Is RAF grounded as well ?

[racedo]

Just not sure whether given the shutting down of UK airspace and whether this applies to RAF as well.

[Grabbers]

On a Friday? What do you think?

[racedo]

Yeah I know.:ugh::ugh:

Interesting New Weapon opportunity though and thats seeding huge areas with silica type material that ingested into an engine would hamper performance.

[Grabbers]

Interestingly my wife had the same idea. However, when I suggested Terry Taliban could use the dust from our TV she was less than keen. Women eh? :)

[GreenKnight121]

Story on ash-damaged Finnish F/A-18 Hornets... with pics of the ash melted onto turbine blades:
http://www.pprune.org/military-aircrew/412155-icelandic-ash-cloud-2.html#post5638678

[darn]

No mil flying up here in scotland - they've even banned the RAFFCA flying club from flying our little cessna's :(

[ATCAdam]

All VGS and AEF (Cadet flights) have been cancelled all weekend :ugh:Think I'd be right in saying that's across the whole of the UK.

[A and C]

I am told that the order to shut down all but emergency military flying is a political one, It would seem that there is no technical reason for stopping low level flying (below FL050) as the Volcanic ash is above FL200.

So the reason for the shutdown is that the Govenment feels that having the miltary flying when the general public can't go away on holiday is politicly embrassing if the press was to get hold of it.

The question I have to ask is why military trainning is put on hold (when people are working up to go to Afganistan) when there is no technical reason for it?

Is this move because the real people running the UK are the press? or is it just one more example of a Govenment who put the needs of the forces second to taking a little flack in the press from a badly informed press?

[Topsy Turvey]

Anyone know whats happening with the medical evacuation flights from Theatre that normally come into Birmingham?

Are those injured being kept in Theatre or taken elsewhere such as Akrotiri or a Mil Hosp in a friendly country in Southern Europe? Heard that the Americans are flying their wounded back to the US rather than Germany

[bakerpictures]

I bet the Reds are happy to be in Akrotiri rather than Scampton at the moment.

[scarecrow450]

Belive MOD said casevac flights could be made to UK if required.

Just hope none are required for a while.

[Gnd]

Saw 4 nice Chinnie on SPTA about 16:30 on Fri? Flying W at airmans.

[Scotch Bonnet]

Hope all the lads and lasses can console themselves whilst they wait for their R and R/end of tour flights.

[Gnd]

Probably all on the ground watching the Reds

[scarecrow450]

Probably all on the ground watching the Reds


poor buggers,have'nt they been through enough !! :eek:

[Trim Stab]

Ooh I am quivering in my boots. Those nasty Ivans must be itching to get over here in their Bears to photographs us in our dust cloud.

Just as well that we have our heroic QRA Typhoons on round the clock alert to protect us.

[ATCAdam]

I'm wondering who you mean by "they".
HQ Air Command I imagine.

[stickjocky]

Never thought i would see VA on a UK METAR! but yes we have had a nice long weekend.

[TEEEJ]

'Ash on aircraft halts flights from Cornwall to Scillies'

'Staff at Newquay Airport said that flights between Cornwall and the Isles of Scilly were halted at about 1545 BST and that the decision was made as the ash cloud was drifting at a lower altitude.'

BBC News - Ash on aircraft halts flights from Cornwall to Scillies (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/cornwall/8627392.stm)

'Two die as aircraft crashes into field in Hampshire'

BBC News - Two die as aircraft crashes into field in Hampshire (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/hampshire/8627661.stm)

"A Hampshire Police spokesman said: "It is too early to say whether ash was a factor but it will form part of the investigation."

[rogerk]

"A Hampshire Police spokesman said: "It is too early to say whether ash was a factor but it will form part of the investigation."

It was a b***** microlite !!

[endplay]

Two light aircraft overflew my house in WSM yesterday. Thought nothing of it at first then did a mental shift as I thought the no fly order applied to everyone except emergency aircraft. Are such flights as I witnessed allowed?

[vecvechookattack]

Yep. It is only Controlled airspace which is closed.

[dallas]

Unless it's changed since Friday NATS had only closed controlled airspace - there was never a no-fly order as such. Several of my company's a/c flew international trips on Thu and Fri with insurer and Eurocontrol approval, albeit away from the dust.

[racedo]

Drove up M40 yesterday as was weird seeing no contrails or any aircraft.

