Pay raise is on the portal now [Archive]

BigGeordie

6th May 2010, 12:24

As somebody else has pointed out to me, the lack of a step means that an F/O who has been here for 2 years is now on exactly the same salary as somebody who joins today.

I suppose that is one way to "share the pain" but it isn't much of a reward for 2 years of erroded conditions and hard work.

I suspect this is designed to look good during recruitment interviews where they can point to the "huge" 6% payrise awarded this year while glossing over some of the background.

waldorfin

6th May 2010, 12:57

Classic!!!!!!!

fliion

6th May 2010, 13:02

As someone who considers himself balanced - this is a severe disappointment.

Working 20% extra, sacrificing valuable family time, losing the annual leave destination by having to use an EK destination in the US, getting billed for DEWA charges, losing the 3% increment, flying under the loosest FTL's in the industry, operating under a punitive flt ops mgt psyche...all to be told that in effect you are taking a cut (3% last yr and this year is equal to 6.1%)...in the face of what will be robust profits.

I have held my breath with my colleagues when it came to criticising the co. as I believed the opportunity to atone would present itself in the form of fair pay at the annual review.

They were right and I was wrong.

A sad day indeed for the pilot group that carried this airline through the storm.

Pity,

f.

Iver

6th May 2010, 13:49

fliion,

If it is any consolation, Delta will start hiring back in the States in the fall and both JetBlue and AirTran are currently hiring. I suspect many American drivers will be reviewing their options...

a345xxx

6th May 2010, 13:56

thats good news Iver!!!!

xbleedstart

6th May 2010, 14:16

I have held my comments until now. I agree. What a slap in the face! Raising the productivity pay is even a bigger joke when the hours to obtain the pay is set out of reach!
Feeling "gutted"

XBS

flareflyer

6th May 2010, 14:27

We can complain as long as we want but at the end the sad thing is that still many pilots are applying and many are joining........
An average of 20 per month are joining.......
The only way we can change the situation is changing job......:ugh:

Flare

CNJB777

6th May 2010, 14:38

I too have held by mouth untill now, but the letter from TCAS just "Gutted" me clean thru! 6%, what a slap in the face to the hard working pilots of EK. The cherry on top was the raising of the "Productivity Pay" to 600 aed????!!!! Where the bar is so high that is almost impossible to reach. The Callout pay to 1200 aed is another joke, which will never be used!!! And if used the crew sched officer will be sacked immediately!!!
The message is clear Gentlemen..........We are NOT appreciated!
They think that the pilot shortage will go away and people are really dying to come live in DXB, but the horse has already bolted, (No Pun intended...ha ha) never to return :D. The truth is out about Emirates and living in Dubai and no amount of pretending or head in the sand will change the facts.......... Uncaring managment and a VERY Expensive place to live.:=
Keep recovering.........

FUSE PLUG

6th May 2010, 14:59

Wow Sandbitc*!

Way to go way off topic with that one. Keep up the faith with us US boys.

I bet you're a hoot to share the cockpit with too.

You might not miss me when I'm gone... but your wife and 18 year old daughter will.

Now enough mud slingin' at each other. We should be throwing it at our employer.

-FP

dustyprops

6th May 2010, 15:13

Well I for one will miss alot of our American brothers, alot of good blokes there. You are obviously not a team player sandhound, and I reckon it's miraculous that you got through the head checks!?!?!?!

bvcu, if you are not a pilot, then f@*k off!

drop kick

6th May 2010, 15:40

I think that most of the guys from the US are good blokes, its worth remembering that most of them are here because it was there best option at the time, while alot of the other nationalities where here because they wanted or needed an ex pat lifestlye. Personally I think this is a time we should be united and not bitching about nationalities.
The pay rise is a fu@king insult. I normally keep my mouth shut and only read this forum but enough is enough.

PorkKnuckle

6th May 2010, 17:29

By applying the 6% to EACH step (this is unprecedented at EK) instead of as a pay increase to the base, the gap between each step and the next one is now greater by 3% and the corresponding amount.

The gulf widens, eh? Your hungry FO with three kids and a high-maintenance, Jumeirah Jane wife will really enjoy that.

