Off to University for 3 years. Should I get my PPL?

[adam02]

Hey I will try and keep this short.

I am going to turn 21 years old in May and I have offers to study Mechanical Engineering at Queens Belfast University for 3 years, However i've recently been interested again in pursuing a career in commerical flying instead of an engineering position.

I've always been interested in flying since 9 and I have a small bit of RAF air cadet experience in a Grob G115 tutor when I was 15. Thoroughly enjoyed it.

I was completely put off from flying during GCSE's basically from the shear amounts of money it costs to train.

But i figure if I'm going to be doing something as a career it might as well be something I very much enjoy and will probably be willing to pay for it.

That being said, Ive searched and read and searched and read constantly for the last few days, I am aware of the current economic climate and there are very few if any positions for pilots and that recruitment won't be for a few more years.

So I decided that I will do this 3 year degree and also attend the gliding club in uni to beef up my flying then move into pilot training.

I haven't decided on Modular or Integrated, I could pull my hair out reading through all the threads on it but my main question is:

Should I do my PPL locally whilst at University. There is a local flying club that I could do my PPL at for around £6k which seems the norm.

Or Plan B:

Fork out loads of cash for "Integrated training purely because my friend says I would be more likely to get a job over a modular candidate"

*I don't buy this completely but I take what he's said on board*

Thanks. Any other feedback would be appreciated.

[RichardH]

Adam02 as you have already discovered LOADS of threads on this.

However, IMHO you should go off to Queens (excellent Uni) and gain your degree in ME. A good degree always opens doors and allows you to keep options open. Queens might even have access to a UAS. Even if they don't you can get your PPL at standard cost & minimum risk.

Once you have your degree and some work experience you shall still only be mid 20s, plenty of time to start your aviation career if you wish and at much less risk as you now have a fall-back position if the aviation market turns sour.

Going off on Plan B in the current market is HIGH RISK.
You do not want to be a 22 year old with no degree, no quality work experience, at least £70k in debt and no flying job either.

To anybody thinking of a career as a commercial pilot I strongly urge you to have a back-up plan.

[fabbe92]

I have never understood the degree-way. I am now doing my final year in upper secondary and I have excellent grades. That means that I can chooze between many universities and proffesions in the future. But why do the degree now? If one becomes a pilot and then something happens and he has to quit, he could allways go to university at that stage right?

[Sprogget]

Fabbe, I wish you all the best in your future endeavours, but I cannot thank you enough for all you have revealed to me in one post about the education system that I have long suspected but have hitherto been unable to confirm.

Godspeed my friend!:ok:

[AlpineSkier]

@ fabbe 92

That means that I can [/B]chooze [/B]between many universities and [/B]proffesions [/B]in the future. But why do the degree now? If one becomes a pilot and then something happens and he has to quit, he could [/B]allways [/B]go to university at that stage right?
Today 19:02


But presumably not English Language as a profession I think ? (my bold - or b brackets at least )

[Sprogget]

Awww, Alpine, I did it so much more nicerley!

Also, a comma between "stage" & "right" would help to place an appropriate emphasis on the flow of speech.

[adam02]

Thanks for the replies.

With regards to Queens, they have a gliding club:

Homepage (http://gliding.club.qub.ac.uk/)

Would it be advantageous to have decent gliding experience as far as seeking employment with an airline is concerned?

And from the aerospace department (same building as mechanical) they say that students have the option to undergo flight training. Pretty vague but I'l have to find out a bit more on that.

But yes as it stands the plan is to get the M.E degree, get some uni gliding in and get my PPL locally:

PPL Training (http://www.ulsterflyingclub.com/cms/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=49&Itemid=57)

then go into a modular course full time with the confidence and safety net of my degree.

I've yet to decide on an FTO but that's why I'm here.

The reading continues.

[fabbe92]

Yes I´m not perfect in english since it isn´t my native language. Would like to see how good you guys are in other languages, besides english.

[AlpineSkier]

My apologies Fabbe.

It didn't occur to me that you are not a native English-speaker as your English is very good and the errors are, in fact, exactly what I see from many posters here who are English mother-tongue.

Once again, mea culpa.

[Whirlygig]

If one becomes a pilot and then something happens and he has to quit, he could allways go to university at that stage right?Yes but it would be difficult.

Let's say pilot X is made redundant and loses his or her job after ten years flying for an airline. At this time, X has a family and a mortgage.

X needs to get another job straight away, not spend three years at university getting the qualification required. In addition, X finds it harder to study with family commitments and an ageing brain.

Therefore, I would recommend doing the degree now, while you're young and know everything rather than later.

Cheers

Whirls

[fabbe92]

Don´t worry, then I do have the tendency to be a bit sloppy when I write in forums, skipping commas and misspelling;) I guess I´m lazy.

[fabbe92]

Are their any good degrees in aviation that one could do. Because if pilots get reduntant, that means the holy industry is in a bad shape.

I am considering A degree or the bachelor in Aviation Management (London Met) or what about being a flight technician/engineer?

