NCO Pilots

[4Greens]

In these days of financial stringency is there a role for the return of NCO pilots? In my youth I had an NCO instructor and he was great, also was in the Battle of Britain in his youth. When I got my wings I had to entertain him off base as he wasn't allowed in the Officers mess.

Financially, less pay same job.

[163627]

Very good positive article on this very subject in the latest issue of Soldier; well worth a read.

Soldier - Magazine of the British army (http://www.soldiermagazine.co.uk/)

[Door Slider]

How long have women been fighting for equal pay for doing the same job?

[5 Forward 6 Back]

Less pay, same job? Depends on how you handle promotions and starting pay, I would have thought.

A newly-qualified NCA Sgt earns £32 756, according to the latest AFPRB report. A newly-qualified A/Plt Off earns £24 615. Even looking along the typical career path, the officer isn't likely to get more than about £10k per annum more than his NCO colleague. That saves what, £3M a year or so?

I think the savings would be negligible looking along a typical career path; especially as nowadays, no-one is going to accept "less pay same job!"

[david parry]

http://www.fleetairarmarchive.net/RollofHonour/NCO/Rating_pilots1939.jpg Rating Pilots donning flying kit by swordfish with folded wings -Here are seen two ratings qualified or qualifying as air pilots donning their flying kit. Since the Admiralty took over complete control of the Fleet Air Arm, naval ratings have been eligible to qualify as air pilots. They are selected mainly from the seaman, signal and telegraphist branches of the Service, and must be between the ages of 21 and 24. They are given a thorough training ashore for a year, followed by eight weeks in a training aircraft carrier, during which time able seamen are rated as acting leading seamen. As soon as the full period of training has been successfully completed, they are advanced to the rating of petty officer.

[ReturnOfX]

I suspect it has nothing to do with capitation and more to do with the relationship between the following:

- Qualities required to flying modern combat air, strat lift and RW have significant overlap with those required to be an officer (I am not saying they are exclusive or that these flying tasks could not been done by NCA - just that there is commonality).

- With a limited number of flying opportunities, the RAF has no problem recruiting officer aircrew (we may well have problems training aircrew and retaining them, but not getting them through the door).

- Like it or not, RAF top-end career structure drives the configuration of the lower-level officer establishment, ie. you need x number of flt lts to get y number of sqn ldrs to ultimately get z 4*s. Since we remain predicated to the upper echelons being aircrew (separate argument) and with limited cockpits, the establishment cannot afford to give opportunities away to NCA.

- This argument is compounded when you consider how many officer aircrew we need to populate the overall Service task, not just flying aircraft around. Which ties in to the need to circulate aircrew (greatly more so with officers than NCA) through flying related staff appointments.

[teeteringhead]

"Through life" costs have to be considered too - generally speaking occifers stay in longer (about 5 years on average) which also skews the figures concerning replacement costs....

[Fareastdriver]

I wish I could have been an NCO pilot when I joined. I would have been able to afford E type Jaguars etc, just like my crewmen.

[Chugalug2]

Like 4Greens I was trained by an NCA, a Master Pilot. Excellent chap. There were many more of his ilk in those far off days. No reason IMHO why they shouldn't return. As for the need of z aircrew 4*s, some of those produced these days the RAF could perhaps well do without. Perhaps x engineer 4*s would be a better requirement. I only mention that in view of the allegations that a fair formation/flock/wing of the z's (what is a polite collective term?) were complicit in the deliberate flouting of UK Military Airworthiness Regulations leading to unairworthy aircraft being in RAF service, leading in turn to some 62 deaths. Thread hijack? What's that then?

[Neptunus Rex]

Nobody has yet mentioned the most important point. If the RAF had SNCO pilots and navigators, who would do all the 'Secondary Duties?'

[Molemot]

Back when young Molemot was a sprog, he went through Officer training with several NCO, Sergeant Pilot....er....pilots! Since then he has encountered some very senior and competent NCO pilots from the Army Air Corps. During training he was ..exposed?.. to some Polish NCO pilots left over from the Last Major Unpleasantness. Great chaps, all of them!
Let us not forget that the majority of Bomber Command aircrews in WW2 were captained by non commissioned aircrew......

[downsizer]

Wow, a post about airworthiness. What a pleasant departure on a tangent.:8

[StopStart]

Indeed, a sterling effort. NCO Pilots to Airworthiness in 8 replies.

http://www.funnyforumpics.com/forums/Thread-Hijack/1/Hijack-In_progress.jpg (http://www.funnyforumpics.com)

[Trim Stab]

Since then he has encountered some very senior and competent NCO pilots from the Army Air Corps.


