Initial Command Instrument Rating on Two Crew Aircraft

[A37575]

Hypothetical question. If a CPL pilot obtains his initial issue command instrument rating in a two-crew certified aircraft type eg Saab 340, Dash 8, A320 etc, - does this also automatically qualify him to to fly in command single pilot IFR in (say) a Duchess, Chieftain etc if he has never previously flown a single pilot (ME) type before? Or is he required to undergo a single pilot (ME) additional instrument rating test?

[Lasiorhinus]

Provided you meet the requirements of CAO 40.2.1 para 11.5 for single-pilot IFR recency, and hold an endorsement on the aircraft (eg BE76) in question, then you're fine. A Command instrument rating is different to a Copilot instrument rating.

[apache]

not entirely sure that that is true!

Some airlines have approvals to issue command instrument ratings which are TYPE and SEAT specific. as well as ONLY being able to be used when flying for that airline.

The company I work for make that point every time, and say that if I were to go and fly privately, then I would need to do another CIR.

[Dehavillanddriver]

If it is an Australian company then they are yanking your chain.

[Artificial Horizon]

Yep, that sounds like rubbish, if you have a MECIR on you licence and you are rated on the appropriate aircraft then you can use the instrument rating assuming you are current. Airline specific....... rubbish:}

[White and Fluffy]

Did you hold a command endorsement on the aircraft type? If not then you would have only been issued a co-pilot instrument rating and hence can not fly as pilot in command under IFR, so no single pilot flying.

[scavenger]

Provided you meet the requirements of CAO 40.2.1 para 11.5 for single-pilot IFR recency

You would also need to meet the recency requirements of para 11.3 (i think), which covers all IFR flights, including single pilot.

1 hr IF ICUS in an aeroplane with one approach is the minimum time that satisfies both para 11.3 and 11.5, assuming no flight simulator is available.

[Lasiorhinus]

scavenger, you are correct. It's paragraph 11.2, by the way.

I made the assumption (naughty me!) that the OP was regularly flying the aforementioned 2-crew aircraft.

[Tempo]

Some airlines have approvals to issue command instrument ratings which are TYPE and SEAT specific. as well as ONLY being able to be used when flying for that airline

Never heard of that one and I doubt very much it could be true. If it's on your CASA licence with no other remarks or exceptions then you are free to exercise the privilege of that licence/rating. TYPE and SEAT have no relevance.

This is of course assuming it's an Australian licence. I do not know of the requirements of other states ratings.

[neville_nobody]

If this is in reference to a cyclical training program I think that is correct and if you resign from the company then your instrument rating is no longer valid.

Not sure about it being seat specific though. If you get a command instrument renewal then that is valid for all aircraft you are type endorsed on.

I recall there being something somewhere in the CAO's on it.

[apache]

I can't seem to load the page, but I THINK, under CAR217 training organisations, that your CIR is only valid for that airline.

[maverick22]

I can't seem to load the page, but I THINK, under CAR217 training organisations, that your CIR is only valid for that airline.

Not the case i believe. There is nothing in the regs that says this, as far as I can see.

I think Neville is right, as long as you are a current employee and participating in your company's CAR 217 check and training program, then your CIR is current.

As per CAO 40.2.1:

12.1 A grade of instrument rating must be renewed for a period of 12 months from the date of its expiry if:
(a) its holder passes the instrument rating test applicable to the renewal of the grade of rating within the last 90 days before the grade of rating is due to
expire; or
(b) its holder:
(i) is employed by, or working under an arrangement with, an operator
who has a cyclic training and proficiency program that:
(A) meets the requirements of Appendix V; and
(B) is approved under regulation 217; and
(ii) is a participant in the program; and
(iii) met the standards required by the program in the last session of the
program that he or she attended.

The logbook endorsement issued by my company reflects this, as it basically says i have a valid MECIR, so therefore I should be able to exercise the privileges of that rating?

[Icarus53]

Depending on exactly how the cyclic program is administered, most involved issuing the CIR annually providing you are a successful participant in the program. My IR is automatically reissued and my license says it is valid for a full 12 months - CASA have no reason to retract a rating on the basis of your employment.

On that basis, you are able to exercise the privileges of the rating as long as it is valid (even if you no longer work for the company).

On the other hand, the cyclic program also covers certain elements of recency, which would obviously lapse as soon as you cease being a participant in the program ie - you cannot leave the company and fly a VOR approach in IMC unless you have actually flown one in the previous 90 days.