What a great CRM tactic.

By increasing the overtime rate and callout pay, they pay nothing whilst appearing to give us an increase.

"Smoke And Mirrors" That should EK's motto...

Adjusting the salary by 6% is a shallow attempt to make you think they've given back the 3% they "promised" but did not deliver last year - plus this year's 3%. They'll mention that in propaganda in a few years from now - to the new-joiners who fail to recognise lies and bull**** when they hear it.

Welcome to the real world , the whole company has been on performance related pay , i.e no increments as per contract since 1995 ish . Dont see why pilots were made a special case.

Maybe you should increase your performance then, pen-pusher! :} If you're envious of pilots, go get yourself an ATPL and seven or eight thousand hours and come back for "the good life" and moan on a pilots' website.

Enjoy your weekend while the special cases are off flying. http://www.augk18.dsl.pipex.com/Smileys/finger2.gif http://www.augk18.dsl.pipex.com/Smileys/F.gif

Iver

6th May 2010, 17:49

Sandhound,

My point is that the US market is gradually recovering and I have read that a number of "desirable" US airlines are announcing hiring efforts now and in the fall - Delta (world's current largest airline until UAL/CAL consummated), JetBlue and AirTran have announced hiring. This means American pilots looking to return to the States may act on it if given the opportunity. Former CRJ pilots who now have 777 experience with EK may be in a better position to land a job in the States.

EK should expect more Americans leaving if the poor conditions continue. That said, EK managers probably won't care with the huge number of Indian 737/A320 pilots who would kill for an EK job.

Tail Rota

6th May 2010, 17:57

Hi Fellas:E

just wait for the profitshare before you blow a valve......then we will really see if all our hard work was worth it.....:D

TR:ok:

Boeing 777-300ER

6th May 2010, 17:59

The following from an American Pilot Forum ;-

Roughly 240 pilots.

New network plan for 2011 is driving a significant increase in pilot block hours for the Summer of 2011 and onward.

Internal document indicates hiring to begin in the fall.

InnocentBystander

6th May 2010, 19:47

The following from an American Pilot Forum

As in "American Airlines Pilot"?

That would indeed be good news.

As everyone else complaining about the payrise? I don't see it. We have heard how there were waves of guys resigning, but the seniority list does not support this. Sorry.

Don't get me wrong, I do think the 6% rise is an insult to us. But I don't think it's enough of an insult for people to actually resign (and not just say they would).

I do think however, that we are no longer attracting the kind of pilots we should be attracting.

puff m'call

6th May 2010, 19:47

Well it's all been said but really can't sit and say nothing.
6%, it's a total disgrace, how Stealey has the guts to put his sh1tty name by it I'll never know.

It's not even close to being a pay rise, simple as that.

bvcu

6th May 2010, 21:51

bit touchy aren't we , good team player by the sounds of things !!! Any way instead of the ABUSE why not comment on the facts why should one small group of people have kept their increments ??? My gripe is with a 'contract' we all had that said increments and dropped it for the majority . Especially when the rest of us are not legally protested with duty time limits like you guys , dont get me wrong i know the problems but its still relative . If it wasnt for the legal stuff EK would be operating with an FO and 2 cabin crew to operate , which is effectively what the rest of the staff are doing !!!

Jakedog

7th May 2010, 04:30

Gents,

There is another way to look at this. It will now be 2 extra years before you hit the top end of the the payscale. 2 years less of no 3% increment..just a thought..............

fliion

7th May 2010, 05:03

Sandhound -targeting a particular nationality for criticism - is totally unprofessional.

The last thing we need is a group with 100+ nationalities getting into a mudslinging match with each other.

TCAS is English - so by your logic.....

Grow up,

f.

Chewthecrude

7th May 2010, 06:03

Doesn't cover the cost of escalating shopping trips to Spinneys! Have you seen the price increases? Ouch!

Mister Warning

7th May 2010, 08:26

Contacted, haven't you realised yet that EK are the world's first Low Cost Three Class airline?
Slave labor = profit. :sad:

Rather Be Skiing

7th May 2010, 09:28

First Officer starting at Etihad:

Starting salary of AED 25480 or USD 6925 per month for First officers and an annual salary increment of AED 500 per month.

