FAA Cross Country time

[Jwscud]

I'm looking at sorting out my log of FAA Cross Country time - I understand the definition from 14 CFR Part 61 is a flight landing at an airfield more than 50NM in a straight line away.

This is rather frustrating as I'm getting my ruler and map out and finding a lot of my flights are ~45-48 NM in a straight line. Most of my flying has been in and around the London TMA and the actual distances are in the order of 70NM to the various places I've been. I take it I'm just going to have to write off a large number of hours and bin the idea of doing an FAA IR on the way, or are the FAA slightly more flexible in how they count their miles?

[welliewanger]

I have no idea, but you might want to double check if it's 50 nautical miles they require or statute miles. That might make the difference you need.

[UncleNobby]

Yes it's 50 NM - if you are coming in around 48/49NM maybe you need to be a bit more generous with your starting and ending points on the sectional !!(i.e. start and finish at the furthest points - on an FAA sectional at least an airport can take up 1NM)

[Jwscud]

That's what I thought. I was wondering if they got the ruler out on the UK chart to check your numbers out? They'd probably be a bit suspicious anyway if I were declaring flights that were just 50NM anyway!

It's just frustrating that flights that were along the lines of 70-80NM as flown without any unnecessary dog-legs don't count as cross country despite being probably far better value than 50NM in a straight line between airfields!

[punk666]

I wouldnt worry about it, if you did the flying in the UK they wouldnt have a clue where any of the places you have flown to unless its an FAA school in the UK!

If the examiner wants to be an arse about it they might use google maps (I have personally witnessed this).

[B2N2]

Correct, you have been looking at Part 61.
But you can also look at Part 141 training where the 50 hrs of XC PIC is NOT required.
Unless you are a US citizen you will need a visa for flight training anyway.
Only 141 schools have the capacity to issue the I-20, the visa application form.
So only Part 141 certified schools can train foreign nationals.
So your problem is pretty much solved, enroll with a Part 141 school and do your IR Part 141.
And yes, you can do your IR 141 without having done your PPL 141.
If the examiner wants to be an arse
If you want to sign a federal document as being true and correct (while it isn't) by all means go ahead.
Check 14 CFR Part 61.59 (b) ; that is basis for supsension or revocation

[Jwscud]

I thought that Part 61 schools could as well, but one still has to get TSA clearance separately?

I'm also loth to take a punt on a part 141 school I have no knowledge of as I've already visited the school I was thinking of going to for the IR. Going to the USA to check a place out is not something I have the time or cash for unfortunately!

[B2N2]

I thought that Part 61 schools could as well
Absolutely not, that is a common misconception which is perpetuated by these schools themselves. Part 61 schools do not meet the record keeping requirements as mandated by the Department of Homeland Security.
They cannot issue the I-20 which is required to apply for the M-1 visa which is required for PPL IFR and CPL training.
Do not fall for this trap.
What did you intend to tell the Immigration official as far as the purpose of your visit? Recreational flying? That would be a lie and make you eligible for deportation.

[Jwscud]

I have to be honest I haven't done too much research into the minutiae yet as I wouldn't be actually going over until end of this year/early next year. I certainly wouldn't fancy ending up on the wrong side of US officialdom!

Are there any hours minima at all for the SE IR at a part 141 school? My navigation of CFR isn't brilliant but all I can see in the prerequisite area is an FAA PPL. Do different schools have different minima?

[UncleNobby]

You need to have done the PPL part 141 also.

[selfin]

No need to have acquired the private via a 141 programme to undertake a 141 IR.

Furthermore for I-20 eligibility purposes candidates must sign up for a 141 course of training as B2N2 points out, however a practical test for a 61 IR can be undertaken once the requirements under 61.65 are met - cost effective only if a foreign ICAO IR (and some critical proportion of the cross-country flight time) is held.

[B2N2]

Part 141 IR training requires at least 35 hrs of Instrument flight time which will translate to about 40-45 hrs of airplane time and at least 35 hrs of formal ground school.
As stated earlier no need to have done the PPL under 141.
And yes you could enroll under Part 141 take part of the training and switch to part 61. Useless in your case though since Part 61 requires the 50 hrs XC which is the hang-up in your case.

The school may require that you do a couple of flights prior to starting on the IR to make sure you have the basic skills to start the IR.
You may need some transition time to a different make and model of airplane and it is never a bad idea to take a couple of hours to get familiar with the local area, local procedures and local ATC.

No need to fear 141 or avoid it.
Remember it is a school certification and not a student certification.
At least you will know your instructor uses a FAA approved syllabus, they are supervised by senior check instructors and a Chief Flight Instructor and stage checks make sure they are doing their job the way they are supposed to. The required ground school is not a deal breaker either since I have never met anybody capable of teaching themselves Instrument flying from a book.

