Another scam: selling a deregistered UK R44

[John Eacott]

A friend here in Australia was interested in an advert running for a Lowestoft based R44 Raven II, G-CERS. Nice specs, but mismatched photos and a reluctance to impart information. They even use the name and address of the last owner, which must be causing him some distress.

After a lot of help from other Rotorheads, it transpires that this is a scam to get a 10% deposit before inspection. Biggles99 sold the aircraft last year and it is re-registered in Switzerland, but he has heard of at least one other person interested in the R44 who balked at paying a pre-purchase deposit. The scam also appears to be controlled from.... (wait for it).... Nigeria :rolleyes:

[VeeAny]

John

Well spotted, you were wise to be cautious.

Gary

[normalbloke]

Didn't Yoda use that line??

[heli-cal]

This is not the R44 you're looking for!

http://i666.photobucket.com/albums/vv29/helixpteron/star-wars-smiley-6473.gif

[Mungo5]

It's likely they don't even have access to the ship.

The scammers pick high value items like aircraft and high-end cars, then re-advertise them, often with different photo's as you've noticed.

Unwitting buyers are duped into thinking it's a genuine advertisement and are conned into paying the fee to the "seller" - the aircraft may not even be for sale by it's real owner.

Clever really. And many many people fall for it.. :=

[VeeAny]

There was a similar thing going on last year with a Dauphin that the owner found out was being offered for sale when he spotted it on the internet.

A search for the supposed seller's phone number in Google revealed several other high value items that were also not for sale.

[Spunk]

I know of one guy who was offered a Raven II (2008) with only 70 hours for 160.000 €. They even copied the homepage of the former owner. And yes, that very cheap Dauphin is also still around.

[thehighflyer]

I happen to know that the actual (and legal) owner of the 44 is also not too impressed either!

[VeeAny]

A bit of digging reveals quite a few scam R44s supposedly for sale in the UK.

Some key points to look for,

No external photos.

Foreign Reg aircraft in strange places.

Check where it is supposed to be kept really exists.

P*ss poor use of English in the replies you get to emails (worse than mine).

Google the Postcode for the seller and see if it matches their address.

Check G-INFO or the Faa N registry (or local registry of choice) and see if it has been de registered or even exists.

Google the Reg and see if its got any crash history.

Gary

[ppheli]

John

sold the aircraft last year and it is re-registered in Switzerland

One wrong assumption there. I grant you it was cancelled from the UK register as going to Switzerland last November, but it's never been registered there in the 5+ months since.....

ppheli

[John Eacott]

One wrong assumption there. I grant you it was cancelled from the UK register as going to Switzerland last November, but it's never been registered there in the 5+ months since

I was going on info provided by biggles99, who sold the machine and gave me details of the sale and that it is registered in Switzerland.

There's only so much I can do from Australia ;)

Nonetheless, the search for an R44 is turning into a bit of an interesting exercise. We've identified a few shown on MyPlane.com as being 'dodgy': I'm particularly intrigued with this one:

2007 R44 Raven II (http://www.myplane.com/ad/3162) (United Kingdom) $680,000.00 12/9/2009 Lightly used Police helicopter in perfect condition and well equipped

When did anyone have a Police R44 in UK :confused:

[thehighflyer]

The helicopter has been allocated HB-ZLE S/N 11840 ex G-CERS and is currently undergoing its CofA in Sitterdorf, Switzerland.

[biggles99]

CERS is definitely in Switzerland, safe and sound and much loved by its new owner.

There are a lot of scam ads around, and there are even some scam helicopter sales organisations as well -- one Spanish client got conned out of 5,000 euros by a company called Alma purporting to be based in Plumpton.

They are currently advertising another non-existant helicopter - a lovely blue Clipper that Patriot sold to Germany last year.

In addition to Veeany's good advice, don't be afraid to do exactly what John Eacott did: contact someone you know is not a fraud and ask them for any background information on the seller or the sales organisation.

I know most, if not all, of the sales organisations in the UK, and I also know a lot of the R44s and R22s which are on the market, so if you want to check the validity of an advert then I'd happily help you out.

Big Ls

[chopjock]

2007 R44 Raven II (http://www.myplane.com/ad/3162) (United Kingdom) $680,000.00 12/9/2009 Lightly used Police helicopter in perfect condition and well equipped

When did anyone have a Police R44 in UKIt doesn't say it was a lightly used police helicopter in the UK.
Simple answer, it's probably been imported from another Country? Or it might still be in another Country!

