SHELL Carnet cards

[Chu Mai Huang]

Shell is closing the exisiting Shell carnet cards on 31st May and launching Shell Fuel and Fly cards. Only problem is...... they will not issue one to Joe G.A. Average without an ABN and they demand 10,000 lt min. (not sure if that was per year or per month - either way, it's a shirt load of juice for a private owner)

So how do we get shell swipe bowser fuel now?:confused:

[Jabawocky]

Yes thats correct, and all our local friendly refuellers and oil suppliers are getting shafted.

I hope the Townsville refueller is with Mobil, as the BP folk (ask Desert Flower) and the shell folk....ask 185.....are pretty much screwing it up.

J:rolleyes:

[Counter-rotation]

As bad as Mobil screwed it up in 1999/2000?? :sad:

CR

[FRQ Charlie Bravo]

Or when Mobil screwed up with their new you beaut system about 6 months ago... and the new your beaut carnet cards required to operate these bowsers that came out about a months later?:ok:

FRQ CB

Credit Cards at the Shell bowsers... it's about friggin' time really.

[Clearedtoreenter]

One has to wonder who is doing the shafting and/or being shafted in the Avgas business.

Too true FRQ!:ok:

[Jabawocky]

Ahhh yes but the Mobil guys for the moment still have their business, the shell guys were just told to sod off!.

Credit card bowsers are a good idea, but why shut down the fuel guys who ran the CARNET accounts?

What you are not remembering is....they also sold you oil, they did the daily checks and reports and when something went wrong they were not far away to fix it, or pump you fuel on their account and you paid them for it.

Thats all history now. But someone still has to do the daily checks etc, so while your wise cracks about the Mobil fuel contamination are all valid....and lest face it there are not many outlets around for GA anyway, its all the BP and Shell fuel resellers I feel a bit sad for.

J:sad:

[VH-XXX]

I wonder how they would know how to contact you if the fuel was contaminated like last time.

You could use any old credit card to buy or, or someone elses for that matter.

If using my credit card in the long term equals a lesser price for AVGAS then that's a good thing. It must have been costing them too much to be giving everyone 30 days credit - can't blame them.

If the CC system works well, then so be it.

[Jazzy78910]

Thinking back to times of waiting for a representative to come and sell me fuel manually, this would be a god-send! Definitely opens options for refuelling points on longer flights.

[bentleg]

Shell say their bowsers will now accept credit cards. Thats fine with me.

[Ultralights]

the last 3 credit card Shell fuel bowsers i used in the last 2 weeks didnt work! Caboulture, Ballina and taree.

[VH-XXX]

As I understand it the bowsers don't yet accept credit cards and my Eco-friendly letter from Shell yesterday says that they are being rolled out at the moment.

As of a couple of weeks ago the one a Moorabbin had the credit card part taped over until the changeover date.

If you have had trouble trying your credit card it will be because it's not yet active.

[Aerodynamisist]

I hope they don't take a $1000 dollar deposit every time you swipe your card and then don't give it back for 24/36 hours like the aero refuellers bowser's do. There a bastard if you have to pay your motel bill with the same card or if the bowser doesn't work the first time then swipe again and scratch another $1000.

[VH-XXX]

You'll have to increase your credit limit man!

[Jabawocky]

aero

dont they ask you for a dollar amount first...the one at YTEM does and I assume that is "pre-authorised" and you only get billed for what you take.

I am not sure...but I think thats how it should work.........but may not have for you!

Carry two Visa cards is the answer!:ok:

[Aerodynamisist]

Yes some ask for a pre authorised amount. Aero refuelers take either $1000 or $750 regardless then refund the difference at a later date. Private systems around the traps like kingaroy or walgett just take the pre-authorised amount. At two tanks of 100LL "pilot coolant" a day it racks up quick.

[Jabawocky]

So where are the aero refuellers sites?

