"We are the best equipped armed forces in our history"

[NutLoose]

Quoting Gordon Brown tonight, who says he is quoting the the Chief of the Defence staff..

http://whatdidyoubringme.homestead.com/files/Tshirts/Mammal/images_mtn/BarkAtTheMoon2252.jpg

Thanks Flying Lawyer, ammended accordingly


FWIW(?), he claimed to be quoting the CDS, not CAS:

[Guzlin Adnams]

Richard Cranium...

[Herc-u-lease]

define "best equipped"

does that mean we've got the most technologically advanced kit we've ever had?

in that case we're better equipped than WWII


and last year

[Gainesy]

Well, compared to er... erm... Horsham Brownies, yer can't fault the man. :ugh:

Had he had his meds?:}

[Duncan D'Sorderlee]

...except for ASW, Maritime Surveillance and long range SAR...

Duncs:ok:

[Mr C Hinecap]

I'd say that the majority of the Armed Forces are the best equipped they have ever been (there is an Army out there you know). I'd say the equipment is mostly the best at what it does, compared to what went before. I'd say you could argue capabilities, but what is there is mostly good.

[Senior Pilot]

In the words of Mandy Rice-Davies:

Well, he would, wouldn't he?

:ugh:

[Flying Lawyer]

Quoting Gordon Brown tonight, who says he is quoting the the chief of the air staff..
FWIW(?), he claimed to be quoting the CDS, not CAS: "I would say, with the chief of the defence staff, who said himself we are the best-equipped armed forces in our history as a result of the action we have taken.
I'm not complacent. I want to do more. But we have put the helicopters in. We have put the vehicles in. And we are giving our troops the equipment we need."

[Wensleydale]

I will admit that we are well equipped. Sadly, the majority of that equipment is either unserviceable or unsupported due to financial constraints and undermanning.:ugh::{

[Blacksheep]

How would today's British armed forces be measured against the British armed forces of, say, the sixties, that were designed to hold the front line in Germany? It isn't just the equipment, numbers count too, but most importantly it is what the force is designed to achieve. In the case of foreign intervention or Global Policing as the politicians prefer to call it, there's simply no substitute for overwhelming numbers. Irregular forces are impossible to counter by direct military action; it takes overwhelming numbers to hold the ground and control movement (as in Malaya) while the politicians work out the long term solution. Put the same number of men who swarmed ashore on D-Day into Afghanistan, even with the same equipment, and we might see a result. :hmm:

[cornish-stormrider]

I soooo wanted to bitch-slap the lying git.
How he could stand there and spout such nonsense beggars belief.

I would declare my support for young Nicky BUT when Ee said about not replacing the Bomber and wouldn't say they would have some sort of Sunshine Delivery system - for to make you glow in the dark, I got a bit worried.

Sorry, Thread drift. I still wanted to slap Incapability. I'm sure he means well (on most things) but he is out of his depth, awol, adrift, slack and useless.

[vecvechookattack]

I soooo wanted to bitch-slap the lying git.


Your wish is granted


Slapometer (http://www.slapometer.com/)

Excellent fun during the debate. Nancyboy Cameron got a real slapping....

[Jabba_TG12]

Anyone who believes a word of it is a mug.

As for the CDS.... the less said about that jellyback, the better.

[dallas]

Compared to wearing my soup bowl steel helmet and wedgewood blue shirt with putees and carrying little more than a respirator and a SLR, yes, I was better equipped in the latter years of my RAF career. In fact people are over-equipped sometimes when reissued the same stuff for consecutive Gulf tours - stuff they have to be issued again to avoid 'lack of kit' political embarrassment. But that's personal kit.

At the same time I was cradling my SLR, the same Tristars and VC10s were in the sky and peripheral projects like misdirected computer projects were in their infancy. Since then we've learned very little, continue to flog the same knackered aircraft (the principle difference being they spend more time on the ground), and inadequate computer systems have become commonplace.

[BEagle]

Are you some embittered working class oik who has a genetic dislike of Tory politicians, vechookvecwhatever?

Anyone who has heard David Cameron speak to a public audience, unprompted and without notes, cannot fail to be impressed by his passion, drive and enthusiasm. Something which this country really needs.

The abomination of nuLabor must be consigned to the rubbisn bin of history - we need the fresh start which Cameron will provide.

[gijoe]

As someone said above, personal kit has never been better.

Boots that fit, UBACs, body armour that does the job...even a natty little mug which was redsigned when it was suggested that the handle stopped it from fitting in a pocket! The SA80 A2 and click on bits and pieces is excellent. 5.56 rather than 7.62 but that is a different debate.

The large capital items probably need a little more thinking about. AT...umm....SH....umm.....Brown is treading a fine line here and I perceive that the very evident 'stitching up of the next Government' that was going on a few months back may have ceased temporarily as NuOldLabour have got a small sniff of another victory.