Gliders were out though and quite a lot of them as well.

[muttywhitedog]

So, have the airbridges to Afghan & MPA been suspended?

[melmothtw]

Airbridges to Afghan and Falklands suspended (on Friday there were 4 aircraft stuck in the system - 2 at Akrotiri)

Casualties to be evacuated to unaffected coalition nations

SAR, QRA, and emergency flights unaffected.

[verticalflyer]

We were flying out of Dunkeswell at the weekend and skydiving, ceiling was restricted to 10,000ft from cardiff. At 4,500-6000ft we had a very strong sulphurous burning type smell through out the aircraft (a caravan) but other than that nothing below or above other than a very empty sky bar two micro lights hedge jumping.

I am wondering how this is affecting the Air Bridge?

[Twon]

I hope this is sorted out soon, otherwise there will be a shortage of salad to go with the BBQ in ASI!!

Seriously, I hope the Afghan airbridge/seabridge is sorted out PDQ. Thoughts go out to those returning from their tour. Heard a rumour that wounded can/may go to the US, if necessary; not sure how true that is.

[Wander00]

My son who lives in Copenhagen flew to San Diego on Thursday on the last US-bound flight out of Kastrup, and today flew back into Oslo on the first SAS flight back to Scandinavia, and SAS are bussing them from Oslo to CPH - latest text is from somewhere in SW Sweden!

[airborne_artist]

We were flying out of Dunkeswell at the weekend and skydiving, ceiling was restricted to 10,000ft from cardiff. At 4,500-6000ft we had a very strong sulphurous burning type smell through out the aircraft

ISTR a similar smell in the back of Albert at about the time we got the instruction to stand up, hook up and prepare for equipment check. We only jumped from 800 AGL however :E

[Flying_Anorak]

Yup - I was one of them, great views of the remains of Cherwell Valley services but overall the visibility was probably the worst I've ever known and I swear I could smell hints of sulphur in the air at between 5,000 and 6,000 ft local QFE.

[Chris Kebab]

Still an interesting question as to who precisely in the MOD makes the decision that MOD regulated aircraft simply follow decrees made by NATS. Air Command have no juristiction (as far as i am aware) over Army and Navy flying, yet they all seem to be grounded as well. I cannot believe that the RAF/Navy ATC community hold a similar level of sway over operational matters that NATS appear to have in the civvy world.

Maybe it's an edict from our newly formed MAA, but given the provenance of that organisation I suspect they would simply slopey shoulder responsibility back to the Commands.

[Monkey Madness]

@ Chris.

From what I was told, the decision was made by an RAF bod who chairs a joint service cttee of some sorts.

[leopold bloom]

Although it's difficult to improve on Monkey Madness's eloquent post are there some clues here?
RAF - News by Date (http://www.raf.mod.uk/news/archive.cfm?storyid=B9221870-5056-A318-A818F05B5B9C2C20&rss=true)

[Wander00]

French Air Force is flying - Herc just went over our house in the S Vendee at about 200 ft (or 66m)

[airborne_artist]

At least one Merlin took to the skies over S Oxfordshire today.

[Spanish Waltzer]

With the latest news that ALL UK airports opening at 2200 BST today will the mil be flying tomorrow too...

[vecvechookattack]

as Mil flying today. But I imagine that all the restrictions have now gone

[loch lomond 79]

Hi new poster here.

Does anyone know what the chances are the RAF will start flights back up again.I know the JMC was cancelled and there is alot of traffic still stuck at bases.

Now with the ban lifted will they start to move with-in the UK airspace.

Thanks in advance.

[Monkey Madness]

@ Leopold



Some RAF bods and some sort of committee
Although it's difficult to improve on Monkey Madness's eloquent post are there some clues here?
RAF - News by Date (http://www.raf.mod.uk/news/archive.cfm?storyid=B9221870-5056-A318-A818F05B5B9C2C20&rss=true)


:} Fair one, I deserved that.:ok:

The signal we received was signed COS ATM. Though interestingly our SATCO had a visit from an MAA bod who knew nothing about the decision. :confused:

[Chris Kebab]

..civvies are launching the wing but the MOD can't fly yet?

Que?

Looks like it is an MAA issue - what exactly are all those two and three stars actually doing?:confused::confused:

[TEEEJ]

According to the enthusiast forums RAF Lossiemouth Tonkas were active. GR4s flying yesterday and F.3s noted this morning.

