Virgin LAME EBA..Discussion

[ampclamp]

I have read an article regarding the basis for an EBA between VBA and its LAMEs.

Looking for any comments / discussion.

[another superlame]

You would think that Virgin watched the QF LAME dramas of 2008 with interest for their own EBAs. Surely they don't want to head down the same path with extended industrial action.

I believe the problem with VB is they want to play with the big boys but don't want to pay the costs associated with it, and frankly it doesn't always work that way.

VB have tried with some success to farm out the turnarounds at their major ports and all it does is cause more dramas to their engineering staff further down the track.

VB need to stop cutting costs with engineering and pay their people a decent payrise, as I know they get flogged well and truly for the money they earn. They are also trying to cut corners with the introduction of A licences, what a load of crap this is.

The only problem I see if the VB engineers went on strike is that VB management would have JHAS in their in no time to keep the place running.

This has already been mentioned in times past by a certain incumbent manager.

[ampclamp]

I read dsomewhere they have come to an in principle agreement.
10% over 3 years (?) extra payments for licences some leave changes etc.
It looked OK from outside and what you read aint always what you get.

Some mention of productivity trade-offs too and was wondering what they have proposed to trade off , if anything?

[greenslopes]

how can we comment if we cannot view said article?

[lordofthewings]

Is it true that new LAMEs coming into the system are on a lesser pay for the same ratings?

[ampclamp]

greenslopes, the article I read is in a workplace outside of virgin.I dont know if its factual or not. I chose not to be too specific.

I was looking for engineers from within the virgin group to comment on what maybe being put to them.

What they accept, lose or gain may have flow on effects for other workplaces.

lord of the wings , I dont know. Awards EBAs and some workplae agreements are in place. Some places pay more for years of service others not, just flat rates, some by how many current licences you have and also combos of the above.

[another superlame]

I think I hit a raw nerve.

I will correct the A licence statement by saying that VB are trying to introduce them, not that they have them right now.
Personally it would be a kick in the guts to want to work your way up to a B1 licence or full 737NG A/F ENG and only be offered an A licence. It might be a stepping stone to a full licence but most people on the floor think it would be the pinnacle of your career. Yes $145000 for dual licence is very good coin but what will A licence LAMEs earn?

And with the turnarounds being farmed out, well Pit Crew team members are doing it, and quite a few don't want the extra responsibilty for little or no extra payments. Also what happened to the casual labour that was being used in Sydney during peak times, that was a load of crap. And yes they may be trained by engineers but that doesn't make them engineers.

And about being flogged, well being understaffed and having more aircraft than people in your port on a nightshift, those aircraft more often than not have a few works orders to do on them plus 3-5 tows to stand off bays, followed by walking out the door 10-30 minutes after your shift has finished, to me that is being flogged.

Anyway..................

[GAFA]

At least when we had engineers meeting the aircraft on arrival in Sydney the NIGS in would always be on, now we have pit crew who seem to always be to busy to turn them on, or have no idea how to do it.

[Cactusjack]

another superlame,

I think I hit a raw nerve.


You sure did.But don't worry,NeedABiggerHammer always starts acting emotionally when one dares to question his precious DJ ! I think he is definitely not one of the 97% who have agreed to give JB a special welcome aboard present when he starts.

[ALAEA Fed Sec]

And a reasoned and educated response you will get. We will start with your so called facts.

FACT - Completely untrue - There have been no reported issues either through Safety Management Systems or AQD - All non engineering staff are trained by engineers and are bound by the same training rules and regulations as the engineers.


There have been a number of reported issues, don't lie and say there haven't been.

AME on tarmac in Mel walks past aircraft and notices a flat wheel. Required both on truck to be changed. Upon investigation pilot verbalised that he had noticed some pull to one side on his flight out of Launy but there was no engineer to report it to in mel.

Flt arrives in Drw, teenage baggage handler takes receipt, pax and crew get off, torrential downpour floods fwd galley and cockpit because he wasn't aware that the door should be closed. Engineer arrives some time later and notices the water pooled in areas such as the cockpit. reported? you bet. Engineer had his leave cancelled and ordered to Bne to explain why he had an argument with the outgoing crew because he wanted to delay the flt to check the viability of the electronic equip.

