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View Full Version : Rules re flying G reg on FAA licence


nigelh
3rd May 2010, 00:19
The old rule of thumb was you have to have 2 out of 3 ....when flying abroad. Ie UK licence on G reg or FAA on N reg abroad, but i am told that now, with the new so called open sky, you can fly a G reg in Europe on your FAA ticket . Does anybody know the FACTS ?? I have heard loads of speculation but would like to know the facts . I am going to be flying a G reg machine around Europe soon and face having to get the type on my licence ( i have been flying this machine for the last 6 months and done around 100 hrs ). Typically the CAA make this a painful operation , as they are trying to stop all aviation in this country:ugh: Do i have to just sit a check ride ? of course not ....a written exam followed by a check ride ? Dont be stupid !!!!! No , i have to do 3 hours of training and then bring an examiner up from the South to do the test :ugh: What a load of rubbish ....nearly 4 hours of flying and a whole load of fees just in the name of red tape . If its a grey area maybe someone should put it to the test?
Flying abroad can be the ONLY reason that anyone would want a CAA licence is it not ? AND you get your night rating built in at the same time .
ps forgot to say that an instructor has checked with someone at the CAA and they were not sure .........

birrddog
3rd May 2010, 01:58
According to the CAA Website (http://www.caa.co.uk/default.aspx?catid=175&pagetype=70&gid=180&faqid=208):

We have received a number of enquiries from Non-UK licence holders about exercising the privileges of their licences within the UK. The situation is as follows:

Article 50(i) of the Air Navigation Order 2009 (the ANO), states that a pilot must hold an appropriate licence to fly a UK registered aircraft. An appropriate licence is a licence granted or rendered valid under the Order.

JAA aeroplane and helicopter licences are, subject to the conditions included in it, validated by the Certificate of Validation in the Official Record Series No.4 – Miscellaneous, ORS4 No.747

A licence, except a Student Pilot Licence or equivalent issued by any other ICAO Contracting State (including a JAA State that has not yet been recommended for mutual recognition) is also deemed to be valid under the ANO for the purposes of flying a UK registered aircraft, providing that the licence and medical are valid in accordance with the rules/laws of the issuing State, and the CAA does not in the particular case give a direction to the contrary. However, Article 62(4) of the ANO states that the holder of such a licence cannot:

1) Act as a member of the fight crew of any aircraft flying for the purpose of commercial air transport, public transport or aerial work or on any flight in respect of which he receives remuneration for his services as a member of the flight crew; or

2) In the case of a pilot’s licence, act as a pilot of any aircraft flying in controlled airspace in circumstances requiring compliance with the Instrument Flight Rules or to give any instruction in flying.

Where a licence contains any extraordinary operational or medical limitations, individuals should contact L&TS for advice.

Although the intro states the enquiries regards operating within the UK, nothing I read states it is not applicable outside the UK.

The UK ANO states it is legal to fly a G Reg machine on a valid ICAO license and medical.

I don't know what would stop this being legal crossing the border, unless the respective countries have legislation that states reg and license have to be the same.

nigelh
3rd May 2010, 09:30
Like all the rest of the legislation made by the CAA this makes things very clear .......does anyone have experience of flying a G reg in Europe on their FAA ticket ???? and have they had any problems relating to this ?? I agree that i think you CAN now fly in Europe on your FAA .

nigelh
3rd May 2010, 21:20
Do i take it that there are NO people out there who fly their G reg machines in Europe on FAA ticket ???? Or fly their N reg in Europe on their UK ticket ?? Thanks for any help otherwise waiting for CAA to decide if they understand their own rules .

pitot212
3rd May 2010, 21:29
Very Very interesting thread. It's been my understanding that FAA pilots could fly G registered aircraft in the UK only. looking forward to outcome!!!!!

MHCMan
3rd May 2010, 21:50
Nigelh, you should have received the e-mail I forwarded onto you from Tim. I have had the French translated by my sons girlfriend and it does say that they would accept a UK registered helicopter flown on an FAA licence in their airspace.......but I would regard this possibly as an exemption for the person who requested it in the first place and I think it would be unwise to assume that you can just go ahead and do it, remember this person also applied to the German authorities aswell, although a copy of this letter is unavailable at the moment but I believe the content of this letter is the same, the German authorities were happy to let this happen. As I said before, one of the options open to you is to apply to the relevant authorities which is what this person did. I understand where your frustrations come from with regarding putting a new type on your licence, but unlike the FAA licence which is a group rating, the UK licence has always as far I am aware been a type rating, and prior to JAR you would have been required to do a minimum of 5 hours training /testing. This requirement of additional flight training is nothing new and if you want to put this type on your UK licence then you will have to do it, as is the requirement to having an examiner who has not been involved in your flight training. It is not a question of common sense but is a legal requirement. The excerpt of the ANO is interesting but you do have to bear in mind that this is UK law, not European law, which is where you want to fly. I have also been led to believe this has more to do with icao licence priveliges rather than the open skies policy. As I said to you when we first discussed this, if you don't want to go through with the type rating to put it on your UK licence then I would contact the relevant authorities and get the clearance from the horses mouth so to speak. I will call you tomorrow.

