Is it still worth it?

[Cumulusfreesky]

Hi folks, been awhile since I last posted, but I totally love this forum and have been reading several posts, albeit irregularly..

Lately I've read the news about how a singaporean spent SGD$140, 000 on training to be a pilot at sia flying college as a private candidate and graduated with a license, flight hours only to be rejected from SIA itself...he was peeved about it, posted his thoughts on the news and was given a tactful reply.

I am wondering out loud to all our fellow aviators/aspiring aviators...if pursuing a career as a pilot is worth the effort anymore despite the uncertainty, working conditions, etc?

I am one of those people who loves flying enough that when I was training for my PPL, I'd be content to just hang out at the hangar near the runway, watching planes land and takeoff after/before my flight lessons...it seemed like the best period of time in my life, and I wasnt getting paid or anything, it was challenging juggling school, flight lessons/exams, extracurriculars...but definitely fantastic, because I was fulfilling a childhood dream.

However, as I grow up, I've become more cautious after reading so much about the industry (alot from this forum)..so much more is at stake now it feels, you're older, got more responsibility,etc etc...but still there's a side of me that wants to put all of the negativity aside and give commercial flying my best shot, to take that risk.

I hope to seek your opinion on whether such notions are worth heeding, are these times okay for letting reason and logic drive me, and people in a similar situation, towards completing college and getting a job or should passion still play a role in fighting for the chance to be a pilot with a commercial airline?

thanks for your thoughts.

Edited to remove TXT SPK

HWB

[alphaadrian]

If you have got lots of spare cash lying around for your training or your father is the CEO of an airline then i would say go ahead. If you want to do the training and dont want (or need) a flying job at the end then go ahead too.
But if you dont have the cash or need to borrow it or expect to get a job at the end I would consider it VERY carefully. I have 2500hours and a TP rating. I am unemployed since my company went bust in march. 500CVs later (world-wide) and nothing yet. If thats what its like for me..what will it be like for your with a new license and hardly any hours. My advice is ..enjoy your ppl. Thats fun flying.

ps i dont want to paint a bad picture or complain but i think you need to realise how the industry is at the moment. From your post..it does sound like you have a pretty good idea already.

Whatever you decide to do. I wish you good luck. If you decide to train ..then i wish you VERY good LUCK!!
Alpha:ok:

[Poeli]

I also ask myself this question from time to time. But in the end it still is I think. As long as you do it modular, work and study while you're doing it, and most of all, enjoy while you're doing it it's worth it in my opinion. Just make sure you have a job or a decent degree, because at the end of the ride, you will probably need it!

[fly_antonov]

........No

[fanda78]

I have looked in this thread to see what kind of negativity has been added by FlyAntonov... Man you are getting be(i)tter and be(i)tter :-)
Now lets wait what Muddy Boots will bring...
:ugh:

of course it is worth it!:ok:
you just need three things:
1. Money
2. Time
3. Support from your partner

[B2N2]

This board has been getting very negative over the last year or so.
A buddy of mine just got hired flying 737 in the UK with maybe 500 hrs total time.
It's possible......it's not easy but it's possible.

[Uncle Wiggily]

Ultimately, it is your decision if you want to do it. Best of luck if you decide to embark on the journey. I know it is your dream and I hope you achieve it.

Just remember that you are entering a career that many people would do for fun and for free....er wait, actually there are people who do this job for free. If anything, this career is an excellent lesson in supply and demand economics. (and contrary to what you may have been told, there will be no shortage of supply.)

Good luck.

[Openclimb]

I am one of those people who loves flying enough that when I was training for my PPL, I'd be content to just hang out at the hangar near the runway, watching planes land and takeoff after/before my flight lessons...it seemed like the best period of time in my life, and I wasnt getting paid or anything, it was challenging juggling school, flight lessons/exams, extracurriculars...but definitely fantastic, because I was fulfilling a childhood dream.

Most people are like that, I certainly was.

