, unless advertised within a flying club.
Would suggest before you stick head above the trench you should check your facts, saves neck winding at a later date. However I do not know what if any money was changing hands so I may have to wind mine in !!!!!!!:ok:

[nigelh]

Sid . I love the way you aoc boys get your knickers in a twist :ok: And you really think that just because you fill in forms in triplicate and get bent over and arse whipped by the CAA your flight are safer ??????? All you guys who have let the CAA ruin your industry are to blame for the current state because you have all stood in line , been robbed and said nothing :{
I have done thousands of hours without an aoc . I have had thousands paid without an aoc . I have been perfectly legal without an aoc . I have written emails from the CAA that it is legal . So yes , he could be paying and he could be leasing the aircraft and it would be perfectly legal . So there :ok:

[SilsoeSid]

H500

Looks like you are going to wind your neck in. It is only a public transport flight if the pax are fare paying pax.
However I do not know what if any money was changing hands so I may have to wind mine in !!!!!!!:ok:

Guess an investigation may have been quite interesting, hey ho!


Nigel, are you an MP? Not doing anything wrong until book fiddling found out eh!
If I came to you for a pleasure flight, would you be telling me that I wouldn't be paying for a pleasure flight as such, but simply hiring the aircraft?

I refer to the CAA publication;
there are unscrupulous operators who choose to circumvent the system. It is very much in passengers’ interests to avoid being carried aboard illegal flights. Compliance with the higher safety standards demanded of AOC holders is expensive but any short-term cost advantage to the passenger in lower fares can so easily be outweighed should any accident or incident occur.

Oh look, mention of the words safety and standards! So maybe it's not just me that thinks an AOC holder would be a safer bet for my pleasure flight.

Do you do extensions?

[nigelh]

No i am not an MP !!!! And no i wouldnt take you for a joy ride ...but if you wish to do a formal lease for a number of hours then that could be arranged properly and legally . Dont be fooled by the CAA ...they have to do something to justify charging you many thousands to make sure you are safe dont they ? I still dont see how a flight in the same helicopter and same pilot can have different safety just because some forms are filled in ...do you ?? In fact the rules say that sometimes an owner is NOT allowed to use a companies professional AOC , CPL all whistles 10,000 hr pilot ....but CAN use a PPL or newly qualified cpl with no experience or company behind him . Explain that one to if you can .
example . you own an AS 350 ( no floats )and have it on company X AOC and wish to use it yourself for a private flight say to Battersea. You are low hr PPL and want the AOC to provide you with pilot just to be sensible . or maybe you will be returning in the dark and have a new night rating but want to be safer with experienced pilot .

[Hughes500]

The real laugh about having an AOC is where you can land and where you cant.
Here's an example PPLH with less than 100 hours can take 4 pax and land in a EC120 at The Saunton Sands Hotel perfectly legally. Yet the same aircraft on an AOC with a professional pilot in with say 10000 hours on type is not allowed to land there as the site does not have 550m take off run ( that is the distance required for a 120) Now please tell me SS which would you prefer to be a pax in ?

[nigelh]

In reality there are very few private sites /gardens that would be legal for public transport . There is no point getting upset as all they will do is make it illegal for private as well !!! There are so many areas that they have got it all wrong that it makes you wonder whether they are not actually just eco warriors in disguise slowly ridding the skies of polluting choppers !! When it comes to safety how can it possibly ever be safer NOT being allowed to have an experienced CPL ???

[SilsoeSid]

The real laugh about having an AOC is where you can land and where you cant.
Here's an example PPLH with less than 100 hours can take 4 pax and land in a EC120 at The Saunton Sands Hotel perfectly legally. Yet the same aircraft on an AOC with a professional pilot in with say 10000 hours on type is not allowed to land there as the site does not have 550m take off run ( that is the distance required for a 120) Now please tell me SS which would you prefer to be a pax in ?

I'll take the one that doesn't crash just outside the pub thanks!
:p

[griffothefog]

If one is going to terminate the flight in spectacular fashion as mentioned above, then the local IS the only place to do it :E

Cannot think of a better place to give myself that group hug and CRM de-brief along with a pint and a packet of crisps :ok:

[SilsoeSid]

If one is going to terminate the flight in spectacular fashion as mentioned above, then the local IS the only place to do it :E

Cannot think of a better place to give myself that group hug and CRM de-brief along with a pint and a packet of crisps :ok:


I've heard about that one griffo, isn't it called the 'Hip flask Defence'?
:suspect:

[Hughes500]

SS
I like your political answer :ok::)

[902Jon]

along with a pint and a packet of crisps

Guess the old pork scratchings aren't an option out there Griff ;)

Jon

[Swiss Cheese]

This issue stops being theoretical when there is a crash and the ensuing stewards enquiry kicks off, ably assisted by insurance company lawyers looking for reasons not to pay up for the owner/operator/pilot/hull/pax laibility claims etc. I have seen that happen too many times in the past 20 years.

There are ways that pax can pay, but ensure the small print in your insurance policy will come to the rescue if you have a bad day - as that may well cause more of a problem than the CAA.

The CAA leaflet about Fare paying Pax is too generalist, and does not cover the ground in sufficient detail - probably for reasons that we all know and suspect to be true.