[VH-XXX]

The one at Narromine shows your account balance on the screen for everyone to see. I think they jack up the price if they know you are good for it :-)

[Jetjr]

You are asked for approved amount, $100, 200, etc etc
It seeks approval for this amount from Credit card owner - VISA etc. This is applied to your account
Total from actual transaction is then applied and adjustment made

Retailer nevers sees this over charge/refund bit but it turns up in credit card account until refund is transacted. It is even wiped from your statement so unless you look at balance at the wrong time or buy fuel close to the end of period you wont even know they are doing this

Support is the problem when these machines break down, which they do.

FYI Narromine pricing is improved too, Shell supply some of these private retailers and screw them around big time with pricing. Even send out "suggested retail pricing memos"

[AeroRefuellers]

I'm from Aero Refuellers and i just wanted to make it clear that Aero Refuellers has nothing to do with holding back a certain fee from your credit cards which is normally $1000. When you use your credit card at a credit card accepting bowser Aero Refuellers charge your credit card for the fuel usage but the merchant Bank that looks after the credit card bowser holds a security fee until the transaction for the fuel has been accepted. Once this has happened the money will be release back into your credit card. We don't believe this is an i ideal thing to do but if we are to be setting up credit card accepting bowser, this is the process that has to be taken. Apologies for any inconvenience and we hope that we can continue to assit you any way in the future.

[AeroRefuellers]

Below are a list of our Aero Refuellers locations. You will be able to access Avgas and/or JetA1 at these location by either swipe card bowser or fuel truck.

If you require any further information, i'd be pleased to help

BATHURST
CANBERRA
COOTAMUNDRA
COOMA
COROWA
DENILIQUIN
DUBBO
GOULBURN
HAY
NARRANDERA
PARKES
PORT
MACQUARIE
SCONE
TAREE
TEMORA
WEST
SALE
COFFS
HARBOUR

[Horatio Leafblower]

With all that HTML'ing, Can you help us? Looks like you need OUR help there B :} :ok:

[KRviator]

I'm from Aero Refuellers and i just wanted to make it clear that Aero Refuellers has nothing to do with holding back a certain fee from your credit cards which is normally $1000. When you use your credit card at a credit card accepting bowser Aero Refuellers charge your credit card for the fuel usage but the merchant Bank that looks after the credit card bowser holds a security fee until the transaction for the fuel has been accepted. Once this has happened the money will be release back into your credit card. We don't believe this is an i ideal thing to do but if we are to be setting up credit card accepting bowser, this is the process that has to be taken. Apologies for any inconvenience and we hope that we can continue to assit you any way in the future.So you're saying your merchant takes more money than you invoice/charge for the product supplied? Then gives it back once they're happy?

Last time I bought fuel at the local servo or groceries at Woolies, the amount that came off the credit card was the amount I was charged. There was no "security fee" charged. Might be time to look at another bank for your business methinks....

[UnderneathTheRadar]

KRAviator

It unfortunately makes sense. When you swipe the machine, they need to know you can pay for the fuel - that the credit card authorisation is going to be approved. Otherwise you could fill will fuel, have the card transaction declined and then bugger off with full tanks.

At Woolies, you only swipe at the end - after they know the bill - and if your credit card gets declined, you don't get your supper.

It's not AeroRefuellers fault that credit card systems can't handle pre-authorisations without actually registering a transaction.

One presumes that Shell Credit Card bowsers will now have to do the same thing?

One question I have over all this is - my understanding of carnet cards was to make sure that the local petrol heads didn't pop down and fill their cards with high octane fuel. How is this prevented under the new system? Are they only installed at 'security controlled' airports so the revheads need to show an ASIC?

[Jabawocky]

UTR

Don't ask intelligent questions like that, you know better!

[AeroRefuellers]

Clinton

We do have some ideas about setting up an installation at West Sale, although nothing is set in concrete as yet. My boss has been speaking to operators on the airport there and also the local council about the installation but nothing has been agreed upon yet. I'll keep you posted.

[VH-XXX]

After you swipe your credit card you are asked for the "pre-auth" amount. It's certainly not $1000 or anything silly... I typed $60 last night and was most upset when it stopped at 36 litres :-(

[VH-XXX]

West Sale unfortunately might not sell enough volume to warrant a bowser. The last bowser there was condemned; from memory it was privately operated.