AAC is (was?) a bit different from RAF and FAA.

Until the advent of the Apache, AAC assets were, in the Army battlespace thinking, not much more than Land Rovers with a fan on top (or a couple of planks on the side).


The Apache is obviously a far more advanced weapon system, more akin to an RAF or FAA aircraft, and may have changed that way of thinking. Moreover, some in the Army regard the RAF's relative retreat from investment in the CAS role in favour of Air Defence as an opportunity. It will be interesting to see if, as Apache assumes an increasingly important role, if the AAC aligns itself with RAF and FAA policy.

[Bertie Thruster]

I once knew an Army Sgt pilot and an RAF SAR Sqn Cdr. There wasn't much difference!

[Wander00]

I recall a former para Sgt pilot who ended up an RAF Wg Cdr (and squadron OC)

[What Limits]

Hey Bertie, I know him too and there was one difference - the length of mustache!

[Gnd]

The Apache is obviously a far more advanced weapon system, more akin to an RAF or FAA aircraft,What akin FAA aircraft - the mighty Mk3 or 8?? Where is advanced in this picture???????:ugh:

[4Greens]

I'm confused about the post that an Apache is more advanced. This does not gel with the relative skills of NCO pilots and Officer pilots, or is it a thread drift?

[althenick]

I'm sorry, - but I dont understand the difference here. Am I to assume that Officer pilots are more intelligent than NCO pilots? Ok - if so - how do we reach this conclusion? Having been in the RN on P/T contract and worked for the MoD for several years (i'm cured of this now!) I can tell you this. All of the Pilots I have met (RAF and RN - no AAC unfortunately) aint the sharpest tools in the box, in fact i'd say most of them were downright thick (and full of ****. But they were obviously really enthusiastic about what they did - Especially the wafoos ) however the Austrailian Shiraz is making me drift a little. So here is the question I want to ask...

If Officer and NCO/SR pilots were given the same training then which would be more viable and why? Assuming that both were paid (a) comensurate with their rank and (b) Given sufficient incentive to go for a full career.

Sorry if I've wondered and talked utter garbage but this is rather good bootle of wine :ok: No disrepect intended :E

[Trojan1981]

I don't know about more advanced machinery making any difference and I don't think that the duties performed by a pilot are necessarily close to those required of an officer, but in Australia there is a sort of comprimise.

It's called SSO (Specialist Service Officer) Pilot. Basicly spec aircrew. Rank limit is Captain and you are only ever employed as a pilot. This came about because most potential pilots don't want to stuff around for 18 months at RMC when all they want to do is fly. The training involves 8 weeks mil skills/KFS training at RMC Duntroon then off to pilot training.
After wings you are promoted to Lt and serve a six year retur of service.
Better still, you don't have to do all of the other officer command bollocks unless you request a transfer to G(General)SO and undertake further training.

This was introduced to address a pilot shortage in AAvn. It still hasn't worked:rolleyes:.

[longer ron]

Qualifications (A level,Degree etc ) do not = intelligence !
Some of the top Apache pilots a few years ago were W.O /S Sgt.
Being an Officer does not automatically make one intelligent,I have met some dim people over the years - some were commissioned/some were non comm !!!
Historically some of the Top Brass started out as SGT pilots...there may be many reasons for not having NCA pilots but I doubt lack of intelligence is one of them !

[Winch-control]

same as today/ all the snco's etc same, but same as today the orriffices take the credit..those that are know...

[clunckdriver]

I was one of the grads in the RCAF when it was decided to make all pilots officers, unlike prevoius courses which were split between NCOs and comisioned pilots, at the time I felt it was a mistake {I was about as mature as most eighteen year olds at the time, if you get my drift} we as a group found ourselves way over our heads at times when it came to dealing with many situations we were placed in. If one looks at the history of NCO pilots in the RCAF many rose to very high rank and made better, more rounded leaders due in part to their NCO backgrounds.{Group Capt Lane, rose from sergent pilot to Group Captain in four years!} It is strange to see an officer pilot flying a modern version of a Jeep,{AKA Bell Jet Ranger} and a private in command of a tank costing about four times as much to the taxpayer and having a fighting role, also our pilots now come in large part from one source, Royal Military College, a very small gene pool indeed, its begining to show that a return to the policy of the past{one third RMC, one third direct entry, one third re mustered ground crew} would do much to improve our Air Force pilot quality.but as long as RMC grads make up most of the senior ranks it aint gonna happen! My first flight was in an Anson flown by a Polish sergent pilot, only later did I find out one is not meant to loop an Anson!

