Logbook Question

[ezy-pilot]

Hi,
I have been going through my logbook,
I have several departure arrival times missing from my logbook ie: 11.10-12.10 although i have the block hour times.

is this acceptable to CAA/JAR/JAA/FAA/EASA/who ever cares?
or do i need to ring around to get these times? (considering one captains dead and airline is downtubes gonna be v.difficult!)

[ab33t]

The FAA log book does not even have columns for times and I have left out many times in my JAA log book and it was not an issue .

[wheelbrace]

It will become an issue when made an issue... I would suggest that if you have a chocks off or chocks on time and duration of that time that you simply 'do the math'.

If you don't (and I assume this is the case here), then I would be getting in touch with the operator for confirmation of the times NOW. trust me - you do not want this as an issue when you apply for your final CPL MEIR bits of paper!

Sod's law dictates that this will bite you on the backside at the first opportunity.

[Agaricus bisporus]

Why would you want to record arr/dep times in a logbook? As stated above many logbooks don't have a column for times.

No requirement for dep/arr times.

Requirement is; date, airframe, pilot's/s' name/s, route, duration and in what capacity you operated. End of. All else is "for info".

[what next]

No requirement for dep/arr times.

If you are flying under JAR/EU rules, then JAR-FCL 1.080 applies (see here for example: http://www.caa.co.uk/default.aspx?catid=175&pagetype=90&pageid=7224 ). "(iii) Place and time of departure and arrival (times (UTC) to be block time)" No mention of "optional" or "for info" anywhere.

[BillieBob]

If you are flying under JAR/EU rules, then JAR-FCL 1.080 appliesNot necessarily. If you are flying in the UK then Article 79 of the ANO 2009 applies, taking precedence over JAR-FCL. So long as you make the minimum entries required by this legislation you can add (or not) anything else you like. Consequently you may, if you wish, comply with JAR-FCL 1.080 but there is no legal obligation to do so.

[wheelbrace]

It is better, surely, to get the universal input to your logbook habit as soon as possible.

My problems started when some bright spark noticed I was was logging a block time of less than the time put in the dep/arr slot. Reason? Dep. time was engine start, arr. time engine shutdown - for my own reasons. Despite it being obvious that I was not diddling the system, shiny arsed bureacrat decided investigations involving receipts, invoices and confirmations from operators and headaches all round were required.

Pissed off? I'll say!

[Agaricus bisporus]

Well, if you're going to go logging engine start and shutdown times and passing them off as block times "for your own reasons" then no wonder that "some shiny arsed bureaucrat" smelled a rat. What else would he think of such a bizarre procedure? The fact that your "block" times did not correlate with start and finisg times indicates something very unusual going on, and he isn't to know that you've invented your own definition of start and finish times, is he?

Why would a presumably professional pilot not log times correctly? Ususlly, there is only one reason, not so?

[wheelbrace]

Agaricus bisporus - please read the previous post carefully - all the block times were less than the engine start/shutdown times, as was acknowledged at the end of their 3 month investigation.

If I had logged the times as first takeoff and last landing (for example) then the block time would have been more and would maybe have warranted looking into in depth.

As a consequence of bad advice from an FTO in early PPL days a job in SA (including return flight and 208 rating paid for) went for a burton.

As I suggested earlier, please do this checking now, before you think that the CAA will issue your bits of paper.

[ReverseFlight]

There are jurisdictions which insist on start and end times, notably JAR and Japan.

If your logbook has those columns, my advice is make sure you leave no gaps (eg Jepp International Pilot Logbook, Jepp Master Log). Better still, switch over to a logbook which does not have such columns (eg ASA) if you can at all help it. My first logbook (Pooleys) had such time columns in it and not surprisingly I abandoned it early on in my career.

[Agaricus bisporus]

Wheelbrace, thank you for your patronising advice. Had YOU read my post properly you'd see that all I said was that if your sums don't add up then the "shiny arsed bureaucrat" will smell a rat.
What the hell else would you expect him to do?

Whether your scam (as he sees it) is to over or under represent your numbers is irrelevant. What planet do you inhabit? If you present unnecessarily complex accounts and aren't smart enough to ensure that they tally then it is perfectly reasonable to assume that you are up to no good.

As a Professional Pilot you are required to record your flying hours correctly and as detailed by the relevant regulations, not in some random way that you've invented "for your own reasons".

AS RV says, keep it simple. Add unnecessary detail and you add more grief, especially if you can't manage to make 2 + 2 = 4 when just 4 was a good enough answer in the first place.

Do otherwise and how can you expect but to be seen as a potential fraud, increase or decrease in hours notwithstanding?

ps. block hours have nothing to do with take off and landing times either. Praps you'd better go back to the books and look up what defines the length of a flight...