[Peter Fanelli]

One question I have over all this is - my understanding of carnet cards was to make sure that the local petrol heads didn't pop down and fill their cards with high octane fuel. How is this prevented under the new system? Are they only installed at 'security controlled' airports so the revheads need to show an ASIC?


Don't think so, Carnet cards have been in existence since long before card swipe facilities came into being. They were more like the Myer, David Jones, John Martin cards your mother used to use to buy your school clothes, only really intended to be something that could imprint your account details on a sales docket.

[Desert Flower]

Don't think so, Carnet cards have been in existence since long before card swipe facilities came into being. They were more like the Myer, David Jones, John Martin cards your mother used to use to buy your school clothes, only really intended to be something that could imprint your account details on a sales docket.

PF, I think that was the case with the original carnet cards (i.e. around 20 years ago) but the ones now can either be put through an imprinter or they have a magnetic strip on the back for swipe bowsers. They are made so that an Avgas carnet will only activate an Avgas bowser when swiped & a Jet A1 carnet will only activate a JetA1 bowser when swiped.

DF.

[havick]

how about my all time favourite..

Call ahead to an aerodrome that provides Jet
Arrive at said aerodrome
Get tanks topped up with Jet
Provide Shell carnet card for payment
** Get stung ridiculous call out fees when the fuel contractor has provided ERSA details stupilating 'NO CALL OUT FEES'

FYI, Arrived mid afternoon at said aerodrome on a saturday.

[VH-XXX]

I thought that one of the purposes of Carnet cards was to ensure that a fuel purchase was mapped to a purchaser, thus if there is contaminated fuel out there, then there's no way to trace the purchaser if they use a credit card.

???

[blacknight]

I had occasion to need fuel at CB twice over the last 2 weeks. Card wouldn't work both times. Enquired amongst the locals. Bowser has been playing up for a few weeks. Delays in getting the truck busy fueling jets. Very frustrating!!
Card works fine everywhere else!

[ForkTailedDrKiller]

When you use your credit card at a credit card accepting bowser Aero Refuellers charge your credit card for the fuel usage but the merchant Bank that looks after the credit card bowser holds a security fee until the transaction for the fuel has been accepted.


Assuming the bowser works!

Does the Canberra bowser ever work? The post above would suggest that it has been down for at least 3 weeks - since I was last there !

Dr :8

[Jabawocky]

:\:\:\

WORKS A YCAB now atleast...................

XXX are you here yet?????:)

[AeroRefuellers]

Yes we have been having some difficulties with the Canberra bowser yet again. Apologies all for this, i know how frustrating it must be. If you have an Aero Refuellers card it will still work on the bowser, although if you are using a credit card it will not, for the time being. This porblem arose as the network provider we were using, Vodafone, decided not to tell us that they were closing thier network down in that area. After some lengthy investigating, we have now been told that we can hook up to Telstra network for Canberra. This process is still a couple of weeks away from happening as there is a backlog of bowser that need to be changed to the new network. What will happen is we have to take the current bowser out and replace with a temporary bowser. This should only have the bowser offline for around an hour. Then it will go down to Melbourne to be reconfigured and then will return hopefully in full working order. For the mean time i have spoken with Caltex and they will provide fuel for credit card users only. Yes they do use the truck to fill up pre-ordered aircraft fuel, so there may be a wait for fuel for you.

If you would like to apply for an Aero Refuellers card you can download one from our website at www.aerorefuellers.com.au (http://www.aerorefuellers.com.au) or you can contadt Brendan in our Albury office on (02)60411 599

[davebowyer]

I located this thread following a trip to YSCB on Wednesday. I'm a 50+ hour student pilot so I'm a bit new to this and I was completely shocked after buying $50.24 worth of Avgas from Aero Refuellers' bowser in the YSCB GA parking area to be hit by a $1000 card authorisation on my credit card. Nearly 48 hours it's still there on my bank account and MY bank has charged me a $9 payment dishonour fee because the $1000 card authorisation caused my debit card balance to drop below $0.