After 10 years doing the job though, Id say, get a well paid 9-5 Mon Fri Job and fly on the weekends for fun.

Do you still think you'll be hanging round the airport to watch some extra take off and landings after having got up at 0400 for the fourth time on the trot and worked an 11 hour day?

[clunckdriver]

NO! My pension is twice the pay of many captains flying the line these days, also my charter pilots make MUCH more than most airline types, to solve this your generation must do the following,{1} Kill all the pay2fly twits{2} NEVER pay fpr a PPC/TR, kill those who do{3}Join the most militant right wing union out there, kill any who dont join. See how simple it is? Oh yes, one other thing, dont get caught doing any of this, it might be a tad illegal in some countries.

[fly_antonov]

of course it is worth it!http://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/smilies/thumbs.gif
you just need three things:
1. Money
2. Time
3. Support from your partner


No you need 5 things:
1. alot of money
2. alot of time
3. trash the partner, down the line it saves you money and all the drama
4. alot of luck
5. alot of stupidity to go commercial right now

If only you knew how happy I am that I did not pursue this route you would not be arguing. The other day I crossed a young greenie in pilot school uniform on his way to his flight school and I felt very sorry for him.

It is not worth it but if you feel like selling it for whatever interest you have, you should do that and keep people who give real advice based on real facts and realistic analysis outside of your reply because no one cares but your sorry self.

Becoming a pilot is such a short-sighted dream, can you fella' s really imagine doing this for over 30 years and nothing else of your lives?

Your short answer will be yes.
First commute to the airport everyday for 10 years, at the craziest hours, into the same cockpit and eating the same food doing the same job being treated like **** by management as usual, with decreasing pay and pension, fearing for every line check and medical, fearing for your job during every downturn and living at your mom' s to repay the debt.

Then come back and we will talk again.

[Anne.Nonymous]

Great reading fly antonov's posts!

He is a whizz on aerodynamics, performance, crewing requiremnents and has an outstanding knowledge of various schools such as Oxford.

It's hard to believe that he is just a 22 year old with a PPL!

Anne:)

PS quote from the bottom of this page
sciolist"... Noun, archaic. "a person who pretends to be knowledgeable and well informed......

[V1 VR V2]

If you really want it dont give up! It is worth it i got my licence in Feb 2010 and i have secured employment in the UK flying SEP aircraft and its the best job i have ever had and you realise when you get there its worth every bit of it! Might not be flying a shiny jet or turbo prob but its still flying and thats what its all about.

PS i got offered the job with only 300TT i have CPL MEIR G1000 so it can be done but i got plenty of knock backs!

Good Luck!

[Halfwayback]

V1 VR V2

Congratulations - it's good to hear a success story in these difficult times!:ok:

HWB

[bpcy22]

So fly_Antonov, How is that different from most peoples jobs?

Most people have boring commutes at various crazy hours, Management who don't care about the individuals just about profits for themselves, lower pay each year, lower pensions, performance reviews each year which don't necessarily reflect in pay rises or keeping your job in recession times etc... we all have those problems.

I say go for it if you can afford it and can live with the risks....better to be trying to gain your dream than living to regret it later in life when all opportunities have passed.

BP

[Cumulusfreesky]

notice how replies are replete with reason and there are those which encourage passion despite any odds (which makes sense too, cuz each individual is unique, who knows i could be one of the few who gets a break and make it in time to smile and enjoy a career too...no matter how bad the supply/employment situation, the management issues, or flight routes/hours...for all those who disagree, life in the 9-5 isn't all cosy either, there are problems too, and if you aim for good paying jobs here, the problems are somewhat similar, there aint no shortcuts either way)

what i'm most impacted by is the middle ground offered by Openclimb: work hard, get a good 9-5 job, and fly on the weekends/during holidays. i think this is smthng i can work towards, and have some peace of mind with regard to medicals, checkrides, etc.

i have deep respect for those made it already despite the problems they've faced(not sucking up, i mean it :). congratulations!