[notar]

That could possibly be the police equipped R44 on the UK Reg G-POLI !

[chopjock]

That could possibly be the police equipped R44 on the UK Reg G-POLI ! Hell, so it is and I thought the UK ASU's would never even consider an R44 :) Was it only a demonstrator or was it actually used on active duty I wonder?

[Need money]

G-POLI is at HeliAir or was - I think just a demomstrator of some description.

[carholme]

For anyone involved in the acquisition of any aircraft:

1. Ensure that the entire procedure is handled by a bonded, third party escrow
service. These companies handle the deposits and the purchase funds
according to the terms set out in your LOIs and purchase agreements.

2. Ensure in your LOI that the deposit is fully refundable based upon
satisfactory inspection of the aircraft. Your deposit in (reputable) escrow
cannot be accessed by any other party until you say so, ie; once the
inspection has been completed and you notify the seller that you will
accept the aircraft.

3. Once the aircraft has been inspected and accepted by the buyer, the buyer
notifies the escrow house, who notifies the seller.

4. Once all parties are happy with the inspection results, all can proceed to
the purchase agreement. The escrow house will ensure that the buyer and
seller are ready to proceed per the terms of that Purchase Agreement. They
will ask the seller for the Bill of Sale made out to the buyer and ask the
buyer to deposit the balance of the purchase funds.

5. On acceptance by both parties to proceed with the purchase, the escrow
house will ensure that the Bill of Sale and purchase funds change hands at
the same time. The escrow house will also have de-registered the aircraft
from the seller and readied it for registration to the buyer.

They will also have ensured that there are no liens or encumbrances
against the aircraft.

This is a very simplified precis of the steps involved but handling it this way ensures that your money stays within your control until you and your lawyers
are satisfied with everything.

NEVER, EVER PAY ANY FUNDS DIRECTLY INTO THE SELLERS OR ANY OTHER ACCOUNT OTHER THAN THAT OF THE ESCROW HOUSE!

We have used a major escrow house in the US for years without a problem of any kind and it is the best guarantee of protecting your money and ensuring that the product you are buying is real.

I don't think we can post names here but I am happy to PM any party the name and contacts of the escrow house we use.

Regards

carholme

[John Eacott]

carholme,

I guess that different countries do things differently. I've never paid any deposit until after an engineering inspection. Then, we sit down and discuss purchase price, etc, and then sign purchase agreements.

I wouldn't pay a deposit of any sort prior to looking at a car, house or motorbike. Why should an aircraft be different?

[carholme]

John;

I am not saying that you have to pay a deposit but it is the norm with large aircraft and slowly becoming the same with smaller. If you don't wish to pay a deposit, simply tell them you are not going to. My advice was for those who are in a position of having to pay a deposit and showing them how to protect their money from the scammers.

I did say in my previous, that the refundable deposit is based upon satisfactory inspection. That means that the deposit never leaves the escrow account until the inspection has been satisfactory.

Even on large a/c, what usually happens is that the deposit and purchase funds are paid directly after the inspection if both parties still wish to proceed.

A deposit, no matter how big or small is nothing more than an expression of "good faith" which there is very little of anymore.

But if you do wish to conduct business buyer to seller direct, have at 'er!

carholme

[biggles99]

I sold over 30 Robinsons last year, and several of these were to people who sent me a deposit - and then the whole balance - without having actually seen the aircraft!

So it isn't that unusual, or "stupid" as some people think.

I've done the same myself -- both when buying aircraft and also when dealing with Opmas before the Danish VAT route closed last year. Sending an entity in a foreign country you've never seen £200,000 always makes for a sleepless night!

We've never had to give a refund and we've had a lot of repeat business.

As for the Escrow route, if it's genuine the worst thing that happens is that the whole deal gets bogged down for weeks while paperwork is done by the lawyers.

But if it is not a genuine Escrow company then you still lose your money to the scammer.

In the case of G-CERS, the scammer sends out a contract from a lawyer purporting to be the Escrow agent which is very, very convincing and re-assuring. I've seen it, and it really looks like the real thing. And if you are based in Australia or the UK, it's difficult to tell whether a USA/Canadian based Escrow lawyer is the real thing or not.

This industry is small enough to check with people you know and trust about the credentials of someone that you want to deal with.

