EK back to Four pilot 201's?

[Kamelchaser]

What's the deal with the 201 now? Checked the crews for the next few days...all four pilot.

Have the "seasonal winds" disappeared?

Do we have enough pilots now?

Or maybe some regulator found the obvious chink in EK's own rules that made the 3 pilot thing all a little dodgy in the first place?

[fatbus]

nothing dodgy about the 3 pilot thing it is legal but allowed for very little delay and a chance that a Captain with a pair may say no if delayed
there has been some very costly delays / cnx 'd flights because of 2 pilots on a variation and 3 pilots delayed

[Plank Cap]

At a recent post-groundschool management brief, TCAS pretty much admitted the 3 crew JFK concept was dead in the water. Flew an audit flight last month with two gents from the GCAA on the jumpseats, and it was quite apparent that they were very anti - 3 crew ULR of any variety.

Has the 'authority' spoken one wonders..........?

[KRUGERFLAP]

I really hope they stop this trend,because EY is looking into as well . To apply this F:mad: rule of 3 man crew on ULR flights to save money and f:mad: the upgrade time.

[mensaboy]

I heard the ICN and PVG flights have increased to 3 pilots now.

The ONE and ONLY thing that has caused these changes is the filing of Fatigue Related ASR's.
TCAS just posted a few ASR's on the Weekly Update and we all should question why. Obviously his contention that the company had not previously responded to Fatigue ASR's in a proper manner, is just smoke and mirrors since he took great pleasure in picking apart the ASR's. IMHO, he is subtly attempting to intimidate pilots from filing Fatigue ASR's.

It seems the GCAA has finally taken notice of the Fatigue issue at EK and the company is desparate to decrease the number of Fatigue ASR's. Unfortunately, the company is not focusing on decreasing Fatigue, just the reporting of it via ASR's.

It was only a few months back when TCAS, ED and MM stated that the company did not consider Fatigue an issue. Now when they have apparently been questioned by the GCAA, they don't decide to fix the problem, but rather 'hide' it.

If you believe Fatigue is an issue at EK, then you should file ASR's and also book off SKF when you experience symptoms. It is your professional responsibility and besides, nothing will change if you don't. That is a proven fact. I think Fatigue, crazy rostering and an over reliance on the FRMS is the single biggest problem at Emirates.

[Kamelchaser]

Yes, interesting (and pleasing to see) EK's backtrack on ICN, PVG and maybe JFK. They never do this by choice, and no doubt the growing number of fatique related ASRs has a lot to do with it.

Interesting that TCAs would start publicly criticizing the wording of some ASRs..but only fatique ASRs?

One reporter commented he had flown three "back-to-back" highly fatiguing flights. Despite even EK's "SAFE" fatique monitoring software indicating that it would be fatiguing, TCAS chose to attack the reporter's use of the wording "back-to-back", saying that the three fights had 36hrs rest between each pattern.

Obviously in his world, only a minimum 12hour rest would be considered "back-to-back". In our world, it's about day after day after day of switching your body clock rest patterns around.

Numerous on-line dictionaries would disagree with his definition of "back-to-back";

back-to-back

Consecutively, one after another, as in I'm exhausted; I had three meetings back to back. [Mid-1900s]

adjective
☆ INFORMAL one right after another; consecutive

back-to-back (bkt-bk)
adj.
Consecutive; successive

back-to-back
adjective, adverb
happening one after the other


Yet again, EK management tries to tell its staff what is fatiguing and what's not. Yet again, the company's own fatique management systems are quietly sweep aside, and pilots are criticized for the wording of the ASR rather than a serious review of the content.

[Plank Cap]

Ladies and Gents,

The GCAA are currently very interested in the subject of fatigue.