after reading all the replies, i'm deciding that while i work towards college graduation, i'm going to figure out if I can mitigate the risks involved in pursuing my dream, and i'll go give this dream my best shot if I can.

this is because i've experienced the feeling of waking each day looking forward to flying even in times when everything else in life was going ****ty (for 2 years). and i've experienced the times when everything was fine, but i just hated my job, haha surely lots of us have had that happening in our lives. Given we spend so much time at work, i'd opt for the former, and work really hard at making those things that matter to me work out well, like family, etc.

thanks for the advise everyone, truly appreciate it. and happy flying :)

[fanda78]

:hmm: well we can just guess what has happened to someone who did not get to fly Antonov
:{run out of money?
:{did not find a time to study?
:{partner got fed up and left him?
:{feels unlucky?
:{and believes that everyone who disagree with him must be stupid?
could be one of these, could be all...
but why is he still hanging around wannabes forums when going commercial is such a stupid idea? :confused:

bpcy22: spot on - you have stolen these words from my tong! :ok:

[milanius]

Looking at the subject of the thread, I think it always WAS, IS and WILL be worth it!

Guys, lets look at this together:
Most of us are by nature "linear" people. Since we are born, we have clear rules to follow - obedience to authority, hard work and cooperation with others. The "System" promises to us, that, if we take this stepwise journey, happiness will be ours.

We graduate from some university. Get a B.Sc or M.Sc etc... still, we have to admit, we are just one of many. Also, it's not guaranteed that we will get a job we want, most likely we end up somewhere, 9-5pm, in the working environment we can't stand. Yeah, money might be good, but colleagues/boss suck. Or, vice versa... Sounds familiar?

So, you have a secure job, wife/husband, kids, and yet... you are feeling lost and angry at the same "System" about not getting your part of the bargain !! Ask your friends, and most of all, ask yourselves:

"What is the biggest chance you have ever taken?"

You will then begin to realize what "safe" lives we have chosen to lead. The ways people test themselves are foreign to most. Something is lost in our obsessive concern with safety and security - some spirit of adventure. Life is a gamble in which we don't get to deal the cards, but are nevertheless obligated to play them to the best of our ability.

For myself, though a straight line appears to be the shortest distance between two points, I WILL take this "detour", because it is exactly those detours that define us. There are no maps to guide our most important searches; we must rely on hope, chance, intuition and a willingness to be surprised.

For the end:

Once I read from one pilot:
"... I hope that when the airspeed indicator reaches sixty that I can pull back on the yoke and the thing will fly. I've had the physics explained to me a hundred times. Bernoulli was fortuitously correct. But it still seems like a miracle."

[Poeli]

I tend to agree, but it still doesn't mean that you should go and give your money away in a way you still won't find a job just because so you can say I took a chance in my life. Yes you should certain take chances with a certain risk, but not those where you might end up living on the street for the next 15 years and spending 100k on flight training as a 18 year old...

[Jay_solo]

I think all pilots must have a Plan B when planning this career. Have a solid fall back career. Preferably in something outside aviation and something in constant demand. E.g Allied Health care. But ultimately something you'd enjoy doing outside flying.

I would say, do not take out a massive loan to pay for your training, especially now. Instead work and pay from your own savings for the initial training and hour building.

The fact is, there is an almost exclusive and elusive club being formed by the state of the industry: Type rated - ATPL club. In other words, if you don't have a type rating and/or ATPL hours, you will be at the bottom of the list when the airlines are short listing.They want the cheapest means of getting new pilots. Low houred means mega $$$£££ for type training, with the chance you might leave for another airline after a year or two.

If you got the money, and time and you are focused, get your ratings done, get a 9-5 job, enjoy life and fly on a weekend with friends. Forget the industry and job market for now. Keep IR current, and update your CV until something catches your eye. but lower your expectations.Thats the best way to handle things.

But if you don't have the cash in hand, and have to borrow heavily from a bank, i'd say think about that long and hard!