The ATIS broadcast is still off at RAF Coningsby. ATIS at RAF Cranwell is active.

RAF Coningsby started the flying day with a blistering Typhoon display! Well done the team and all the best for the season! :ok:

http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4031/4541345245_4f2676d656_o.jpg

TJ

[Pontius Navigator]

I would bet a shilling that the ban was seen as a G*d given chance to save a bit of money.

Start of the flying year, training year ahead and plenty of room to catch up. The OCUs and schools will be most affected as they will either have to reschedule course end dates or more likely squeeze their training.

Lost non-Op training will simply be written off and the money saved. Op-workup training will be squeezed and may be the odd sortie shaved off their too.

[TEEEJ]

Red 6 & 7 now up at RAF Scampton.

TJ

[cockanelli]

just heard rumour that a BA 747 has diverted in France with double engine failure. Not sure if its related to ash but it is very coincidental.

[brit bus driver]

Do you have a source for that rumour? Or is it merely scaremongering?

[cockanelli]

Ops. But that means its probably utter bollox! Then again, this is a rumour network. Not found on any news sources yet.

[brit bus driver]

Whose ops?

Not on the news, not on the comapny intranet, not on the union forum. That doesn't mean it's not true of course, but it if it smells of $hit....

[Grabbers]

So with this 747 in Ostend, why are big metal birds still in the sky? Surely if there's any doubt, there's no doubt?

[cockanelli]

Ha. Jungle telegraph does work. How come this hasn't hit the news? Surely its a big story for them.

[brit bus driver]

If you look on the main PPRuNe rumour page and follow the thread you will see that it was a 747F with evidence of ash on two engines and engineers to be flown to Ostend to inspect it.

It appears Fact and not Rumour that a 747 diverted and equally it looks probable that it had what looked like ash on the engines.

Perhaps because it happens to be an MD-11 (BA don't have too many of those last time I looked) with a single engine shutdown and engineering input is ongoing.

Perhaps Lyneham needs to get back to managing its own business rather than bandying this cr@p about. Or am I being disingenuous given that the thread starter are 'Kengineer-130' and 'cockanelli'?

[cockanelli]

Its a RUMOUR network, BBD!! And we don't normally stand 6 crews to standby just for fun.

[Double Hush]

Has anyone got any facts? And yes, I know this is a rumour site! We are hearing plenty of rumours, including Typhoons that flew yesterday (Wed) and returned with engine damage!! This rumour (truth?) has forced another day on the ground on the Island of Dreams, especially in light of the RR advice on what rectification is required if one of their motors is subject to volcanic ash - it's a lot!

[TEEEJ]

ATIS broadcast is now active at RAF Coningsby. Switched on 1030 Zulu.

Now on information code Bravo as of 1050 Zulu. No display practice times being transmitted for either Typhoon or BBMF.

TJ

[ACW599]

>ATIS broadcast is now active at RAF Coningsby. Switched on 1030 Zulu. Now on information code Bravo as of 1050 Zulu. No display practice times being transmitted for either Typhoon or BBMF.<

At the risk of having my Nerd Spotter rating forcibly renewed, the BBMF's Hurricane PZ865 was showing on my SBS-1 as airborne at around lunchtime yesterday (21 Apr).

[Sgt.Slabber]

BBC news "ticker" reporting Typhoon training flights suspended...:\

BBC News - Ash chaos: Row grows over airspace shutdown costs (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/8636461.stm)

the link provides the following about halfway down the page:


The Ministry of Defence said that RAF training flights on Typhoons based at RAF Coningsby in Lincolnshire have been suspended, after checks on one aircraft found ash deposits in one of its engines.


...and the Guardian has a bit more:

RAF suspends training flights over volcanic ash deposits | UK news | guardian.co.uk (http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2010/apr/22/raf-flight-training-suspended-ash)

[Aggamemnon]

BBC story:

BBC News - RAF Typhoon training halted as ash found in engine (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/8637978.stm)

[67Wing]

Just read this on the BBC web site ...

"According to the BBC's Richard Scott, the Civil Aviation Authority has pointed out that military planes fly much faster and suck in far more air than their civilian counterparts."

