Can a SID be flown VFR??

[DBEnterprises]

Hello all,

Please excuse my naivety however these are basic questions.

1. Can a SID be flown be a VFR aircraft or is it only limited to IFR aircraft? Example SID = ARMAD 4 departure from YPJT. For example can a VFR aircraft ask for and be assigned a SID?? References/sources please - AIP/Jepps etc...

2. Why would an IFR aircraft tracking via a VFR departure procedure wish to continue with a SID OCTA under VFR.

I raise these questions for my education associated with the transition of GAAP to Class D on June 3, 2010.

I am particularly interested in what IFR pilots are expecting, and indeed would prefer to fly, as part of these changes.

DBE
YPPH

[Awol57]

Why would a VFR aircraft operating with visual reference to the ground want to intercept an outbound track relative to an NDB rather than point at, and track direct to ARE? Same with the MANTL. Far more efficient to just point at Fremantle (of course going via Murdoch open space).

You could ask to track the SID on your departure. If you are VFR though you can expect us to confirm you want to depart via ARE (or FREM as the case may be). The other issue is that the SID is only from 24R/06L so you can't actually do it as a VFR on the ARMAD as you depart from 24L/06R when on the parrallels.

As to what impact the Class D bit will have, watch this space :E

Occasionally an IFR aircraft departing OCTA may ask to simulate the SID. Whilst we can't approve that, if the traffic allows it, it looks very similar to a standard departure. :oh: :cool:

[Ted D Bear]

The advantage of a SID is it has been designed to provide terrain clearance. So I can imagine flying a SID OCTA - for example, departing YSCB at night (after the tower has closed). Obviously, would need to fly a non-radar SID (as ATC can't give you vectors if you are OCTA).

I think the question has been raised in the context of the transition from GAAP to Class D. If I'm going to get a quicker departure by departing VFR (even though I'd otherwise be an IFR flight), can I do that and still ask for (and get) a clearance for a departure via the SID?

And, if so, when can I upgrade to IFR without causing a problem? When I first speak to departures (eg at YSBK, on passing 2,000FT)? Or before? Or will it be less of a hassle if I wait until I'm passing 2,500FT (in the YSBK example), because then there will be 1,000FT minimum separation with aircraft in the Class D CTR below?

All questions it would be good to have answers to before 3 June.

Ted

[43Inches]

I think this is the rule in question;


7. VFR DEPARTURE BY AN AIRCRAFT PLANNED IFR

7.1 The pilot of an IFR flight departing a Class D aerodrome may request

a VFR departure with the expectation of obtaining an IFR clearance en-route.

7.2 The pilot of an IFR flight conducting a VFR departure:
a. must comply with the VFR.

b. is responsible for separation with other aircraft within the Class D airspace.
c. must obtain ATC clearance prior to entering Class A or C airspace, and prior to reverting to IFR whilst operating within Class D or E airspace.
d. must notify ATC when reverting to IFR once in Class G airspace.



7.3 When an IFR aircraft conducts a VFR departure, ATC will provide
VFR services to the aircraft until the pilot:

a. requests and is granted an IFR clearance; or
b. after entering Class G airspace, notifies ATC that he or she is reverting to IFR.




I would say the answer to question 1. would be no as the reason you are not getting the IFR departure is due traffic in the area. This rule seems more likely to enable an IFR aircraft to depart when IFR channels are busy. Separation in class D is very restrictive for IFR aircraft, downgrade to VFR and traffic separation is visual based and much less restricted. Along the way if an opening in traffic permits you may then be offered clearance IFR.

If you are cleared via a SID you must then comply with it and that would involve entering IMC if encountered. It would get very complicated if an VFR aircraft flying a SID encountered unexpected IMC while still below the MSA. The controller can not release the aircraft from the SID until reaching the MSA/LSALT (or MVA if RADAR is available) unless climb can proceed in VMC to this height.

2. Why would an IFR aircraft tracking via a VFR departure procedure wish to continue with a SID OCTA under VFR.

I can not see how this is possible. All instrument procedures have a starting point and a rule for termination. Procedural SIDs start on the runway and terminate on reaching the enroute fix above the MSA/LSALT unless terminated by pilot/ATC. You can not depart via one method then pick up a SID half way through, this would compromise the safety of the procedure.

The advantage of a SID is it has been designed to provide terrain clearance. So I can imagine flying a SID OCTA - for example, departing YSCB at night (after the tower has closed). Obviously, would need to fly a non-radar SID (as ATC can't give you vectors if you are OCTA).