And never assume that this job is 100% solid for a career. Enjoy every flight hour you get as a pro or amateur like its your last. You never know when it will all come to an end. Like being diagnosed for Type 1 diabetes or other illness which prevents you holding a medical. Ouch!

:ok:

[fly_antonov]

Oh Fanda, you are an embarassing and silly figure, no less than I would expect from a forum like this one, where alot of people get excited for nothing.

Piloting is a job like anything else.
There is always advantages and minuses to every job.
There is no point in pointing out positive aspects of the job here. You know them yourself as we all do.
I wish people on Pprune were more mature so that they could give you what you are looking for, to help you take the right decision for yourself. Silly people complain when I write about realities that they have been avoiding.
That does not help you at all, that is why I will give you everything you don' t want to read to help you answer your own question.

In the begining there is that special feeling because you feel priviledged to do something special et al. "You have a dream", you buy and pay your way in.

If it was really such a dreamjob, why would we see so many active pilots complaining about their jobs? Strikes here, strikes there, complaints about rosters, safety procedures, salary, career advancement, seniority, pensions, management, co-workers, job security, .........................
Forge it in your mind that salaries and terms can only decrease, they will never ever increase again.
Once you find employment and the dust settles, you will find yourself confronted with these problems for real, it' s not just something we hear on the news.

Later on, when you retire you look back at your life and realise that you haven' t done much more than pushing buttons and levers fighting against time, trapped in an aluminium cage with flat screens that indicate where you are and where you need to go and how your metal box on wings is behaving, for nothing.

If after reading and imagining what it really is and doing more research you feel very certain that you will be able to live with all aspects, good or bad, of spending more money regardless of chances of even getting in that metal cage, to get that "dreamjob", then you should carry on.
If you take that route, then I expect of you to not come and complain about not being able to find a job or about your worsening T&C' s a few years later.

A small piece of advice to those who are yet to make the step, from someone who has asked himself the same question for 3 years.
Plan ahead, consider alternatives, back up plans, know when you need to wait or give up and

never let your feelings make you take irrational decisions

[PIELORD]

fly antonov

You've made you decision now off you go, and live with it........

Let others make their own decisions......and if they choose to seek out those who have experience in aviation to help make their decisions. Then there are plenty of people on this site who can provide advice from their own first hand experience.

Which brings us nicely back to you. You have nothing to offer, so why do you spend so much time putting forward that you do?

Added later...

So there are are plenty of people such as WWW et al who can offer advice, palatable or not to aspiring pilots. However, if prospective pilots come here and have to wade through countless didactic diatribes from people with little knowledge or experience, acting some may say to help validate their own decisions. Then it becomes more difficult for the opinion of those who can speak with experience to get through.

[fanda78]

Realities? and can you tell us where from you have these realities?
Maybe I should mention that I (and so does my wife) work in aviation industry most of our life and I think I have fairly good insight and understanding of this beast...

with no disrespect - but what experience in the field you have to allow you to give even small piece of advice?
-are you retired pilot? you talking about retirement
-do you work as a pilot that you know about T&C getting always south?
-are you wannabe who spent all his money and did not get job
...your profile doesn't show much hence the question...

btw: you are asking for PPRUNE user to be more mature and in first line of your post you call me embarrassing and silly figure - do you think it
is mature???

[fly_antonov]

See how mature this site is :D
A 32 year old and 34 year old chasing their dreams with eyes closed and who come here to argue about someone else' s decision when they have thrown alot of cash and haven' t even landed a job yet.

If you are already training and you are very comfortable with your decision, you would not mind reading what is written here.
If you are already training and you are not comfortable, then you better move on, keep your head in the sand, before it affects your motivation to finish your course.
If you are not training yet and you are really motivated to make it your llifelong career, not your short-lasted wet dream, then you need to consider all this.The OP is not comfortable with his decision so he is asking the question.