If you are concerned that any UAE operator is not suitably focussed on your fatigue related ASR, please file direct with the GCAA (with a copy to your company) following the requirements of the recently introduced Reporting of Safety Incident (ROSI) system. The link below will direct you there:

GCAA - Reporting Of Safety Incident (ROSI) (http://www.gcaa.ae/en/rosi/Pages/home.aspx)

[pool]

.... but be aware:
They have loaded their guns. Just analyse the contribution of TCAS in the lates newsletter. It is a blatant warning to all of us. It says the company is up in arms against the complaining pilots. They see feeling and reporting of fatigue as an industrial action, nothing less, nothing else.
You will be summoned to one of their bootlickers in the office and he will tell you that you tarnish the image of Emirates by filing ASRs or complaining. A warning will be issued referring to any insinuated bs they can find in your wording.

They have unveiled their ugly face. It's called rule by intimidation.
Be very careful.

[helen-damnation]

Did we read different stuff because I didn't see that :ooh:

[BYMONEK]

Pool

Are you familiar with the term paranoia? You have buckets of the stuff.

Do you ever intend posting something of value on these forums or are you intent on continuing with your rather pointless and infantile posts? :bored:

[pool]

It is clearly an incredibly fatiguing roster and not the best one to try and pick apart

Now the question remains WHY he picked it apart (read it again helen), and I gave a hypothesis. Unlike BYMONEK who only attacks without antithesis. Very easy Brian or similar.

New hypothesis:
Do as Plank Cap suggests and then come back here to recount, I guess you will have to consent.

[Fellowship of the drink]

Just dont go to work tired/fatigued.

Who cares what TCAS or any other management dictator says or threatens. Its YOUR license on the line here and believe me, the company will bail on you so quickly if something goes wrong.

They will say things like "XYZ's roster was legal and he/she shouldnt have gone to work tired. It says so in the OM-A, we have the industry leading FRMS bullcrap and rosters are screened with our latest toy called SAFE...blah blah lah. The biggest loser = you, and for what? Because you were intimidated by some fleet newsletter????

Do what is right for you and your family, that is to preserve your life then your license and work till you think its time to retire and don't give in to petty intimidation - its not worth dying for.

[pool]

Fotd

You are right and I admit that I might seem paranoid (see BYMONEKs contribution). Eventually I have good reason to be so by what I have heard first hand from at least three collegues and by own experience. Difficult to provide proof here, logically.

It is the coincidence of TCAS publishing his dissection of genuinly serious fatigue events and the call of our CHFR facilitator (on the portal) that should make any pilot and regulator suspicious. It is unheard of that an operational manager openly dissects safety reports by active pilots on internal media. It would seem lesson number1 in any leadership course, CRM course or safety awareness program that this should be the most important thing NOT TO DO if you mean serious business! Just reflect on this a little bit deeper. It is a NO GO in a safety postholder position. The mere fact that he went forward with what he knows is worst practice should raise all alarm bells.

It is not surprising at all that our CHFR facilitator traces the industry wide lowest reporting average to ' ... this is most likely due to a lack of trust'.

RRRRRRRRRRIIIIIIIIIIIIIINNNNNGGGGGG ........ GCAA are you awake??????

[NG_Kaptain]

Here's a cut and paste from our OMA, a ULR city pair is over 14 hours at any time in a calendar year, and I believe it's a GCAA requirement. Doesn't read to me when the winds drop you can reduce the crew complement.

"Ultra Long Range Operations (ULR):
An operation involving any sector between a specific city pair (Point A – Point B– Point A) where the scheduled flight time could exceed 14 hours (15 hours for cabin crew) at any time during a calendar year, taking into account the mean and seasonal wind changes."

Does EK's OMA have this?

[Mr Angry from Purley]

Back to Back in Crewing speak is in one day out the next. It's often associated with flights to/from the same place i.e. LHR-JFK-LHR then same again. The big difference is that the flights are relatively the same and the times relatively the same. If your having 36hrs inbetween that could mean your transitting night/day/night/day horrible
Whilst the SAFE module will give a good idea common sense is more likely to give better indications of fatigue......:\

[lowstandard]

The safety management order:

Ass, Licence, Job

[mensaboy]

It's not the company 'in general' which is ignoring the obvious problem of fatigue....... it is AAR.