There has to be a lot of trust involved - on both sides of the buy/sell transaction - so choose your business associates with care and remember:

"people like to business with people they like".

hope this helps,

Big Ls

[CannyInvestor]

As for the Escrow route, if it's genuine the worst thing that happens is that the whole deal gets bogged down for weeks while paperwork is done by the lawyers.
But if it is not a genuine Escrow company then you still lose your money to the scammer.

You don't need to worry any more, in the EU at least.

Since 1 November 2009, with the introduction in the UK of the Payment Services Regulations, escrow services finally come under the auspices of the FSA and HMRC.
You will find genuine escrow companies at the FSA online register at www.fsa.gov.uk/register/psdFirmSearchForm.do (http://www.fsa.gov.uk/register/psdFirmSearchForm.do) (try searching there for 'escrow' as an example) and/or at https://customs.hmrc.gov.uk/msbregister/checkTerms.do).

These new online escrow services may offer exactly the service you are looking for, and cost only £3 or so all-in to use !

Beware, as you point out, there are many, many fraudulent escrow services which look real - even quoting UK addresses, phone numbers and fake FSA & HMRC registration numbers. They look extremely professional, and any money posted to them (or goods sent relying on them) will be lost forever. So only ever work with a firm on the FSA register and/or the HMRC register, which will be safe.


And there are strict time limits, so you are unlikely to get have your money unnecessarily tied up.

[macardinal]

Hi, I am a Canadian, Engineer on helicopters.
Recently, I have been shopping for many clients who were looking forward to buy either a Bell 206 or a R44.
In to different trials to purchase an EC120B and an R44 in England, the deal was aborted at time on proceeding with contract and deposit. The seller was offering an aircraft for lower than market price. I would then offer less and the seller would accept right away. Easy and funny! After that, the deposit is requested from seller. He wanted a deposit directly in his company bank account, wich I refused.asked him to put a deposit in an Escrow account wich he chose.veified the bank infos and there was no answer on the phone number, the fax number does not exist and there was no information on escrow agent through google search. If you offer to come to UK with money for deposit, he will never accept. He wants a wire transfer. He argues that it is the procedure and has to be followed. I never sent my clients money! The guy's name is Dennis Lomani and the EC120 case was Michael Lannis.when he answers the phone, he always asks again``who do you want to speak with?`` and after, he asks for ``one moment please`` When he comes back to the phone, it is the same voice! I do not trust this man. It corresponds to all the previous cases in this forum!
Thanks to internet to permit to find all that out!

[cyclic phenomenon]

I've just discovered that my aircraft has been put up for sale at a juicy price on various sites with a set of details and photos from G-INFO and a bit of extra inventiveness as far as the spec goes. It even has my full name and address from the CAA site, but a bogus pair of phone numbers that connect you to what appears to be a Nigerian gentleman who doesn't seem to know much about the aircraft. I'm afraid it appears at least one party from brazil has fronted a deposit, only to be told that I crashed it yesterday! So no aircraft, and I expect no deposit.

Just a warning. I know a lot of dealing is done on trust - I did the same when I bought the aircraft, but it's a case of "if it sounds too good to be true......". I've emailed all the sites I can find asking to have the ad taken down. I can't help wondering why the CAA make the info so readily available. I can't get access to the DVLA records for car details, why can I look up aircraft data?

[EN48]

I wouldn't pay a deposit of any sort prior to looking at a car, house or motorbike. Why should an aircraft be different?

Sage advice! Having bought and sold a number of aircraft over the last 30 years, I wouldnt pay a nickel to anyone until I (or my representative) had physically examined the aircraft and done some basic due diligence. Any funds would then be escrowed until closing. There are a zillion R44's for sale so its not as though you will never find another one!

and then the whole balance - without having actually seen the aircraft!


Same here and I marvel at their willingness to do this! I'd stop short of calling it stupid, but sending a pile of money to a voice on the phone is a good way to be parted from your money. No need for it.

[500e]

Welcome to the 419 Eater: Scam Tracker (http://www.419eater.com/scamtracker/)
nuf said SM

[kennethr]

Good advice and good explanation, but not sure that the escrow company can de register the aircraft, need to be careful if it is changing countries as you dont want to de register without export Cof A.....

Been a while since i have done it but export Cof A was always very important part of process, never the less you are spot on about escrow!!

KM

[hands_on123]

SCF Limited | Home | Turbo Props | Used Helicopter | Jet Sales (http://www.scflimited.co.uk)

this company is offering helicopters for sale. all looks very convincing. but i just spoke to the director of the company and he assures me he is nothing to do with helicopters and someone is operating a scam website and using his name etc. the police are aware.