[neville_nobody]

You can have systems where you never actually do a renewal per se, just 3 checks a year, in that instance your instrument is invalid once you resign.

If you company actually does a 'instrument rating' check and treats it as a renewal then that's just as per normal and your rating will be current for 12 months.

Hypothetical question. If a CPL pilot obtains his initial issue command instrument rating in a two-crew certified aircraft type eg Saab 340, Dash 8, A320 etc, - does this also automatically qualify him to to fly in command single pilot IFR in (say) a Duchess, Chieftain etc if he has never previously flown a single pilot (ME) type before? Or is he required to undergo a single pilot (ME) additional instrument rating test?

To answer the original question no you can fly single pilot IFR even if your rating was in a multi crew aeroplane, however you have to be IFR current so your 3 hours IF has to be in your type of operation. So if you do 3 hours IF in a SAAB then go jump in a Kingair you may not be IF current

[Tempo]

You can have systems where you never actually do a renewal per se, just 3 checks a year, in that instance your instrument is invalid once you resign.


Ok then....where is that written in the regs?? I have never heard of this and I think that this is totally incorrect.

I participate in a cyclic training/checking program and do 3 cyclics/year. Yes...I don't do a 'renewal' as such as all the items of the renewal are included in the Matrix of the program. During my 3 checks/year I complete all the items on the CIR renewal form. NOWHERE is it written on my licence that I must be employed by my company to exercise the rating. I have never heard of anyone having such a restriction in Australia.

As I said.....show me where it says in the regs that I have to remain employed by the company to use my rating. If it's there then I will gladly eat humble pie. Surely there are enough people reading this thread to cover all the airlines in Australia. Anyone got such a restriction?

On the other hand, the cyclic program also covers certain elements of recency, which would obviously lapse as soon as you cease being a participant in the program ie - you cannot leave the company and fly a VOR approach in IMC unless you have actually flown one in the previous 90 days.

This is correct and I think this is where the confusion is coming from.

[Feather #3]

Several of us who've recently retired from airline flying have gone through the process of transferring from a CAR217 program to normal GA IR requirements.

The smart ones make sure that their CIR is valid well beyond retirement and then after that first renewal, simply revert to normal.

Recency certainly becomes an issue, but that's another story!

G'day ;)

[neville_nobody]

As I said.....show me where it says in the regs that I have to remain employed by the company to use my rating

I think you will find that your rating will expire on resignation as you are no longer a participant in the program as per clause ii in CAO 40.2.1

So I would suggest that if you resigned and didn't join another airline you would have to go and do a renewal with an ATO to be able to exercise your rating. In reality most guys are airline pilots are always in a airline so this probably isn't encountered very often. If you resigned and joined another airline your rating will just be renewed under their system, whatever that is.


CAO 40.2.1:

or
(b) its holder:
(i) is employed by, or working under an arrangement with, an operator
who has a cyclic training and proficiency program that:
(A) meets the requirements of Appendix V; and
(B) is approved under regulation 217; and
(ii) is a participant in the program; and
(iii) met the standards required by the program in the last session of the
program that he or she attended.

[Feather #3]

Perhaps, Neville, you didn't read my post just above yours, so let me repeat for some clarity and put it another way.

As Nev notes, you have to do all those things, however the rating has a validity period. When that is coming up for expiry, you have to renew it. If you are in a CAR217 program, the company automatically renews it for 12 months and you do what ever that program requires.

Once you leave that company, the IR is still valid until it expires, THEN you have to do the ATO renewal bit.

G'day ;)

[neville_nobody]

Again that would depend on what sort of system your airline runs. I would suggest that your airline run instrument rating test which then gave you a 12 month time frame.

What we're talking about with Tempo is not doing a IR test just sim 3 times a year, where your IR just rolls on, and is only valid until your next sim.

If Tempo fails a sim then his IR is then no longer valid.

In other airlines your IR test is separate to your sim and you could fail a sim for some reason but your IR is still valid.

[Cypher]

As I said.....show me where it says in the regs that I have to remain employed by the company to use my rating. If it's there then I will gladly eat humble pie. Surely there are enough people reading this thread to cover all the airlines in Australia. Anyone got such a restriction?

Well I got a restriction on my renewals, only I'm working for a NZ company with both CAA/CASA approvals and licenses.. (that oughta give it away..)

We've been told that the instrument renewal done in the sim is only good for company operations, and not private ops i.e I can't go and legally fly IFR in a Duchy on the weekends.

Having talked to an airline inspector at CAA, this is because the "Director of CAA" has approved a specific training program that is applicable only to the airline that holds the training program.