GKaplan
3rd May 2010, 22:07
I don't see why you couldn't fly a G-reg on an FAA license, regardless of the country you fly in.

It's not the country you're overflying that says what license you need to fly the aircraft; it's the country that has registered the aircraft that decides what is needed to fly it.
And of course the ANO is just UK law, but it's all that's needed. My guess is that you'll find (in other countries' legislations) things along the lines of "foreign registered aircraft are to be operated in accordance with the rules of the country registering the aircraft"...

Look at it this way: you can fly a G-reg with a national UK license (not JAR) without any problem in Europe.
From a French/German/Whatever perspective, an FAA certificate is no different than a national UK license; it's just a non-French/German/Whatever license... so why should it be treated differently?

pookie1
4th May 2010, 07:51
From Birddogs post above, if I understand it correctly, it seems that it is legal to fly a G-reg on an FAA license so long as you don't get paid for it or fly IFR in controlled airspace.

In other words you can more or less fly as a PPL (ie. not for reward) even though you have a CPL or ATP. Is that about right?

s1lverback
4th May 2010, 11:18
Hi Nigel, I do exactly this.

PM me next week (I am away at present) and I will send you the correspondence I received from French DGAC - which I now carry in my flight bag just in case.

Essentially, no issue to fly in France on ICAO license (FAA) on G reg aircraft, as long as you are not flying in IMC or commercially (same as our ANO). The French would have issue (strangely) if you flew a F reg machine.

I suspect the rest of Europe doesn't care that much (but happy to contact their aviation authorities when required).

nigelh
4th May 2010, 12:42
Isnt it wonderful that the CAA are incapable of drafting any kind of sensible rules / laws that people can understand !!!! They work on the basis that its probably NOT going to be possible and probably WILL be illegal ...but dont know why !! Now we have established this i would suggest that EVERYONE who is considering a UL ppl should change their minds and get an FAA licence . It is far better / more common sense / far cheaper to maintain / gives you a night rating at the same time ( this is the one area that may catch you ...when in Europe you cannot operate IFR on this licence ....well Night is not VFR so is it IFR ?? ) Other than that i cannot see any good reason to have a ppl from the UK .....Can you ?????

BillieBob
4th May 2010, 13:15
i would suggest that EVERYONE who is considering a UL ppl should change their minds and get an FAA licence .Not a very wise suggestion given the imminent arrival of the very much more protectionist restrictions of EASA Part-FCL under which a licence issued under ICAO Annex 1 may be validated only for up to one year. The validation may be renewed only once and only provided that the holder is undergoing training for the issue of a Part-FCL licence. ...when in Europe you cannot operate IFR on this licence...Not quite - you cannot operate IFR in controlled airspace on a licence rendered valid under Article 62(2).

nigelh
4th May 2010, 15:39
I now at last have the answer !! ( And typically my sources who asked the CAA got it wrong !!

If flying a G reg on an ICAO ( non JAR ) IR , the UK ANO prohibits IFR in controlled airspece. Ref: ANO article 26 (4) (a) (ii) in the case of a pilots licence, to act as pilot of any aircraft flying in controlled airspace in circumstances requiring compliance with Instrument Flight Rules
Since everything NOT prohibited IS permitted , this means you can fly a G reg on an FAA PPL/IR worldwide VFR in class B,C,D,E,F,G and worldwide IFR in class F,G.
To be practical about it , IFR in class F/G is not useful outside the UK since most airspace in which IFR is authorised (or one can get an IFR routing in ) is at least Class E. Its useable in the UK but only partially : you could fly IFR to say Biggin Hill ( Class G ) but not to Bournmouth (Class D ) This is why getting an IMC Rating is desirable since it extends IFR to Class D , however you then also need a UK PPL , UK Medical etc

BillieBob
4th May 2010, 15:55
the UK ANO prohibits IFR in controlled airspece. Ref: ANO article 26 (4) (a) (ii) in the case of a pilots licenceAs I said, but you have the wrong reference! Article 26 has nothing whatever to do with pilot licensing. Try Article 62(4)(b) instead.

nigelh
5th May 2010, 15:10
Quite right , thankyou . It is surprising that so many people thought otherwise even after asking the CAA for clarification . Says it all doesnt it !

pookie1
5th May 2010, 15:25
Thanks nigelh for figuring that out! It could hardy be more complicated, although I'm sure CAA could work on that!