[DC10RealMan]

I once knew a chap who joined the Army as a private soldier and later became a helicopter NCO pilot and had no formal educational qualifications. He is now a Boeing 747 senior training captain.

[pasir]

In the early days of WW2 not all rank and file RAF aircrew enjoyed the privilege of 3 stripes. I seem to remember reading somewhere that this was later made obligatory for ordinary aircrew and would mean they should no longer be at the beck and call of barrack room Sergeants who were otherwise liable to have airmen put on normal duties or fatigues and the likes regardless that only a few hours earlier they may have spent the night over enemy territory or on a similar active service and had had but
an hour or two's sleep.

[chopper2004]

Not sure if this is relevant but came across this in the US Navy website regarding chief warrant officer aviator program where the graduates can fly P-3/E-6/SH/MH-60

Navy Establishes Trial Warrant Officer-to-Pilot Program (http://www.navy.mil/search/display.asp?story_id=22072)

Aviators Receive Wings of Gold at Corpus Christi (http://www.navy.mil/search/display.asp?story_id=39482)

Again it isn't technically a commissioned officer?

[Pontius Navigator]

, but in Australia there is a sort of comprimise.

It's called SSO (Specialist Service Officer) Pilot. Basicly spec aircrew. Rank limit is Captain and you are only ever employed as a pilot.

Indeed the RAF had the same system 50 years or more ago. These were Direct Commissions where aircrew were recruited and commissioned simply to be aircrew. They were still officers and still had secondary duties but career appointments were only given to Cranwell officers.

The Cranwell officer, who was on the General List, could expect service to age 55 promotion to the highest ranks. There were however a few Cranwell Flt Lt around who had managed to put up a black or otherwise miss the boat.

The scheme was changed to Direct Entry Commission and the upper service period was reduced to age 38 or 16 years service. Short service commissions were available for 5, 8 and 12 years although for the 8/12 they were actually options with the 38/16 as the upper limit. The DEC A had no options and these options were waived for the princely sum of £16. These were Supplementary List commissions and promotion was usually limited to flt lt and there were some fg off who remained at that rank as they didn't pass the promotion exams.

Around 1969, with the downsizing of the RAF, it was realised that 'some' good officers on the Supplementary List were being lost and the career pool was shrinking. The lists were then merged and the Spec Aircrew specialisation was introduced for those professional aircrew that would not expect promotion beyond sqn ldr.

[Spearmint-R33]

In the early days of WW2 not all rank and file RAF aircrew enjoyed the privilege of 3 stripes. I seem to remember reading somewhere that this was later made obligatory for ordinary aircrew and would mean they should no longer be at the beck and call of barrack room Sergeants who were otherwise liable to have airmen put on normal duties or fatigues and the likes regardless that only a few hours earlier they may have spent the night over enemy territory or on a similar active service and had had but
an hour or two's sleep.

I'm sure that I have read somewhere that the minimum rank of SNCO for NCA came about during WW2 due to the fact that on being shot down or finding themselves behind enemy lines for whatever reason and once captured thus becoming POW's they wouldn't be expected to do any of the less tangible jobs?

[x213a]

Forgive by boneness but..isn't weapon capability a factor?

[PTC REMF]

Forgive by boneness but..isn't weapon capability a factor?


Why? Please elaborate.

[taxydual]

I believe the reasoning that Captains of Aircraft (from the late '50's) were only to be Commissioned Officers was because they may be called upon to drop 'a bucket of golden sunshine'.

[Fareastdriver]

These were Supplementary List commissions and promotion was usually limited to flt lt

The Supplementary List tie had a ladder with just two rungs at the bottom.

I was the last of the Direct Commision entries. When I was signed on a DC(B) by the Air Attache in Salisbury, Southern Rhodesia, they hadn't been told that the DEC sheme had replaced it. I was legalised some two years later.

[Pontius Navigator]

I'm sure that I have read somewhere that the minimum rank of SNCO for NCA came about during WW2 due to the fact that on being shot down or finding themselves behind enemy lines for whatever reason and once captured thus becoming POW's they wouldn't be expected to do any of the less tangible jobs?

True.

Officers could volunteer to work. SNCOs were required to work as supervisors. Rank and file were obliged to work. The work required was of course of a non-defence related work.

The film, The Password is Courage, illustrated this well.