Cheers!

[Whirlygig]

If a pilot is made redundant because the aviation industry is in dire straits, then I'm not sure an Aviation Management Degree is any use at all. Aviation degrees may only be of any use if a pilot his or her licence for medical reasons.

Much better getting a degree relating to an entirely different industry. I'd recommend an insolvency qualification. :}

Cheers

Whirls

[wheelbrace]

Economics and philosophy are good numbers - learn about why we are in our current position and then know how to manipulate human nature to your advantage.

[adam02]

New question

I know it's preferable to do all of your CPL/fATPL training with one FTO from an employer's point of view.

And from what I gather they won't mind at all if you do your PPL locally:

But what about hours building? Would it be fine to go somewhere different for hours building?

Thanks.

[Aerouk]

I completed my PPL while at University, it was great fun I would highly recommend it.

[Sprogget]

Fabbe,
Je regrette, je vous en prie. je croyais que vous etiez Anglais. ;)

[Piltdown Man]

Do the degree, go gliding, have fun. Maybe even get a PPL AFTER you have graduated. Once you are qualified for something other than flying and are gainfully employed, look to see if there is a REAL shortage of low houred pilots. If you are still gliding then, I'll guarantee that there'll be a few airline pilots at the club, so you'll get an inside line. If there is a shortage (which I doubt), only then think about a career change, but certainly not before. Taking this line means that you'll have at least one bankable profession and a certainly a good looking CV for an airline. Starting along the airline route now will mean debt, unemployment and poor employability, no fallback position, rubbish CV, limited life experience and all in all, a pretty miserable life.

PM

[Matichk]

hi adam,
you're at exactly the same point i was when i was deciding between university and pursuing career straight from high school
well, at that point i talked to a commercial pilot and he said that even though there was shortage of pilots 4 years ago, i should get my degree and i could pursue my career after i get a degree, i took this advice and now i'm in last semester with what i think great career opportunities, i'm also studying ME (never to many of those :)) and i did my PPL 1 year ago, localy of course
well, my point is, i'm happy i went to university because now there isn't as big shortage of pilots as it was and i will always have something to fall back on if my career doesn't go as planned

so, go to university and than you can still be pilot or whatever you will choose to be after university

well, that's just my 2 cents :)

[fabbe92]

But wich degree? I have absoulutley no idea wich degree I want to get. It´s seems a bit strange for me to go to university for 3 years and study economics or engineering when i have absolutley no interest or motivation for it. I can only think of careers withina aviation and if I have to stop, I will sit down and make a decision that day. But choosing a degree now feels strange to me because I don´t have any interest or motivation for the degrees out there.

Should we just run off to the uni and get the first/best degree available? Sounds stupid to me.

[Matt101]

I have a friend who has a degree in Music and is now working in the Civil Service advising on Child Policy.

I have a further friend who has a degree in Italian who makes shed loads in Investment banking.

I have another who's degree is in something related to performing arts who works within a University marketing team.

Besides perhaps academia/engineering it is really a myth that a specific degree is necessary for many roles. The degree just gets you the interview in the first place.

Do something you are good at and something you enjoy (and is not too obscure).

[fabbe92]

I guess I´m fairly good in many things and can do well in many degrees but one thing that I am god at and the only thing that I truly enjoy, is aviation.

One thing I can think off is that I am very interested in aviation safety, phsycology and the knowlege around safety, cathastrophies and how human factors in emergencies etc. Are their any degrees in this, more related to the transport industry, naval and aviation?

[Laurence25]

Hey adam02 i was in the same situation. I'm just about to finish my second year of an accountancy degree (hopefully). I looked into a career in aviation when i was 20 but was put off by this very fickle industry. I thought I would bide my time and try to achieve a good degree. In my first year i started training for my PPL and logged 18 hours. The student loans come in very handy! All i will say is juggling the two can be hard. I haven't done any flying during term time because the amount of work and effort required for uni is more important. Luckily my last exam is on the 19th of this month and fingers crossed if the weather is good i can complete my flying hours during the summer. My next problem is trying to study for uni and the PPL exams. Personally i cannot do the two things at once. Your academic ability maybe a lot better than mine!

All the best

Laurence

[adam02]

but one thing that I am god at and the only thing that I truly enjoy, is aviation.
Did I just get thread hijacked by the god of aviation? :confused:

But seriously you shouldn't ask other people what degree you should do. You say the only thing you truly enjoy is aviation, that would lead anyone to believe that you would find any aviation related degree interesting and of value. Just do some personal research.

[Aerouk]

I guess I´m fairly good in many things and can do well in many degrees but one thing that I am god at and the only thing that I truly enjoy, is aviation.

How do you know your fairly good at most things? You're 18, you've done nothing to prove you are good at anything. You say you are good at aviation, again how do you know? There is a huge difference between having an interest and being good at something.