First Officer starting at EK: AED 22720

So why would one choose EK over Etihad? They start at more than an EK F/O in 3rd year!!! :ugh:

616200

7th May 2010, 10:38

If you add up the difference the company puts in the Provident Fund, it becomes pretty much the same.
Plus I would not even compare the level of accommodation provided by the 2 employers..

Check 'Six'

7th May 2010, 13:04

Smoke and Mirrors, once again.

Absolutely outrageous that we remain at the same step. And the reason given as well is equally as outrageous.

600 hours productivity pay?? For those of us who are prepared to work hard enough for it???? Give me a break!!!!! ALL THE PILOTS ARE WORKING HARD ENOUGH!!!!! It is as if 90 plus hours is now the norm? INDUSTRY NORM FOR PRODUCTIVITY IS AROUND THE 75 HOUR MARK EMIRATES MANAGEMENT. YOU JUST TOOK IT UP TO 90 PLUS HOURS VERY RECENTLY.

God help us with this lot!!!

Dogged

7th May 2010, 13:14

Sorry but I'm a little confused. Does my pay go up by 6% this month or is it only first year starting pay that goes up by the 6% ???

mensaboy

7th May 2010, 13:39

All pilot's Basic Pay increases 6%.

what_goes_up

7th May 2010, 14:00

Pilots are the most important people in any airline. We can do your job and the job of about any SVP in this airline but you guys can't do ours. Just remember NO PILOTS - NO EK !!
Man, I wish, I had your ego.... there are thousands of pilots waiting to get in... if you lower the entry requirements enough.
Why is it, that pilots tend to think they could do any aviation related job better than the ones doing it (eg ATC...)?

Back to topic... the pay review is just pathetic:{

Check 'Six'

7th May 2010, 14:35

The entry requirements HAVE been dropped already. How much lower would you like them to go??

Check Six

what_goes_up

7th May 2010, 14:48

The entry requirements HAVE been dropped already. How much lower would you like them to go??
You got me wrong. I don't LIKE them to go any lower then they were before. But you'll see, that is the way we go... There will always be enough pilots if you are a bit creative with the requirements.

Quality... what quality?
Safety... Is that anything more than a cuss for them?

We need so many pilots, so let's see how low we have to set the hurdles to get them.
Been like that before and will happen again.

EK Snorkel

7th May 2010, 15:12

Why is it, that pilots tend to think they could do any aviation related job better than the ones doing it (eg ATC...)?

Did I write something about ATC? No I did not.

Looking at the background and performance of the average Manager in EK I believe indeed that most of us pilots would do a better job. However, I don't know if that would include you as well.

125'000 DHS a month for SVP,s with a community college education at best ....and pilots don't get their DEWA bill covered ?! Give me a break!!:ugh:

what_goes_up

7th May 2010, 15:46

Did I write something about ATC? No I did not.
Buddy, I wrote pilots not you. This just another example that comes up over and over again where pilots would do a much better job. And one that I am a bit touchy with as an ex blip pusher.
125'000 DHS a month for SVP,s with a community college education at best ....and pilots don't get their DEWA bill covered ?! Give me a break!!
I am not a fan of our pathetic, ignorant, spineless and leadershipless bunch of managers. But moaning about their salary puts you on the same level. As PorkKnuckle pointed out earlier:
If you're envious of pilots, go get yourself an ATPL and seven or eight thousand hours and come back for "the good life" and moan on a pilots' website.
Put it the other way 'round. If you envy them so hard, why don't you get yourself this community college education and sit in their seat?

Off to do something more worthwhile than arguing with you....

Check 'Six'

7th May 2010, 15:53

Ok What goes up I get your point.

Yes you are right, they will probably lower the requirements more.

However they must bear in mind that currently the failure rate is 70% for new entries. So the quality will be comprimised further by lowering the requirements.

Flaite

7th May 2010, 15:55

how do you know of that 70% failure rate?:confused:

what_goes_up

7th May 2010, 16:03

CheckSix
So the quality will be comprimised further by lowering the requirements.
I am 100% with you. But then again see my previous post
Quality... what quality?
Safety... Is that anything more than a cuss for them?