I don' t find it necessary to put down my background or experience, especially to challenged people like these ones who like to live in the dark cave. I have been there and unlike the above kids I have been able to resist the temptation though I was alot more motivated than they were, because no matter how hard it was I confronted myself with today' s realities.

Today, I am very happy I did all that.
My alternative plan has worked out to become my main plan and I am now surprised at how easy it was for me to walk away from piloting. My new aviation career is bringing me alot more than I would have achieved as a pilot. Today I can focus on saving money, maybe get up a small aviation business on the side with some friends in 10 years or so, build a home and a family.

This all to say that it is possible to walk away without regrets, by exploring other paths in aviation that one underestimates as a pilot trainee.
Management at airlines and airports is full of people who have once dreamed of becoming pilots.

[Anne.Nonymous]

Fanda

Read his previous posts (click on his name and use the find other post function!) and you will see what a sciolist our friend fly_antonov is!

You will see that he is 22 and has a PPL!

I leave it up to you to draw your own conclusions!

Anne :)

[fanda78]

:hmm:well he sums it up - he walked away from pushing for his dream...:hmm:

[wheelbrace]

I find this thread sad - there are egos in the aviation industry that would teach Mussolini a thing or two.

Regardless of fly_antonov's position on the greasy pole, I suggest that the bile and invective should be directed at the FTOs and individual charlatans who, while technically being correct err on the amoral side of business practice.

fly_antonov - if you are indeed the puppy that Anne.Nonymous suggests, read the last two lines of W.B. Yeats' 'He wishes for the cloths of heaven'

...I have spread my dreams under your feet;
Tread softly because you tread on my dreams.

Although out of his context, they are appropriate for thoughts here. I, for one, would appreciate some compassion for people trying to get useful, thoughtful information from useful, thinking people.

[flyvirgin]

Becoming a pilot is such a short-sighted dream, can you fella' s really imagine doing this for over 30 years and nothing else of your lives?
Fly antonov
You should take them bloody blinkers off, you talk a load of b%^$ks, why dont you try doing a manual labouring job, then tell me what you would rather be doing, sitting in a flight deck or running up and down scaffolds for the rest of your life for £120 a day,
Every post of yours is moan moan moan, I dont know what you situation is, and to be honest I dont really care,
Why dont you take your negativity else where, while your at it "grow up,get some life experience" and lose that chip on your shoulder

[fly_antonov]

Annenonymous, what is your qualification, what is your opinion about the OP' s question and what arguments do you offer?

Annenonymous works as a pilot for BMI since 14 years.
If there is any truth to that, what do you know about becoming a pilot in today' s world? 14 years ago you had free or cheap flight training, free type-rating, free line training, airlines were hiring and you were offered a career.

I have been fortunate not to have to pay for any of my type ratings


Today you are a bus driver for a regional airline on its way down, who has no idea what it means to pay over 50K for training, 30K for type-rating, 20K for line training and still not being able to find a job, let alone a job that pays the bills and the mortgage with a minimum of job security.
I am a person who has been confronted with the decision of pursuing or not in today' s realities for aspiring pilots.
Annenonymous seems to be very happy with his own career and criticises colleagues who are complaining about T&C' s. That in itself is either exceptional or stupid.

Annenonymous likes to point people to former posts as can be seen from his own history.
http://www.pprune.org/terms-endearment/141061-bmi-strike-post1483768.html#post1483768

Strangely enough he likes to comment on people who are taking a hard stand against P2F. Wait a second, you actually defend people who pay for their line training at BD and you defended the program?

Not good, really not good.
You must be drewling for that management position or maybe you are management sucking in young people' s money. That also explains your exceptional behavior above.

He does not bring any value to any discussion as can be seen from his post history. None of his writings contains any arguments, only useless comments on other posters on useless matters like "closed cockpit door policy".

http://www.pprune.org/search.php?searchid=6535433

You hide behind a female alias, to avoid being attacked. You clearly do not want your identity to be compromised.
So you are either lying or you don' t want people attacking you on the internet. What a small heart you have.