[fabbe92]

I think I´m good in aviation since I have around 55 flight hours and I had no problems with the PPL knowledge. I know it´s going to get harder with ATPL/IR etc but I found it easy to understand these subjects. Allso maths, physics etc. I´m not saying that I am good at everything, I am saying that I think I can perform like an average person in normal degree-courses. Better in some, than others.

Anyway, I´ve been searching around a bit for degrees in the area of aviation safety and the area wich I explained above, but I couldn´t find anything. Any ideas?

[Aerouk]

55 hours of flying is nothing, barely above the minimum hours to pass, the PPL knowledge is basic you don't do multiple choice questions at decent Universities.

When you've got years of experience and loads of hours then I'll listen to your self evaluation.

[Whirlygig]

In all fairness, Fabbe could well have the equivalent of high grade A Levels in some subjects and therefore it would not be unreasonable to say that he would be quite good in those subjects.

Fabbe, then do a degree in Maths or Physics - aviation degrees are no use to man nor beast in any other industry. You need to hedge your bets.

Cheers

Whirls

[fabbe92]

hmm, okey I think you have missunderstod me. I am not saying that I can fly the 747 or be an astronaout. I am saying that if I have good grades in the A-levels, have no difficulty with PPL, Physics etc, and I´ve passed apptitude tests for flight schools and the military, I think I can invest my mone in pilot training. Do you think that I should become an astronaut, Politician and Chief Doctor before I start thinking of aviation. The fact is that nobody can know for sure wether he will be sucessfull in a certain careerpath but with the A-levels and everything mentione above, I can see wich subjects I am better in and choose a career accordingly. Combined with my interest and motivation, I think I can be sucesfull in the ATPL etc, like many other. I am not saying that I can fly through it, I will have to work hard like everybody else. I am not going to sit at home for the rest of my life just because I have no experience and I can´t tell for sure how it will look in the end of university etc. No one can!

And thanks for the info Whirlygig, I will consider the options!

[Seabreeze]

There are are a lot of options and choosing the best for you depends on your skills and long term motivation.

There are full time aviation degrees that will train you to fly professionally as well as developing your maths skills to the level where you can do complex statistical tasks (such as analyse safety or economic data, or identify new route viability etc) as well as providing a good background in what makes an airline run. The advantage of an aviation degree is that it will allow you a much better chance to remain in the industry if you lose your medical.

One option on the other side of the world (Sydney) is at UNSW: see University of New South Wales - UNSW - Home (http://www.aviation.unsw.edu.au). This offers a fleet of new Diamond DA40s at a university which rates in the top 50 internationally (according to their website) and which includes a good swag of quantitative academic subjects.

[Groundloop]

aviation degrees are no use to man nor beast in any other industry.

I have to disagree. Sweeping statements like that help no one as you have not provided any supporting evidence for your obviously simplistic outlook on life (sorry to be so blunt).

As mentioned elsewhere above for a lot of good jobs it does not matter what degree you have, just having a degree (any degree) is required. Also if it has decent management content that can be applied anywhere.

Besides I know of a graduate from an aviation degree who is now earning a fortune as a paralegal advisor in aviation to a City law firm.

[lander66]

I have to agree with Groundloop, most jobs nowadays, it doesn't matter what degree you have. A degree just shows that you have some life experience and have the ability to learn and apply yourself. As most of us want to become pilots, I think that if you choose to do a degree, just do it because you enjoy the subject, not because you feel you have to for a potential "if everything doesn't work out" career.

Another point to consider is do you really want to have debts from uni when you are planning to start your flight training? Maybe if you have full financial support from your parents it doesn't matter so much but unfortunately most of us are not in that situation. I personally would love to skip a degree and go straight into work to save money for training; I know it is very risky though...

[Poeli]

You guys get in debt because of getting a degree? wow, here in Belgium we pay around 600€ per year + another 300 for books a year. And you can sell those to those who come behind you.:eek:

[lander66]

Alright for some :{

[adam02]

Ok I have my first lesson for my PPL next saturday.

Ive decided to buy a logbook.

AFE Professional Pilot Logbook £15.50 (http://www.flightstore.co.uk/afe-professional-pilot-logbook.asp/logbooks/ppllogbooks)

Is that appropriate in case of further post PPL training?

Also, what do you write for a 1 hour lesson?

Do you just simply put "1 hour" or do you have to specify time taken for taxiing and actual "in the air" time?

Thanks.

[Nine_Inch__Wings]

Wew, seems like you might need to start a new 'how to'' thread if you want to ask those sort of specific questions. I'm sure the logbook you get wouldnt matter an awful lot. It's the content that counts. Make sure it is nice and neat though. and use the same pen for all entries.

My 2c, in an area i feel myself quite experienced.

Finishing up a degree in Aviation in Brisbane. This gave me access to a government loan, and also an airline cadetship, which has been keeping me busy.

I believe getting a degree is worthwhile, and also enjoyable (uni life can be quite, hm, flexible), whilst providing the opportunity to meet new people in a good environment. I have learned a lot, and gained much from my experience.

In retrospect, I would have probably rather done a degree in another area to fall back on (it's only a few years, and you are still young). You have your entire life ahead of you.