He has made numerous decisions that not only affect our T&C's but also our ability to affectively and efficiently carry our flights. If this man were in my home country he would have been taken aside several times and then eventually beaten. He is that bad of a manager and a human being.

Sadly, TCAS is more concerned about his benefits than doing the correct thing but he does have his hands tied to a certain extent. He literallly would have to 'fall on his sword' in an attempt to fix the underlying issues, which we all know he is not willing or capable of doing. TCAS decided years ago that he should risk an impending disaster versus his personal rewards.

TCAS knows better, unlike Ed who simpy did what he was told. And because of that, I hold TCAS in lower regards than him. Ed is just an illiterate and dumb man.

WE HAVE TWO RECOURSEs AT EK. File ASR's and book off sick due to fatigue.

Finally, after six months (excluding the overall fatigue issue), the GCAA is aware of the problem. We have nothing else! Our managers are self-serving individuals without regard for their employee's health or even their passengers safety.

I'm not intimidated at all by TCAS's subtle threats, in fact he has inspired me to file a report when in the past I might have been reluctant. This is the first time in the history of this airline when we actually have the 'idiots in charge' by the balls. If we miss this opportunity, then we deserve what we get.

FILE FATIGUE ASR's whenever it is valid. Book-off Sick Fatigue whenever it is valid.

I realize that a percentage of foolish Captains will continue to go into discretion, push the limits and do basically as the company demands but if the rest of us normal and decent human beings do what is professional and justifiable, then we actually might see a change. Otherwise we are doomed.

[Fellowship of the drink]

Hey guys,

If SK=Sick and SKF=Sick due to Fatigue, is there an in between?

Filing ASRs regarding fatigue is honest and noble. Ideally, it should not get to that point. Is there a code for being unable to do a flight due to the inability to obtain sufficient rest or recover from a 3am-2pm turnaround to India even with a local night's rest? Those pairings take a big chunk out of the best of us since we lose a night's sleep and only have a local night to catch up with 2 nights of sleep deficit before the next 3am-2pm turnaround.

[harry the cod]

Pool

Are you saying we shouldn't trust the CHFR system or that we should ?

I seem to recall the same or similar article published on a training newsletter late last year so the request for more CHFR's is not new. It may either be coincidental timing as you say or, intentially put out to offer us another means to highlight safety issues beacause of percieved negativity from AS's comments.

On a personal note, I too think there are far too may guys at work making arse covering decisions rather than just getting on with the job using common sense. Paranoia is not something you should take to work with you. As Fotd has stated, go sick if you are unfit to fly. Have the balls to do so. Don't abuse it like a few, that way you can stand up and have a valid argument.

When people are stopping and recalculating speeds for a K1 departure eventhough they have K2 figures, you know things have got silly. :eek:

Harry

[pool]

Harry

No, I am not saying we should not trust the CHFR. I know the man and do not doubt his integrity as well as I fully endorse the anonymous reporting system (worked well where I came from). It is the attitude of the people further up that make me shiver and distrust the WHOLE system.
AS just showed what they think of reporting in general: ‘Report if it is to fix something that does not imply cost or points out a wrong decision of a manager, otherwise be prepared to be dissected and discredited openly (and punished disclosedly,)as we do not like that’.
Simply consider the catch phrase in the CHFR’s article: ‘Only in the case of extremely serious reports would there be any form of action’. Now just who will decide what extremely serious report shall lead to action and what does ‘any form’ mean? It is right here where trust sets in and, again, I trust the CHFR, but I truly believe he is powerless if the higher ups want to get to any information of any incident, simply by applying the above exception. In most airlines there is some sort of counterweight to oppression with a union. I am not particularly fond of unions, but in this respect they fulfill an important function. It is clearly missing at EK, the counterweight you attribute to the CHFR is a bag of feathers compared to the interests and power of the likes of AAR and AS. With so much uncontested power comes arrogance and the danger sets in.
I am sure not alone with this suspicion, therefore the lack of reports.