We need so many pilots, so let's see how low we have to set the hurdles to get them.
Been like that before and will happen again.

EK Snorkel

7th May 2010, 16:17

Put it the other way 'round. If you envy them so hard, why don't you get yourself this community college education and sit in their seat?

Well I got way more than a community college education. And YES you are right I should become one of them as our profession has become a complete joke ...screwing pilots seems to be a very lucrative business:rolleyes:

And one that I am a bit touchy with as an ex blip pusher.

"Blip pushers" and Engineers always had my respect and they deserve their money as we do. No argument there. However, that does not apply for pseudo managers and office clerks:ouch:

But moaning about their salary puts you on the same level. As PorkKnuckle pointed out earlier:

It is crucial to highlight what our management earns. In the good old days the only person who earned more than the most Senior Captain was the President & Chief Executive. Food for thought ;)

In EK a VP of the "Chicken and Beef department" earns more than a senior captain and that IS WRONG!!

Enough said ...out for some beers ...cheers :p

BYMONEK

7th May 2010, 19:06

The credability of some people on these forums is bordering on the rediculous. 70% failure rate? What complete and utter tosh.

If you're going to come on here and try to put forward a valid argument, get your facts right first!

boofta

7th May 2010, 19:41

Dear Bymonek
So you have an idea or know of the actual failure rates do you?
How about posting some figures so potential recruits will
get a heads up on the possibilities or sense of joining EK!

Dropp the Pilot

7th May 2010, 19:48

To be fair, he may be speaking of a 70% failure rate at the interview stage. As one who sees the occasional bright-faced prospectives for their interview sim session I can tell you with certainty that we are getting a large number of apes. I can't believe some of them have survived thus far; it must be down to the high quality of autopilots these days.

This is to be contrasted with the failure rate of those who are hired and then fail the initial training. I would be very surprised if this exceeds 1%, a number which is a credit to those who actually do the interviewing and hiring.

Check 'Six'

7th May 2010, 19:53

Let me be more specific to help some of my esteemed colleagues.

70% of all new Pilots undergoing the selection process, in other words, during the recruitment phase. i.e Sim check on 1st day and all the other hurdles they have to pass before being offered employment, ARE NOT MAKING THE GRADE.

Ridiculous as it may seem to some of you? Those are the numbers. Which means if the company needs to employ 300, they have to interview 510.
(ACTUALLY AS POINTED OUT BY FJORDVIKING 1000 pilots interviewed for 300 required and not the rubbish or tosh i wrote of 510)
Ok?

Now go Check your Six

mensaboy

7th May 2010, 20:50

I have heard that the failure rate is now 50% as opposed to the historical average of 40%, which might not set off alarm bells unless you consider the following.......

Our recruiting department is obviously under pressure to 'find' and then accept suitable applicants. So as a normal human being in such a position, you would be more inclined to accept someone boardering on acceptability, than say 7 years ago.

My point being, that the decline from 50% to 40% of acceptable applicants, which not not seem so bad, is not a true reflections of what is actually happening. There is no doubt in my mind that EK is accepting some applicants who in the past would have been punted out the door.

We probably won't see the results of this decline for a few years but we just went thru a period of a massive increase in UNsuccessful Capt upgrades, which coincided with the last time frame that EK was unable to attract the most desirable candidates.

Unfortunately, the next phase will occur exactly when many local pilots are elligible for upgrade too. I fear the scales have been tipped too far.

fjordviking

7th May 2010, 21:24

I guess simple math is not your strong point. If 70% fail their interview you would need to have 1000 candidates for assessment to end up with 300.
30% of 510 is 153. Let your wife help your kids with the homework, and you can be left to use your mental math trying to do that perfect CDA into London.:ok:

Check 'Six'

7th May 2010, 21:37

HA HA HA Thanks fjord I screwed that one up:ok:

Dropp the Pilot, thanks for that. Spot on!!

Cheers

Check Six:ok:

Check 'Six'

7th May 2010, 22:30

HA HA HA HA :ok: No fatigue this month brother, just plain el stupido!!!!