At medium/high-level, I thought we all fly at about the same mach number. The last time I looked, the 747 intakes looked a mite larger than the Typhoon's but perhaps I'm wrong. Perhaps a thermodynamical-thrusty-type-engineer could enlighten us about the mass flow rate through engine cores in the cruise at height? Sounds suspiciously like more rubbish from a regulator saying the first thing that comes in his head.

[Fake Sealion]

Would be of great interest if it could be determined exactly which day the offending ash was digested and approx where in the sky?

[Softie]

67Wing

The core of a big jet fan engine will be derated and operating at lower turbine temps for greater efficiency and life than a higher rated military FJ turbofan. Turbine blade cooling is more critical to stop the engine burning out. Possibly, RAF engineers and operators may be a bit cautious and bottom line driven than their civilian cousins.

[TEEEJ]

ACW599,

Correct. PZ865 was up yesterday. Today was just 41 Squadron and a practice by the Dakota that wasn't broadcast on the DATIS.

Fake Sealion,
It was yesterday (21st). There was a broadcast for all aircraft to return. DATIS by about 15:30 local was broadcasting "No further take-offs"

TJ

[Redcarpet]

Brize Norton seemed awfully quiet today, was that also related to the eurofighter?

[Duncan D'Sorderlee]

Nimrod MR2 XV231 flew from Kinloss to Manchester yesterday.

Duncs:ok:

[The B Word]

I guess it all comes down to the bypass ratio - ie. how much goes down the core of the engine (the bit that does the "suck, squeeze, bang and blow").

Typhoon's Eurojet EJ200 has a 0.4:1 bypass ratio

Boeing 737's CFM-56 has a 5:1 to 6:1 bypass ratio (depending on the variant)

Tristar/B747's RB-211 has a 4:1 to 5:1 bypass ratio (depending on the variant)

Both can be damaged by contimination (such as sand, ice and ASH!), but the low-bypass-ratio EJ200 is far more likely to suffer damage over the high-bypass-ratio RB211 or CFM-56.

The F404s fitted to the F-18C/Ds of the Finnish Air Force (that were also damaged recently) has an even lower bypass-ratio of 0.34:1 :eek:

So that's my opinion/theory.

B Word :ok:

[Lima Juliet]

I guess that means keeping the F3s because the RB199 has a bypass ratio of around 1.3:1 :eek::eek::eek:

[The B Word]

Here's an interesting read... http://www.skybrary.aero/bookshelf/books/357.pdf?utm_source=SKYbrary&utm_campaign=7ae28591d0-SKYbrary_Highlights_15_4_2010&utm_medium=email

It would seem to me that both our Military and Civilian regulators are completely unaware of its content - or they've given it a stiff ignoring!!!

The B Word

[Just This Once...]

I see in the document we (the Europeans) defer to the Smithsonian Institute for such matters.

See, it was the damn Yanks again - UKIP beware!

[dilly]

Apparently there was very little happening at Waddington today. From the grapevine in Town today, it wasn't just Typhoons that had issues with ash yesterday.

[3 bladed beast]

Being a rumour network....rumour has it that the E3 trashed 3 engines and the Astor one.... and not flying near the reported ash cloud either.....

[CheapAsChips]

Rumour/fact? Perhaps there wasn't any flying fragged anyway.....

[dctyke]

I know that Linton on Ouse Tucanos have sustained ash damage!

[A and C]

I csan't help thinking that this all has the look of damage limitation..........and not to jet engines!

Has the RAF been told to find as much ash damage as it can and then take drastic action? this would would be likely to take pressure off the govenment for the way they shut UK airspace last week.

I would like to take a look at the "ash damage" and compare is on a flying hour basis with what is found in the turbines when opperating from some of the sandy places that seem so popular with the RAF at the moment.

Only then would we be able to say if the RAF is being used as a political pawn in this election.

[Lord Trenchards Brat]

Plenty of noise at secret Typhoon base. Perhaps there testing the fresh Lincolnshire air?

[threeputt]

No noise emanating from up the road from my gaff.(Lyneham)

3P:ok:

[gsa]

I know that Linton stopped the Tucanos flying

Might have yesterday. Currently 8 miles from Linton and one just overflew surprisingly low and fast.

[Dark Helmet]

For what it's worth, I tend to agree with B Word's bypass theory. I was mulling this over the other day and came to the same conclusion. Tucano engines have no bypass at all (as far as I know).