I hope not.

BEagle has it right about Cameron - he is a very, very impressive speaker and he may fair better in the next TV debate if not in the middle. Stick Brown in the middle and let the other two pincer him next time.

[vecvechookattack]

Cameron showed his true colours last night. He was a mere boy amongst men. He fluffed his way through the questions - unable to create a coherent
answer with out Mandy prompting him, his make-up made his smirky grin look mean and evil and his policies were frankly laughable. He had now answer to Gordon Browns comment's regarding Police funding, he couldn't even "agree with Nick".
The Bullingdon boy blew it last night and has some serious ground to make up before the next debate. Maybe he should go and visit his puppet master,Lord Ashcroft for some top tips. But the one aspect of the Tory defence policy that alarms me is the 25% cut in the running of the MOD. That is too much and will result in serious redundancies throughout the services.

[Blacksheep]

Are you some embittered working class oik who has a genetic dislike of Tory politicians, vechookvecwhatever?You have your answer, Beags.

As for me, I'm a "working class oik" who spends his evenings tramping round the constituency, knocking on doors, talking to people, introducing them to their MP whenever they have serious questions and generally trying my hardest to ensure that Gordon Brown moves on to more suitable employment. Don't knock we working class oiks, everyone knows its the Sergeants who get everything done. ;)

[Neptunus Rex]

First spoken by a Russian officer at Sevastopol (Crimean War.)
Since reiterated by many a foe.
Now as true as ever:

"Lions led by donkeys!"

Plus ça change.....

Alors!

[Neptunus Rex]

Onya Blacksheep!

One is hard pressed to think of 'suitable employment' for Broon, who gives a whole new meaning to the word 'dour.'

Answers on a postcard please.

[BEagle]

Onya indeed, Blacksheep.

I apologise. 'Working Class' and 'oik' are certainly not synonomous. I was referring to those died-in-the-wool idiots who mumble about "Only Labour understands us working men - them soft toffs haven't a clue" - the I-vote-Labour-'cos-me-Dad-did-an'-is-Dad-before-him types who vote for Labour out of some historical prejudice rather than because of policies.

[Mr C Hinecap]

Boots that fit, UBACs, body armour that does the job...even a natty little mug which was redsigned when it was suggested that the handle stopped it from fitting in a pocket! The SA80 A2 and click on bits and pieces is excellent. 5.56 rather than 7.62 but that is a different debate.


The majority of the Armed Forces don't use much more than that on a daily basis. I can safely say they are better equipped and far more effective than any that went before them.

[Roadster280]

Some of the best kit in the world.

MRA4 will be undoubtably the best platform of its type. Sadly though, it isn't in service, and there will be only nine of them to replace an original fleet of 30 odd.

Daring class destroyer is undoubtably fabulous, but there's only going to be 6 of them, and half of its systems aren't yet operational.

A couple of very expensive aircraft carriers taking 15 years to field. Meanwhile, two of the 30 year old small ones carry on and the third is left to rot.

AT is a running joke. Or would be, if it wasn't so serious. No A330s, No A400Ms, no attrition Js, but C-17s doing ok. Ks, T* and VC10 really aren't the best equipment in the world.

Pumas being bought secondhand and rebuilt. Some are my age!

Merlins being bought secondhand. Then going thirdhand to RN, while they keep their 20 year old Mk 1s, to put on the ever decreasing frigate and destroyer fleet.

Got some cracking mugs though, a newish logo for the RAF, and even a refurbished HQ.

[TheSmiter]

I didn't watch the so called 'prime time Drama' last night. I would prefer the country to be led by a leader, not a nervous actor.

If what Gordy said is true, then you have to admire his chutzpah. It takes great political skill to make a statement which sounds feasible to the great unwashed and is hard to disprove, while at the same time ignoring the fundamental problems for Defence as a whole.

I gather that the boy Clegg did rather well in the eyes of the viewing public. Well, bravo! Let him have a shot at running the country. We're screwed whoever takes on the mantle, but if it wasn't so serious it would be priceless to see his face on May 7th after a Limp Deb victory.


OMG, now what do I do?


Many years ago when I was 'In the Office of Constable' administering Laura Norder in the style of Gene Hunt (well, not quite, but I knew a few who did), it was often said that the public got the Police Force they deserved. I think you can now stretch that saying to the country and the party it's going to elect.

Do what you want Nick, Gordy or Dave, just don't mess with my pension.

[minigundiplomat]

Best equipped, very probably. Best resourced, absolutely not.

They may sound the same but are very, very different.

[Gainesy]

MGD,
Hammer, n...
Er, we appear to have a shortfall of nails, sorry.

[Finnpog]

Having the bestest shiny thing on the face of the planet is all well and good.

