Cannabis and Flying

[High Flying Pilot]

I’m looking for some serious answers to some serious questions. This is NOT a wind up.

I have recently obtained my UK ATPL, have substantial flying experience outside of the UK, and am currently looking for a flight deck position here. I also smoke the funny stuff on occasion, which in no way affects my flying. I have a Class 1 medical renewal coming up soon.

My questions are:

1. Do they test for cannabis at the Class 1 renewal? Do they even ask for a urine sample?

2. Do airlines in the UK perform drug tests prior to or during employment?

3. How strict are they in the UK regarding these matters?

4. How long would it take for traces of cannabis to disappear sufficiently to pass a subsequent drug test?

If you would prefer to answer my questions via email please feel free to do so.

Thanks.

[inverted flatspin]

You have a choice to make. Either flying or smoking the funny stuff. you can do one or the other but not both. I am not sure if random drug testing is conducted by European Airlines but here in the US most of them do. I was at a party once upon a time where there were a lot of pilots from Delta airlines, someone who was not a pilot lit up one of those funny cigarettes and to a man all five of the pilots ran out of the room and promptly left the party. When I spoke to one of them a few days later he explained that they were worried about second hand smoke and the possibility of a positive test result ruining a career. None of them wanted anything to do with anything like cannabis.

How do you know it dose'nt affect your flying? From observing cannabis smokers over the years it really has an affect on their daily lives. Mental capacity diminishes over time and they become subject to bouts of paranoia.

The best advice you will get is to give the stupid stuff up. If you don't you will eventually get caught and then it is treated very seriously.

[fryingeggs]

better yet, why dont u give up flying and stick to smoking, we dont need any "smokers" up there.
sorry to be so blunt.

fe

[ACARS]

Whilst cannabis is banned in the UK, then you no chance if you are caught. Is it worth ruining a career of something like this?

I've done it and enjoyed it (I ain't in the aviation industry)........but it's not worth the risk IMHO. :mad: :mad:

[actionman]

Serious reply to a serious question.

The jury's out on whether or not cannabis can permanently harm you but the following is what's known at the moment:

1.If you do have to provide a urine sample, drinking about 50 pints of water beforehand will dilute the products to a point where they may not be chemically detected...although you'll spend ages in the little boys/girls room.

2.I don't know if this is used in aviation yet, but your hair will contains a history of your smoking amongst other things. Your hair grows about 1 cm a month and analysis of a single hair can not only reveal what you've been smoking but also things such as what you had for breakfast,dinner, how much you drank etc over the last few weeks.

3.Passive smoking (with regard to cannabis), ie why the Delta guys ran out of the party, is a bit of a misnomer. In order to ingest sufficient cannabis exhalant from someones else's smoking you would have to be in a telephone box with them for about 3 days for it to register on a test.

4.However...please give it up because the idea of a smoker flying the right hand seat of an aircraft I'm in doesn't thrill me.

Whoa..heavy stuff but, as I said, serious points for a serious question.

[actionman]

...before anyone thinks it...I am not a smoker, ex-smoker, or 'legalise cannabis' campaigner as the above is freely available information that anyone in medicine, aviation medicine, drug detection will tell you.

[Oleo]

I am very surprised that you could risk everything you have worked for to get high now and then.

I agree with the others please don't fly aeroplanes, cause I don't want fly with you. Nothing personal.

Regarding the long term effects of dope, there is some evidence that it can trigger the onset of schizophrenia, most likely in people who are predisposed to it.

Any "whiff" of this to your employer or the CAA, even secondhand, would have you out on the street so fast you wouldn't know what hit you.

Do yourself, and everyone else, a favour. Examine your priorities in life and make a decision: dope or flying. That way you can avoid the paranoid feeling of wondering when you will be busted.

[bigseat]

Strength of active ingredients, the metabolites of which are usually detected in a urine test, vary enormously joint by joint so to speak. So one very weak joint may be harder to detect, than just the whiff of a strong (good?) joint. So, in earlier point above, Delta pilots acted correctly, as they could not determine the real 'strength' of drug present. As regards drinking lots of water to dilut urine, most good tox labs are pretty sussed when it comes to that kind of malarky, and often test the concentration of NORMAL body metabolites to check for dilution effect. You might cheat this way once, but could also get caught. Dont forget these labs deal with hardened drug addicts who add all kinds of chemicals to urine samples given half a chance. Final bad new is, the metabolites may stay present in the urine for four weeks or more. It takes a lot of time to 'washout'. As the T-shirts say: 'why drink and drive, when you can smoke dope and fly!

[mach78]

I think you're crazy if you continue to smoke it.
I understand ,to put it simply,it "rots your brain".It is detectable long after your last ingestion.
Is it worth the risk to carry on with it?

[High Flying Pilot]

Thank you all very much for your replies.

I do understand that I am running a rather sizeable risk. And am seriously considering giving it up. I do only use it occasionally, but it's still an issue that concerns me for obvious reasons.

When I was flying commercially in the States I was subjected to numerous random drug tests. They are VERY strict about it there, so I didn't touch the stuff.

My question to you still is:

Do the CAA test for traces of cannabis during the Class 1 medical renewal?

And/Or:

Do the airlines in the UK test for it prior to or during flight deck employment?

Thanks again for your serious responses.

[FatFlyer]

The only thing they test for in the urine is sugar for diabetes, though after reading this, it might give them ideas.

I have heard that cannabis can be detected up to 3 months after ingestion so be careful.

There were teats done in a simulator a few years ago which showed that the morning after smoking one joint, the pilot's performance was significantly affected.