[9Aplus]

The phones are "clasic scam" style :bored::
http://www.scflimited.co.uk/mm_spacer.gif

Contact Us


Tel: +44 (0) 7031 NNN
Fax:+44 (0) 7006 NNN


:}

[BristowXJ]

I'm so sick of idiots trying to exploit people in aviation! What happened to the good old days of good airmanship :hmm:

[md 600 driver]

Is this something to do with MD or joep?

[sfrith]

We visited scf limited last week and took delivery of a Robinson R44 helicopter. I think this posting should be a mistake. There hangar is out side UK

[toptobottom]

A chum of mine pointed me at this website (http://www.aviatorsale.com)as there was an aircraft being advertised that he knew would be of interest to me. When I contacted the owner (known mutually to my chum and I), I learned that although the seller's address seemed legit, the spec was completely ficticious and the asking price was 25% less than book!

There seems to be no way of contacting those responsible for the site, so maybe the whole site is a scam :confused:

"If it seems to good to be true, then it probably is...".

[ppheli]

I checked publicly available information at Companies House, and the directors of SCF Ltd are "Simon William Kenrick FRITH" and "Susan Claire FRITH". Both have 50 shares and both give the Market Harborough address on SCF's website (http://www.scflimited.co.uk/contact.html) as their residence.

So, sfrith, how do you expect us (on your first post on this forum) to believe you visited SCF's hangar outside the UK to pick up a helicopter???? Oh, and while I'm asking questions, have you bought a present for your wife's birthday next Friday yet?

Perhaps it's your posting that is a mistake??

Caveat emptor

[hands_on123]

I spoke to the REAL Simon Frith on the telephone at his home, and asked him about the helis for sale, he said his business (SCF) is nothing to do with helicopters and someone is using his company name, and details to run this scam.

He said the police have been informed, and the police also called me a few days later to talk to me about this scam, so there is no mistake, SCF do NOT sell helicopters, some dodgy bloke with premium rate phone number runs that website. He will send you forged aircraft documents and ask for a "pre-inspection" payment, and then disappear.

A friend of mind is looking for an R44 (this is how I got involved in this, he asked me for advice) and he has told me most helicopter adverts these days that look like a good price are scams, and if they have a 0703 0704 phone number they are DEFINITELY a scam.

You have been warned.

The police said to me that if I came across any other scams or any other infotmation, to call them. Steve Moffitt, G.A. Officer, Warwick Police, tel 01926 415000 x 5277 The police said these scammers are hard to track down as the websites are often registered/hosted abroad and hard to shut down.

[toptobottom]

Anyone paying a"Pre-inspection" fee directly to an unverified 'seller' deserves to lose it!! If asked for any up-front payment, always use an escrow agent that you appoint.

hands_on - I'll report my case to Steve Moffitt too :ok:

[cyclic phenomenon]

HO123 - I think we spoke yesterday. My aircraft has been "up for sale" for about 8 weeks now and it's getting to be a pain. It's hard to track down all the websites and get them to remove the adverts, and it's too easy to put the ads up again as there are a lot of sites offering free ads. I would repeat the advice to not even think of phoning anybody whose number starts 070. Also beware escrow agents appointed by the seller - it's your money, you should choose the agent.
Obviously the scammers read this board (Hi SFrith!) so perhaps I could pass on a personal message to go and @£%$ yourselves. CP

[Rich B]

Hi All

This topic may have been posted elsewhere and I did have a brief look over previous threads, but could not find anything. So please accept my apologies if I am covering old ground here.

My question is as follows. Do I, as a private owner, have any protection from websites which offer an (for an, substitute my) aircraft for sale when I know that is it not on the market.

Should we be pointing blame at the CAA for providing too much private information on their website via the search registration function. In my opinion, this is too easily available to all and sundry, and is not needed in such a public domain.

Any thoughts would be greatly welcomed

Best Regards

Rich B

[hands_on123]

http://www.pprune.org/rotorheads/451593-heli-sales-scam-alert.html

I emailed the CAA twice over the last 2 months, asking why they list peoples personal details on G-INFO. They didn't even reply to me.

[hands_on123]

Dear Sir,

Thank you for your e-mail regarding G-INFO.

As you may know, the CAA is required, by law, to maintain a Register of Aircraft in the UK, to include on it the names and addresses of all persons qualified to be the owners of the aircraft and to make the Register available to any person to inspect. Insofar as you are a person with legal or equitable title to the aircraft, the CAA therefore is required to include your name and address on the register and to make the register publicly available.