I will change my call sign from Check 'Six'. to El Professor no?:ok:

M-rat

8th May 2010, 05:14

Increasing the inducement to fly beyond the insane target of 92 hours hard time and creating incentive to work on days off is endangering the airline. :(

GNL

8th May 2010, 08:14

...can anyone please point out to me where the contract actually states the 3% increment, I know its there but cant find it.... like all useful facts has it 'migrated'

I have found the Profit share which is black and white ( as far as anything can be)....

If the contract is once again simply disregarded (ie there are no get out clauses).. is it not about time a legal action was brought for breach by all those it concerns. I know the rule is through bullying here but in this day and age surely an online association could be formed and an action brought through its collective name. I also hear that they would rather fire us all than concede... well if that is true then why have a contract at all ?

Pilots are better than groundstaff stuff ??... it really is much simpler than that. Its an airline. Airlines fly planes and therefore you need pilots. No pilots= no planes= no ground jobs= no airline...not better than or worse than simply chicken and egg...

When we accepted the job here we all took the contract carefully into consideration. This has now been ignored and changed without any regard for the employee so many times over the last year, that it can no longer be considered an agreement... by either side... this destroys the trust that is required and without trust the airline is finished. Everyone has there breaking point and all must decide their own personal limit.

below is one of the continued adverts for EK

''cosmopolitan cities in the Middle East, well known for its wealth of fantastic shopping, sporting opportunities and a wonderful social life. Our attractive remuneration package includes a tax free salary of UAE Dhs 16040 with annual increments, fully furnished accommodation (including utilities),

Wizofoz

8th May 2010, 09:26

can anyone please point out to me where the contract actually states the 3% increment, I know its there but cant find it

That would be because it ISN'T in the contract.

Full payment of utilities IS however!

GNL

8th May 2010, 09:37

ok thanks for clarifying that...

IXNAT

8th May 2010, 11:30

So is, obting out of accommodations and getting an allowance. Does not specify if you buy or rent. Any move out, should get you the allowance. Changed to only buy.....

bvcu

8th May 2010, 11:44

Increment was in contract , and mine (long time ago) came with a 10 year table of increments with salary total. Probably long since amended out ?There is something there that says they can vary the terms with a notification without amending contract . Then becomes a totally one way contract , dont know how they can hold you to it when they want to , but in the present climate i guess its their trainset ! Only option left is take it or leave it , but feel sorry for those that had options and left acceptable jobs (in hindsight) and are now stuck. Keep discovering !!!

fatbus

8th May 2010, 12:37

I think you will find the the pay table was not a annual pay increase it was a table that you would move only when the management deemed it so IE not a given that you would move up every year. The letter always con grated you for your service and rewarded you with a more up wards

Three Wire

8th May 2010, 14:10

"Fraid not Fatbus. It was included in a briefing sheet which speciiically stated that it formed a contract when attached to a letter of offer.

And my copy covered Falcon 20, B727, and A310/300 with increments over 10 years.

BYMONEK

8th May 2010, 20:02

Check six

Perhaps it was my interpretation of your term 'new entries'. By that, I assumed that they had already joined us and were not still at the interview stage.

I can't speak for recruitment failure rates but for the trainees that actually pass the selection stage, the failure rate is around 3%. Good enough boofta? :ok:

fatbus

9th May 2010, 02:07

Give credit to the recruitment guys for trying to maintain some sort of standard. Not sure of the date Jan or Feb, 1 no show 15 interviewed 1 passed( sim), plus increase number of guys turning down the offer and going down the road because of upgrade policy

Getzo

9th May 2010, 08:33

"Do you want to shut down an engine on taxi?":ugh:
No Thanks!:rolleyes:

G

Check 'Six'

9th May 2010, 09:33

BYMONEK I realized that is what you meant. About the trainees once they have passed the interview. Tha failure rate is very low. As DROPP said, a testament to our recruiting team who are under a tremendous amount of pressure.
And in that team I include as front line the TRE's involved. They are doing an excellent job.