It might even be stretched to say that we are the best equipped in terms of shiny things by having the bestest in the world.

It is all a load of cobblers though when you need 10 shiny things and you only have that single one.:ugh:

[barnstormer1968]

I was shocked to read that one of you could have faced the Russians in nothing but a rubber mask, blue shirt, puttees and boots....You would have looked fearsome...unless it was a cold day, in which case the lack of pants and trousers would not have been an advantage!:}

While the SA80A2 is far better than before it was re-made for the umpteenth time, the post saying it was more effective than earlier weapons must surely be a joke, which is why we have just bought a stack of lovely 7.62 weapons for front line use.

The piece of kit that intrigues me the most though, is the new mug, as I have not seen this nice sounding bit of kit. Having always been a wearer of webbing, I always carried a trusty '58 mug (but used a green one instead of the common black ones, as I thought it was more stylish).

Does anyone have a piccy to satisfy my curiousity:ok:

[UAV689]

I was quite disapointed to see the lack of debate, the constant interuption after 60 seconds.

If I was up there Broon would have been layed into. Perhaps the other 2 have no idea what state the forces are in either.

Why was there no mention of taking us into iraq on false lies?
Or why are the troops out in some god for saken s**t hole that does not want to be saved under the continual war on terror banner when the last lot of attacks were home grown nationals, and sending them out there without the correct equipment? How about the chinooks sitting in the hanger brand spanking new?
Or what about the insult to the military when he apointed one man to oversee the military and scotland whilst we were at war! what bigger insult!
How about how many airbases are now closing? how aged is the AT fleet? why is so much of the military no contracted out? Or a perfectly good fighter being ditched and using ground attack harriers to protect the fleet? The massive delays to everything labour touches? A lack of ASW and long range SAR cover? What aircraft is going to come looking for you broon if your BA holiday jet goes down in atlantic whilst your on your way crawling to the US? Perhaps we will ask the french to fish you out.

I actually think I damaged my TV throwing everything to hand at that lying idiot.

The trouble is, I actually think that the military is a pain for all parties. No one wants one. The public dont understand what capabilities we have, what aircraft, what vessels and how many infantry. So as long as there is a general ignorance with Joe Public as to what we can and cant do, they will get away with quite literally...murder. Of our own sterling troops.

Some of the blame must not just go to the helicopter hating jock, it must also lie at the leaders of the services. STAND UP AND SHOUT!! this is the time! now! Tell the country what you need, what the shortfalls are! Let people know what goverment has done in the last 13 years. Do you ever see R Reg cars on the road? yes, do you ever see R Reg police cars? Never. Imagine the up roar the upper police ranks would say if they got their equipment cut! Unfortunately the public only sees what is in front of them. There is no direct threat to this nation getting invaded at present (apart from the maggots at calais that hide under lorries) so people dont think about the military. Of course during the world wars everyone knew about the forces, and in the cold war. Because it was at the forefront of peoples minds. Service leaders stand up and shout! Its your duty. The public doesnt know enough to argue with Broon when he says we are the best, they accept it. Its up to you also to make a stand and be heard. It would probably help your careers, so dont be scared.

One other thing - was Clegg hurt as a child by a submarine or something? He really doesnt like them.

I think the current world wide situation could be simmering for global conflict. Future resource wars, what is China going to do when it begins to run out of resources to feed its billions and with the biggest army in the world sitting around twidling thier thumbs, they will go marching looking for food/oil.

A serious review is needed. What is needed now, tomorrow, and in 20 years. All parties have to agree, for we will all suffer the consequences. A proper debate.

Get this fixed before its to late.

[NutLoose]

Oddly enough I Listened to Browns b*llsh*t and I thought of Hitler,

He had the Tiger and the Panthers, the best and the most sophisticated Tanks in the world, oddly enough when it came up against the hundreds and hundreds of Russian T34's flooding across the lines the best equiped but numerically inferior tanks came to nought.

A lesson that seems to have been lost, to build and throw £1,000,000 vehicles into the fray no matter how good they are, the fact they can be defeated by a man with a $100 RPG or a IED sums it up, I don't want to sound negative, but when you see a column of troop carriers worth Millions literally reduced to a traffic jam as a man walks out in front with a mine detector, it does make you wonder.

[mr fish]

just a nitpick,

what bright spark ok'd the purchase of the "pretend maglight's" known as STREAMLIGHTS??

24 hour charge for (if your lucky) 10 minutes of illumination, and they ONLY cost £150 quid.

get a better torch at WILCO'S!!!