As it was a pre-existing piece of legislation requiring these details to be made public it is not covered by the Data Protection Act.

The CA1 application form that you completed to register the aircraft states in the accompanying notes: 'The UK Register of Civil Aircraft is available to the public, including via the CAA website, and includes the names and addresses of registered owners of aircraft.'

It not possible to suppress names and address on G-INFO however we do not insist that you use your private residential address on your application to register but do recommend that you use the most appropriate correspondence address for the distribution of safety information. If you wish to change your address on your existing Certificate of Registration to an airfield, business or PO Box address please return it to us giving details of the new address and a new Certificate will be issued and the Register entry amended. There is no charge for the re-issue of a Certificate of Registration for a change of address.


Regards
Aircraft Registrar
Civil Aviation Authority
Tel: +44 (0)20 7453 6666
Fax: +44 (0)20 7453 6670
email: [email protected]
web: Aircraft Register | Safety Regulation (http://www.caa.co.uk/aircraftregister)

[Rich B]

Hi again

If anyone is interested I contacted the CAA today and to my utter amazement they replied rather quickly. This is their response.

Dear Sir,

Thank you for your e-mail.

As you may know, the CAA is required, by law, to maintain a Register of Aircraft in the UK, to include on it the names and addresses of all persons qualified to be the owners of the aircraft and to make the Register available to any person to inspect. Insofar as you are a person with legal or equitable title to the aircraft, the CAA therefore is required to include your name and address on the register and to make the register publicly available.

As it was a pre-existing piece of legislation requiring these details to be made public it is not covered by the Data Protection Act.

The CA1 application form that you completed to register the aircraft states in the accompanying notes: 'The UK Register of Civil Aircraft is available to the public, including via the CAA website, and includes the names and addresses of registered owners of aircraft.'

We assume that you have contacted the website concerned to remove this entry, however we ourselves will only re-register and aircraft if we are satisfied ownership has changed and contact the current registered owner before doing so.

We do not insist that you use your private residential address on your application to register but do recommend that you use the most appropriate correspondence address for the distribution of safety information. If you wish to change your address on your existing Certificate of Registration to a business, airfield or PO Box address please return it to us giving details of the new address and a new Certificate will be issued and the Register entry amended. There is no charge for the re-issue of a Certificate of Registration for a change of address.

The website in question is the one that toptobottom mentions above, and as he says, there is no way to contact them via their site.
So it seems the CAA think that it is ok to publish this information due to the anachronistic nature of their rule as opposed to protecting the identity of owners. In this age of information and identity theft etc, I find that attitude rather worrying. The DVLA do not behave in the same fashion so why should it be different with an aircraft register?

Cheers

Rich B

[soloviev]

G-POLI is now on a contract for a local Police Agency in Northern Italy.

[Pandalet]

The DVLA don't make it much more difficult to get details - you just have to pay them a tenner (last I checked) to get registration details for a given license plate.

[firebird_uk]

The DVLA don't make it much more difficult to get details

Yes, but by forcing the individual to identify themselves and pay they stop mass trawling of the database by unknown individuals.

I would have thought with all the (pointless?) restrictions coming in for the 2012 Olympics the DoT and security services would see G-INFO as a major problem. [It even lists the transponder 24 bit ID's so that you can make one aircraft look line another on radar!] However, I doubt they know enough about aviation to know G-INFO exists.

[Rich B]

Hi all

Well this is not a forum to discuss the DVLA, but here is an extract from their website which clearly states there is a need to prove a reason for obtaining the information and also a fee is payable.

How to find out about the keeper details of another vehicle


You can only get the name and address of the registered keeper of another vehicle if you can demonstrate ‘reasonable cause’ for needing the information. The DVLA must consider the reasons why you need the information and how it will be used before it is given to you.
It is a criminal offence under Section 55 of the Data Protection Act 1998 to unlawfully obtain or sell personal information. Unlimited fines in the Crown Court (or to a maximum of £5,000 in the Magistrates Court) exist as penalties in respect of these offences.

Is it unreasonable to expect/demand that the CAA adopt a similar procedure?

Rant over!

Best Regards

Rich B

[Chopper Doc]

Do you struggle with reading? The law clearly states they have to keep a register that is open to the public. They have no say in it. If you have got such a big bee in your bonnet about it contact your local MP and try to get the law changed. That is how it works in a country run by rule of law. <rant over>