[lightbluefootprint]

From the ACO:
Urgent Announcement VGS & AEF FLYING
HQ Air Command has directed that all Cadet and Instructor flying on VGS and AEFs is cancelled over the weekend 24th and 25th April.


Seems like even winches operating at 0' are being affected.......

[Lord Trenchards Brat]

All seems to have been very normal here today despite rumours. Plenty of 100LL burnt by various airframes and car alarms being set off by the avtur burners:ok:

[Opsbeatch]

For the VGS' it would appear that they couldn't think of anything so are saying it's because the pitot system has no filter on it for the Vikings...

Nuff said really, best flying weather in ages and someone in their ivory tower decides to stop the best advert for the RAF doing it's job...(Unpaid but that's another can of worms!!!).

Rant over, soap box dismantled, POETS!

OB :ok:

[Anonystude]

Anyone else think the headline in the latest Pravda (sorry, RAF News) is particularly amusing?

RAF News - ASH alert fails to ground RAF (http://www.rafnews.co.uk/readstory.asp?storyID=451)

[TEEEJ]

Typhoons back up as of 0800 local this morning. Kicked off with a blistering Typhoon practice display and was repeated at 1300 local. The Typhoon was also practicing with Battle of Britain Memorial Flight Spitfire Mk LFIXe as a synchro pair. Routine flying noted by the squadrons.

TJ

[Trim Stab]

Kicked off with a blistering Typhoon practice display and was repeated at 1300 local. The Typhoon was also practicing with Battle of Britain Memorial Flight Spitfire Mk LFIXe as a synchro pair.


All very well trying to convince us that the Typhoon is the modern Spitfire, essential to save us against invasion, but I would have thought that given the alleged shortage of resources for our QRA force, the RAF would have better things to do with their alloted budget?

http://www.pprune.org/military-aircrew/410127-no-blame-over-raf-tornado-crash.html

Just wondering - after all there is an overseas war on and the country has record deficits.

[sunburst]

Saw my 1st C130 for over a week coming towards Lyneham this evening, though still looks very quiet at the base. Seems strange that the fleet seems effectively grounded, leaving our forces unable to get home, while getting civilians back from holiday seems a priority.

[622]

ref the above, there is an election coming up..:E

[Trim Stab]

ref the above, there is an election coming up..


Huh? Last I knew military had one vote each, just like civilians.

[sunburst]

622, good but scary point. I'm sure it's saving a lot of money, but what about the needs of our servicemen / women? They have the right to vote too.

On a personal level, it's affecting my sleep as I'm used to having the Hercs flying over my house for the last 40 years, always been quite assuring. When I was a kid, i always thought Dad'll be home soon :).

[Double Hush]

And still the saga continues! It would seem that a fast jet training establishment in Wales launched their first flying yesterday since the no-fly ban last week. After the first wave, they were all grounded again! Ash had been found on and in a number of airframes/engines during the subsequent turnround servicing. Are the civvies just ignoring this?

[Peter Carter]

So what happened to that post - it was there then it wasn't.....

[Chris Kebab]

..I removed mine Peter as curiously the previous two post have now gone and it was made rather irrelevant!

[Trim Stab]

Ash had been found on and in a number of airframes/engines during the subsequent turnround servicing. Are the civvies just ignoring this?


Maybe the ash is settling to the lower layers? We were one of the first aircraft airborne after the ban was lifted for a return flight to Cannes. No visible traces anywhere after either leg. But we were up at 450 for most of the flight.


what happened to that post?


Were you talking about the post that I briefly made? I have been getting a few unpleasant pms from somebody - I briefly posted one on the forum, but then thought it better to invite him to post it himself. Anyway, he has declined to do so and has suddenly gone quiet.

Update: He has just pm'd me again to inform me that I am now on his ignore list - thank you Kitwe, I won't have to receive any more of your bile in my inbox.

Update: Kitwe has since continued sending me puerile PMs, so clearly he has not really put me on his ignore list. Kitwe, you claim to be an RAF officer with 39 years service - if this is true, perhaps you could uphold the standards expected of an RAF officer and refrain from sending me gratuitous insults? I find it ironic that you complained to the moderators about me when I considered posting one of your PMs here. If you are too ashamed of what you are sending me to countenance seeing them published, then please just desist.