I made a few calls to Aero Refuellers and just got off the phone with the owner/operator Andrew Heath, who was good enough to call me when notified of my issue. He restated the rationale mentioned in this thread about why the card authorisation takes place (and mentioned in passing that he's been fighting it for years). Also - apparently - there is USUALLY a sign on the YSCB bowser advising of the $1000 charge, but evidently that sign was missing when I used it on Wednesday. I'm not greatly happy with the situation, but Andrew's phone call to me demonstrates some customer focus on Aero Refuellers' part and at least an awareness of the impact that this practice has on unsuspecting customers.

The joke of it is, I was flying a Piper Warrior. At current prices it couldn't even take $200 worth of Avgas even on completely empty tanks! :ugh:

[Chu Mai Huang]

So let me see if this is right...

You swipe your card and ZIP! $1000 is "reserved" off the card by "the bank"? :=WHY?

You pump $50 worth of gas which goes to Aerofuellers and the rest is "held by the bank" until they work out you didn't nick the other $950 of gas? You continue on your way to the next stop, swipe again, another thou gets reserved.... :=

For what other product you buy with a credit card does this happen?
NONE I have ever experienced. It sure sounds like a bank scam of some sort - but what's behind it, why? Or is it just in the way Aerofuellers have their bank account set up (ticked the wrong box??? or just been advised wrong by some rubber desk Johnny at the bank?) If every other business in Australia can operate without this crap going on, what's so special about Aerofuellers? THAT is the question.

Can someone here in the banking sector clarify WTF this is all about?:(
How can we help Aerofuellers help us? They obviously aren't "asking the right questions" of the bank.

Daveb... how did it appear on your credit card statement - what description?

[VH-XXX]

When you buy a poduct at a retail outlet, you pick it up off the shelf, then present your credit card and pay for the item. If you don't have the funds, you don't take the item. That won't work with fuel unless you prepay.

That being said I was sure when I filled up at Shell Moorabbin, Temora and Narromine that I entered an authorization figure and then it let me fill to that amount. Interesting if the system has changed since. Prepay seems an obvious solution however can be a bit annoying if you underestimate.

[T28D]

The simple solution is get a BP carnet

[Ultralights]

what happened to good fuel planning and a calculator? depart YSBK will brimmed tanks, used 70 to get to Walgett, pump price is $1.89, so 70 x 2$, ill pre approve the bowser for $140. simple.

[ForkTailedDrKiller]

The simple solution is get a BP carnet

Exactly how is that going to help you get fuel at Canberra? :confused:

Dr :8

[mnehpets]

For what other product you buy with a credit card does this happen?


It's quite common. Putting a hold on credit card funds frequently happens for hotels and rental cars. Oh, and "gas stations" in the US. That's why they ask for your credit card at the beginning of your stay/rental.

Putting a $1000 hold is quite extreme, though, particularly since there wasn't any warning in this case. Oh, and not immediately reversing the hold after actual payment was collected is very lame.

Some banks will show you the total amount of credit holds online (st george does this for me).

Anyway, see http://www.ftc.gov/bcp/edu/pubs/consumer/credit/cre11.shtm to learn more about this.

- S

[Chu Mai Huang]

Well that's somewhat helpful, thank you. But how about some Australian version or references? Specific to our banks, who are known to conceal fees and conditions.

[Advance]

There has never been any sign on the bowser at Canberra related to a credit card 'hold' of $1000 (or any other amount), and
The credit card function is advertised on the pump as American Express, Visa or Mastercard.............
The American Express option has never worked and the Visa/MC option works spasmodically at best.
Yes, those with an AeroRefuellers card can usually get the pump to work OK.
Not ideal but you do not have a choice!!!

[mnehpets]

But how about some Australian version or references? Specific to our banks, who are known to conceal fees and conditions.

I've seen very little online about it locally, but as far as I know, the funds hold process works in the same way as in the US - it's a "feature" of the credit card networks. commbank has a short paragraph here:

What is an outstanding authorisation on my Credit Card? (http://support.commbank.com.au/app/answers/detail/a_id/63/~/what-is-an-outstanding-authorisation-on-my-credit-card)

- S

[Chu Mai Huang]

"An outstanding authorisation is when the estimated value of a purchase (eg car rental) is being held for a period of several days to allow the merchant to process the transaction."