Ofcourse, if you are a die-hard-wannabe-pilot, then start training now and harness that zeal.

It is a large investment, and should be well thought-out (something i can say i didnt do too much of during the beginning of my tertiary education).

As for fabbe - having good grades is a good beginning. I know, after getting a gilmpse at the many possibilities of study on offer out there, that i could have done a couple of other degrees that would have been very interesting and challenging. There is a lot of knowledge to be gained out there, and a lot of interesting areas in our world. Just have a browse, and see what you might like. Hell, if you try something and dont like it, you can just change degrees. I've had many friends change degrees many times, and have found something which they like. But, if aviation is really the only apple of your eye, then get into it!! Be careful though... as has been said previously, it is a very fickle industry.

Im in the thick of it now though, and owe a lot of money, so i will see this through to the end. not to mention i thoroughly enjoy it, despite the many pressures.

[fabbe92]

A degree in economics, politics or any other social area would be interesting to me because it increases my general knowledge and I believe it could help, develope me as a person. Because, if you skip uni and go directly into aviation, the only thing you know is how to drive a plane. It's fantastic but it's allso nice with some understanding of the things on the ground. However this is the only reason I can think of. If I loose my medical or get sick of being away from the family, a degree in aviation is something I could use. Because aviation is the thing I want to do.

Another thing is, that when I'm done with training at the age of 24, I will be jeallous at the guys whom allready have a couple of thousand hours, hehe.

[Nine_Inch__Wings]

This is true. The situation I am in now. But I hardly regret it.

To be honest, I don't know how far the degree in aviation will get you. Aviation isn't really a field that you can 'branch-out' an awful lot (unless into ATC, or engineering). The degree in my case, was purely out of interest, and to get funding from the government.

[fabbe92]

Another thing tjat has to be taken into consideration, is the economical climate. When speaking to pilots F/Is and experts, they say that now is a good time to slowly start with PPL etc. No rush they say, but try to be ready in 2012-2014 so you can jump on the boom-train. The fact is, that if I go to uni, wich will take me 2-4 years + 2 years pilot training, I risk stepping out into another meltdown, and end up sitting on my bottom for 10 years without a job.

What do you guys say about this risk?

[Celtic Pilot]

fabbe

a degree in aviation will give you as much chance at a job as a pilot!!.. Broaden your horizons, do something generic like Mechanical Engineering. Booms in Pilot recruitment have no known length of time so the calculation you have made of 2 years being the next boom is wrong! Yes there is a risk of when you start.

[fabbe92]

I am not going for aviation. I will do a degree in economics because it's interesting and I believe I could do well in it. I am doing it, because if I loose my medical, this is something I could work with. But I want to become a pilot! I am not willing to risk my career just so I can go to uni and then end up doing a job I don't like. Flying is what I want to do and a degree is only a security to a possible medical loss.

[ba038]

Just have the feel to add in my view here.

Ive always wanted to be a pilot however i have thought with my brain and not my heart in my circumstance.

Ive taken the degree route currently at UCL studying maths and physics,after the degree i will go into flight training.

My advice will be just take it easy you have a long time to pursue an aviation career.And the way things are in the industry people with licenses whom cant find a job wish they stayed well clear of the industry until the economy started to pick up.And the wannabes like me cant wait to jump in.So all in all its a different story for us wannabes on the other side.

Your better of paying 5k to a group of aviation experts to predict when the aviation industry is going to pick up rather than gambling 60k.

On the other hand to get your mind on set on things start doing some flying lessons and see how you feel.If you've got the true passion you WILL love it.

Anyway best of luck!:cool:

[fabbe92]

I have My PPL and around 55 hours. I've loved it since I was a little kid and I still do. I have one year left in upper secondary so I've got one year left to decide.

[Groundloop]

Broaden your horizons, do something generic like Mechanical Engineering.

There is nothing "generic" about a Mechanical Engineering degree - and it's bl**dy hard work (as are all proper engineering degrees)!

[adam02]

Generic doesn't necessarily mean easy- I think he meant Mechanical Engineering is such a diverse subject it can open so many doors.

[ba038]

fabbe92


Head to uni you will gain many skills and i tottally understand where your coming from about having a degree as a security if you loose your medical and have a mid-life crises.

[Groundloop]

Generic doesn't necessarily mean easy-

I didn't take generic to mean easy. What I meant in my post is that Mechanical Engineering is actually a specialised degree, not a generic degree.

And I just added that it was a very hard degree ie don't do it just for the sake of doing it. Do it because you REALLY want to do it, otherwise it could be three/four years of hell!

[lovezzin]

Mechanical Engineering is not "Generic", but im uncomfortable to call it "specialised".

My understanding is that there is a large focus on general 'Mechanical' Engineering principles/diciplines with minor modules in specialised fields. It is a lot more broad than the likes of Aeronautical/Automotive Engineering, both of which fall under the category of "Mechanical Engineering", yet are clearly more specialised in the Aero/Auto fields as the whole course is focused on it from day one.