An IFR aircraft may do this OCTA;


43.2 A pilot in command of an IFR flight must establish flight on the departure track as soon as practicable after take‐off and within 5NM of the aerodrome, except that, at aerodromes which have published standard instrument departure procedures, an IFR aircraft may depart in accordance with those procedures. When established on the departure track, and clear of the circuit traffic, the pilot in command must report departure to ATC unless instructed otherwise.

[Ted D Bear]

Thanks, 43" - the new provision in AIP explains what you can do. My real query is how best to get it to work ...

Here's my example: taxying IFR at YSBK (Class D to 1,500FT, Class C overlying) in a Baron. The zone is VMC, and the tower hasn't restricted VFR operations and runways 11 in use, but the weather to the west is deteriorating and that's the way I'm headed.

Under GAAP, I'd report to SMC that I'm taxying IFR and in due course be issued with a clearance which includes a Bankstown 3 Departure, maintain 3,000 with an assigned heading 'left, 290' off runway 11C. After take-off, I'd probably enter Class C airspace about mid-downwind, I'd report approaching 2,000FT shortly thereafter and be handed off to SY DEP who'd give me a new heading or tell me to resume own navigation on reaching 3,000FT - with further climb in due course. Easy kapeasy ...

After transition to Class D, I'd report to SMC that I'm taxying IFR but - assuming I don't want to hold - I'd have to request a VFR Departure. If it is granted, then I'm obliged to operate VFR until either (1) I enter class G adjoining the CTR and I've notified Sydney Radar I'm reverting to IFR or (2) I obtain a clearance to enter class C (or a new clearance in D).

What I'm interested to know is - will it be possibleto issue an IFR aircraft on the ground a clearance for a VFR Departure which authorises climb into Class C? It is certainly possible to issue VFR aircraft such a clearance (although this would not be a SID, of course - or perhaps, after transition, these too will be impossible to come by if ATC must manage the combined C and D as one piece of airspace ???). Assuming such a clearance is possible for a VFR aircraft, why not an IFR aircraft which is prepared to operate VFR? And if it is possible, wouldn't it be easier to issue a SID with a requirement to operate VFR while in Class D or until reaching, say, 2,000FT (if that is required to ensure no IFR/VFR separation issues arise with a VFR aircraft in the Class D below)?

I know all of this is complicated - but, in the good ol' days, it was nice to get a clearance on the ground which you knew would get you safely to the MVA from where ATC would vector you on your way in Class C :ok:. Or will it all just be too hard after 3 June :confused:

Ted

[Captain Kellogs]

We use to depart under IFR but make a visual departure out of BK, once clear of the zone you would call up SY Radar I think it was in those days, who had you on radar as you were assigned a code out of BK and then request your airways clearance then.

Or you can always depart IFR OCTA under the steps of CTA when heading out of BK. then if the weather is bad to the west you are already IFR when you get to it.

[43Inches]

The new rules just supercede the current GAAP rule that an IFR aircraft departing the zone in VMC must operate VFR until encountering IMC or leaving the zone; currently AIP ENR 1.1-24.5 until June 3rd. However this rule allowed that the aircraft automatically proceded IFR as soon as it encounters IMC.

In the Bankstown or Jandakot example the aircraft would appear on Radar shortly after getting airborne. Until such a time as they are identified it can be very hard to have other IFR aircraft in the vicinity unless departing in completely opposite directions.

A VFR departure will enable the aircraft to get airborne with VFR separation standards. The tower will possibly then issue a clearance or transfer the aircraft to the radar based control for identification and IFR clearance, or possibly clear the aircraft IFR once visually passed inbound IFR traffic. The pilot must however initiate the clearance request or when proceding OCTA notify you are returning to IFR.

It would be interesting to hear what the ATC guys are being told about this procedure and what restrictions they have.

[Ted D Bear]

It would be interesting to hear what the ATC guys are being told about this procedure and what restrictions they have.


Indeed! Can it be done, and will they do it? Neither AIP nor the purple book gives enough info on the practicalities, IMHO

[Ted D Bear]

If I'm going to get a quicker departure by departing VFR (even though I'd otherwise be an IFR flight), can I do that and still ask for (and get) a clearance for a departure via the SID?



It seems the answer to this question is "no". The elearning tutorial on transition to Class D that has just gone up on the CASA website says you can only ask for a VFR departure if you intend to proceed into adjoining Class G airspace. :*

Ted