No problemo amigo :ok:

Check Six

Dixons Cider

10th May 2010, 04:05

bullying here but in this day and age surely an online association

The year here is 1431.
This sadly is a KEY point to life in the gulf.

mourgo

10th May 2010, 07:09

Sorry to hear about the crap pay anyone want to come to OZ to fly a private A330 for a private billionaire? The pay is about triple EK's pay and all flights even 3-4 hour flights are manned with 3 pilots. Msg me for details.

tica

14th May 2010, 19:08

Guess Wright Brothers were a pilots and they were born at Jebel Ali! Aviation started at 1986!!!

Jet II

15th May 2010, 02:48

Pilots are better than groundstaff stuff ??... it really is much simpler than that. Its an airline. Airlines fly planes and therefore you need pilots. No pilots= no planes= no ground jobs= no airline

Simple but wrong - it is a team effort.

If the Engineers didn't deliver a serviceable aircraft you wouldn't go anywhere, if the guy didn't pump the gas you wouldn't go anywhere, if the loaders didn't didn't put the freight on board you wouldn't go anywhere, if the guy in finance didn't renew the aircraft insurance you wouldn't go anywhere, etc. etc. etc. - but you get my drift.

Not forgetting the the most important job in the airline, done by the young Indian girl on about 900 Dhs a month - if she didn't push the right button for the pay to go in the bank each month you wouldn't even be getting out of bed.;)

ekwhistleblower

15th May 2010, 05:13

I beg to differ, my contract circa 2000 says:

"Your basic starting salary will be DHS 16,040 per month. Salary scales are reviewed annually on 1st May. Based on Individual Performance, increase within the scale may be awarded."

Now EK are saying 'may' does not relate to the first sentence about individual performance. I am not sure that would work in a court of law.

LongExcursion

15th May 2010, 08:36

Anyone for starting our own airline? We need some glue, some cloth, a few rolls of sheet metal, pop-rivets, a welding torch and some committed human capital.

syedo

15th May 2010, 10:19

Quote:
Originally Posted by GNL http://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://www.pprune.org/middle-east/414392-pay-raise-portal-now-post5680973.html#post5680973)
Pilots are better than groundstaff stuff ??... it really is much simpler than that. Its an airline. Airlines fly planes and therefore you need pilots. No pilots= no planes= no ground jobs= no airline

Simple but wrong - it is a team effort.

If the Engineers didn't deliver a serviceable aircraft you wouldn't go anywhere, if the guy didn't pump the gas you wouldn't go anywhere, if the loaders didn't didn't put the freight on board you wouldn't go anywhere, if the guy in finance didn't renew the aircraft insurance you wouldn't go anywhere, etc. etc. etc. - but you get my drift.

Not forgetting the the most important job in the airline, done by the young Indian girl on about 900 Dhs a month - if she didn't push the right button for the pay to go in the bank each month you wouldn't even be getting out of bed.http://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/smilies/wink2.gif

agreed its a team effort... we need each and everyone to ensure a profitable and efficient airline. but i remember the old days, we used to do our own loading and manual loadsheet calculations, we can sign the techlog at outstation if no major defects, we can fill up the tank provided they have the ladder for us to reach the fuel inlet. what i am trying to say is, we, the pilots are the 'heart' of any airline. we are trained to ensure airline is moving forward, passengers reach their destinations in 1 piece. thats why our salaries are higher than that of the groundstaff. and those SVP's, VP's are earning higher than us, coz they suppose to be the 'brain' of an airline, managing and to ensure the airline moving at the right path.
But most of the time, these SVPs and VPs brains are somehow at the wrong part of the body....

Pitch Up Authority

15th May 2010, 13:33

If a pilot screws up in the sim you can learn something from it. In the worst case you get a second chance with another TRE.

If you or a third party screws up, reality is such that you are in BIG trouble. Even small issues can become very annoying.

In other words you really bare the consequences for your actions.

The best thing you can do is to work for an airline that has a management that has the ability to reflect on this difference with their own responsibilities and consequences.

Moaning about a bonus in an airline that has a proven record of being unable to deal with the HR factor is unrealistic.

Having said so, if EK would make an in depth analysis of the moaning pilots they would discover that there is a problem within the recruitment of their pilots as well as with their managers. Too many egocentric Brits and Aussies.

Maybe EK functions as a magnet. In other words it looks like the aforementioned individuals select each other.