Mechanical Engineering could possibly on be accredited by IMechE, Aero is usually acredited by both IMechE AND RAeS. Best of both worlds :ok:

There are as many Mechanical Engineers as there are Aerospace/Aeronautical Engineers at my aerospace employer. That said, mechanical folk seem to be stuck in structural departments but aero folk seem to have more choice/flexibility! - As it should be (in my opinion). If you are definately going to study Engineering and you are passionate about aircraft, why would you study Mechanical Engineering as opposed to Aero? Both are very hard degrees, but Mechanical makes no sense to me is Aerospace is your goal!!

[Seabreeze]

Fabbe92,

Your posts show a good degree of uncertainty, and you are wise seeking other views, but in the end there are always pros and cons.

A degree in economics will provide you a good grounding in economic matters, and of course a fall-back position if you lose your medical. But it doesn't provide any further foundations for physics and engineering, which are very useful as a background to ATPL, and also as a background to understanding the high tech bit of kit known as an aeroplane.

There are many possible academic backgrounds to be a pilot:
* degrees in science or engineering (generally you will learn good tech skills and an ability to think in a structured way),
* specific degrees in aviation (where you learn some aviation specific economics, some physics and some engineering tailored toward aviation),
* specific degrees in aeronautical/aerospace engineering (where you get an excellent background in the technical aspects of aeroplanes, but no economics),
* specific degrees in economics (where you will learn macro and micro, and how the world of money turns: but probably do very little airline economics unless you choose your university carefully. Beware it is these guys that brought us the GFC).

In the end, it is not wise just to do a degree as an insurance, instead I recommend that you do one that you will find interesting. A 3 or 4 year degree in something you don't like will be no fun, and you may well not even finish. You need to wake up each day and look forward to your day, whether it may as an undergraduate, or later as a professional pilot or airline executive.

I further suggest therefore that you look very closely at the detail of possible degree options, including the summaries of ALL the offered subjects, to see which best interests you. The same degree title offered at different universities often has different options and specialities.

Also the better universities usually have higher entrance levels, harder subject materials, and higher standards, but this is why they are better universities.

[fabbe92]

Well, the engineering degrees prepares you for ATPl but it's not for me. I ammors interested in economics,poltics and all that. I am better at it as well. Because maths and physics aren't my favorite subjects. I have no problem learning maths and physics and combined with my love and motivation, I am not worried about the ATPL. However, engineering is a bit to much since I don't have that interest. No degree can be as exciting as aviation though. However a feel that a degree in a more social related area, will give my experience, better knowledge about the world and help me develope. Because a pilots education means that you can fly from A to B and that's it. No academic skills on the ground

[lander66]

Your posts show a good degree of uncertainty

I personally wouldn't say taking Uncertainty at University would count as a good degree...

Sorry couldn't resist. :O

[fabbe92]

A good university education in Europe costs around 15K, am I right? So that increases the debts even more.

[lander66]

Yes it is a lot of money but for some reason people don't seem to take that into account. There is very little talk about university debts on this site. Especially as at the moment graduates are ending up with jobs which don't need a degree because of the lack of work going around.

I know a degree gives you more security for your future career as a pilot but I think it sets you back a few years not only because of the time spent in uni but because of the debts you have afterwards (in the UK), not ideal. However other countries might have fairer governments who help to fund your degree which makes it a much more attractive offer.

[BHenderson]

Degree in the UK will leave you with ~£7k per year of government debt (split evenly between tuition and maintenance loans). Probably the reason it is not talked about, is because it is the cheapest loan you'll ever get. Interest rates in 2009 were 1.5%, which in real terms was 0%. There is talk of charging a 'proper' rate of interest and increase fees, so best to apply sooner rather than later.

£3.5k per year of free money, spent wisely, would easily fund a PPL and some hour building.

I can tell you from personal experience that a teenager in the cockpit is frowned upon by the majority of people you come across - be it fellow pilots or passengers. People work on first impressions, and it is a real struggle to convince them that you are capable of safely operating an aircraft. Put yourself in the shoes of an employer; are you going to hire the 19 year old with no proven life skills, or a 23 year old that has been to university and gotten a job afterwards to pay for (or at least contribute towards) their training? I know which I'd choose! As a passenger, who would you choose?

As Seabreeze has said, you will only finish a degree that you are interested in and have a motivation to continue.

[Aerouk]

Degree in the UK will leave you with ~£7k per year of government debt (split evenly between tuition and maintenance loans).

Only in England and Wales.

I studied at one of the best Universities in the UK and didn't pay a penny for it.

[lovezzin]

I studied at one of the best Universities in the UK and didn't pay a penny for it.

Yes good for you, bloody Scots :} haha. When you are talking "one of the best" I assume you are talking about Edinburgh...

I was semi-lucky too as I was the last year group that had Fee's capped at £1250/yr!

£3.5k per year of free money, spent wisely, would easily fund a PPL and some hour building.