[clunckdriver]

NutLose, to quote Stalin, "Quantity has a quality of its own", he sure got that right, I just got the greatest kick out of the AN2 war games,{which I proposed and got a blast for doing so} lets see now, the other side have 17,000 AN2 Bipes, they put twenty good troops in each and head East, we shoot down 2,000 and then we are out of ammo and other stuff to shoot at them, they then have 300,000 troops behind our front lines shooting up everything from the NAFFI to our airfields , and hopefully a few HQ, but we would be OK in Canada as Transport Canada only allows four pax in an AN2[ cant have the price of DH Beavers collapsing you know}

[Whenurhappy]

Just a note of fact. All three parties have signed up to conducting a Future Defence Review in the Autumn, presaged by the table setting of the Green paper, published a few weeks back. I gather there is already a lot of effort in town focussed on the SDR. The Conservatives want to conduct a full Foreign Policy, Secuirty and Defence Review (which is logical) however that is an enormous task, so the focus will be largely on the role of the Services.

[Gnd]

If there is an SDR and we are drawn out of Stan in 15/16 - what then, how much should we spend, what do we REALLY need. If we get that answered correctly, we have a chance?

[Sgt.Slabber]

JUST NOT PAID FOR BY THE FEKKIN GOVERNMENT............

SAS in body armour 'private funding' row - Telegraph (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/newstopics/onthefrontline/7601880/SAS-in-body-armour-private-funding-row.html)

[tucumseh]

Sgt S

I'm afraid this is nothing new. It is formal policy to require troops to buy certain kit - not "Gucci" stuff but what I'd call core equipment. I recall one SO1 who, about to retire, tried to sneak a Business Case past the beancounters that all troops should be refunded for kit they had to buy. Didn't work! No-one above him would support him. Mess funds pay for a lot, bolstered by well-heeled TA officers. I know one unit who were routinely provided with free kit by a company "up North"; this originated because DLO bought them radios but refused to buy them antennae. I think the CO knew the company MD. I was standing beside another CO once when he got an exited call from his signaller - he'd found just what they needed at a boot sale, if he coughed up would Regimental funds do the business. It needs someone very senior to make a stand while still serving.

[NP20]

Are you some embittered working class oik who has a genetic dislike of Tory politicians, vechookvecwhatever?

Anyone who has heard David Cameron speak to a public audience, unprompted and without notes, cannot fail to be impressed by his passion, drive and enthusiasm. Something which this country really needs.

& roll his sleeves up as though he is ready to start getting to work. You do realise that Dave has modelled himself on Tony - don't you?

I was referring to those died-in-the-wool idiots who mumble about "Only Labour understands us working men - them soft toffs haven't a clue" - the I-vote-Labour-'cos-me-Dad-did-an'-is-Dad-before-him types who vote for Labour out of some historical prejudice rather than because of policies.

How are you different from those who vote Conservative because of their 'public school - privileged - silver spoon - insert other pre-conception here' types?

Me? I believe that society functions best when we are all in it together. We should increase inheritance tax, as our achievement & hard work has already given 'Junior' a great start in life (don't take my word for it, look up Warren Buffet & Bill Gates' view on the subject). That way 'Junior' works hard to make a success for himself & thus the rest of the economy, instead of believing that he is entitled to large bonuses just because he is at the top of a 'possibly' failing company. That may make me a rose tinted dreamer, but as JK Galbraith put it:

"The modern conservative is engaged in one of man's oldest exercises in moral philosophy; that is, the search for a superior moral justification for selfishness."

That's conservative with a small 'c' obviously, but I think I know where you are coming from...

[Whenurhappy]

Tucumseh and Sgt S,

I can't recall in the RAF when operational equipment has been purchased out of non-public funds or other private sources, and I would like to hear of instances when this has happened.

Within the RAF NPF (sorry, Service Funds) are used to purchase additional goodies - eg additional call time at Christmas etc -for personnel in theatre and to fund activities for spouses and ankle biters 'who also serve who stand and wait'. Similarly, troops have always had a healthy mis-trust for issued kit - sometimes for good reason - so for a long time guys and girsl have bought their own GPS rx, for example, but as a nice to have and not a necessity.

However, it is a dangerous step for units (especially volunteer/TA units) to purchase their own kit 'cos they can't get it from 'DLO'. Firstly, it smacks of slack staff work from the unit QM/Supply manager and the Command Chain; secondly it disguises equipment deficiencies (Sorry, I simply don't believe that 'DLO' refused to buy AE for new radios - more likely they were a separate line item and weren't indented separately at unit level); thirdly there would be no in Service/in Theatre from the ES community.

No, I'm not a supplier, but I have seen how the DE&S community - including and especially the contractors - has pulled out all the stops over the last few years to support current ops - evidenced by the extremely rapid (and generally sucessful) UOR process. Clearly there is more behind the Artists' Rifles stories (eg wtf was the Army Benevolent Fund and the unit Welfare Officers doing?). Additionally DSF has a very direct call on funding...