Is this the guy we want to sit next to in a cockpit? A guy who knows he is right and everybody else is wrong but is afraid of mentioning who he is? A guy who says "he is only aged XX and only has a PPL and is therefore not entitled to express his opinion"?


Here I did exactly what you did and it is so childish that I would be ashamed to call myself a pilot, let alone a captain at BD with 14 years of experience.

Shame be on you.


well he sums it up - he walked away from pushing for his dream...


Yes I woke up and found an equally challenging, more rewarding career path. That was my choice, I don' t have a pinch of regret and I love it. This all to show that all the "fear of regreting" is a mountain of **** when you face the real issues.

There are alot of people around me whom I had given advice to. Today, all but the people high on ego tell me that I was right and that they better had waited. I have seen one crying because he bought a type-rating against my advice. Out of pity, I always offer to pay the drinks.

[Anne.Nonymous]

Annenonymous works as a pilot for BMI since 14 years

True - and thereafter you make a lot of assumptions that are wrong!

Annenonymous likes to point people to former posts as can be seen from his own history. Yes because that way you can judge a person by what they say.
If you don't like what you have written being quoted - don't write it!

You clearly do not want your identity to be compromised. How crass - its an anonymous forum! Those who have met me at Pprune bashes know who I am - how about you?

he is only aged XX and only has a PPL and is therefore not entitled to express his opinion"?

Read again - I didn't say or imply that. Everyone is entitled to their opinion.

As to being female - no problem. We even have numerous female pilots - and even a TRI - in BD! We have flown an all female crew (including CC) on several occasions.

Enough - I have fed the troll too much!

Anne :)

[Halfwayback]

OK - stick to the original post or risk being deleted.

HWB

[Pugilistic Animus]

you should fly for flying sake, similar to ars gratia artis those who look too hard at a shiny jet never get there...you fly because you love flying and would gladly... instruct..fly the KingAir,...banner tow...teach aerobatics...do airshows...for that much money you could have been an unlimited aerobatic champion by now...with sponsorship; I guess Bendix is not good enough for anyone:rolleyes:...have another job,... be a surgeon ...but if you want to fly professionally there's many avenues...:bored: [what's he on about]


I feel bad that everyone thinks the airlines or corporate is the end...it maybe the beginning...sheesh that tuition could have gone toward TP school....yet I don't feel sorry for them:{

[daydreamer89]

To Antonov:

Hi, I have had a similar experience to yours. As a 17 year old the only thing i had in my mind was flying. Somebody then told me to expand my horizons a little; go travel, work, study and then when you've tried out a few things and gained some life experience decide what you want to do. Today I am pursuing something unrelated to aviation.

With that said, I think it is important to respect other people's decisions in life whatever they may be. You have had your experiences which have lead you one way, others have had theirs. There is no right or wrong.

I wish everyone good luck in whatever they decide to pursue in life. As long as it means something to you, i think it's right. Also remember if it doesn't work out there are plenty of other things that will excite you, i'm sure.

[flyhelico]

flyantonov is right...

several of my friends fly big planes and are just bored.
one told me each time he stay in the cockpit for 10-15 hours (B777), he asks himself:" what I am doing here? will I do this the rest of my life??"
he sticks with his company for the money.Once he enter in the cockpit, he knows he won't get out for 15 hours!!! he is tired, can not sleep well...

another one I know, on B747, is sick of jetlag, hotels...why he stay? for the money! tired too....

learning to fly is interesting, but doing the same procedure everyday , is very boring. Everyday the same procedures, same callouts...4-6 times a day!!!
I think this job is pretty much limited...no much to learn. Once you got your ATP, you will understand what I mean.it's not like flying a plane on Simulator X or FS 2004.

don't focus on airline jobs only! anyway there is no job for a 200 pilot...so keep dreaming...no one will give you a job!

[FANS]

Guys - it is a job at the end of the day so you need to manage your expectations! Try being in the back of a 744 and then doing full day meetings/emails/stress when you land