Time taken for final ATSB reports

[muffman]

Does it really need to take so long to produce final accident investigation reports for GA accidents?

After recently flicking through the ATSB website, I note there are preliminary reports dating back to accidents in 2007 and 08. Presumably, the final report is still being written. These are not complex accidents involving transport category aeroplanes with mountains of data to analyse. They are often GA aeroplanes ploughing into the ground with little available evidence.

I realise they have limited resources and need to direct them where the greatest safety benefit can be achieved. But I think we need to weigh up the benefit of providing a more detailed report, which may take years to produce, against the possibility of a less detailed report provided in a timely fashion so that it can be used to improve safety.

People cop a lot of criticism on here for the speculation that surrounds accidents. I think if the other option means waiting two years for the final investigation report, speculate away.

At least try to learn something from it.

[remoak]

Yep, waiting two years for something that anyone with half a brain can figure out in five minutes... a fine use of the taxpayer's money... :ugh::ugh::ugh:

[sru]

I feel the whole process, be it airlines or GA, is quite complex. This does take time to produce a report that is, valid, identifies issues, and is "legal". Whilst it seems simple to determine cause, if its done properly, there are numerous bodies involved, both here and overseas. It all takes time to collate the data, process and compile the final report. As in most cases, safety deficiencies and recommendations are involved to insure our industry progresses forward wrt safety within a valid frame work.

yes yes ducking now :) ................ happy to talk tho :ok:

[Flying Binghi]

Does it really need to take so long to produce final accident investigation reports for GA accidents?

Was there anything 'urgent' in the reports that took two odd years to report ? Most of the reasons that cause prangs have been reported on in the crash comics hundreds of times before.


.

[VH-XXX]

I think you are missing the point of a detailed investigation... they are detailed.

Do you think it is a quick process to analyse light bulb filaments for stretching and metalurgy analysis of failed components?

[tipsy2]

Might I suggest that if you haven't been trained and conducted an accident investigation then attempting valid comment on the process is both uninformed and without value.

tipsy

[Cactusjack]

SRU,

I feel the whole process, be it airlines or GA, is quite complex. This does take time to produce a report that is, valid, identifies issues, and is "legal". Whilst it seems simple to determine cause, if its done properly, there are numerous bodies involved, both here and overseas. It all takes time to collate the data, process and compile the final report. As in most cases, safety deficiencies and recommendations are involved to insure our industry progresses forward wrt safety within a valid frame work

No need to duck, you are spot on. These are the exact reasons it takes so long.

tipsy2,
Might I suggest that if you haven't been trained and conducted an accident investigation then attempting valid comment on the process is both uninformed and without value.

Best comment yet, speaks for itself.:ok:

[Centaurus]

No need to duck, you are spot on. These are the exact reasons it takes so long.


Of course for public servants there are all the rostered days off, public holidays, head-ache and stress leave, parental leave, annual recreation leave for every person involved in the analysis of the incident/accident. Getting all interested parties together must be a nightmare of administration. Then of course there are the lawyers involved and the cycle starts again...

I remember when I was in DCA the faintly ridiculous situation where one public servant on the second floor needed to talk with a colleague on the third floor. So he wrote a Minute on a file asking when it would be convenient to pay a visit to his mate on the next floor. That Minute remained in his OUT tray for two days until the filing clerk did his rounds and took the files to the main file registry room. A day or so later that file duly arrived at the third floor office only to find that occupant was on sick leave for a few days including a long week-end of course. Curses! Foiled again.

A few days later the third floor guy read the Minute requesting the meeting and replied to his second floor mate that any time would be suitable for the meeting. That took another two days to reach the floor below. The second floor bloke then replied again with a few words saying "Thanks - I'll ring you first and we can talk about this project I wanted to discuss with you".

I kid you not - I saw the bloody files personally. Of course with inter-room emails (yes that happens when people will email the bloke on the next desk) things happen faster - or do they?

[Capn Bloggs]

They are often GA aeroplanes ploughing into the ground with little available evidence.
And they are probably the ones that take the longest. In the days of CVRs, FDRs and QARs, it is pretty easy and quick to work out what happened with a big machine. If you don't have any of those, I imagine it could take longer to come up with a plausible theory of what happened. And of course speed of report is probably directly related to numbers of staff (that know what they are on about) available to do it.

[hardNfast]

Just for interests sake anyone know how much $$ a ATSB investigator is on pass notes around the office and take 3 years to make a report?? Sounds like a good gig!

[training wheels]

It took the Indonesian NTSC just 8 months to release the final report of this CFIT accident in Papua. The accident happened on 2nd August 2009; final report released 21 April 2010. This is quite an achievement considering how busy they are with accident investigations in that part of the world! :E

http://www.dephub.go.id/knkt/ntsc_aviation/baru/Final%20Report%20PK-NVC.pdf

[eternity]

tipsy2 & cactusjack,


took the words right out of my mouth.........

[Flying Binghi]

Might I suggest that if you haven't been trained and conducted an accident investigation then attempting valid comment on the process is both uninformed and without value

tipsy2, if this thread were in the tech section of the forum then I think ya have a valid comment. IMO, noting the thread starter is not related to any particular prang and noting the forum section then a pilots thoughts/view on things is relavent input...;)




.

[Capn Bloggs]

It took the Indonesian NTSC just 8 months to release the final report of this CFIT accident in Papua.
And had the CVR for Lockhart River been available, that too would have been a fairly quick investigation.

[tipsy2]

For an overview go to


http://www.icao.int/icaonet/anx/info/annexes_booklet_en.pdf



ANNEX 13
to the Convention on
International Civil Aviation
Aircraft Accident and Incident Investigation

Dunno what the words in RED have to do with all this.
Comparing an ATSB Investigation with those of some other States is very much an "apples and oranges" situation.

tipsy

[muffman]

My original post was phrased as a question, and I was hoping to promote some more thought provoking discussion than lamenting the difficulties of being an accident investigator. Yes, I get it - it's a hard job.

My question still stands. Does it actually take two years to run an investigation on a GA accident? If it does, then case closed - it takes two years. I suspect, however, that it doesn't. My assertion is that there would be a marked safety benefit in releasing the report earlier.

Where does the time actually get spent? Is it paper pushing to get around legal issues? Not enough resources meaning things get put on the back burner every time something more serious comes up?

Might I suggest that if you haven't been trained and conducted an accident investigation then attempting valid comment on the process is both uninformed and without value.Great suggestion. :D That's why I posted the question to a forum of aviation professionals.

[Flying Binghi]

Dunno what the words in RED have to do with all this.

Apoligies tipsy2, the comment was'nt reference your post - reference now removed.