[B2N2]

Jwscud, in case you would like to start studying for the FAA IR, all training materials are available online for free from the FAA website:


Instrument Flying Handbook (http://www.faa.gov/library/manuals/aviation/instrument_flying_handbook/)


Instrument Procedures Handbook (IPH) (http://www.faa.gov/library/manuals/aviation/instrument_procedures_handbook/)


http://www.faa.gov/library/manuals/aviation/media/FAA-H-8083-6.pdf


http://www.faa.gov/library/manuals/aviation/media/FAA-H-8083-2.pdf


Pilot's Handbook of Aeronautical Knowledge (http://www.faa.gov/library/manuals/aviation/pilot_handbook/)

All are in PDF format, if you prefer paper books, they can all be ordered through online stores like Sporty's.
If you have any questions, let us know.
Despite the generally cranky nature of this board we are still here to help.:}

[Jwscud]

B2N2 - thank you for the excellent advice and help. Thanks to work commitments and doing the ATPLs in the UK I'm unlikely to be heading out before the new year. I'll have a look at the stuff that you posted but apart from the legal requirements in the FARs and figuring out american geography, how much is there in the syllabus that is unlikely to be covered by the JAA ATPL exams?

[SeattlePilot]

There is a big misconception about the definition of cross country time. If you take off from an airport A and land inairport B 20 miles away, that IS a cross country time. However ,this x-c time is not suitable to use to qualify you for a cross country requirement defined to meet the requirements of a license or rating.

[B2N2]

syllabus that is unlikely to be covered by the JAA ATPL exams

Somewhat of a difficult question.
The European ATPL exams cover the academic training requirements for the European IR, not for the FAA IR.
I've had that discussion before.
You will still be required to do the ground training required for the FAA IR regardless.
Having completed the ATPL exams will certainly help but not substitute.

There is a big misconception about the definition of cross country time. If you take off from an airport A and land inairport B 20 miles away, that IS a cross country time. However ,this x-c time is not suitable to use to qualify you for a cross country requirement defined to meet the requirements of a license or rating.

Correct SP and for the FAA ATP the XC flight does not have to include a landing. PPL, IR and CPL/ATP all require a minimum distance of 50 NM.

[Jwscud]

I have a quick query about the FAA CPL QXC, and thought rather than start a new thread I'd ask here. FAR 61.129 states in the requirements:

4) 10 hours of solo flight in a single-engine airplane on the areas of operation listed in Sec. 61.127(b)(1) of this part, which includes at least--
(i) One cross-country flight of not less than 300 nautical miles total distance, with landings at a minimum of three points, one of which is a straight-line distance of at least 250 nautical miles from the original departure point.

What isn't clear to me is whether this QXC has to be done during the CPL course or whether I can do it on my own as is done under the JAA rules?:confused:

[Jwscud]

Thanks a lot - I'm going to do my CPL Part 61 so that sorts everything out. I hope you some day get the beers you deserve for answering our damn fool questions :ok:

You may hear my dulcet tones on your frequency in the autumn...

[AutothrustBlue]

The cross country requirements laid down in FAR 61.129 are typically done before commencing a Part 61 Commercial. Notice that it refers to "ONE" flight. I therefore interpret that to mean one continuous flight with only the intermediate landings and no overnight stop. It makes no mention to not being able to carry passengers etc.
Not to unnecessarily cherry-pick your statement here, but the current 14 CFR 61.129 language regarding Commercial (airplane, single-engine land) reads:

(4) Ten hours of solo flight time in a single engine airplane or 10 hours of flight time performing the duties of pilot in command in a single engine airplane with an authorized instructor on board (either of which may be credited towards the flight time requirement under paragraph (a)(2) of this section), on the areas of operation listed under §61.127(b)(1) that include—
(i) One cross-country flight of not less than 300 nautical miles total distance...

Any old cross country time won't do for that. It MUST be performed either solo (meaning, no passengers), or with an authorized instructor on board. (This language is similar to that of the commercial MEL requirements now - the amendment adding "authorized instructor" was effective October, 2009.)

[AutothrustBlue]

Correct. I had a senior moment...!
It happens! :ok:

[MarkerInbound]

Not to be pedantic (well, ok maybe) but the reg says a minimum of three landings, you could do more as long as one is the the required 250 miles away. Also, you're going to have to land and very few trainers have the range to to go 500 miles without refueling so I'd say at least one landing won't be a touch and go. At that point the Feds will care less if you're on the ground 30 minutes or 30 hours.

[Jwscud]

I think the pilot would probably require refueling and a break for certain personal requirements on the way too :}

[DiamondC]

So if I understand correctly, the requirements for a flight to be "cross country" for experience requirements eg IR are:
- FAA (4 CFR Part 61): a flight landing at an airfield more than 50NM in a straight line away
- JAA/CAA (LASORS): a single planned exercise including landings at two intermediate aerodromes and completed during the course of a single day

For a flight to meet requirements for both, it would need to have two intermediate stops and only the flights 50+ NM would count for FAA.

To make logging the flight simpler, the best option would be A to B (50+ NM), B to C (50+ NM), C to A (50+ NM). The total flight time would then count for both JAA/CAA and FAA.

And to meet the PIC requirements, probably I should be the only one in the aircraft.

Correct?