Its high time that licenses became more internationally recognised to avoid ridiculous complications like this. The crazy thing is that you fly around Europe in an N-reg without any complications but jump into the same aircraft with a G-reg and there are a heap of restrictions.

Maybe in our lifetime we will see licenses being more universal..... Or not!

nigelh
5th May 2010, 15:41
To be fair all the "restrictions " were primarily folk law passed down from one person to another and not helped by many CAA officials who also thought it was illegal . In fact you can pretty much fly anywhere in the world with FAA licence on G reg machine and the only restrictions are related to IFR ...so not bad compared to most things CAA related !!
Next question is do you keep your group ( single turbines in my case Gazelle, H 369 , B 206 + L , As350 , Enstrom 480 ) current if you go overdue your annual check flight and then do a check on one type ...and you have flown the other types within 12 months but on your FAA licence ? ie technically your type ratings have lapsed but you have kept current flying on your FAA licence . Any answers ??

cessna310
5th Jul 2011, 08:31
Hi,


Can JAR CPL holder except payment by flying N reg aircraft on private flying in UK?

cessna310

hands_on123
5th Jul 2011, 08:51
I would think so yes, maybe via a lease agreement. You best ask nigelh!

Starspeed and Premiair both operate N-reg machines on behalf of private owners. (although the pilots may have FAA licences as well as JAA)

nigelh
5th Jul 2011, 10:38
I do believe ( but dont trust me !!) that you can fly a corporate aircraft and be paid with your CPL and dont need any other aoc nonsense . I also believe you can get paid even with a ppl so long as your main duties are other things and you just happen to like to fly the corporate heli :ok:
Just like leasing v charter the devil is in the detail . You must engineer it that the flight is private , no fare paying pax and then you even have the benefit of being able to use Battersea without floats and also another London helipad that most aoc,s are not allowed to use .......i know , but i didnt write the rules !!!

HillerBee
5th Jul 2011, 18:12
A pilot with a JAA CPL(H) and the approriate typerating can fly a N-Reg for remuneration. The license must be issued by the Authority in the country where you will be flying. So you need a UK CAA issued licence to fly a N-Reg in the UK.

Mungo5
6th Jul 2011, 01:53
Try talking to Oli Cooper from Episode 35 of the Flying Podcast.. he's been through the hoops.

Flying Podcast » Blog Archive » Episode 35 - Flight Training in the USA - Angel City Flyers (http://www.flyingpodcast.co.uk/?p=616)

MICK6R4
8th Dec 2011, 21:30
Hi can anyone confirm that if you hold an Faa commercial License, what are you able to fly in Uk can you fly a G reg aircraft in Uk,Ireland,Europe,I am wondering is this a route to go rather than Jaa Commercial.

HillerBee
8th Dec 2011, 21:34
You can only excersise the privileges of a PPL(H) in the UK and Ireland on G or EI reg. As of April 2012 this won't be possible anymore because every European Resident will have to have an JAA/EASA license then.

So it's definitely not the way to go.

SASless
8th Dec 2011, 21:38
If the Euro crashes...and the EU dissolves.....then what?:E

mfriskel
9th Dec 2011, 09:58
Then I think Europeans will be better off!

SASless
9th Dec 2011, 11:49
I knew the UK and Europe were trending towards "socialism" but to require every citizen to go out and get a License to fly helicopters is beyond anything I would have imagined!:uhoh:


This must be great for the CFI's out there....and the CAA Licensing folks!


As of April 2012...... every European Resident will have to have an JAA/EASA license then.

500e
9th Dec 2011, 13:24
Think you need to get out more SAS, the Commissioners do not take jokes lightly:D

206Fan
9th Dec 2011, 14:27
As of April 2012 this won't be possible anymore because every European Resident will have to have an JAA/EASA license then.
Hiller,

Didn't know that. When was that announced? Looks like the FAA Ticket will be getting converted over then!

birrddog
9th Dec 2011, 15:55
There was another thread a few weeks back, think started by nigelh on this.

I think we have until 2016 to fly on our FAA tickets for ppl(h) in England

I forget if there is a different date (earlier) on which we may fly G-Reg outside of England.

Gomrath
9th Dec 2011, 16:15
There is a very long discussion in the Private Flying forum going on for over a year regarding this.
http://www.pprune.org/private-flying/429675-easa-threat-operation-n-reg-aircraft.html

Plus another lengthy thread on the impact to the IMC rating once EASA take over the asylum.

500e
9th Dec 2011, 18:01
Been writing to my Euro MP for months :ugh:It hardly hurts anymore, promises to look at the problem & no more.