Flt Per-Adl. On arrival damage to fuse noticed that had been caused by ground equip most likely as it was being removed on previous dept.

I have reported a number of other issues directly to management at EA meetings.

to cont.

[ALAEA Fed Sec]

FACT - Single Cat Lame on NG737 earns $113000 - Well and truly flogged - No - Again no reports of any maintenance errors due to fatigue


No errors due to fatigue? Again a lie, maybe you remember this one. Lame in Syd required to certify for numerous unlicenced engineers on a particular night. Half a dozen log books thrown at him at the end of night shift to countersign (which should never happen in the fist place). Lame makes an error and forgets to sign an item.

He heads home and is called back to fix the problem after his finish time. He claims the approporiate overtime rate and you guessed it. Another disciplinary hearing because he claimed overtime to fix the error along the grounds of him being dishonest.

And you think you are all one big family. Every time you lie on here, punish one of my members unfairly and turn a blind eye to your safety obligations, it will come back and bite you. Better to do it now, in the press or at the negotiation table rather than after a million pieces of metal and flesh are being recovered from the side of a mountain.

[ALAEA Fed Sec]

FACT - Lame A Licence is a part of the new CASA Regulations which come into force in November. "A" Licence is used successfully all over the western world in fact VB alreay has A Licence Engineers in its Organisation - Perhaps if you know as much as you think you do about the current CASA Regs you might like to show us by telling me what engineers are currently using their A Licence at VB


So they come into force in Nov do they? Then you say that you have a number in the organisation already. Looks like a contradiction to me. Cat A licences are failing in Europe because no full LAMEs are being trained and there is a huge shortage of fully licenced engineers. The regs there are in the process of being ammended because of the failure of Cat A licences.

[ALAEA Fed Sec]

FACT - We had and still have 3 contingency plans that can be activated with 12 hours notice. JHAS was as you point out just 1/2 of one of them. Why would we let the engineers bring the airline to it's knees???


Contingency plans? Good luck. If our Association is mucked around at the negotiation table today when the words are being put to an agreement, you will need them.

Qantas had contingency plans as well. I was told they had 3 Billion to fight us. I responded that every one of our members has a pen and I would rather have the pens than 3 billion dollars (my wife may not agree).

So it cost them a reported 140 Million before they threw the towel in and we got the reasonable increase we asked for.

Our members have now agreed in principle to extremely fair terms. 4%, 3%, 3%. an extra weeks leave that still takes them to less then the ordinary Australian. Licence payments for licneces they attained for free some time ago. Payments for night shift in line with the old Ansett rates.

Again, you will need to come to the table today with your A game.

[ALAEA Fed Sec]

As for engineers carrying out Receipt and Despatch - Why the **** would we pay a Lame over $145000 to push back an aircraft whe he should be doing some value added role and not something beneath him..


5 LAMEs across the country will get this wage rate and you don't need them on pushouts. Maybe one of the 70 AMEs on less than 70K could do the job, after all they are on less than the baggage handlers.

And why would you use an Engineer on a pushout? I'm sure most crew here will have had some issue on pushback before and I suspect that many of them would prefer to be talking to an engineer. This may especially be the case if there is a tailpipe fire or hot start.

[ALAEA Fed Sec]

Pit Crew, Ground Ops, Engineers et al have to realise we are runing a business, not a social club.


Well you are running a business now. By continually de-skilling the workforce and running down the business like they did at Ansett, it won't last forever.

You appear to be oblivious to the small warning signs. The little issues that you say aren't there. Yes we have identified a number of them but it is the bigger underlying problems that go unnoticed that are of a greater concern.

Wake up and smell the roses bloke. Your social club will end if the business does and I suspect your social club is of a different nature to that of our members.

[another superlame]

Thanks for your input Fed Sec, I knew what I was on about but couldn't be bothered to argue with the troll.

[1746]

Nice work Fed Sec - well done!

[Short_Circuit]

You appear to be oblivious to the small warning signs. The little issues that you say aren't there. Yes we have identified a number of them but it is the bigger underlying problems that go unnoticed that are of a greater concern.
May I correct your statement and suggest that you replace "oblivious" with "conceal". I feel it may be more appropriate. ;)

[Kanga767]

Why the **** would we pay a Lame over $145000 to push back an aircraft

...because generally those LAMEs have 20 plus years of experience in Aviation and have developed the appropriate work ethic in that time to think quickly, anticipate a situation and double-check themselves in everything that they do.