Whether your's is or not is not relevant as any airline would not tolerate it. Imagine the headlines in the Sun "BA Pilots Stoned" and the trouble it would cause their business.

I don't know if airlines test for it, it is not routinely tested for at class one initial or renewals.BA used to chaeck for the amount of alcohol consumed. Train drivers in the UK are regularly tested for cannabis. Because of the professional status pilots hold, it has not yet been thought of as a problem in the UK

Although it may be a fairly harmless substance, it would, I am sure, lead to instant dismissal.

[inverted flatspin]

A Competitor at the last winter Olympics was stripped of his medal for cannabis use. It was later reinstated on appeal when he was able to show that the positive test was caused by second hand smoke.

Was it really second hand smoke, I don't know he may have been lying but I know for sure that I will not be taking that chance.

[TimC]

They test for how much alcohol you drink? That's me scuppered then :).

I have a friend who got through to RAF Cranwell on selection for Navigator. She went and told them she smokes dope tho. :)

[Wig Wag]

You are unsuitable to hold a proffessional licence if you use illegal narcotics. Simple as that.

Self discipline as an airline pilot is paramount. That means putting other folks interests first.

Do not think in terms of being undetected. Seek medical help now and pursue a career away from aviation. Please.

[This message has been edited by Wig Wag (edited 23 September 2000).]

[High Flying Pilot]

Thanks for all of your replies.

Wigwag and other like-minded aviators, you can forget about me giving up my career. Giving up the wacky ‘backy is another matter, but chucking away a career I have invested several tens of thousands of pounds in is out of the question.

I am currently awaiting my ground school course to commence with a large jet carrier in the UK, and am earning my living outside of aviation. I’m kicking back after several years of intense commercial flying outside of the UK and, of course, obtaining the feared UK ATPL. I can understand your concern if I were smoking up while I was employed as a pilot, but my current situation doesn’t dictate such concern.

Have any other UK pilots out there ever been tested for drugs either for a medical renewal or within their airline with the company quack?

[El Cid]

The renewal for a class 1 medical really only is a very standard "check up" of your health,nothing more.The urine test seems just to be for sugar and blood and it doesn't seem to me that the class 1 is designed as a test of ones personal morals,simply,it is a check of your current health status.I doubt,however,that airline medicals are as easy and I refuse to even sit near anyone indulging in a "trenchtown trumpet" coz it just aint worth it.
The two cannot mix,so you need to make your choice,for your own peace of mind,don't do it.....man.
Best wishes
El Cid

[Whirlybird*]

High Flying Pilot,

I've been following this thread with great interest. Out of sheer curiosity and in interest in my fellow PPRuNers, I have a few of questions for you:

1) Since very little research has actually been done on cannabis, how do you know FOR CERTAIN that it doesn't affect your flying?
2) Since it must be obvious to you now - and probably was before if you've been flying professionally - that the majority of aviation orientated people are very anti-drugs, why are you still smoking? It can hardly be a social thing, unless you don't mix socially with other pilots. A lone smoker? Why?
3) Since the risks - of losing a career you love, wasting all the money you've spent on training etc - are so HUGE, why haven't you given it up long ago (dope I mean, not flying), since I gather it's hardly a big part of your life?

For the record, I used to smoke dope in my misspent youth, but gave it up long ago. A lot of uninformed crap is talked about it by both sides. But the idea of an airline pilot who smokes scares me; that's probably illogical and an over-reaction, but maybe - just maybe - it's not. And I'm asking all this because I'm curious; I just don't understand your attitude.

[fryingeggs]

hi,

look,
if he has to ask whether CAA have testing methods which detect the stuff, if he still has nmisconceptions about it effecting performance and if he still has to think about giving it up this far into his flying, maybe he should be tested, found positive for its use then lose his pilot lic. indefinitely. who knows,it could save lives.
fe

[redsnail]

If the CAA are any thing Oz's CASA and your medical form has this question. Just tick "yes" to the question that asks "do you use or have you ever used illegal/illicit drugs?" Then you will know if they test you and what can happen to your licence.


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reddo
A Feral Animal.

[rob99]

Who paid for your 509 ?

[SOPS]

Sounds like a silly idea in the first place

[Capt. XXXX]

More so as to whether the CAA do random tests is the fact that anyone can gain a smple of your blood, even if you've had a road accident, you may well be sampled. I'm sure when word gets out that you are a pilot, keeping your private and professional lives apart may prove difficult. Not worth it.

[Wig Wag]

Many years ago I worked overseas on contract work. On a night flight to Europe from an African destination my Captain seemed more than usually tired and it was down to me to set the standard of operation. In a later conversation this guy made a quip about the use of cannabis. Apparently the drug was freely available in the town where we had nightstopped. I have often wondered whether this guy had smoked a joint on the two day layover. I hadn't socialised with the crew preferring the hotel to the nightclub they frequented.

Quite frankly the guy wasn't much use on that six hout flight and, at the time, I put it down to general fatigue and jet lag.
Years later I think it likely that he was under the influence of something. I wish I had done something about it. I.E. tipped off the management.

Drugs and flying do not go together. Someone not 100% in possession of their faculties cannot operate an airliner safely. What more can we say?

Irrespective of whether this invidual now uses drugs the sentiment of this thread is 'getting past the medical'. But, the medical is a safegaurd for our safety. Trying to fool the authorities over this issue shows a lamentable lack of integrity and this quality is sacrocanct in our profession.

[Lu Zuckerman]

There is somthing that is potentially more dangerous thaN smoking a joint and theN operating a flying machine. READ MY POST IN ESSENTIAL TREMOR WHICH IS LOCATED SEVERAL THREADS ABOVE.

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The Cat