Hmmmm..... as soon as we hang up the nozzle, the full amount of the transaction is known, so this sort of crap should not be happening.:sad:

[bentleg]

When I last refuelled at Canberra a few years ago there was a little surprise when you got your Aerorefueller account. An extra $5.50 charge added by Canberra airport for their trouble - and no sign on the bowser about that. Does this still happen?

[Ultralights]

every credit card bowser i have used has asked for a pre approved amount first, this is whats held by the bank, not $1000.. as soon as the pump hit the pre approved amount, it stops. though i have only used bowsers at wollonong, bathurst, dubbo, narromine, temora, walgett, brewarrina, bourke, moruya, ballina, nerranderra. all asked for a pre approval amount. hence, go back to my planning comment earlier.

[FRQ Charlie Bravo]

What follows is not a serious complaint, just an uber-picky note::E

every credit card bowser i have used has asked for a pre approved amount first, this is whats held by the bank, not $1000.. as soon as the pump hit the pre approved amount, it stops.

A note for those trying to balance tanks (especially with no easy way of doing it in flight i.e. light piston twin pilots who don't want to cross-feed unnecessarily):

Keeping the numbers easy, say you land with 100 litres and want to depart with 300. Tanks are equal at 50 per side. You want to add 100 per side so you calculate that at $2.00 per litre you tell the carnet bowser to authorise $400. You fill the first tank to the exact amount then proceed to the second only to find that it cuts you off about $20 early. Doh! You now don't have equal tanks and you may not have enough if you'd planned for min fuel.

Solution, authorise an extra $20 over what you need and anticipate an early cut-off when finishing with the first tank.

Not a complaint, just a note of caution primarily for those who are picky like me about aiming for balanced L and R tanks and secondly for those who work with small margins (max payload, min fuel).

Ciao,

FRQ CB

[davebowyer]

Since my earlier post, I've got the situation resolved and I have to say that Aero Refuellers, once fully aware of my predicament, were extremely proactive and supportive in getting things fixed :D. But it took 48 hours and many phone calls from me, both to Aero Refuellers and to my bank.

After a phone call from Andrew Heath (owner/operator of Aero Refuellers), I then had excellent support from Angela in their accounts department. Apparently their normal experience after a fuel purchase like this is that the $1000 charge sits on the customer's card for 24 hours - sometimes only "same day" apparently - and then disappears to be replaced by the actual charge for the fuel.

But not in my case, and nearly 48 hours later it was still on my Visa card (which is a debit card by the way so it actually reduced my usable cash balance below zero :mad:).

So Angela had to arrange a fax to my bank to authorise removal of the $1000 charge, which took several phone calls and 2 faxes to put right. In the end I gave my card details to Angela over the phone so that they could actually bill me for the fuel :ugh:.

I've sinced notified the manager at my flying club, who tells me (not surprisingly) that this is a known issue for GA pilots. I'm not sure whether my club as Aero Refuellers cards or not, though.

Aero Refuellers' feedback to me is that they know this is an issue for customers. Apparently the $1000 "security" card authorisation was even higher previously, before Aero Refuellers was able to get the bank to reduce it to $1000. Aero Refuellers' view seems to be that this is the only means they have to make fuel available at self-service bowsers for credit card purchases (as opposed to fuel cards etc.)

I have some sympathy with their problem, but the $1000 charge still was listed as "Aero Refuellers Albury" on my bank statement. So as far as I'm concerned, even it it's the bank's requirements, it's still Aero Refuellers' name that appears on my statement. And that makes it their problem, not just mine. (To be strictly fair, as I mentioned earlier, Aero Refuellers were very helpful in getting me sorted out).

I just can't get my head around why this has to be such a difficult issue, however. Surely it can't be that hard to at least allow credit card customers to nominate a "maximum" amount before the fuel starts flowing?

[ForkTailedDrKiller]

Surely it can't be that hard to at least allow credit card customers to nominate a "maximum" amount before the fuel starts flowing?

I believe this to be the case at other Shell credit card bowsers!

Dr :8

[bentleg]

At the many points serviced by Aerorefuellers it is simplest to use their card and pay their invoice at the end of the month.