I've been told by the company the same applies for my CASA license as well.

Sorry I can't find the CAA rule, but we all know how CAA/CASA love to make rules up on the spot.... :E

No consumption of humble pie required..

[404 Titan]

Cypher

I can’t speak for the Kiwi part of the licence but for the Aus licence, if there is a restriction it will be stated in your licence after you have done your renewal. If there isn’t a restriction then what you are being told by your employer is BS. You can use your rating as you choose up until it expires as long as you meet single pilot currency and approach requirements.

[Centaurus]

Question. I was informed by a current airline pilot of one of the major domestics, that the renewal of the command instrument rating in her company does not require the usual question and answer session prior to the actual IR test, such as flight time limitations, other CAO relevant to instrument rating renewals, Jepps current, and all those list of things needed ticking off on the back page of the Application for Instrument Rating Test Form.

Obviously if that knowledge is considered by CASA to be unnecessary in the case of airline pilots, why is it considered an important and legal part of the instrument rating renewal for a general aviation pilot?:confused:

[404 Titan]

Centaurus

That sought of stuff is usually covered in the annual line check.

[c100driver]

Part 121.607


each pilot acting as a flight crew member of an aeroplane operating under IFR has, within the immediately preceding 6 months, passed a check that is administered by a flight examiner and that—
(i) covers procedures, including emergency procedures, appropriate to the equipment fitted to the aeroplane and to the type of operations to which the pilot is assigned by the certificate holder; and
(ii) is conducted in the same aeroplane type used by the pilot in the operation or in a flight simulator of the same aeroplane type; and

Part 61.807


(5) if conducting an IFR operation under the authority of an air operator certificate issued in accordance with Part 119, satisfied the IFR competency requirements in Part 121 or 125 as appropriate.

In NZ if you work for a company with AOC under part 119 you complete a competency check. By definition it is not an Instrument Rating flight test as it does not usually include all the mandatory elements for the IR flight test. It does include items that are required for the specific operation for the aircraft type and authorised approvals.

If you want use your IR outside the AOC holder then you must complete a full IR rating check, or another operators part 121.607 competency check.

[Cypher]

Thanks 404Titan..

Thats really good to know. There is no restriction on the CASA license renewal sticker as far as I can see.

Though its been a bloody long time since I flew anything remotely dial like into IFR... :)

[harrowing]

neville
One interpretation of type of operation is fixed wing versus rotary wing, rather than aircraft type, or perhaps even Cat A,B,C or D as a distinction.

[Tempo]

Neville,

Again that would depend on what sort of system your airline runs. I would suggest that your airline run instrument rating test which then gave you a 12 month time frame.

What we're talking about with Tempo is not doing a IR test just sim 3 times a year, where your IR just rolls on, and is only valid until your next sim.

If Tempo fails a sim then his IR is then no longer valid.

In other airlines your IR test is separate to your sim and you could fail a sim for some reason but your IR is still valid.

The IR 'test' is covered in the 3 cyclics/year (i.e matrix items). However, my IR is issued once/year and is valid for 12 months, just like any other IR renewal. I need to get a re-print every year to have a valid 12 month rating. Again, I fail to see evidence in the regs that states that if I leave the company my IR is invalid.

[notaplanegeek]

A little off topic, I'm not so sure about Aus but I had an employer put restrictions on one of my ratings. I called up NZ CAA and en quired about it and they said you either have the rating or you don't. There is no such thing as restrictions on a rating.

By restrictions I mean, you can only use this rating on our aircraft or for our company ops etc

[studentPILOT1]

instrumnet rating is the easiest of all because my close friend told me that he got it so quickly is in it good hey .

[Ted D Bear]

instrumnet rating is the easiest of all because my close friend told me that he got it so quickly is in it good hey


Hey, studentPILOT1, what are you on and where do I get some? :zzz:

[c100driver]

A little off topic, I'm not so sure about Aus but I had an employer put restrictions on one of my ratings. I called up NZ CAA and en quired about it and they said you either have the rating or you don't. There is no such thing as restrictions on a rating.

By restrictions I mean, you can only use this rating on our aircraft or for our company ops etc


The person you spoke to in NZ CAA is right and also wrong.

If you are doing an airline competency flight check (i.e. Part 121 or 125) it is not transferable as an IR renewal, unless you complete all the requirements of the IR renewal. Some airlines do all the IR exercises and it is an IR renewal. Some airlines do not complete all the IR exercises as per their approved training program and it is recorded as a competency 121.607 check.