No Way José!! Have you been/completed Univerìsity? Without a Parents allowance you wont be able to fund a PPL on that cash!! On top of that, if you dont spend money on Beer and girls, you wont enjoy University at all!! If you go to Univeristy, lock yourself in your dorm like an introvert, and 'ride it out' to get the degree paperwork, I admire your strength...But feel sorry for you...leaving University with no friends or nor experiencing real university life!!

A good university education in Europe costs around 15K, am I right?

No. Depends on your course length (3/4 yrs). Do you have crap A-levels and need an additional foundation year? I found Univeristy to be very expensive. My Parents paid my fee's, accomodation and gave me a food allowance. I also took the full student loan, of about £12,000 and rinsed through the whole lot...am I a moron? YES. Especially when the Uni Flying club had hourly lessons for £80!!But i had some hell of a good times to look back on :ok: but in general for 3 years i would estimate:

Fees: £10,000 (or best part of)
Accomodation: £10,000-£12,000 (or best part of)
Food/Life: £7500 (£2500/yr)

Total: £27,000 - £30,000 :eek:

[Poeli]

lol, without living costs and books university costs around 550€ here a year. If you calculate 800€ in total a year you're fine here. 800*5 years makes 4500€.

[lovezzin]

lol, without living costs and books university costs around 550€ here a year. If you calculate 800€ in total a year you're fine here. 800*5 years makes 4500€.

€800 a year TOTAL?? thats crazy cheap...but i suspect you do the typical european thing of going to your local University and living at home? that's not typically practised here in the UK. We generally move away from home so that's why it is more expensive.

[Groundloop]

lol, without living costs and books university costs around 550€ here a year. If you calculate 800€ in total a year you're fine here. 800*5 years makes 4500€.

You can live on 250 Euros a year?!!

[Poeli]

Oh ok I see, yes but Belgium is that small that if you take the train, you're practically at a university in one hour:)
If you calculate living costs for 5 years it would also be around 20k€ in total...

[lander66]

Put yourself in the shoes of an employer; are you going to hire the 19 year old with no proven life skills, or a 23 year old that has been to university and gotten a job afterwards to pay for (or at least contribute towards) their training? I know which I'd choose! As a passenger, who would you choose?


BHenderson,

This is not what the situation would be for me. There is no way i will be ready for airline employment by the time I am 19! I will have to work and do the training modular. It may take me until I am 25 to be ready for an airline job (or any flying job at that)... Also I would have paid for my training without assistance. I think that sounds like life experience to me, maybe not pleasant, but real. Doing a degree would only set me back 3/4 years and I could very well end up with a job at the same level as I could have got with just A levels. You hear of graduates working in local shops, supermarkets etc due to the recession. The degree therefore wouldn't have helped. On top of that I would have to pay off my uni debts, however low the interest rates are that could be around £20-25K.

I do however accept that in terms of security a degree is ideal and that Uni would be good fun, but I don't think that it would help me to get a flying job, it would simply be there just in case professional flying is unattainable. Lets face it airlines, don't care whether you have a degree, as long as you have done something with your life and you can show your passion for flying!

[BHenderson]

You hear of graduates working in local shops, supermarkets etc due to the recession. The degree therefore wouldn't have helped.I don't think this is unique to graduates. Anyone with little experience will struggle to find a well paid job to start - especially in a recession.

Lets face it airlines, don't care whether you have a degree, as long as you have done something with your life and you can show your passion for flyingGAPAN did a survey a few years ago and rated skills as follows:

1st Team working skills
2nd Aircraft handling
3rd Leadership
4th Personality
5th Customer awareness
6th Technical knowledge
7th Education
8th Presentation and appearance
9th Previous employment
10th Family background

It made the following key points:
Low-hour pilots will have to complete a jet introduction course.
Airlines commonly require university entrance level education.
Most likely age range for being offered a job is 20-30 years old.
Some airlines express concern that many new pilots lack knowledge of commercial operations and the realities of the airline career.Previous employment is not ranked highly.

Ref: PilotWeb (http://www.pilotweb.aero/content/articles/view_article.aspx?id=3346)

[lander66]

Airlines commonly require university entrance level education

Thanks for sharing the article, it has some useful information. However the article states that airlines prefer you to be at "university entry level" which means that you need A levels. It states nowhere that airlines prefer degree holders. Either you misread the article or misunderstood me, I do have A levels so I meet these demands. I do accept that having a degree can only improve your chances, but not by a lot, especially if you have other valuable life experience such as a full-time job.

I don't think this is unique to graduates. Anyone with little experience will struggle to find a well paid job to start - especially in a recession.



Yes that is what I meant, sorry if I wasn't clear, often happens when I ramble :). What I meant was having a degree in the current economic situation is not very useful because there aren't many current vacancies which require a degree. Most jobs do not require a degree and therefore graduates and school leavers will both be applying for the same jobs.