K

[Darren Dunbier]

Need A Bigger Hammer,

See PM.

Darren Dunbier

[the rim]

i agree and this is what the association has been saying for years....only now we are together on this from all sides [thanks to your team....well some of them]sorry had to say that,if the travelling public dont know who is out there checking their aircraft then its up to our UNION to tell them.......thanks again and keep up the good work......regards "the rim"

[turbantime]

I would most certainly prefer an engineer on pushback as I'm sure most of my colleagues.

Had an incident with a fuel leak on startup, engineer had actually disconnected and as we were about to Taxi off he noticed fuel gushing out of #1 engine (so in his blindspot initially). He signalled to us that he wanted to re-connect (his headset) and advised us of the problem.

Now I don't know what the average baggage handler would have done but my guess is that he wouldn't have picked it up to start with and even if he did, my guess is that he would not have signalled to come back to the aircraft. Why do I say this? Because more and more us Pilots and Engineers are seeing this attitude of "not my problem". Luckily the two groups are professional enough to bring something to the attention of others....even if it means being effectively ridiculed by some 18 year old ground crew.

I know I changed the topic towards then end here a bit but man these people working in their offices in the village have absolutely no idea what goes on during day to day ops. The amount of times something is saved by having a skilled workforce is absolutely amazing.

So in short, our engineers are working too hard and deserve every ounce of respect towards their experience and qualifications earnt. I certainly don't want to have to deal with an issue upline just because we didn't have enough supervision of our AME's or whatever.

Good luck to you all! :ok:

[poacher2gamekeeper]

Hammer,

Alan (my mate from Dublin) asked me to pass on his everlasting thanks (or "tell dat hammer guy tanks a lot" if I am to quote him correctly).

If you are in the Charlie Q tribe (or even J*) can you come see Alan immediately for a big fat bonus in your next pay cheque. He seems "tink" he will recognise you a mile off.

Sorry, no job if you're not already in mate as he mentioned something about 'poison' in the very next sentence.

Incredible sabotage work nonetheless. A true artiste, for sure.

If you are in the DJ tribe, well..., no..., you couldn't be!!! could you???

Oh! and Alan said when you pop in to see him he would remind you of the old SAS maxim: Big Boys' Games, Big Boys' Rules. He said you would understand that given your military background.

Either way it seems, your reward is coming...and soon.

P2G

[ampclamp]

thanks turbantime.Nice to hear things like that.We aint perfect and have differing levels of observation etc but having people out there who know by experience & training when something looks, smells or sounds wrong must stop a few holes in the cheese lining up.


fed sec thank you for your input, I was hoping you'd drop by:cool: and thanks to bigger hammer ( whilst I do disagree with some of your assertions and points.) I have found out pretty much what I wanted after starting the thread.

[Cactusjack]

Hammer,

While I know you will bag the **** out of me again for this post, I would like to think you could give me a reasoned and educated response please.


Nope, you are incorrect in the assumption that 'I will bag **** the out of you'. Fed Sec and others in this thread took the words out of my mouth that I would have responded with. Fed Sec has responded factualy, intelligently and accurately - well done !
However, I must retort over this remark of yours-

We are not out to rape and pillage our people, lets face it, about 80% of DJ staff are very well paid and the others are well paid for what they do.


Now that is funny. I actually suspected you didnt have a sense of humour at one stage, but now I know you do !! I'm starting to like you !

[another superlame]

Bigger Hammer what has happened to your valuable contributions to this thread.
My guess is someone next to you in your Brissy hangar has told you to pull your head in.

Does anyone know how the negotiations are going? Hopefully something constructive and positive will come through soon.

[ALAEA Fed Sec]

Just to update the play.

Every day the parties have been talking to try and wrap up the words for an agreement. I am to hook up with management at 1330 this arvo and it appears that one outstanding matter remains.

For a job security clause we have been attempting to lock in minimum numbers on dayshift. The last matter is whether Syd numbers should be 11 (our position) or 10 (company position).

If this gets settled today, we will be moving to roadshows and a formal ballot within a couple of weeks.

cheers
Steve