[Aerouk]

Yes that is what I meant, sorry if I wasn't clear, often happens when I ramble http://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/smilies/smile.gif. What I meant was having a degree in the current economic situation is not very useful because there aren't many current vacancies which require a degree. Most jobs do not require a degree and therefore graduates and school leavers will both be applying for the same jobs.

Sorry, but that's nonsense.

Student's are struggling because there are just far too many of them with little experience of the industries they are entering, decent Universities prepare you well for the industry you are entering.

A lot of my friends are Aero Engineering graduates who have all ended up with pretty snazzy jobs earning them on average about 30k, which is an excellent wage when you're 21-30.

I was working with a huge Spanish company while at University earning the same money as my full time friends. I ended up working in China during my 3rd year to attract top Chinese students to the UK (which was superb, Chinese girls love the Brits by the way!)

[BHenderson]

None of my comments are aimed at you lander66, they are just musings for everyone to think about.

My question is: Can you get a meaningful, well-paid job, where you gain the skills that the GAPAN survey highlights, without a university education, and before you're middle-aged?

I also don't think the target of 50% of school leavers going to university has been dropped. A degree is fast becoming the required level of education.

[lovezzin]

I think that having a University education will improve your chances greatly over someone who does not hold a degree. This is just my opinion as my human nature is that if I had 2 candidates, the degree holder always wins!!

It is only those who are less than middle-aged and dont have degrees that bang on about them not being important. a degree is the norm now, as were A-levels in the generation before that and then GCSE equivilants in the generation before that!! Just the way it goes!

It would be interesting to see what % of those starting training do hold degrees...i believe the majority going Integrated do!

My question is: Can you get a meaningful, well-paid job, where you gain the skills that the GAPAN survey highlights, without a university education, and before you're middle-aged?


I would say yes, Most Engineering Graduate schemes give you opportunities in each field...obviously except Aircraft handling! My Job certainly does!! Even aircraft handling from the theoretical side of things :P

What I meant was having a degree in the current economic situation is not very useful because there aren't many current vacancies which require a degree.

Yes there is...there is plenty. Plentiful jobs for those with Degrees of more classical disciplines. Its the ones with the mickey-mouse BA's from no-name University who end up in the Chip-shop/ASDA down the road...a degree is not simply a degree....there is so much range in the values of degrees in different subjects and from different universities. Generally, any degree that has entrance requirements of minimum 300 UCAS points are worth the paper they are written on.as the points requirement represent the quality of University and Quality/difficulty of degree. Sorry if your didnt, and there ARE exceptions to this rule, but generally speaking!! sorry if this offends anyone... :oh:

[fabbe92]

When looking back at my schoolyears from elementary up to upper secondary, I can say that I find it very easy to understand and get good grades in social subjects and languages. Therefore I believe I would do best in a social degree like economics, business and so on. But after researching a bit I believe that an aeronautical engineering degree would be something usefull if I loose my medical. I believe it would be interesting and I have no problems with motivation or discipline. The only thing is that I am not very good at maths and physics. No problems passing and I know that I can do well in the ATPL. I just have to put in more effort.

But can I study and do well in an aeronautical engineering programe if I don´t have that natural connection to those subjects. Can one make it with motivation, discipline and by studying your ass off?:}

[hugel]

I personally wouldn't say taking Uncertainty at University would count as a good degree...

Sorry couldn't resist. http://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/smilies/embarass.gifI would: reliability, safety, statistics even economic prediction all depend on managing uncertainty although you probably have to wait until MSc level to make it your specialist subject....

My advice is get a degree in a subject you enjoy that is not too esoteric, that either interests you or has some relevance to the direction you want to take. Your priorities will change, even if your love of aviation doesn't.

hugel

[BHenderson]

If you're not any good at maths or physics, then trying to do an engineering degree would not be wise. Don't let yourself be defined by aviation. It should only form part of your life and not be your life.

[adam02]

Thought I would update this diary style.

Here we go:

University wise - I finished my National Diploma in Engineering after requesting back a lot of year 1 work (2 year course) to redo to bump up my grades.

I busted my ass off and pulled some strings and got the grades needed to meet my conditional offer for Queens to do Mechanical Engineering, Happy as larry!:}

Flying wise - About a month ago I did my first official PPL lesson in a Cessna 172SP-G1000 up at the Ulster Flying Club, Newtonards.

Wow, what a day. Took my ma and m8 up in the back.

My instructor is cool.. He sat me down and asked me what I had done before aviation wise:

I told him I did about 30 minutes in a grob tutor, but honestly everything I know has come from FSX.

He whipped out a small wooden RC sized plane with working control surfaces

"Whats that" he pointed, I said Ailerons etc. He was happy enough and he knew that I knew the very basics at least.

So he turned round and said:

"Ok adam, I dont want to sit here and talk to you about whats going to happen, Id rather we get you in the aircraft and do it and go from there..."

Direct style I thought:

He then said "You're going to take off"

I laughed, My m8 (who needed convinced that flying was safe before hand looked ill).

So basically he talked me through the take off.

"Ease the throttle to full...Ok know at about 55 knots we get V1(cant remember) pull back on the controls".

Not a huge deal in hindsight but that's the kind of instructor he is, He throws you out of your comfort zone and tests you and see's how you react.

After talking with some of the staff and some other student pilots afterwards, they recommended That I take my lessons in the 152 as it was more back-to-basics and properly bare bones instead of the whole garmin GPS thing. and great to learn in, also way cheaper.

Last saturday I did just that, Myself and my instructor showed me a how to do a walk around and check for fuel, oil, all that jazz.

"Alright adam, Time to get in, hop into the left hand side there.."

I clambered into what I consider to be a cereal box. I'm not a big guy by any means but width wise me and the instructor were Siamese twins by the shoulders.

I'm not complaining, I love it. I was anxious at first because of how old it looked and how worn some of the interior was-

Chunks out of landing struts, cracked door panels, Control stick held together with cables ties, but it's still work horse of a plane as soon as we were up!

It was lesson #2 and we did straight and level. It wasn't easy I have to admit because of the turbulence and gusts but overall it went Ok.

Next comes the curve ball again from Mr. Brown.

"Ok Adam, were going to do an overhead join, which is the easiest and safest way to join traffic."

He then told me to fly a small circuit around the airport and get down to about 1,000 ft etc.

At that point I thought ok im going to fly around descending to 1,000 then he will "Have control", land it then I can go get a chicken fillet burger.

That was not the case.

Coming up to 1,000ft, he talks to the tower, "cleared to land"

he then says "OK Adam, bring back throttle and reduce airpspeed to about 65 knots for approach."

Me - "okie dokie.."

Im thinking , any minute now Il have to say "you have control"

We get to 65 knots and were at about 1000 feet coming into the last turn of the circuit for final approach.

"Ok adam, add 1 stage of flaps"

"Erm...Ok.." I said nervously.

He then tells me, "You're going to land."

"I turn my head sharply at him with a sorta "whatchoo talkin bout" glare"

He laughs.

"Dont worry, il talk you through it, add second stage of flaps, now final stage.."

We approach runway 04, which gets closer and closer, with my hands on the controls and his on his lap, I got nervous but adamant.

"OK maintain that attitude and let the plane come down"

We were about 50 feet off the ground at which point it got hazy and I can't fully recall what happens

All I can remember is the plane flares and he tells me to reduce throttle all the way.

I just pulled it straight out fast! BUMP!

The plane just dropped onto the runway, nothing serious, but I was startled:

my instructor seems fine

"Sorry..." I said.

he laughs- "For what?"

"I didn't think it would drop. I thought it would just glide like in FSX" I exclaimed.

he laughs again. - "Yes that was probably my fault, I meant to tell you to reduce throttle slowly, but you did good, not bad for your first landing, your over head join was spot on, you done it before?"

"Nah.." I replied. I felt warm and fuzzy inside, slightly disappointed with the bump, but overall pleased.

He explained to me that, throttle changes on landing will be more apparent because of the flaps getting most of the lift from the prop etc. Lesson learn't.

I'm very happy so far with my PPL training, I love the club and the environment.

I can book my lessons with any instructor but I've decided to stick to with the same guy throughout my PPL journey.:ok:

That's 2 hours now in my big black Jeppeson Pilot log book.

The novelty of filling it in ever so carefully hasn't worn off yet.

Writing in "EGAD" takes me a good 6 seconds of careful precise writing- Let's hope it stays that way for a long time. :)

[Katamarino]

and use the same pen for all entries

Oh dear, now I'm in trouble. Over my 500ish hours, I have used several different pens, occasionally even veering recklessly from black to blue and then back again. Has my time all been in vain? :{

[Poose]

Adam02,

Just been reading your thread. You're going in the right direction...

It seems to me that a lot of people fail to realise that if you have a VALID qualification which is RELEVANT to your final career goal that you aren't doing anything wrong. My advice is to use the 'cheap' money that you have access to as a Student to get your PPL and hour build. Enjoy the flying and use the degree to attain a 'decent' job, ideally something relevant that will assist you in getting towards the Flight Deck.

Back in 2006 when I graduated in Mechanical Engineering I had two job offers within twelve months. Police Officer or Aeronautical Engineer. Both had comparable salaries, one was local and the other entailed a lengthy commute. Much as I wanted to crack skulls and eat doughnuts I had to decline my offer of a post in the local Constabulary as it was entirely irrelevant to my final goal. I took the engineering job and have made many useful contacts and friends off the back of that decision. My company even has it's own airline and flying club...
My current role has me laising with the Test Pilots of a large aircraft on a daily basis and being directly involved in the production of the Aeroplane Flight Manual and Operating Data Manual. It's very useful to be dealing with things in your day job that will directly help you in the future. Indeed, a lot of the ATPL content that I've covered so far, I had a greater understanding than that required because of my job.

In essence... You're doing the right thing and as a result will have a surer footing and healthier CV than some rich 19 year old with a fat wallet.

It's working for me! :ok:

[adam02]

Excellent insight Poose, thanks.